see, this is the whole faulty logic that you're basing your argument on...you are absolutely not responsible for buying a shitburger if you're told it's a hamburger
That's odd because I'd be the one handing over the money for it.
, there's appropriate action for you to take once you realize you got duped.
Yes there is -- not buying another shitburger just because someone tells me it's a hamburger.
just like there's laws in place for the workers of Enron who were duped by Lay. they were sold shitburgers and told it was hamburgers. just like the Neil Young line, "they give you this but you paid for that". sorry you can't seem to grasp it.....
I do grasp it. The problem with your analogy is everyone involved got exactly what they payed for -- unreasonable risk.
what Lay did to the Enron workers was criminal, what don't you understand about that?
I certainly understand it was against the law. I just don't understand why your laws are only enforced when people lose money, and the inherent irony of your hatred of greed.
i said as much in the other thread...i am seriously awaiting news that somehow this was a suicide....escape hard jailtime, the governemtn trying to take 43 million from you....etc. definitely fodder for the conspiracy theorists out there.
You may have been reading another publication, but I don't recally anyone paying Ken to steal their money.
You're right. They paid Ken Lay to turn their money into more money. But they never bothered to ask Ken Lay how he planned to do that, and they never attached any terms to their gift to him. And they took his empty promises as proof of their genius and poured more money into that hole. And when their Midas proved to be another fraud, they were the first to scream "GREED!!!"
You're right. They paid Ken Lay to turn their money into more money. But they never bothered to ask Ken Lay how he planned to do that, and they never attached any terms to their gift to him. And they took his empty promises as proof of their genius and poured more money into that hole. And when their Midas proved to be another fraud, they were the first to scream "GREED!!!"
No actually there were promises. There were accounting reports and various other annual reports that were falsified, and were independantly audited by an accounting firm who falsified the audits.
I still support corporate america...hell i work for a corporation and they pay me well. SO i cant complain.
I'm not sure which is funnier. The broad support for corporate america because one company pays you well or that you are a supporter of Bill O'lyer. The Factor does provide some funny material for the Daily show though.
No actually there were promises. There were accounting reports and various other annual reports that were falsified, and were independantly audited by an accounting firm who falsified the audits.
They weren't falsified. They described exactly what was going on, based on the standards in place. People just assumed that the numbers were healthy. Obviously they were not.
Those were promises.
And when you break a promise, are you thrown in jail?
They weren't falsified. They described exactly what was going on, based on the standards in place. People just assumed that the numbers were healthy. Obviously they were not.
And when you break a promise, are you thrown in jail?
They were falsified.. which is why he was convicted of a crime.
My point was the Ken Lay is responsible for his own idiocy, not the idiocy of people who bought into it.
He is responsible for the downfall of his function at Enron, and his loss is the appropriate justice for it.
Enron employees are responsible for their investments, and their losses are the appropriate justice for their decisions.
Ken Lay forced nothing on anyone but himself.
I find it quite funny that you keep pegging some blame on the empolyees???? Just for the record my friend. My girlfriends company got taken over by a nice Yank corp. and they force them to buy into the company. Tell me again where they are taking a risk themselves. Yeah I thought so. They tank and all their money just disappears. And they had no choice. Really easy to comprehend, I would think. We all know who the crook is and for some reason you are just not accepting it. Is he your uncle?
I find it quite funny that you keep pegging some blame on the empolyees???? Just for the record my friend. My girlfriends company got taken over by a nice Yank corp. and they force them to buy into the company. Tell me again where they are taking a risk themselves. Yeah I thought so. They tank and all their money just disappears. And they had no choice. Really easy to comprehend, I would think. We all know who the crook is and for some reason you are just not accepting it. Is he your uncle?
They don't force them to buy into the company. First of all, the employees can work elsewhere.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
They don't force them to buy into the company. First of all, the employees can work elsewhere.
.
It seems blamming everthing that happens to everyone is convenient for those that fare well in this chaotic society.. at least for those that fell into and acceptable pod.. this way they can tell themselves they earned it.
They don't force them to buy into the company. First of all, the employees can work elsewhere.
