can you provide ANY evidence that W lied? any evidence that his evidence was different from russia's, france's, the uk, etc?
When you cherrypick the intel, throw out any relevant documentation that hinders your case for war, and then out someone's CIA wife to spite them... that, to me anyway, is lying.
Make your life a mission - not an intermission. - Arnold Gasglow
and if he was leading a crusade to put scarlet letters on women who cheated while he had affaris on his wife, id be equally outraged. the point is not that his behavior is bad. the point is that he condemns and encourages hatred towards people who are no different than him.
it is the same as rush limbaugh advocating throwing drug addicts in jail forever... unless, of course, they're rush limbaugh, in which case it's just a tragic problem deserving mercy and treatment. all those black guys in the ghetto though... they CHOSE to become addicts and they're all just fucking criminals right?
Exactly.
Also, his choice of words "sexual immorality" suggests to me that actually lying and cheating on his wife was the least of his concerns.
Cause you know, sinning against god and "nature" is far worse than hurting another person :rolleyes:
... and the will to show I will always be better than before.
this thread is a classic example of how the right keeps power....it starts out as a thread discussing the hypocracy of one of the Rights big wigs, someone close to bushy and white house....a gay, meth-using, lying ass...and turns into a Clinton and WMD discussion...
nice work...
back to topic: I think is amusing when the self-righteous, "I'm better that you" types, fall flat on there faces...with that said, I feel sorry for his family...
I've always suspected that those who fight the hardest against something tend to have that very something within them, in this case, the man was gay, he hated that fact, and did everything he could to fight it, rather that accept it...
I've always suspected that those who fight the hardest against something tend to have that very something within them, in this case, the man was gay, he hated that fact, and did everything he could to fight it, rather that accept it...
i think basically these people are cowards. they're afraid to stand up for who they are when they know it will have some blowback in their community. honestly, id be afraid to come out if i lived in alabama or texas too. so they go over the top to assert their "manliness" and hide their secret doubts. most of these people probably aren't gay, but the one day they have a thought about it it freaks them out and suddenly it's all those gay people wanting to be accepted for it who are at fault for putting that idea in their minds. so they fight against them, as revenge and out of jealousy that those folks can publicly admit to things they're afraid to admit even to themselves.
That's exactly what went through my head when I read it. Dark and repulsive? I think him thinking it's dark and repulsive is in fact, dark and repulsive.
He has to be so filled with self loathing and hate to say that being homosexual is dark and repulsive.
He's a said and pathetic man and gays should just ignore his sick ass.
~*~Me and Hippiemom dranketh the red wine in Cleveland 2003~*~
First PJ Show: March 20, 1994 | Ann Arbor | Crisler Arena
and if he was leading a crusade to put scarlet letters on women who cheated while he had affaris on his wife, id be equally outraged. the point is not that his behavior is bad. the point is that he condemns and encourages hatred towards people who are no different than him.
He encourages hatred? Can you document that?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
he encourages a bigoted fear and disgust towards gay people, which leads to acts of hate against those gay people. case in point: matthew shepard (i think that was his name).
martin luther king wrote in "letter from a birmingham jail" that those who tacitly accept injustice encourage its perpetuation. this guy more than tacitly accepted, he worked hard to make it clear that gay people should be ashamed of themselves (even his "apology" carries this message) and should be publicly condemned for their behavior. this is one step removed from people who act upon such messages in a violent way to "teach the gays a lesson," and if their fellows condemned their acts of violence instead of spouting rhetoric that reinforces their hatred by carrying a message that such people deserve condemnation and repression, these people would be restrained the same way the KKK has been.
im not sure what kind of documentation you're looking for. you're not stupid. maybe this guy didn't kill anyone, but his message clearly lends strength and comfort to those inclined to try to rationalize violence of this sort. to me, that's encouraging hate.
how about what he did with paula jones? again, sexual harassment isn't a big deal to you?
Hate to jump in here, but actually, Paula Jones' claim was thrown out of court by the judge. Her lawsuit got dismissed on summary judgment. On summary judgment, the judge assumed everything that Jones said was true -- that she went to his room, he dropped his pants and asked for a blow job, she refused, and she left.
That doesn't mean that she actually PROVED it to a jury or anything. Just for purposes of the motion, the judge ASSUMES it's true.
Then, the judge asks herself "would she win if she went to a jury? Is this actually sexual harassment?" And the answer to that question was no. And the reason that this WASN'T sexual harassment was that it didn't happen over and over again. (Yep -- shocking, I know.)
