I'm taking bets

2

Comments

  • Ms. HaikuMs. Haiku Washington DC Posts: 7,275
    gotcha. but i dont have the answers though. you cannot force good parenting and that is where this starts. colleges have gone overboard on diversity training, but you cannot prevent teens from forming cliques and dividing into the uncool and the cool. it's inevitable. there will always be downtrodden, the marginalized, the depressed and abused. it is sad, but unavoidable. what is needed is to make sure they have some sort of recourse besides grabbing a gun and getting even.
    Yes, but it's the simple concept: it takes a community to raise a child. So, parents are initially responsible until the child's an adult. However, throughout those years, a mindset has to be in place within the community that would support any child and parent through those years. I've never read books on this although they exist. However, it seems that the simple concept, although possibly complex to implement, is what has to be the mindset of a community in order to raise children who are less likely to become mass murderers. Just a theory.
    There is no such thing as leftover pizza. There is now pizza and later pizza. - anonymous
    The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    mammasan wrote:
    I agree. We shouldn't just rely on our teachers and parenst to spot warning signs. It has to be a community effort.
    But you can't force someone into therapy or rehab or into fitting into society.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    mammasan wrote:
    I think Che was reffering to the string of school shooting where the majority of the shooters where white males.
    If Che and others believe in the equality of sexes then he must believe that women are just as capable of this tyoe behavior. This is evidenced by the majority of child abuse being committed by the mother.

    Then to choose an incident involving an asian and hold white males accountable just makes no sense.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Ms. Haiku wrote:
    Yes, but it's the simple concept: it takes a community to raise a child. So, parents are initially responsible until the child's an adult. However, throughout those years, a mindset has to be in place within the community that would support any child and parent through those years. I've never read books on this. However, it seems that the simple concept, although possibly complex to implement, is what has to be the mindset of a community in order to raise children who are less likely to become mass murderers. Just a theory.

    i dont think that works in modern communities. america has become too isolated. i live in an apartment building in chicago. i've never once spoken to my neighbors, i dont think ive even seen most of them. we're too busy and now small talk from neighbors is an annoying waste of our time and slightly suspicious. in the suburbs, maybe you get a cursory wave in the morning, but by and large you do not talk to your neighbors. the american obsession with our house as our castle has turned our houses into our prisons. we're overworked and simply don't have time to deal with the people around us or get to know them.

    the legal profession is a perfect example of the shift. used to be lawyers were respected members of society, upstanding, giving, just men. they were heavily involved in communities. now, they work 80 hours a week and don't have time for pleasantries.

    communities are simply disintegrating. the more we are able to stay "connected" to people all over the world via email and phones and webcams, the more we ignore our next door neighbors. we are on call, on the job, 24/7 through blackberries. we are on the phone all the time with people we never see or trying to sort through bureaucracy. and in all this time consumed trying to stay "close" to people, we spend no time dealing with the people we see face to face every day.
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    surferdude wrote:
    But you can't force someone into therapy or rehab or into fitting into society.

    actually, you can force people into rehab and therapy. it's just hard to do. and harder to make it stick.
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    surferdude wrote:
    But you can't force someone into therapy or rehab or into fitting into society.

    If the person is deemed a danger to him/herself or others you can force them into therapy. Besides I'm not talking about making people fit a certain mold predetermined by society. If parents, teachers, school officials, friends, and/or other students start to notice a string of irrational behavior reporting it, instead of just brushing it off as the person being weird, can possible prevent these type of incidents.

    I'll tell you a story. When I was in high school we had a kid who was a bit on the strange side. No body thought anything of it. Till obe day a girl found his notebook on the floor, she didn't know who it belonged to and opened it to find out who the owner was. Inside this kid has drawing and stories of how he was going to brutally rape the captain of the girls basketball team. She handed over the to school and after some investigation they found that the kid had knives, sex toys, hand cuffs, and rope in the truck of his car along with pictures of the captain of the girls basketball team and her house. Now because of this one students vigilance she may have prevented harm from coming to another student or students.