Yes. Good jobs just fall from the sky. Shall I bring in the forms and send them to you to prove I am right? I think I know what she tells me and what I read.
Between you and farfrom thinking the world is a rosy peach. Geez I need to meet you two in real life. Just to see.........................
Just as nobody forces men to buy capris or the insults they may ingest. So you may have a point somewhere in your perfect world you live in.
I find it quite funny that you keep pegging some blame on the empolyees???? Just for the record my friend. My girlfriends company got taken over by a nice Yank corp. and they force them to buy into the company. Tell me again where they are taking a risk themselves. Yeah I thought so. They tank and all their money just disappears. And they had no choice. Really easy to comprehend, I would think. We all know who the crook is and for some reason you are just not accepting it. Is he your uncle?
No, Ken Lay is not my uncle.
The rest of your statement makes little sense. What money "disappeared", and who had "no choice"?
It seems blamming everthing that happens to everyone is convenient for those that fare well in this chaotic society.. at least for those that fell into and acceptable pod.. this way they can tell themselves they earned it.
Can you tell me how I didn't earn what I have? Who did I steal it from?
The rest of your statement makes little sense. What money "disappeared", and who had "no choice"?
exactly...people have a choice...good paying jobs are everywhere and people can leave at any time, just check your local paper. So what if one has bills and a family...hey, if another company takes over, the employee should have researched the situation, forseen the takeover, and been prepared...simple as that...
just the other day, a fella was mugged in broad daylight, while walking to the store...I place blame on the muggie, since he should have been perpared for the random mugger to jump him...he should have taken a different route, or drove a car, a taxi perhaps...or he should have not been so greedy for wanting a gallon of milk....what a dumbass, I say...
They were falsified.. which is why he was convicted of a crime.
No, he was convicted of securities fraud and making false statements to a bank. He was convicted not of doctoring financial records, but of participating in a "conspiracy". From the government's own mouth:
"As a part of the alleged scheme, unrealistic and unattainable earnings goals were set for Enron, based on analysts’ expectations rather than on actual or reasonably achievable business results. When, as expected within the company, Enron consistently fell short of those goals, Lay, Skilling, Causey and others allegedly orchestrated a series of accounting gimmicks designed to make up the shortfall between actual and predicted results. Enron then announced publicly that it had met or exceeded analysts’ expectations when, as Lay, Skilling and Causey allegedly knew, it made its numbers only by engaging in fraud. The indictment also alleges that Lay, Skilling and Causey made false and misleading representations about Enron’s finances and business operations to analysts, at press conferences, in SEC filings and elsewhere."
None of those things are illegal when investors are making money. They happen every day in America so that people's 401k's, employee pensions, CEO's bank accounts everyone else gets rich. However, when those schemes fall apart, then they become illegal.
Promise was your word.
Unless of course you're not a CEO, then it doesn't matter, right?
exactly...people have a choice...good paying jobs are everywhere and people can leave at any time, just check your local paper. So what if one has bills and a family...hey, if another company takes over, the employee should have researched the situation, forseen the takeover, and been prepared...simple as that...
Are you suggesting that a company owes a job in perpetuity to the employee?
just the other day, a fella was mugged in broad daylight, while walking to the store...I place blame on the muggie, since he should have been perpared for the random mugger to jump him...he should have taken a different route, or drove a car, a taxi perhaps...or he should have not been so greedy for wanting a gallon of milk....what a dumbass, I say...
This analogy makes no sense. A muggie doesn't participate willfully in his mugging. These investors did. They handed over their money willingly based on nothing more than empty promises.
Are you suggesting that a company owes a job in perpetuity to the employee?
not at all, the employee is fully to blame for not researching the possibility the company they work for may be taken over and they may be forced into changes by their new company leaders...an employee should and must be perpaired...why should an employee, who shows up each day, completes their assigned job duties, and works hard, expect anything...I was agreeing with you...they are to blame for not seeing into the future...