Clinton settled the case because she was going to appeal -- even though most experts agreed that Jones was going to lose, but she had lots of high-priced lawyers funding her case.
Clinton's a pig -- no doubt. But are we honestly arguing that it was a worthwhile use of this country's resources to impeach him and try him for lying in a deposition in a private lawsuit that should never have gone forward in the first place?
"Things will just get better and better even though it
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
Wait minute people practice what you preach or don't preach. Either God hates homosexuality or God doesn't. Either God condemns it as a sin or it is not a sin. Stop making excuses because of a person's job or political affiliation or because he chose to get married and lie before God.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
he encourages a bigoted fear and disgust towards gay people, which leads to acts of hate against those gay people. case in point: matthew shepard (i think that was his name).
martin luther king wrote in "letter from a birmingham jail" that those who tacitly accept injustice encourage its perpetuation. this guy more than tacitly accepted, he worked hard to make it clear that gay people should be ashamed of themselves (even his "apology" carries this message) and should be publicly condemned for their behavior. this is one step removed from people who act upon such messages in a violent way to "teach the gays a lesson," and if their fellows condemned their acts of violence instead of spouting rhetoric that reinforces their hatred by carrying a message that such people deserve condemnation and repression, these people would be restrained the same way the KKK has been.
im not sure what kind of documentation you're looking for. you're not stupid. maybe this guy didn't kill anyone, but his message clearly lends strength and comfort to those inclined to try to rationalize violence of this sort. to me, that's encouraging hate.
You're reaching there by a long stretch. There's a big difference between saying an act is sinful and actually telling people to hate or hurt others. Heck, by the church's standards we're ALL sinners, and our sins aren't worse than that of homosexuality, but would you say that the church preaches hatred against those who are jealous?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Bottom line... this guy is just one in a long line of fuckers that use the pulpit and lie about things... Jim and Tammy Baker, Jimmy Swagert, Robert Schuller, Oral Roberts, Benny Hinn, Tony and Susan Alamo and all of those alter boy molesting priests. Because of the track record of these people... it leads me towards the belief tha Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are cut from the same cloth... but, they just have a better method of hiding their truths.
...
I'm saddened by the people who have fell for this stuff. I'm pretty certain that they retain their underlying faith in the Religion as a whole... but, as long as they keep filling the pockets and bank accounts of these mass media 'religious leaders'... well, that's their call to make. Maybe they are better people than me... I would cast a jaundiced eye at them and search for Jesus on my own.
Which, I already have chosen to do.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm saddened by the people who have fell for this stuff. I'm pretty certain that they retain their underlying faith in the Religion as a whole... but, as long as they keep filling the pockets and bank accounts of these mass media 'religious leaders'... well, that's their call to make. Maybe they are better people than me... I would cast a jaundiced eye at them and search for Jesus on my own. Which, I already have chosen to do.
So why didn't you fall for it?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
You're reaching there by a long stretch. There's a big difference between saying an act is sinful and actually telling people to hate or hurt others. Heck, by the church's standards we're ALL sinners, and our sins aren't worse than that of homosexuality, but would you say that the church preaches hatred against those who are jealous?
the church does not have actively repressive campaigns against jealousy like this guy launched against homosexuality.
you tell me what your definition of hatred would be and ill tell you how he fulfills it. i dont believe hitler ever said to the german people "we're going to round up all the jews and kill them." what he did do was convince anyone listening that the jews were evil and were responsible for the decay of german society and used it as an excuse to oppress them. granted, hitler went one further in rounding them up and killing them. this guy might have if he had the power, we don't know. the point is not the guy's personal actions or beliefs, the point is what views and beliefs he is trying to instill upon those who see him as a leader. while most germans did not want to kill jews on a mass scale, they did come to hate and mistrust them under the nazi regime. thus the analogy is applicable. this guy, by his rhetoric, is using the same tactics to condemn homosexuals that hitler used to stir up sentiments against the jews prior to world war 2 (long BEFORE the holocaust became reality). this does not mean they will all go out and kill gay people. but if your only barometer of hatred is physical violence, you have a very distorted worldview indeed. you do not have to say "hate these people" to encourage hatred of them. you only have to convince people that that group is different and disgusting and threatening. the hate will follow. this guy knew it and exploited it.
he convinced his congregation that queers are evil and different and that this "sexual immorality" is destroying our society (do you recall falwell's comments that america deserved 9/11 becos we accept gays? these guys are partners in this crusade). he then uses it as an excuse to oppress homosexuals, by denying them equal rights (wont even accept civil unions as alternative to marriage) and supporting things like sodomy laws. no, he never said "go out and kill homos." but he is encouraging that kind of belief and behavior.
