overnight bombing raid aimed at civilians

darkcrow

shiraz wrote:

It really is not the same thing, because Hizbullah aren't just threatening the "people inside the bank" (btw, in this case we're talking about people who support them), but it is mainly threatening to kill everyone outside "the bank" and actually is trying its best to do so.
.

isnt that what israel is doing? they are not just threatening hezbollah but infact the population of Lebenon.. they dropped flyers to the people of southern lebenon warning them if they didnt leave then they would be at risk of being killed.

israel says they are just defending themselves. hezbollah say they are doing the same. both sides need to stand down and stop murdering each other.

inmytree

it's really funny how he anology is attack because it doesn't fit your line of thinking....

let's go through it again:

Hezbollah is among/next to/hiding within the civilian population = a bank robber (bad guy) enters a bank (civilian population) and holds the place up...

so if it's ok to bomb the homes of civilians in lebanon to kill hezbollah, it must be ok to kill those in the bank to kill the bank robber...right...

thinking...try it, you'll may like it....

PaperPlates

inmytree wrote:

it's really funny how he anology is attack because it doesn't fit your line of thinking....

let's go through it again:

Hezbollah is among/next to/hiding within the civilian population = a bank robber (bad guy) enters a bank (civilian population) and holds the place up...

so if it's ok to bomb the homes of civilians in lebanon to kill hezbollah, it must be ok to kill those in the bank to kill the bank robber...right...

thinking...try it, you'll may like it....

Hezbollah isn't trying to rob banks. Your analogy sucks, and is being attacked, becaue it sucks.

inmytree

PaperPlates wrote:

Hezbollah isn't trying to rob banks. Your analogy sucks, and is being attacked, becaue it sucks.

I'm sorry thinking makes your head hurt....it explains your blind hatred...

PaperPlates

inmytree wrote:

I'm sorry thinking makes your head hurt....it explains your blind hatred...

Right back at you.

The only thing I have blind hatred for is shitty analogies.

bootlegger10

inmytree wrote:

it's really funny how he anology is attack because it doesn't fit your line of thinking....

let's go through it again:

Hezbollah is among/next to/hiding within the civilian population = a bank robber (bad guy) enters a bank (civilian population) and holds the place up...

so if it's ok to bomb the homes of civilians in lebanon to kill hezbollah, it must be ok to kill those in the bank to kill the bank robber...right...

thinking...try it, you'll may like it....

I realize what you are trying to say with your analogy. Unfortunately, it doesn't hold up. Hezbollah (bad guy) isn't terrorizing the bank (civilian population), they are terrorizing Israel. Israel told the bank hostages (civilians) to get out of town. Also, it's not money the terrorists are after. It's the life of civilian's in Israel. The complete destruction of Israel.

It is Hezbollah's fault for setting up shop within the civilian population. Until the younger Muslim's decide to take control of their countries away from these religious and political zealots, they'll continue to take these civilian casualties. If someone were to go to war with the American military, guess what? They would attack bases that are separated from the civilian population. Hezbollah is a group of cowards hiding behind children, Syria, and Iran.

Milhouse VanHouten

monkey spanker wrote:

its hard to believe that civilians die when terrorist groups hide their munitions and themselves in with the civilian population..oh wait, no its not.

Israel has admitted that the main building destroyed in Qana was not a target and that their bombs "missed" the intended target.

shiraz

darkcrow wrote:

isnt that what israel is doing? they are not just threatening hezbollah but infact the population of Lebenon.. they dropped flyers to the people of southern lebenon warning them if they didnt leave then they would be at risk of being killed.

israel says they are just defending themselves. hezbollah say they are doing the same. both sides need to stand down and stop murdering each other.

Not the same thing, The IDF is not working out of civilian populated villages, Hizbullah is. That's why most attempts of killing Hizbullah people ended up with killing civilians as well. It's not right, but that's the way it is, unfortunately.

Also, the IDF is Israel official army, Hizbullah is a terror organization who took over southern Lebanon and is doing whatever it wants (Please, read this INTERVIEW with Hizbullah men: http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,1832931,00.html).

In any case, both sides are to blame - Hizbullah for starting this whole nightmare just because, and Israel for over-reacting (though AN action was unavoidable and justified).

bootlegger10

Milhouse VanHouten wrote:

Israel has admitted that the main building destroyed in Qana was not a target and that their bombs "missed" the intended target.

Still doesn't change the fact that Hezbollah chooses to shoot their weapons in civilian areas. They should expect if they are going to shoot them that they are going to be retaliated against. And not all missiles are going to hit their targets. Hezbollah knew this, and guess what? They still tried to use the civilians as a shield. Because they knew that would give Israel a harder time when it fought back, and would give them bad publicity. It would also make people like you feel sympathy for them, instead of being angry at them for not caring about their own people, and using them as pawns.

Milhouse VanHouten

bootlegger10 wrote:

Still doesn't change the fact that Hezbollah chooses to shoot their weapons in civilian areas. They should expect if they are going to shoot them that they are going to be retaliated against. And not all missiles are going to hit their targets. Hezbollah knew this, and guess what? They still tried to use the civilians as a shield. Because they knew that would give Israel a harder time when it fought back, and would give them bad publicity. It would also make people like you feel sympathy for them, instead of being angry at them for not caring about their own people, and using them as pawns.

I'm not taking sides on this, mostly because of the fact that I don't see where either side can claim any kind of justification or moral high ground after the shit they've both pulled.

"Well, they did it too!!"