    I;m not stating taht we put every kid who dresses different or acts different in therapy and make them conform to what is considered normal, but if a person is acting strangly look into it. It may be nothing but thern at least you have peace of mind.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Ms. HaikuMs. Haiku Washington DC Posts: 7,275
    i dont think that works in modern communities. america has become too isolated. i live in an apartment building in chicago. i've never once spoken to my neighbors, i dont think ive even seen most of them. we're too busy and now small talk from neighbors is an annoying waste of our time and slightly suspicious. in the suburbs, maybe you get a cursory wave in the morning, but by and large you do not talk to your neighbors. the american obsession with our house as our castle has turned our houses into our prisons. we're overworked and simply don't have time to deal with the people around us or get to know them.

    the legal profession is a perfect example of the shift. used to be lawyers were respected members of society, upstanding, giving, just men. they were heavily involved in communities. now, they work 80 hours a week and don't have time for pleasantries.

    communities are simply disintegrating. the more we are able to stay "connected" to people all over the world via email and phones and webcams, the more we ignore our next door neighbors. we are on call, on the job, 24/7 through blackberries. we are on the phone all the time with people we never see or trying to sort through bureaucracy. and in all this time consumed trying to stay "close" to people, we spend no time dealing with the people we see face to face every day.
    Yes, but this isn't permanent.

    Actually, I think I'm more connected with people I wouldn't have been since the internet. The community is redefined, and can include people one hasn't met in person.

    Ok, here's an example, kindof quirky, but bear with me. Say, PJ would like to start this type of mindset for just 1 minute. During a concert Eddie would say, "Ok, every person in an odd-numbered seat turn to your left, and every person in an even numbered seat turn to your right. Say "HI" you can say your name if you want, but at least say HI. Next everyone in an odd numbered seat turn to your right, and everyone in an even numbered seat turn to your left. Say "HI", you can say your name if you want, but at least say HI. Ok, on with the concert . . . It may seem forced, big-brothering, etc, but ultimately, it's just a hello.

    Not too hard, eh?
    There is no such thing as leftover pizza. There is now pizza and later pizza. - anonymous
    The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    surferdude wrote:
    If Che and others believe in the equality of sexes then he must believe that women are just as capable of this tyoe behavior. This is evidenced by the majority of child abuse being committed by the mother.

    Then to choose an incident involving an asian and hold white males accountable just makes no sense.

    really? when was the last time a woman went on a shooting spree like this? males are quite simply more likely. adolescent males in particular... prone to wild surges of aggressive hormones.

    his point was, there are a lot of white men who are angry and lashing out. they feel invalidated. even on here, go to other music and read about the emo threads where punk snobs rail against how suburban kids have no problems and can't be sad.. you can only write or enjoy punk music if you're a poor kid with real problems. their emotions are ignored. their frustrations are denied. they have privileges, yes, but money cannot buy happiness. yet we ignore this... and we dont know what goes on behind those closed doors. they hear about urban plight, about how it is their fault that blacks are worse off, they are financially squeezed but not allowed to talk about it. they are slapped with sexual harassment if a girl doesn't like their come on, but are told they need to be more aggressive and confident to meet women. everywhere they go, they're given contradictions. and they're pissed and frustrated. so they snap, and stuff like this happens.
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    surferdude wrote:
    If Che and others believe in the equality of sexes then he must believe that women are just as capable of this tyoe behavior. This is evidenced by the majority of child abuse being committed by the mother.

    Then to choose an incident involving an asian and hold white males accountable just makes no sense.

    From my understanding of what he wrote I don't think he was trying to make whites accountable for the actions of this one student or even insidting that white males are the only ones capable of such acts.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • has anyone even bothered to place a bet yet? sigh..... :rolleyes:
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

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  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    surferdude wrote:
    If Che and others believe in the equality of sexes then he must believe that women are just as capable of this tyoe behavior. This is evidenced by the majority of child abuse being committed by the mother.

    Then to choose an incident involving an asian and hold white males accountable just makes no sense.
    They may be capable of it, but for whatever reason they're choosing not to do it. You just don't hear about females gunning people down by the dozens. It's exceedingly rare for a female to kill a single stranger, much less a huge group of them.