...
Because I'm pretty good at spotting bullshit. And I understand that the books that religions (all religions) are based upon were not handed down from God... they were written by Men. And Men... and women... are often times, bullshitters. I'm not going to take thier word on faith.
I didn't fall for it because i question what they tell me... i don't trust Man... Man created religion... I don't trust religion.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Because I'm pretty good at spotting bullshit. And I understand that the books that religions (all religions) are based upon were not handed down from God... they were written by Men. And Men... and women... are often times, bullshitters. I'm not going to take thier word on faith.
I didn't fall for it because i question what they tell me... i don't trust Man... Man created religion... I don't trust religion.
You're a man. Raised as one, I assume. Can you trust yourself? You yourself are man made.
You're a man. Raised as one, I assume. Can you trust yourself? You yourself are man made.
...
The difference being... I'm living my life for me. I'm not telling you, or anyone else, how you're supposed to live yours. That should be up to you to decide.
Right?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
The difference being... I'm living my life for me. I'm not telling you, or anyone else, how you're supposed to live yours. That should be up to you to decide.
Right?
I live my life for me and my family. More for my family than for me, truth be told. Its tough to find balance. Most religions arent the type that shove shit down your throat. Most are there for guidance, and those who are LOOKING for that guidance can find it there. Not everyone seems to have all the answers, and if you do, as you seem to think, perhaps you could share. Ya know, float back down, cause you want to share, the keys to the locks of the chains you see everywhere.
I live my life for me and my family. More for my family than for me, truth be told. Its tough to find balance. Most religions arent the type that shove shit down your throat. Most are there for guidance, and those who are LOOKING for that guidance can find it there. Not everyone seems to have all the answers, and if you do, as you seem to think, perhaps you could share. Ya know, float back down, cause you want to share, the keys to the locks of the chains you see everywhere.
...
I have never once stated that I know the answers... I only know that I don't know. The one thing I DO know is that no one else has the answers. People who tell me, in no uncertain terms, that they KNOW they are going to Heaven... or that they KNOW there even IS a Heaven... they are bullshitting me. I know they don't know... they BELIEVE they know and it becomes their truth... which, is fine by me, but, their truth does not apply to me.
The answers that Religion have given me don't fly, either. I view them as the institutionalized interpretations of set doctrines... depending upon which man (Church Founder) you wish to follow.
I decided a long time ago to skip past the filters of religion and try to understand God on His terms. Why are there so many religions for the same God? They all claim to be the right one to choose... does that negate the others?
I'll go out on my own... I don't expect, nor have I ever expected anyone else to take anything I beleive as their own. If you find solice in the religion of your birth... or the religion of your choice... more power to you. But, thanx.... no thanx for me. I do not believe in placing my faith in someone who believe they know the truth and would rather look for it myself. That is why I'm seeking the answers on my own. I know that I will probably never find what I'm looking for... but, at least I know I will not find it anywhere in Man's creation.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
I do not believe in placing my faith in someone who believe they know the truth and would rather look for it myself. That is why I'm seeking the answers on my own. I know that I will probably never find what I'm looking for... but, at least I know I will not find it anywhere in Man's creation.
where do you look then? It seems you want to find God or want to find something yet if it can be traced back to man in any way then you can't accept it. That seems like a tough challenge to look but not to seek from man. I agree with an earlier entry in your post about not placing faith in man...you shouldn't place your faith in man; they will let you down. I think the haggard thing is a perfect example. Haggard was put on a pedastal by many and Haggard let them down in a huge way. If the people had faith in Haggard they are crushed...if they have faith in God, they recognize that what he did was terrible and that he needs to be held accountable, but they realize that God didn't let them down...haggard did. At some point though if you're looking for something, whatever that is will become apparent to you...but what happens when you want to learn more about it? At some point you will almost certainly have to seek guidance from someone (be it yourself or from others with whom you agree). And I agree that man has definitely perversed religion and has used religion for bad. But remember look at what the ideal of the religion or belief system is and remember that everyone who takes part in that belief system no matter how good they may seem still are human and are capable of failure, and will fail...others bigger than some.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
the church does not have actively repressive campaigns against jealousy like this guy launched against homosexuality.
