choke chains

farfromglorified

sponger wrote:

You're implying that a standard dog collar cannot exert tactile pressure. The words "tactile pressure" simply mean pressure through the sense of touch.

It's impossible to do this with a standard collar, unless you just grab the collar and pull it, which is going to put all the pressure on one spot of the dog's neck, which is much less safe. You can use your hand, however, to just grab the dog's scruff, which works great on smaller dogs or puppies, but not so well on fully grown or larger dogs.

As for growling....we all have vocal chords, don't we?

Of course. However, those same vocal chords have all sorts other associations in the dog's mind. If you want to recreate a good growl correction for dogs, pebbles in a tin can work great. I'm using that to bark-correct my youngest puppy now.

There's always other ways to accomplish what a choke chain does. But that doesn't make choke chains wrong, nor does it mean they aren't the best way to accomplish certain things in training.

You've associated choke chains in your own mind with pain and punishment. And that's probably because you've seen or heard about people misusing them. Banning the chains isn't going to fix those people. They'll simply find something else to misuse in dog training.

Skitch Patterson

sponger wrote:

To me, this post actually makes some sense. In this sense, it's actually in the dog's best interest.

But, I think a dog can be taught to heel with a regular collar that isn't fitted too tightly.

In general yes, but if they are healing properly it doesnt matter if you have a ring of razor wire around their neck, its puts no pressure on their neck at all in less they are straining against it for some reason...Think of it as a precaution.

and a well behaved dog can still be spooked, no matter how good it is. Be it a random horn honking, a loud screech, or even another dog looking for trouble. The choke chain prevents it from escaping your control, so even if your dog freaks out for a second, you still have the opportunity to protect it, and yourself.

sponger

If a dog attempts to move forward while you are simply standing still, does that not create a choking sensation when using a choke chain?

Skitch Patterson

sponger wrote:

If a dog attempts to move forward while you are simply standing still, does that not create a choking sensation when using a choke chain?

and if he jumps in a fire, he burns his paws.

Im not sure what your intention was in starting this thread. FarFromGlorified has provided you with some alternative reasons for using a choke chain, i have provided examples of where a choke chain could actually be in a dogs best interest. Instead of actual debate, you just default to the "well its still choking".

If your definition of "choking" is any pressure to ones neck, then i guess there is no way to debate this, as it obviously does put some pressure on the neck of the dog. If my dog hears his choke chain when i pick up his leash, he comes running to go outside. Id say once every 2 weeks or so does he even use up all the slack on his leash for any reason (usually bunny related), but less to than the point it tightens the chain. If it was painful, or torture, or any other way a "negative" to him i doubt he would come running.

Dogs, like people and everything else, learn their limits and how to function within them.

sponger

Skitch Patterson wrote:

and if he jumps in a fire, he burns his paws.

Common sense, really. That's why it's common sense to not use choke chains. How about I stand him in front of the fireplace as a method of housebreaking?

Im not sure what your intention was in starting this thread. FarFromGlorified has provided you with some alternative reasons for using a choke chain, i have provided examples of where a choke chain could actually be in a dogs best interest. Instead of actual debate, you just default to the "well its still choking".

Your example of it being in the dog's best interest had some loopholes that you failed to address. And the alternative reasons that farfromglorified provided did not distinguish a choke chain from a conventional collar. FFG was certain that a conventional collar cannot exert tactile pressure without being dangerous.

Every time a dog is held at bay by a conventional collar, tactile pressure is being exerted.

If your definition of "choking" is any pressure to ones neck, then i guess there is no way to debate this, as it obviously does put some pressure on the neck of the dog. If my dog hears his choke chain when i pick up his leash, he comes running to go outside. Id say once every 2 weeks or so does he even use up all the slack on his leash for any reason (usually bunny related), but less to than the point it tightens the chain. If it was painful, or torture, or any other way a "negative" to him i doubt he would come running.

Dogs, like people and everything else, learn their limits and how to function within them.

You still use the choke chain? Even choke chain advocates would take issue with that.

What you've proven to me about your dog is that it learned to not choke himself. That's the point I'm making. It learned to obey by developing an awareness of the potential for being choked.

Skitch Patterson

sponger wrote:

Your example of it being in the dog's best interest had some loopholes that you failed to address. And the alternative reasons that farfromglorified provided did not distinguish a choke chain from a conventional collar. FFG was certain that a conventional collar cannot exert tactile pressure without being dangerous.

What loopholes? The thing you said about a well trained dog knowing to heel? Even if a dog is well behaved, certain things may make him not attack, but either try and run away, or pull back quickly- where he can back out of a convential collar.

sponger wrote:

Every time a dog is held at bay by a conventional collar, tactile pressure is being exerted.

Yes. Improper focused pressure that is going to put all of its pressure on the dogs trachea. As FFG pointed out, that is far more likely to injure the dog than a properly used choke chain.

sponger wrote:

You still use the choke chain? Even choke chain advocates would take issue with that.