This analogy makes no sense. A muggie doesn't participate willfully in his mugging. These investors did. They handed over their money willingly based on nothing more than empty promises.
oh, it does make sense...the muggie should have known a mugger was going to steal from them...the muggie should have researched his route, and had the forsight to see a potential problem...therefore, he willfully walked to the store...how hard is it to understand this...geez...
not at all, the employee is fully to blame for not researching the possibility the company they work for may be taken over and they may be forced into changes by their new company leaders...an employee should and must be perpaired...why should an employee, who shows up each day, completes their assigned job duties, and works hard, expect anything...I was agreeing with you...
No, you're being sarcastic, which is quite your right.
they are to blame for not seeing into the future...
But aren't you saying that a CEO is???
oh, it does make sense...the muggie should have known a mugger was going to steal from them...
Not really, no.
the muggie should have researched his route, and had the forsight to see a potential problem...
Not really, no.
therefore, he willfully walked to the store...
YES!!! He did willfully walk to the store. Enron's employees willfully invested their money.
No, he was convicted of securities fraud and making false statements to a bank. He was convicted not of doctoring financial records, but of participating in a "conspiracy". From the government's own mouth:
"As a part of the alleged scheme, unrealistic and unattainable earnings goals were set for Enron, based on analysts’ expectations rather than on actual or reasonably achievable business results. When, as expected within the company, Enron consistently fell short of those goals, Lay, Skilling, Causey and others allegedly orchestrated a series of accounting gimmicks designed to make up the shortfall between actual and predicted results. Enron then announced publicly that it had met or exceeded analysts’ expectations when, as Lay, Skilling and Causey allegedly knew, it made its numbers only by engaging in fraud. The indictment also alleges that Lay, Skilling and Causey made false and misleading representations about Enron’s finances and business operations to analysts, at press conferences, in SEC filings and elsewhere."
None of those things are illegal when investors are making money. They happen every day in America so that people's 401k's, employee pensions, CEO's bank accounts everyone else gets rich. However, when those schemes fall apart, then they become illegal.
Unless of course you're not a CEO, then it doesn't matter, right?
I am sorry - it says he was convicted of fraud, making false statements and orchestrating accounting gimmicks.
and yet you use, even bolden, these statements to show that he did not falsify. Do you need a dictionary?
This analogy makes no sense. A muggie doesn't participate willfully in his mugging. These investors did. They handed over their money willingly based on nothing more than empty promises.
Yes he does. He is participating by going on to the street. Just like investing money is a risk. Don't you even get your own logic. Sheesh!
He is promised by the community leaders and police that he/she will be safe.
I am sorry - it says he was convicted of fraud, making false statements and orchestrating accounting gimmicks.
and yet you use, even bolden, these statements to show that he did not falsify. Do you need a dictionary?
Do you understand the difference between a "gimmick" and a "crime"??? Do you understand the difference between "breaking a promise" and "fraud"??? I'm not the one who needs a dictionary.
A crime is an objective standard of behavior deemed unnacceptable by society. The problem with this entire case is that their "crime" is only a crime when people lose money. The true crime being tried in this case was the loss of money, and the trial was the process of finding someone to blame for the poor decisions of the investing public. And then those same people have the gall to complain about greed.
If you (or anyone else here) has a 401k or any stock that has made money in the past 4-5 years, odds are that the gains they achieved were based on similar "gimmicks" and "frauds". Yet nothing is done about it. People refuse to learn the lesson because no one thinks they're at fault for funding those gimmicks and sanctioning those frauds. And if you think the Enron fallout was bad, just wait until half of this country experiences much of the same with their 401ks.
But hey, believe what you want man. Hang anyone you'd like. Just don't be surprised when snake oil turns out to be exactly that.
Do you understand the difference between a "gimmick" and a "crime"??? Do you understand the difference between "breaking a promise" and "fraud"??? I'm not the one who needs a dictionary.
A crime is an objective standard of behavior deemed unnacceptable by society. The problem with this entire case is that their "crime" is only a crime when people lose money. The true crime being tried in this case was the loss of money, and the trial was the process of finding someone to blame for the poor decisions of the investing public. And then those same people have the gall to complain about greed.