    I agree it didn't make much sense to single out white males after an incident in which an Asian male was the shooter.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Confucius says: Che need to find guitar with more than one string.

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  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Ms. Haiku wrote:
    Yes, but this isn't permanent.

    Actually, I think I'm more connected with people I wouldn't have been since the internet. The community is redefined, and can include people one hasn't met in person.

    Ok, here's an example, kindof quirky, but bear with me. Say, PJ would like to start this type of mindset for just 1 minute. During a concert Eddie would say, "Ok, every person in an odd-numbered seat turn to your left, and every person in an even numbered seat turn to your right. Say "HI" you can say your name if you want, but at least say HI. Next everyone in an odd numbered seat turn to your right, and everyone in an even numbered seat turn to your left. Say "HI", you can say your name if you want, but at least say HI. Ok, on with the concert . . . It may seem forced, big-brothering, etc, but ultimately, it's just a hello.

    Not too hard, eh?

    no, it's not. and i like the idea, but i dont think it will happen. and yes, we're more connected to people here we never woulda met, but we also get very connected to people we will never meet. we're all sitting here on our computers, who's knocking on their neighbors door to say hi? would we do it even if we weren't here? how would we respond if they knocked on our doors?

    the meeting in person is important. no amount of typing and reading can recreate the connection of shaking someone's hand or looking them in the eye. it's humanizing. furthermore, in terms of spotting tragedies like this, we can control how we are perceived on here. we can write people off as just acting out, just like they do out there. we cannot see their faces to gauge all those visual cues that tell us when someone is being sarcastic or angry or troubled. even if we do, what could we do to stop someone from losing it? who do you contact? would the police even respond to an email saying "this guy i know on a message board lives in your town and said he might hurt someone." who? how do you stop it? it's not the same thing. and even then, some people find communities that reinforce how disturbed they are... child porn rings, white supremacist message boards, etc. the internet community cannot replace our communities in the real world. we cannot ignore flesh and blood for digital screens... it's dehumanizing. yes, great relationships can be formed online, but that is not enough to replace what we've lost with respect to knowing our neighbors or simply saying hello to people on the street.
  • mdigenakismdigenakis Posts: 1,337
    mutual respect, responsibility, accountability for ones actions, and a sort of universal values are just a few things that we need to focus on in the classroom. Not the statistically driven nightmare we have now where student learning depends on test results. I'm in grad school right now and this form of democratic learning is like nothing i've experienced before, it blows my mind. From 1-12 we track students through constant testing. The students see this and give up rather early, and some of them reach higher levels and then it all comes crashing down. At the high school level we should focus on the aformentioned respect, responsibility, etc, as well as critical thinking, because once these students are out of High school they are adults. Pressures outside the school are what demand these results or the schools suffer financial penalties. their needs to be a fundamental change in the school system. i got through high school and college with little learning, just plain memorization. I knew that the tests were the only factor that mattered to these places of "higher learning".
    i can't make any assumptions how the school system might of let down this kid in va tech at an earlier age. To make it to the va tech engineering school which i think he was a part of is impressive. This guy was obviously disturbed mentally throughout his college years and maybe from an earlier age. Instead of focusing on his grades and getting him to the next level, maybe his teachers could helped him earlier in his academic career if there was more of an emphasis on student development outside of academics at the high school level.
    "Don't let the darkness eat you up..."

    -Greg Dulli

  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    mdigenakis wrote:
    mutual respect, responsibility, accountability for ones actions, and a sort of universal values are just a few things that we need to focus on in the classroom. Not the statistically driven nightmare we have now where student learning depends on test results. I'm in grad school right now and this form of democratic learning is like nothing i've experienced before, it blows my mind. From 1-12 we track students through constant testing. The students see this and give up rather early, and some of them reach higher levels and then it all comes crashing down. At the high school level we should focus on the aformentioned respect, responsibility, etc, as well as critical thinking, because once these students are out of High school they are adults. Pressures outside the school are what demand these results or the schools suffer financial penalties. their needs to be a fundamental change in the school system. i got through high school and college with little learning, just plain memorization. I knew that the tests were the only factor that mattered to these places of "higher learning".
    i can't make any assumptions how the school system might of let down this kid in va tech at an earlier age. To make it to the va tech engineering school which i think he was a part of is impressive. This guy was obviously disturbed mentally throughout his college years and maybe from an earlier age. Instead of focusing on his grades and getting him to the next level, maybe his teachers could helped him earlier in his academic career if there was more of an emphasis on student development outside of academics at the high school level.

    i dont know about that. he was an english major. and if you read his plays, i have no idea how.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    i dont know about that. he was an english major. and if you read his plays, i have no idea how.
    Those are just two writings. I've just read them and they are not entirely without at least some technical merit.