you tell me what your definition of hatred would be and ill tell you how he fulfills it. i dont believe hitler ever said to the german people "we're going to round up all the jews and kill them." what he did do was convince anyone listening that the jews were evil and were responsible for the decay of german society and used it as an excuse to oppress them. granted, hitler went one further in rounding them up and killing them. this guy might have if he had the power, we don't know. the point is not the guy's personal actions or beliefs, the point is what views and beliefs he is trying to instill upon those who see him as a leader. while most germans did not want to kill jews on a mass scale, they did come to hate and mistrust them under the nazi regime. thus the analogy is applicable. this guy, by his rhetoric, is using the same tactics to condemn homosexuals that hitler used to stir up sentiments against the jews prior to world war 2 (long BEFORE the holocaust became reality). this does not mean they will all go out and kill gay people. but if your only barometer of hatred is physical violence, you have a very distorted worldview indeed. you do not have to say "hate these people" to encourage hatred of them. you only have to convince people that that group is different and disgusting and threatening. the hate will follow. this guy knew it and exploited it.
he convinced his congregation that queers are evil and different and that this "sexual immorality" is destroying our society (do you recall falwell's comments that america deserved 9/11 becos we accept gays? these guys are partners in this crusade). he then uses it as an excuse to oppress homosexuals, by denying them equal rights (wont even accept civil unions as alternative to marriage) and supporting things like sodomy laws. no, he never said "go out and kill homos." but he is encouraging that kind of belief and behavior.
Again, I don't see where you're getting this. Can you document that he convinced them that gay people are "evil"? I haven't studied what this guy said or did or preached, but I find it hard to believe that he was saying they were evil and advocating violence.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
...
Because I'm pretty good at spotting bullshit. And I understand that the books that religions (all religions) are based upon were not handed down from God... they were written by Men. And Men... and women... are often times, bullshitters. I'm not going to take thier word on faith.
I didn't fall for it because i question what they tell me... i don't trust Man... Man created religion... I don't trust religion.
So if you were able to distinguish, why do you feel sorry for the members of the congregation? They have the opportunity to distinguish just like you.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
yah know, it's funny, everyone gets all crazy about this stuff because it's a church guy. So what, he's a church guy, he has secret fetishes or what ever.. he's not perfect, he's just like you and me.. he's real, he admitted shit..that's the funny part... he came right out and said that yes, I had a massage from the guy and bought crack or crystal meth or whatever he bought.. probably so he could see what life was like on the other side of god. at least he didnt try to hide it or make excuses... and if I remember some of my sunday school classes.. God loves all and does not judge.
and NO I am not some church freak pushing the lord on you all.. organized religion is just strange to me.
"“The fact is I am guilty of sexual immorality. And I take responsibility for the entire problem. I am a deceiver and a liar. There’s a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it for all of my adult life,” he said.
This is so sad. I rejoiced when he was caught, but now I feel nothing but pity. Repulsive and dark... The only thing that is repulsive and dark is the hatred he has for himself and others who engage in things to what most of us would not even object to.
"find the peace within your self..."
well said girlfriend ! put so much more eloquently then my jibberish crap.
where do you look then? It seems you want to find God or want to find something yet if it can be traced back to man in any way then you can't accept it. That seems like a tough challenge to look but not to seek from man. I agree with an earlier entry in your post about not placing faith in man...you shouldn't place your faith in man; they will let you down. I think the haggard thing is a perfect example. Haggard was put on a pedastal by many and Haggard let them down in a huge way. If the people had faith in Haggard they are crushed...if they have faith in God, they recognize that what he did was terrible and that he needs to be held accountable, but they realize that God didn't let them down...haggard did. At some point though if you're looking for something, whatever that is will become apparent to you...but what happens when you want to learn more about it? At some point you will almost certainly have to seek guidance from someone (be it yourself or from others with whom you agree). And I agree that man has definitely perversed religion and has used religion for bad. But remember look at what the ideal of the religion or belief system is and remember that everyone who takes part in that belief system no matter how good they may seem still are human and are capable of failure, and will fail...others bigger than some.
...
I can find answers in God's Universe... on this planet. I mean, just look at the Sunset tonight. THAT is God. No man can ever come close to creating something that beautiful.
I refuse to believe that the one God that can create a Sunset or the Sierras or the Pacific... can possess the petty judgements and exclusions on His creations. I believe those are human traits, projected onto God by Man. God is there for us... not a crutch to lean on, not a name to kill in.