If you (or anyone else here) has a 401k or any stock that has made money in the past 4-5 years, odds are that the gains they achieved were based on similar "gimmicks" and "frauds". Yet nothing is done about it. People refuse to learn the lesson because no one thinks they're at fault for funding those gimmicks and sanctioning those frauds. And if you think the Enron fallout was bad, just wait until half of this country experiences much of the same with their 401ks.
Lay falsified official document in order to illegally move money from the possession of his employees and stockholders. This in very similar to sneaking into their offices while they are at lunch and stealing money from their desk.
No, you're being sarcastic, which is quite your right.
I'm simply using the logic posted by a certain poster...research, prepare, research...simple as that...it's not that hard to read other peoples minds...
YES!!! He did willfully walk to the store. Enron's employees willfully invested their money.
exactly my point...everyone should know what others are doing everywhere at anytime....be a mindreader, soothsayer, and regular Nostradamus...if someone is going to lie to you, you should know about it ahead of time...
Comments
That's odd because I'd be the one handing over the money for it.
Yes there is -- not buying another shitburger just because someone tells me it's a hamburger.
I do grasp it. The problem with your analogy is everyone involved got exactly what they payed for -- unreasonable risk.
I certainly understand it was against the law. I just don't understand why your laws are only enforced when people lose money, and the inherent irony of your hatred of greed.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Step right up.....corporate America's next "victim".
You may have been reading another publication, but I don't recally anyone paying Ken to steal their money.
You're right. They paid Ken Lay to turn their money into more money. But they never bothered to ask Ken Lay how he planned to do that, and they never attached any terms to their gift to him. And they took his empty promises as proof of their genius and poured more money into that hole. And when their Midas proved to be another fraud, they were the first to scream "GREED!!!"
No actually there were promises. There were accounting reports and various other annual reports that were falsified, and were independantly audited by an accounting firm who falsified the audits.
Those were promises.
I'm not sure which is funnier. The broad support for corporate america because one company pays you well or that you are a supporter of Bill O'lyer.
They weren't falsified. They described exactly what was going on, based on the standards in place. People just assumed that the numbers were healthy. Obviously they were not.
And when you break a promise, are you thrown in jail?
They were falsified.. which is why he was convicted of a crime.
Promise was your word.
I find it quite funny that you keep pegging some blame on the empolyees???? Just for the record my friend. My girlfriends company got taken over by a nice Yank corp. and they force them to buy into the company. Tell me again where they are taking a risk themselves. Yeah I thought so. They tank and all their money just disappears. And they had no choice. Really easy to comprehend, I would think. We all know who the crook is and for some reason you are just not accepting it. Is he your uncle?
They don't force them to buy into the company. First of all, the employees can work elsewhere.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
It seems blamming everthing that happens to everyone is convenient for those that fare well in this chaotic society.. at least for those that fell into and acceptable pod.. this way they can tell themselves they earned it.
Yes. Good jobs just fall from the sky. Shall I bring in the forms and send them to you to prove I am right? I think I know what she tells me and what I read.
Between you and farfrom thinking the world is a rosy peach. Geez I need to meet you two in real life. Just to see.........................
Just as nobody forces men to buy capris or the insults they may ingest. So you may have a point somewhere in your perfect world you live in.
No, Ken Lay is not my uncle.
The rest of your statement makes little sense. What money "disappeared", and who had "no choice"?
Can you tell me how I didn't earn what I have? Who did I steal it from?
exactly...people have a choice...good paying jobs are everywhere and people can leave at any time, just check your local paper. So what if one has bills and a family...hey, if another company takes over, the employee should have researched the situation, forseen the takeover, and been prepared...simple as that...
just the other day, a fella was mugged in broad daylight, while walking to the store...I place blame on the muggie, since he should have been perpared for the random mugger to jump him...he should have taken a different route, or drove a car, a taxi perhaps...or he should have not been so greedy for wanting a gallon of milk....what a dumbass, I say...
No, i wouldn't tell you that.. You'd need a whole new foundation.. additionally you'd wouldn't be able to hear it.
