choke chains

El_Kabong

sourdough wrote:

I don't think I've ever heard of a dog suffocating to death from a choke chain. They are designed to be used as a sharp tug and they should immediately release.

lots of things are designed for a certain purpose but are misused....these were made to train, not torture, dosen't mean someone can't use it that way! leashes are for walking dogs around, yet i've seen kids dragging their dogs by them and snapping it real quick to jerk them...

farfromglorified

Rushlimbo wrote:

Yes, the prongs are on it as flair, not to increase pain to obey.

:rolleyes:

Again, it's not about pain. If you misuse a choke collar, a dog is certainly going to be in pain. But if you use it correctly, it's no different than grabbing a dog by the scruff or doing the things a mother dog would do its pups.

sponger

The fact remains that the dog is made aware of the possibility of suffocation even though it is not being suffocated. Otherwise, what purpose does the choke chain have?

That's why it's "obey or suffocate". If you did not suffocate your dog with the choke chain, it's because the dog chose to obey instead of suffocate.

chopitdown

El_Kabong wrote:

lots of things are designed for a certain purpose but are misused....these were made to train, not torture, dosen't mean someone can't use it that way! leashes are for walking dogs around, yet i've seen kids dragging their dogs by them and snapping it real quick to jerk them...

should we ban just about everything then? I mean everything has a purpose that is made and everything doesn't have to be used for that purpose. We should ban hammers, screwdrivers then b/c those can cause damage to people/ things when used inappropriately. People should not be using the choker chains if they don't know how to use them and a parent should show their child the appropriate way to use the collar.

farfromglorified

sponger wrote:

The fact remains that the dog is made aware of the possibility of suffocation even though it is not being suffocated. Otherwise, what purpose does the choke chain have?

That's why it's "obey or suffocate". If you did not suffocate your dog with the choke chain, it's because the dog chose to obey instead of suffocate.

Huh? Choke chains work by sound and by tactile pressue, not by choking. If you're cutting off air flow to your dog, you're misusing choke chains and likely using them in a counterproductive way. A choke chain should never be used to literally choke a dog.

chopitdown

sponger wrote:

The fact remains that the dog is made aware of the possibility of suffocation even though it is not being suffocated. Otherwise, what purpose does the choke chain have?

That's why it's "obey or suffocate". If you did not suffocate your dog with the choke chain, it's because the dog chose to obey instead of suffocate.

thus the use for obedience training.

Smellyman2

There are less cruel ways to train a dog. Positive reward is always better than negative.

ALWAYS

Skitch Patterson

sponger wrote:

The fact remains that the dog is made aware of the possibility of suffocation even though it is not being suffocated. Otherwise, what purpose does the choke chain have?

That's why it's "obey or suffocate". If you did not suffocate your dog with the choke chain, it's because the dog chose to obey instead of suffocate.

No, its not. Its restriction, not punishment.

sponger

farfromglorified wrote:

Huh? Choke chains work by sound and by tactile pressue, not by choking. If you're cutting off air flow to your dog, you're misusing choke chains and likely using them in a counterproductive way. A choke chain should never be used to literally choke a dog.

Then there is no need for a choke chain.

farfromglorified

sponger wrote:

Then there is no need for a choke chain.

In most cases there's no need for the dog either. Perhaps you should make them illegal too.

Choke chains are not your problem. Stupid and/or angry people are your problem. Try not to be like them.

sponger

farfromglorified wrote:

In most cases there's no need for the dog either. Perhaps you should make them illegal too.

Choke chains are not your problem. Stupid and/or angry people are your problem. Try not to be like them.

But, you see, saying that you use a choke chain without the need to choke is like saying you bought a pit bull for your used car lot because you needed a companion. There are lots of other dogs that make great companions. A pit bull isn't necessary. And even if you had a special affinity for pit bulls, it doesn't make sense to train it to guard your used car lot.

My point is that if you aren't using the choke chain for its choking characteristics, then I don't see the need for it.

sponger

Skitch Patterson wrote:

It also, in some respects is safer for the dog. A regular collar worn all the time should be loose enough that the dog can slip out of it if they absolutely have to (so if it gets caught on something they dont choke to death), and if you are walking a dog along a main road, and something spooks them, they could, in theory slip out of a regular collar putting themselves, you, and motorist in danger. The choke chain, because it tightens when pulled is virtually impossible to escape out of.

Choke Chains should not be left on a dog at all times, and only used when you are in control of it, so the dog isnt injured by it, but is not abusive if you dont use it that way.

To me, this post actually makes some sense. In this sense, it's actually in the dog's best interest.

But, I think a dog can be taught to heel with a regular collar that isn't fitted too tightly.

Rushlimbo

From some of the comments on here I think we should just rename it a "Pleasure chain". Obviously it doesnt cause any discomfort. The dog just knows to behave when it is around his neck.

sponger

Rushlimbo wrote:

The dog just knows to behave when it is around his neck.