I look in the Bible... because that is one of the only places you can look. But, I know God didn't write the Bible... Man did. All I can do is use what is recorded on the Bible as someone else's interpretation of who God is. To me, the church is merely someone else's interpretation of the original author's interpretation. I'm just cutting out that layer or filter. I try to take the Bible's writings into the context of its time and form my own interpretations. I believe God loves us, He knows how screwed up we are... I don't fear His wrath because I'm not doing anything that needs to be forgiven. If I kill someone during the commission of a bank robbery... then, yeah... I'll be worried.
And as for these preachers... like it or not, they wield influence on others. They use the people's faith, to get what they (the preachers) want... usually in the form of contributions in the donation plate... i.e. Oral Roberts, who claimed that a 90 foot tall Jesus said if he didn't raise 10 million dollars by a certain date, God was going to kill him. God does not commit extortion... leastwise, MY God doesn't.
You want to follow your church... none of my business. If what you are looking for can be found there... great... I'm happy for you. But, as for me... I looked there and didn't find it. It wasn't there for me to find.
So, where do I look? I don't know... but, that doesn't stop me from looking.
...
And look... I'm NOT preaching. I'm just telling you where I am. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from their religion... all I am saying is that your religion isn't necessarily for me.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
So if you were able to distinguish, why do you feel sorry for the members of the congregation? They have the opportunity to distinguish just like you.
...
Because they were lied to by someone they believed in... I feel bad for the people who freely gave their faith and believed his lies. Is that a bad thing in your eyes?
I wasn't in that position (as part of his church)... because I have seen the same type of bullshit in church... by its leaders and its followers. Which is why I don't belong to a church or religion.
Maybe, i'm just better at spotting bullshit when I hear it... that ain't my fault.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Again, I don't see where you're getting this. Can you document that he convinced them that gay people are "evil"? I haven't studied what this guy said or did or preached, but I find it hard to believe that he was saying they were evil and advocating violence.
apparently you weren't reading carefully. i specifically said he was not advocating violence, but that advocating violence is not a prerequisite for encouraging hatred. if you feel the only thing that shows hate is violence, then you have some issues. he does not have to say "go kill some fags" to be preaching hate.
i dont see what you're asking from me. again, what would you consider proof of hate? me, the fact that he attempts to make his disciples believe there is something wrong with gay people, that they are "other," that they are responsible for the decay and destruction of our society (all rhetoric hitler used to justify his discrimination against jews, gays, and gypsies) is enough to qualify his preaching as fostering and encouraging hatred of homosexuals.
...
I can find answers in God's Universe... on this planet. I mean, just look at the Sunset tonight. THAT is God. No man can ever come close to creating something that beautiful.
I refuse to believe that the one God that can create a Sunset or the Sierras or the Pacific... can possess the petty judgements and exclusions on His creations. I believe those are human traits, projected onto God by Man. God is there for us... not a crutch to lean on, not a name to kill in.
I look in the Bible... because that is one of the only places you can look. But, I know God didn't write the Bible... Man did. All I can do is use what is recorded on the Bible as someone else's interpretation of who God is. To me, the church is merely someone else's interpretation of the original author's interpretation. I'm just cutting out that layer or filter. I try to take the Bible's writings into the context of its time and form my own interpretations. I believe God loves us, He knows how screwed up we are... I don't fear His wrath because I'm not doing anything that needs to be forgiven. If I kill someone during the commission of a bank robbery... then, yeah... I'll be worried.
And as for these preachers... like it or not, they wield influence on others. They use the people's faith, to get what they (the preachers) want... usually in the form of contributions in the donation plate... i.e. Oral Roberts, who claimed that a 90 foot tall Jesus said if he didn't raise 10 million dollars by a certain date, God was going to kill him. God does not commit extortion... leastwise, MY God doesn't.
You want to follow your church... none of my business. If what you are looking for can be found there... great... I'm happy for you. But, as for me... I looked there and didn't find it. It wasn't there for me to find.
So, where do I look? I don't know... but, that doesn't stop me from looking.
...
And look... I'm NOT preaching. I'm just telling you where I am. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from their religion... all I am saying is that your religion isn't necessarily for me.