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  • mdigenakismdigenakis Posts: 1,337
    i dont know about that. he was an english major. and if you read his plays, i have no idea how.
    ok, my mistake, i just found out about the plays and all.
    "Don't let the darkness eat you up..."

    -Greg Dulli

  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    i dont know about that. he was an english major. and if you read his plays, i have no idea how.
    Are you serious? :eek:

    This REALLY speaks poorly for the English program at V-Tech. Seriously, that was some of the worst writing I've ever seen.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    hippiemom wrote:
    Are you serious? :eek:

    This REALLY speaks poorly for the English program at V-Tech. Seriously, that was some of the worst writing I've ever seen.

    i think that's what ss was saying.

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  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    gue_barium wrote:
    i think that's what ss was saying.
    I know he was, I just had to express my shock that the guy was an English major. When I read those, I assumed he was in an engineering program or something. It's beyond comprehension how he got into a college-level English program.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    hippiemom wrote:
    I know he was, I just had to express my shock that the guy was an English major. When I read those, I assumed he was in an engineering program or something. It's beyond comprehension how he got into a college-level English program.

    I don't think you should judge on just two writings. I'm guessing these are the ones he turned in that alerted his professor to recommend him to counseling.

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  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    gue_barium wrote:
    I don't think you should judge on just two writings. I'm guessing these are the ones he turned in that alerted his professor to recommend him to counseling.
    I'm not even talking about the content. If they'd been about flowers and puppy dogs, the writing would still have been horrible.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • memememe Posts: 4,695
    Nothing is ever done. We pump the kids full of more Ritalin, and think that will solve their anger. We see kids acting out and say, lets give them more medication or drugs. We ignore the warning signs.

    We ignore the flat our RAGE of young white males, who take out their anger on fellow classmates and especially young girl classmates.

    We ignore our childrens pleas, and comments, we berate them, abuse them, taunt them, kill them, and brutalize them, we jail them and beat them, then give them tablets and think it will solve something

    You really think ANY of the school shooters can take tablets and magically all their rage, their anger, their feelings will disappear and they will smile and say everything is alright.

    The Virginia shootings will happen again, unfortunatly. More kids will die needlessly because no one chooses to listen to our kids.

    I don't know...

    I am now the mother of a 7 year old child who seems to be having anger issues. I am really trying to do my best. Sometimes I find myself drifting back to the way I was brought up, the moms in "Why Go", or "Daughter".

    It is so damn difficult to be a parent. It surely does take a village.
    ... and the will to show I will always be better than before.
  • deadnotedeadnote Posts: 1,678
    this stuff isnt something you can keep from happening
    the only solution is cameras inside homes and lots of new jobs having people watch people live and reading what they think in privacy

    theres always gonna be vulnerable people in quarters suceptable to some phsycotic mind planning out someone wrong

    so lets get cameras everywhere , youll get used to being watched its no big deal
    set your laughter free

    dreamer in my dream

    we got the guns

    i love you,but im..............callin out.........callin out
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    hippiemom wrote:
    I'm not even talking about the content. If they'd been about flowers and puppy dogs, the writing would still have been horrible.

    Give it a rest. If you want to target the English department of VT, write them a letter for Christ's sake.

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  • For those blaming video games....