No, he was convicted of securities fraud and making false statements to a bank. He was convicted not of doctoring financial records, but of participating in a "conspiracy". From the government's own mouth:
"As a part of the alleged scheme, unrealistic and unattainable earnings goals were set for Enron, based on analysts’ expectations rather than on actual or reasonably achievable business results. When, as expected within the company, Enron consistently fell short of those goals, Lay, Skilling, Causey and others allegedly orchestrated a series of accounting gimmicks designed to make up the shortfall between actual and predicted results. Enron then announced publicly that it had met or exceeded analysts’ expectations when, as Lay, Skilling and Causey allegedly knew, it made its numbers only by engaging in fraud. The indictment also alleges that Lay, Skilling and Causey made false and misleading representations about Enron’s finances and business operations to analysts, at press conferences, in SEC filings and elsewhere."
None of those things are illegal when investors are making money. They happen every day in America so that people's 401k's, employee pensions, CEO's bank accounts everyone else gets rich. However, when those schemes fall apart, then they become illegal.
Unless of course you're not a CEO, then it doesn't matter, right?
The word is couldn't, not wouldn't.
I'd love to hear it.
Are you suggesting that a company owes a job in perpetuity to the employee?
This analogy makes no sense. A muggie doesn't participate willfully in his mugging. These investors did. They handed over their money willingly based on nothing more than empty promises.
they were swindled.... robbed.. and you say its their fault.
Why don't you start from the beginning?
I don't say its their fault. I say it's partly their fault. Don't you understand that not everything is us vs them???
not at all, the employee is fully to blame for not researching the possibility the company they work for may be taken over and they may be forced into changes by their new company leaders...an employee should and must be perpaired...why should an employee, who shows up each day, completes their assigned job duties, and works hard, expect anything...I was agreeing with you...they are to blame for not seeing into the future...
oh, it does make sense...the muggie should have known a mugger was going to steal from them...the muggie should have researched his route, and had the forsight to see a potential problem...therefore, he willfully walked to the store...how hard is it to understand this...geez...
No, you're being sarcastic, which is quite your right.
But aren't you saying that a CEO is???
Not really, no.
Not really, no.
YES!!! He did willfully walk to the store. Enron's employees willfully invested their money.
That's what I'm asking.
I am sorry - it says he was convicted of fraud, making false statements and orchestrating accounting gimmicks.
and yet you use, even bolden, these statements to show that he did not falsify. Do you need a dictionary?
Yes he does. He is participating by going on to the street. Just like investing money is a risk. Don't you even get your own logic. Sheesh!
He is promised by the community leaders and police that he/she will be safe.
Do you understand the difference between a "gimmick" and a "crime"??? Do you understand the difference between "breaking a promise" and "fraud"??? I'm not the one who needs a dictionary.
A crime is an objective standard of behavior deemed unnacceptable by society. The problem with this entire case is that their "crime" is only a crime when people lose money. The true crime being tried in this case was the loss of money, and the trial was the process of finding someone to blame for the poor decisions of the investing public. And then those same people have the gall to complain about greed.
If you (or anyone else here) has a 401k or any stock that has made money in the past 4-5 years, odds are that the gains they achieved were based on similar "gimmicks" and "frauds". Yet nothing is done about it. People refuse to learn the lesson because no one thinks they're at fault for funding those gimmicks and sanctioning those frauds. And if you think the Enron fallout was bad, just wait until half of this country experiences much of the same with their 401ks.
But hey, believe what you want man. Hang anyone you'd like. Just don't be surprised when snake oil turns out to be exactly that.
Lay falsified official document in order to illegally move money from the possession of his employees and stockholders. This in very similar to sneaking into their offices while they are at lunch and stealing money from their desk.
That is stealing.
as I said, you won't hear.
I'm simply using the logic posted by a certain poster...research, prepare, research...simple as that...it's not that hard to read other peoples minds...
huh...?
oh, yes, really...
oh, yes, really....
exactly my point...everyone should know what others are doing everywhere at anytime....be a mindreader, soothsayer, and regular Nostradamus...if someone is going to lie to you, you should know about it ahead of time...
perhaps you should do some more research...