Thank you for the reply...it didn't come across as preachy, i was genuinely interested in the response and your thinking. Also, I hate the phrase religion for the reasons you state above...it seems religion always gets a bad name and gets distorted to fit an agenda.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
give me a break. this man is incapable of telling the truth... he made a living out of lying to people... then he lied about everything in these accusations, now he is lying about this "repulsive and dark" nonsence. the only repulsive and dark thing about this lowlife is that he fought for an idealism of hate for financial gain. he stole from the bigots, and ignorant by pretending to be someone he was not. a christian. someone opposed to the gay lifestyle..... like every other mega church leader he is simply selling a bill of goods. if he found a large enough congregation to pay him millions and give him political power for hating women, or children, or blondes, or people over 6'2 or kittens, or the obese, or amputees, or mailmen, or people who wear a mustache, or people with freckles.... he would find that group REPULSIVE AND DARK.it just so happens there is a weathy population of people that were willing to pay him to furthur the cause for hatred against gays.... so he played that role... he would attempt to amend the constitution to include hate against his own 5 children if there was a big enough payday. get back to your whore mr. christian, and get the fuck away from my constitution.
You remind me of that guy in the Green Mile, spewing out your cancer. Dude, you are always looking to hammer, spit, and swear. What is that? Are you angry? I almost never get passed your first sentence, just so you know.
Oh, and how come everyone who is condeming this guy for his false life and actions then wants to condemn him for his for admitting it and coming clean?? Makes no Effin sense to me, the guy is down as you wanted.
HOB 10.05.2005, E Rutherford 06.03.2006, The Gorge 07.22.2006, Lolla 08.05.2007, West Palm 06.11.2008, Tampa 06.12.2008, Columbia 06.16.2008, EV Memphis 06.20.2009, New Orleans 05.01.2010, Kansas City 05.03.2010
Comments
Make your life a mission - not an intermission. - Arnold Gasglow
Exactly.
Also, his choice of words "sexual immorality" suggests to me that actually lying and cheating on his wife was the least of his concerns.
Cause you know, sinning against god and "nature" is far worse than hurting another person :rolleyes:
nice work...
back to topic: I think is amusing when the self-righteous, "I'm better that you" types, fall flat on there faces...with that said, I feel sorry for his family...
I've always suspected that those who fight the hardest against something tend to have that very something within them, in this case, the man was gay, he hated that fact, and did everything he could to fight it, rather that accept it...
i think basically these people are cowards. they're afraid to stand up for who they are when they know it will have some blowback in their community. honestly, id be afraid to come out if i lived in alabama or texas too. so they go over the top to assert their "manliness" and hide their secret doubts. most of these people probably aren't gay, but the one day they have a thought about it it freaks them out and suddenly it's all those gay people wanting to be accepted for it who are at fault for putting that idea in their minds. so they fight against them, as revenge and out of jealousy that those folks can publicly admit to things they're afraid to admit even to themselves.
He has to be so filled with self loathing and hate to say that being homosexual is dark and repulsive.
He's a said and pathetic man and gays should just ignore his sick ass.
First PJ Show: March 20, 1994 | Ann Arbor | Crisler Arena
He encourages hatred? Can you document that?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
he encourages a bigoted fear and disgust towards gay people, which leads to acts of hate against those gay people. case in point: matthew shepard (i think that was his name).
martin luther king wrote in "letter from a birmingham jail" that those who tacitly accept injustice encourage its perpetuation. this guy more than tacitly accepted, he worked hard to make it clear that gay people should be ashamed of themselves (even his "apology" carries this message) and should be publicly condemned for their behavior. this is one step removed from people who act upon such messages in a violent way to "teach the gays a lesson," and if their fellows condemned their acts of violence instead of spouting rhetoric that reinforces their hatred by carrying a message that such people deserve condemnation and repression, these people would be restrained the same way the KKK has been.
im not sure what kind of documentation you're looking for. you're not stupid. maybe this guy didn't kill anyone, but his message clearly lends strength and comfort to those inclined to try to rationalize violence of this sort. to me, that's encouraging hate.
That doesn't mean that she actually PROVED it to a jury or anything. Just for purposes of the motion, the judge ASSUMES it's true.
Then, the judge asks herself "would she win if she went to a jury? Is this actually sexual harassment?" And the answer to that question was no. And the reason that this WASN'T sexual harassment was that it didn't happen over and over again. (Yep -- shocking, I know.)
Clinton settled the case because she was going to appeal -- even though most experts agreed that Jones was going to lose, but she had lots of high-priced lawyers funding her case.
Clinton's a pig -- no doubt. But are we honestly arguing that it was a worthwhile use of this country's resources to impeach him and try him for lying in a deposition in a private lawsuit that should never have gone forward in the first place?
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
-- EV, Live at the Showbox
Wait minute people practice what you preach or don't preach. Either God hates homosexuality or God doesn't. Either God condemns it as a sin or it is not a sin. Stop making excuses because of a person's job or political affiliation or because he chose to get married and lie before God.