    Blame the parents who allow those video games to get into the hands of the immature gamer. On each and every video game that is sold and advertised, there is a rating that an easily been seen on the front cover listing the intended audience the game was created for, and why it's rated as it is. You can also blame the stores who have a very lax policy when it comes to selling the video games. Each and every retailer that sales video games is supposed to ID the customer who is purchasing a game that is rated Mature 17+ (most games that contain shooting and violence are rated Mature 17+). Unfortunately, this does not happen and a 13 year old can obtain a copy of the latest shoot em up. But this leads back to the parent. Sure, the adolescent can obtain a copy of the game, but the parents are the ones responsible for deciding whats allowed and whats crossing the line when it comes to their house. By ignoring the activities that the adolescent is partaking in, the parents leave that adolescent open for media that they are not possibly mature enough for. People looks at video games as kiddy devices, intended for young kids and nerds. People don't understand that video games, like movies, have levels of intensity and matureness that coincide with the matureness of the person watching them. In fact, video games are even more intense because you interact with them and make choice that affect your player and characters in the game. Yet, people pay no attention to the 13 year old thats playing a violent game. It seems that the only ones that do pay attention are the people who want them gone, and taken away. Why is it disgusting that these games are created? They are a form of entertainment. They are a form of stress relief for many, many people including myself. I play violent games such as Grand Theft Auto, yet I'm a very easy going, peaceful person. I dont want a gun, nor will i own one. I'm emotional about violence. Video games, once again, are a form of entertainment. Such is the same about a person singing about a person who was forced into incest at a young ago becoming violent. Or about a bus driver that happens to be a cannibal.
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    gue_barium wrote:
    Give it a rest. If you want to target the English department of VT, write them a letter for Christ's sake.
    I'll post what I want to post. If you don't care to read it, don't.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    hippiemom wrote:
    I'll post what I want to post. If you don't care to read it, don't.

    Ahem. Fair enough. :)

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  • memememe Posts: 4,695
    For those blaming video games....


    Blame the parents who allow those video games to get into the hands of the immature gamer. On each and every video game that is sold and advertised, there is a rating that an easily been seen on the front cover listing the intended audience the game was created for, and why it's rated as it is. You can also blame the stores who have a very lax policy when it comes to selling the video games. Each and every retailer that sales video games is supposed to ID the customer who is purchasing a game that is rated Mature 17+ (most games that contain shooting and violence are rated Mature 17+). Unfortunately, this does not happen and a 13 year old can obtain a copy of the latest shoot em up. But this leads back to the parent. Sure, the adolescent can obtain a copy of the game, but the parents are the ones responsible for deciding whats allowed and whats crossing the line when it comes to their house. By ignoring the activities that the adolescent is partaking in, the parents leave that adolescent open for media that they are not possibly mature enough for. People looks at video games as kiddy devices, intended for young kids and nerds. People don't understand that video games, like movies, have levels of intensity and matureness that coincide with the matureness of the person watching them. In fact, video games are even more intense because you interact with them and make choice that affect your player and characters in the game. Yet, people pay no attention to the 13 year old thats playing a violent game. It seems that the only ones that do pay attention are the people who want them gone, and taken away. Why is it disgusting that these games are created? They are a form of entertainment. They are a form of stress relief for many, many people including myself. I play violent games such as Grand Theft Auto, yet I'm a very easy going, peaceful person. I dont want a gun, nor will i own one. I'm emotional about violence. Video games, once again, are a form of entertainment. Such is the same about a person singing about a person who was forced into incest at a young ago becoming violent. Or about a bus driver that happens to be a cannibal.

    I'll admit to being squeamish, but the Lego Star Wars and the ones made for general audience are violent enough for me. Whenever someone on the screen goes up in a puff as a consequence of a kid pushing a button, I think there's something wrong.
    ... and the will to show I will always be better than before.
  • rybesrybes Posts: 136
    For those blaming video games....

    Blame the parents who allow those video games to get into the hands of the immature gamer. ...You can also blame the stores who have a very lax policy when it comes to selling the video games... But this leads back to the parent. ...By ignoring the activities that the adolescent is partaking in, the parents leave that adolescent open for media that they are not possibly mature enough for. ...Video games, once again, are a form of entertainment.

    Thank you! Well put.. video games are always a scapegoat. As mentioned above... movies, music, video games anything of the genre, its not reality, its entertainment.

    Being able to make that distinction is key.
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