They may. My Dog doesnt take issue with it, and frankly thats all that matters to me. Its a chain, very rarely does the "choke" even come into play. I have the unfortunate circumstance of living on a main road, and a neighbor who doesn't see fit to put his dog on a leash at all times. One time, their little dog came over and started attacking my dog, who backed out of his collar and ran into rush hour traffic to avoid the attacking dog. Luckily he wasnt hit, but it did nearly cause a car accident. I think he'd prefer a little pressure when he goes to chase a rabbit for a second than being hit by a pick up truck.

sponger wrote:

What you've proven to me about your dog is that it learned to not choke himself. That's the point I'm making. It learned to obey by developing an awareness of the potential for being choked.

Yes, he learned not to cause himself discomfort. You're just saying a regular collar should be used for the same purpose... and it wasnt designed to do that in a humane way. And it isnt a matter of "obey". Like i said, rarely does the dog even pull on the leash, much less the chain.

sponger

Skitch Patterson wrote:

What loopholes? The thing you said about a well trained dog knowing to heel? Even if a dog is well behaved, certain things may make him not attack, but either try and run away, or pull back quickly- where he can back out of a convential collar.

I always tightened the collar on my dog's neck by one buckle hole before taking him for walks. He was not able to back his way out of it, and it wasn't choking him.

Yes. Improper focused pressure that is going to put all of its pressure on the dogs trachea. As FFG pointed out, that is far more likely to injure the dog than a properly used choke chain.

For example the trachea that cesar milan smashed at his dog psychology compound. He was using a choke chain.

They may. My Dog doesnt take issue with it, and frankly thats all that matters to me. Its a chain, very rarely does the "choke" even come into play. I have the unfortunate circumstance of living on a main road, and a neighbor who doesn't see fit to put his dog on a leash at all times. One time, their little dog came over and started attacking my dog, who backed out of his collar and ran into rush hour traffic to avoid the attacking dog. Luckily he wasnt hit, but it did nearly cause a car accident. I think he'd prefer a little pressure when he goes to chase a rabbit for a second than being hit by a pick up truck.

Of course, a dog can be conditioned. He isn't going to file a formal complaint. A conventional collar can easily hold your dog at bay. You can loosen it when you get back. Does it carry a greater risk of smashing his trachea moreso than a choke chain? First I've heard of that.

Yes, he learned not to cause himself discomfort. You're just saying a regular collar should be used for the same purpose... and it wasnt designed to do that in a humane way. And it isnt a matter of "obey". Like i said, rarely does the dog even pull on the leash, much less the chain.

That just sounds to me like he might not even need a choke chain then. In which case, the justification for using one or keeping them legal seems thin.

I'm sure you love your dog and don't believe in abusing it in any way, but I just think there are better alternatives out there. Point in fact is that there are a lot of well-behaved dogs who were not subjected to chain choke training. If the possibility is there, I find it hard to justify avoiding that possibility.

bootlegger10

pjamdude69 wrote:

I'd like to get one for my dog.. If only because I'm pissed off at the fucker for knocking over the $250 fountain I bought my wife last summer. Broke both the heads of the cherubs, so we've got headless cherubs on our fountain..


fuckin dog..

You should replace one of the heads of the cherubs with the skull of your fuckin dog.

Skitch Patterson

sponger wrote:

I'm sure you love your dog and don't believe in abusing it in any way, but I just think there are better alternatives out there. Point in fact is that there are a lot of well-behaved dogs who were not subjected to chain choke training. If the possibility is there, I find it hard to justify avoiding that possibility.

I didnt feel like going through the whole complex quote procedure.

a Tightened collar to me seems more likely to cause discomfort to your dog. Is it going to collapse a trachea more often then a choke chain? i dont know, but when you pull it if that situation arises, common sense would tell you that the most pressure is going to be on the trachea, as it protrudes slightly from the roundness of the neck.

But regardless, if a dog pulls too hard any ANY type of collar, its going to have a choking effect on him until he backs off.. Using a chain as opposed to a conventional collar really wont matter either way. If someone wants to choke their dog as correction, instead of restriction, they'll find a way.

And my dog probably doesn't need one, probably never did. Ive never even considered it as "training," like i said earlier, its a precaution for his and my benefit. Hes well behaved in general, but he's also a spaz. I dont think ive ever pulled it for correction, hes pulled it himself while im holding it.. which would have the same effect with a regular collar.

So i guess it all comes back to.... Assholes will find a way to abuse their pets, regardless of if chains are outlawed... so why eliminate something the majority of people do not use for abusive purposes?

sponger

The word "abusive" in this sense is open to interpretation. From your perspective, abuse is the deliberate infliction of pain and asphyxiation with no intended positive outcome. That is, the owner is not helping the dog to learn obedience to the point where the dog learns to not choke itself.