You're reaching there by a long stretch. There's a big difference between saying an act is sinful and actually telling people to hate or hurt others. Heck, by the church's standards we're ALL sinners, and our sins aren't worse than that of homosexuality, but would you say that the church preaches hatred against those who are jealous?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
...
I'm saddened by the people who have fell for this stuff. I'm pretty certain that they retain their underlying faith in the Religion as a whole... but, as long as they keep filling the pockets and bank accounts of these mass media 'religious leaders'... well, that's their call to make. Maybe they are better people than me... I would cast a jaundiced eye at them and search for Jesus on my own.
Which, I already have chosen to do.
Hail, Hail!!!
So why didn't you fall for it?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
the church does not have actively repressive campaigns against jealousy like this guy launched against homosexuality.
you tell me what your definition of hatred would be and ill tell you how he fulfills it. i dont believe hitler ever said to the german people "we're going to round up all the jews and kill them." what he did do was convince anyone listening that the jews were evil and were responsible for the decay of german society and used it as an excuse to oppress them. granted, hitler went one further in rounding them up and killing them. this guy might have if he had the power, we don't know. the point is not the guy's personal actions or beliefs, the point is what views and beliefs he is trying to instill upon those who see him as a leader. while most germans did not want to kill jews on a mass scale, they did come to hate and mistrust them under the nazi regime. thus the analogy is applicable. this guy, by his rhetoric, is using the same tactics to condemn homosexuals that hitler used to stir up sentiments against the jews prior to world war 2 (long BEFORE the holocaust became reality). this does not mean they will all go out and kill gay people. but if your only barometer of hatred is physical violence, you have a very distorted worldview indeed. you do not have to say "hate these people" to encourage hatred of them. you only have to convince people that that group is different and disgusting and threatening. the hate will follow. this guy knew it and exploited it.
he convinced his congregation that queers are evil and different and that this "sexual immorality" is destroying our society (do you recall falwell's comments that america deserved 9/11 becos we accept gays? these guys are partners in this crusade). he then uses it as an excuse to oppress homosexuals, by denying them equal rights (wont even accept civil unions as alternative to marriage) and supporting things like sodomy laws. no, he never said "go out and kill homos." but he is encouraging that kind of belief and behavior.
Because I'm pretty good at spotting bullshit. And I understand that the books that religions (all religions) are based upon were not handed down from God... they were written by Men. And Men... and women... are often times, bullshitters. I'm not going to take thier word on faith.
I didn't fall for it because i question what they tell me... i don't trust Man... Man created religion... I don't trust religion.
Hail, Hail!!!
You're a man. Raised as one, I assume. Can you trust yourself? You yourself are man made.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
The difference being... I'm living my life for me. I'm not telling you, or anyone else, how you're supposed to live yours. That should be up to you to decide.
Right?
Hail, Hail!!!
I live my life for me and my family. More for my family than for me, truth be told. Its tough to find balance. Most religions arent the type that shove shit down your throat. Most are there for guidance, and those who are LOOKING for that guidance can find it there. Not everyone seems to have all the answers, and if you do, as you seem to think, perhaps you could share. Ya know, float back down, cause you want to share, the keys to the locks of the chains you see everywhere.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
I have never once stated that I know the answers... I only know that I don't know. The one thing I DO know is that no one else has the answers. People who tell me, in no uncertain terms, that they KNOW they are going to Heaven... or that they KNOW there even IS a Heaven... they are bullshitting me. I know they don't know... they BELIEVE they know and it becomes their truth... which, is fine by me, but, their truth does not apply to me.
The answers that Religion have given me don't fly, either. I view them as the institutionalized interpretations of set doctrines... depending upon which man (Church Founder) you wish to follow.
I decided a long time ago to skip past the filters of religion and try to understand God on His terms. Why are there so many religions for the same God? They all claim to be the right one to choose... does that negate the others?
I'll go out on my own... I don't expect, nor have I ever expected anyone else to take anything I beleive as their own. If you find solice in the religion of your birth... or the religion of your choice... more power to you. But, thanx.... no thanx for me. I do not believe in placing my faith in someone who believe they know the truth and would rather look for it myself. That is why I'm seeking the answers on my own. I know that I will probably never find what I'm looking for... but, at least I know I will not find it anywhere in Man's creation.