You mean he knows he will be choked if he doesn't behave. That's like holding a bamboo stick over his head while asking his name rank and serial number.

farfromglorified

sponger wrote:

But, you see, saying that you use a choke chain without the need to choke is like saying you bought a pit bull for your used car lot because you needed a companion. There are lots of other dogs that make great companions. A pit bull isn't necessary. And even if you had a special affinity for pit bulls, it doesn't make sense to train it to guard your used car lot.

My point is that if you aren't using the choke chain for its choking characteristics, then I don't see the need for it.

You simply don't understand those "choking characteristics". You're just assuming that you pull a choke chain in order to cause pain in the dog or restrict its breathing as punishment for some bad behavior, which isn't what a choke chain is for.

Have you ever seen a mother dog with it's pups? When a puppy does something it's not supposed to, a mother dog "grabs" the puppy by the scruff on the back of its neck by using her mouth. If the behavior continues, she bites down a little. If the behavior still continues, she growls and shakes a little. That's how puppies learn things. It's not cruel or even painful.

Now, you as a person can simulate that using just your hands, which is what I do with my pups. But a choke chain, correctly used, is both very effective and also not painful or cruel. You can pretend that choke chains are always used to inflict pain or restrict breathing as they are by morons, but that's not what they're for.

Rushlimbo

sponger wrote:

You mean he knows he will be choked if he doesn't behave. That's like holding a bamboo stick over his head while asking his name rank and serial number.

Exactly.

farfromglorified

sponger wrote:

You mean he knows he will be choked if he doesn't behave. That's like holding a bamboo stick over his head while asking his name rank and serial number.

Dude, a bamboo stick over someone's head is a threat of pain. If you're using a choke chain as a threat of pain, all you're teaching your dog is to be afraid of choke chains, not to follow commands.

sponger

farfromglorified wrote:

You simply don't understand those "choking characteristics". You're just assuming that you pull a choke chain in order to cause pain in the dog or restrict its breathing as punishment for some bad behavior, which isn't what a choke chain is for.

Have you ever seen a mother dog with it's pups? When a puppy does something it's not supposed to, a mother dog "grabs" the puppy by the scruff on the back of its neck by using her mouth. If the behavior continues, she bites down a little. If the behavior still continues, she growls and shakes a little. That's how puppies learn things. It's not cruel or even painful.

Now, you as a person can simulate that using just your hands, which is what I do with my pups. But a choke chain, correctly used, is both very effective and also not painful or cruel. You can pretend that choke chains are always used to inflict pain or restrict breathing as they are by morons, but that's not what they're for.

If the choke chain isn't choking, then what you are using it for? You haven't answered that question yet. What does a choke chain do besides choke that a regular collar can't do?

farfromglorified

sponger wrote:

If the choke chain isn't choking, then what you are using it for? You haven't answered that question yet. What does a choke chain do besides choke that a regular collar can't do?

I already answered this question here:

http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=4178107&postcount=26

and here:

http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=4178380&postcount=36

Choke chains are used to simulate the natural correction dogs will get from their mother or dominant pack leader. That's a combination of tactile pressure on the neck and the sound of growling. It has nothing to do with pain or restricting breathing. Those two things are typically counterproductive in training. Again, if you take things that far all you're doing is teaching the dog to be afraid of the choke chain, not to respect you as their dominant leader.

Look, go talk to your local dog trainer about choke chains. You'll find out that the choke chain doesn't even have to be on the dog's neck in a lot of cases. Typically, the sound of the chain itself works, without the pressure, especially if you start early in a dog's life.

sponger

farfromglorified wrote:

I already answered this question here:

http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=4178107&postcount=26

and here:

http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=4178380&postcount=36

Choke chains are used to simulate the natural correction dogs will get from their mother or dominant pack leader. That's a combination of tactile pressure on the neck and the sound of growling. It has nothing to do with pain or restricting breathing. Those two things are typically counterproductive in training. Again, if you take things that far all you're doing is teaching the dog to be afraid of the choke chain, not to respect you as their dominant leader.

Look, go talk to your local dog trainer about choke chains. You'll find out that the choke chain doesn't even have to be on the dog's neck in a lot of cases. Typically, the sound of the chain itself works, without the pressure, especially if you start early in a dog's life.

You're implying that a standard dog collar cannot exert tactile pressure. The words "tactile pressure" simply mean pressure through the sense of touch.

As for growling....we all have vocal chords, don't we?

And let's be honest about something here. If a dog puts pressure on the chain, the chain chokes him. That's what it's designed to do. This means if you stand in one place while the dog is trying to move forward, the dog chokes himself. Eventually, the dog learns to stop when you stop, but that's because it got sick and tired of choking himself.