But, my interpretation of abuse is when people overlook the alternatives. I think there are alternatives to using a choke chain. THey just requires more patience. Whether a conventional collar poses a greater danger to the trachea is not something I'm familiar with. Choke chains no doubt also pose a danger to the trachea.

The indisputable truth is that choke chains are effective because they do in fact squeeze the throat, causing a choking sensation. Why someone would feel comfortable resorting to that method over other methods is beyond me. It's really a question of whether or not you really care I guess. Your rationale is that the dog has no complaints. Of course it has no complaints. It's a dog. It doesn't know the difference. As long as it knows it gets to go outside, it's going to be happy.

But, there will always be dogs that get to outside without choke chains. Then there are other dogs. Your dog is the other dog. That's the choice that you made. That is the abuse I'm talking about.

El_Kabong

chopitdown wrote:

should we ban just about everything then? I mean everything has a purpose that is made and everything doesn't have to be used for that purpose. We should ban hammers, screwdrivers then b/c those can cause damage to people/ things when used inappropriately. People should not be using the choker chains if they don't know how to use them and a parent should show their child the appropriate way to use the collar.

dude, nowhere did i say anything about banning anything...some ppl acted like they never heard of these things, i just brought up they had ones w/ prongs, which may not hurt them as much as me but still could hurt.

all i said was these things could be misused, like pretty much anything, i never said to ban them

Skitch Patterson

sponger wrote:

That is the abuse I'm talking about.

And its equally abusive to use a regular collar to exert pressure on the neck. when a dog pulls.

MakingWaves

El_Kabong wrote:

dude, nowhere did i say anything about banning anything...some ppl acted like they never heard of these things, i just brought up they had ones w/ prongs, which may not hurt them as much as me but still could hurt.

all i said was these things could be misused, like pretty much anything, i never said to ban them

We use the type of collar with prongs on them when we take our dogs for walks around other people and other dogs. They work really well and do not hurt them at all. Trust me, those dogs live a better life than 90% of the people in the world and my wife would never use anything that hurts them. I have recommended them to a few friends and they seem to work every time.

chopitdown

El_Kabong wrote:

dude, nowhere did i say anything about banning anything...some ppl acted like they never heard of these things, i just brought up they had ones w/ prongs, which may not hurt them as much as me but still could hurt.

all i said was these things could be misused, like pretty much anything, i never said to ban them

that's my bad.

chopitdown

sponger wrote:

But, my interpretation of abuse is when people overlook the alternatives. I think there are alternatives to using a choke chain. THey just requires more patience. Whether a conventional collar poses a greater danger to the trachea is not something I'm familiar with. Choke chains no doubt also pose a danger to the trachea.

both collars can cause injury to the trachea but a conventional collar puts more pressure on the opposite side of the pull of the leash. A choker chain evenly distributes the force around the neck. So instead of having (ex.) 10 lbs of force directly applied to the anterior aspect of the throat via the collar you have the 10lbs of force evenly distributed around the entire neck region, which is more comfortable. There are alternatives to choker chains and alternative ways of training dogs. You don't like choker chains, so dont use one. But don't think that people are abusing dogs if they are using them either. Besides if you can train the dog to respond to a quick jerk from the choker chain hopefully that translates over to the conventional leash so you can just apply a quick jolt with the leash and it can be safer for the dog.

sponger

chopitdown wrote:

both collars can cause injury to the trachea but

But injury caused by choke chains happens more often and is therefore more likely to happen.

a conventional collar puts more pressure on the opposite side of the pull of the leash. A choker chain evenly distributes the force around the neck. So instead of having (ex.) 10 lbs of force directly applied to the anterior aspect of the throat via the collar you have the 10lbs of force evenly distributed around the entire neck region, which is more comfortable.

In a retrospective study on spinal pain, injury or changes in dogs conducted in Sweden, Hallgreen (1992) found that 91% of dogs with cervical anomalies experienced harsh jerks on lead or had a long history of pulling on the lead. Uses of chokers was also overrepresented in this group. This strongly suggests that such corrections are potentially injurious." - Karen Overall, Clinical Behavioural Medicine for Small Animals.

http://www.dog-school.co.uk/Choke%20Chains!.htm

Basically, choke chains are just more dangerous and carry more potential harm to the dog.

There are alternatives to choker chains and alternative ways of training dogs. You don't like choker chains, so dont use one. But don't think that people are abusing dogs if they are using them either. Besides if you can train the dog to respond to a quick jerk from the choker chain hopefully that translates over to the conventional leash so you can just apply a quick jolt with the leash and it can be safer for the dog.

You don't think most people abuse their dogs through the use of choke chains because you haven't really defined abuse for what it is.

It's really going to come down to google power here eventually. One can easily google more evidence against the use of choke chains than for the use of choke chains over conventional collars and positive reinforcement techniques.