Hail, Hail!!!
where do you look then? It seems you want to find God or want to find something yet if it can be traced back to man in any way then you can't accept it. That seems like a tough challenge to look but not to seek from man. I agree with an earlier entry in your post about not placing faith in man...you shouldn't place your faith in man; they will let you down. I think the haggard thing is a perfect example. Haggard was put on a pedastal by many and Haggard let them down in a huge way. If the people had faith in Haggard they are crushed...if they have faith in God, they recognize that what he did was terrible and that he needs to be held accountable, but they realize that God didn't let them down...haggard did. At some point though if you're looking for something, whatever that is will become apparent to you...but what happens when you want to learn more about it? At some point you will almost certainly have to seek guidance from someone (be it yourself or from others with whom you agree). And I agree that man has definitely perversed religion and has used religion for bad. But remember look at what the ideal of the religion or belief system is and remember that everyone who takes part in that belief system no matter how good they may seem still are human and are capable of failure, and will fail...others bigger than some.
Again, I don't see where you're getting this. Can you document that he convinced them that gay people are "evil"? I haven't studied what this guy said or did or preached, but I find it hard to believe that he was saying they were evil and advocating violence.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
So if you were able to distinguish, why do you feel sorry for the members of the congregation? They have the opportunity to distinguish just like you.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
and NO I am not some church freak pushing the lord on you all.. organized religion is just strange to me.
well said girlfriend ! put so much more eloquently then my jibberish crap.
I can find answers in God's Universe... on this planet. I mean, just look at the Sunset tonight. THAT is God. No man can ever come close to creating something that beautiful.
I refuse to believe that the one God that can create a Sunset or the Sierras or the Pacific... can possess the petty judgements and exclusions on His creations. I believe those are human traits, projected onto God by Man. God is there for us... not a crutch to lean on, not a name to kill in.
I look in the Bible... because that is one of the only places you can look. But, I know God didn't write the Bible... Man did. All I can do is use what is recorded on the Bible as someone else's interpretation of who God is. To me, the church is merely someone else's interpretation of the original author's interpretation. I'm just cutting out that layer or filter. I try to take the Bible's writings into the context of its time and form my own interpretations. I believe God loves us, He knows how screwed up we are... I don't fear His wrath because I'm not doing anything that needs to be forgiven. If I kill someone during the commission of a bank robbery... then, yeah... I'll be worried.
And as for these preachers... like it or not, they wield influence on others. They use the people's faith, to get what they (the preachers) want... usually in the form of contributions in the donation plate... i.e. Oral Roberts, who claimed that a 90 foot tall Jesus said if he didn't raise 10 million dollars by a certain date, God was going to kill him. God does not commit extortion... leastwise, MY God doesn't.
You want to follow your church... none of my business. If what you are looking for can be found there... great... I'm happy for you. But, as for me... I looked there and didn't find it. It wasn't there for me to find.
So, where do I look? I don't know... but, that doesn't stop me from looking.
...
And look... I'm NOT preaching. I'm just telling you where I am. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from their religion... all I am saying is that your religion isn't necessarily for me.
Hail, Hail!!!
Because they were lied to by someone they believed in... I feel bad for the people who freely gave their faith and believed his lies. Is that a bad thing in your eyes?
I wasn't in that position (as part of his church)... because I have seen the same type of bullshit in church... by its leaders and its followers. Which is why I don't belong to a church or religion.
Maybe, i'm just better at spotting bullshit when I hear it... that ain't my fault.
Hail, Hail!!!
apparently you weren't reading carefully. i specifically said he was not advocating violence, but that advocating violence is not a prerequisite for encouraging hatred. if you feel the only thing that shows hate is violence, then you have some issues. he does not have to say "go kill some fags" to be preaching hate.
i dont see what you're asking from me. again, what would you consider proof of hate? me, the fact that he attempts to make his disciples believe there is something wrong with gay people, that they are "other," that they are responsible for the decay and destruction of our society (all rhetoric hitler used to justify his discrimination against jews, gays, and gypsies) is enough to qualify his preaching as fostering and encouraging hatred of homosexuals.
Thank you for the reply...it didn't come across as preachy, i was genuinely interested in the response and your thinking. Also, I hate the phrase religion for the reasons you state above...it seems religion always gets a bad name and gets distorted to fit an agenda.
You remind me of that guy in the Green Mile, spewing out your cancer. Dude, you are always looking to hammer, spit, and swear. What is that? Are you angry? I almost never get passed your first sentence, just so you know.
Oh, and how come everyone who is condeming this guy for his false life and actions then wants to condemn him for his for admitting it and coming clean?? Makes no Effin sense to me, the guy is down as you wanted.