Sorry, but that's a child's excuse. Hezbollah places their weapons/infrastructure within civilian areas for express purpose of ensuring sympathy-generating civilian casualties. They do this because they KNOW Israel will still strike them. If they're daring Israel to kill Lebanese children and Israel goes ahead and does it, I'm not sure how anyone can make a moral arguement for either side.

shiraz

Milhouse VanHouten wrote:

Sorry, but that's a child's excuse. Hezbollah places their weapons/infrastructure within civilian areas for express purpose of ensuring sympathy-generating civilian casualties. They do this because they KNOW Israel will still strike them. If they're daring Israel to kill Lebanese children and Israel goes ahead and does it, I'm not sure how anyone can make a moral arguement for either side.

The word 'still' is not that acurate. There are lots of times when Israel knows civilians would be involved, and doesn't strike back. Other than that, I agree with you.

NMyTree

Israel is fighting a militia that is entrenched in the civilian population.

They ( Hizbullah ) have their fighters, weapons, ammunition, bunkers, homes, families all intertwined there. They use the civilian population as a sheild, as a cover and as pawns in their strategy.

Without a doubt a certain percentage of the civilian population is complicit in their operations.

This strategy, in strategic terms, can be viewed as brilliant. But, this strategy also breaks and ignores dozens of laws and ethics regarding human rights which protect innocent civilians, in the business of war.

Ultimately, this whole mess is a disturbing and sad -man-made disaster.

I don't advocate what Israel is doing and how they are doing it.

While I too hold similar Idealisms, idealisitc notions of everyone simply laying down their arms, are drowned in fantasy, not reality.

But I also have a hard time figuring out any other way for them to approach this. At least not an approach that realistically all sides can agree to and follow through with.

Hizbullah does not want peace and nor will they cease their attacks, if Israel does so.

What Israel is doing is sickening and a downright outrage, but Hizbullah's approach and strategy is equally sickening and in my opinion, even more of an outrage; because they are manipulating and using civilians, specifically as pawns.



The words of some Hizbullah fighters, provided by one of our members:

" Standing at the window, he points to the banana plantations between us and the blue Mediterranean. "I have fought for years in these groves. We used to sit and wait for them [the Israelis] to make a move and then we would hit. They always moved too quickly, too soon."

All over the hills of south Lebanon hundreds of men like Sayed Ali and his comrades are waiting - some in bunkers, some in farm houses - for the Israeli troops to arrive. Sayed Ali and his men spend most of their time in the building where his apartment is, moving only at night.

"We stay put and we don't move till we get our orders, and this is why we are not like any other militia. A militiaman will fire whenever he likes at whatever he likes," explains one of the men, who says he has been involved in firing Katyusha rockets into northern Israel. "We have specific orders. Even when we fire rockets we know when and where [to fire] and each of the men manning the launchers runs to a specific hiding place after firing the rockets."

He says Hizbullah fighters expect the site of a rocket launch to be hit by an Israeli airstrike or shell within 10 to 15 minutes.

Another of the men, who says he is Sayed Ali's brother, explains how Hizbullah teaches its fighters patience: "During our training we spend days in empty buildings without talking to anyone or doing anything. They tell me go and sit in that building, and I go and sit there and wait."

According to Ali, Hizbullah operates as "a state within the state", with its own hospitals, social organisations and social security system. "But we are also an Islamic resistance movement, an indoctrinated army," he adds. "I would go and knock the door at someone and say we need $50,000, he would give me [that] because they trust us."

The fighting force of the organisation is divided into two: the "active" group, whose task is to serve in Hizbullah, and the reserve, or Ta'abi'a, as it is known in Arabic. The active fighters get monthly pay. The reserves are called on only in time of war, and receive bonuses but no regular pay. A third section, the Ansar, comprises people who support or are supported by the organisation.

Ali, the commander of Hizbullah in his village, and his men are part of the active force, and their orders are to wait for further orders. "Hizbullah hasn't even mobilised all its active fighters, and the Israelis are calling their reserve units," he said.

Hizbullah prides itself on its secretiveness and discipline. "We don't take anyone who knocks at our door and says 'I want to join'. We raise our fighters. We take them when they are young kids and raise them to become Hizbullah fighters. Every fighter we have believes that the ultimate form of being is martyrdom." The three men nod their assent.


"Every one of those fighters is a true believer, he has been not only trained to use guns and weapons but [indoctrinated] in the Shia faith and the Husseini beliefs," Ali says.

He and his fellow fighters have been preparing for the latest conflict with the Israelis for years and he acknowledges the support received from Iran.

"When we defeated them in 2000 we did that with [Katyusha] rockets. We had six years to prepare for this day - the Americans are sending laser-guided missiles to the Israelis, what's wrong if the Iranians help us? When the Syrians were here we would get stuff through their supply lines, now it's more difficult."

For Ali and his comrades, the latest conflict is a war of survival not only for Hizbullah but for the whole Shia community. It is not only as a war with Israel, their enemy for decades, but also with the Sunni community. Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt have all expressed fears of Iranian domination over the Middle East.

"If Israel comes out victorious from this conflict, this will be a victory for the Sunnis and they will take the Shia community back in history dozens of years to the time when we were only allowed to work as garbage collectors in this country. The Shia will all die before letting this happen again."

He says that even if the international community calls on Hizbullah to disarm as part of a peace deal, he and his men will not lay down their arms. "This war is episode two in disarming Hizbullah. First they tried to do it through the Lebanese government and the UN. When they failed, the Americans asked the Israelis to do the job."

And even when the battle with the Israelis is over, he adds menacingly, Hizbullah will have other battles to fight. "The real battle is after the end of this war. We will have to settle score with the Lebanese politicians. We also have the best security and intelligence apparatus in this country, and we can reach any of those people who are speaking against us now. Let's finish with the Israelis and then we will settle scores later. "


The conflict runs much deeper than some people may realize. This isn't just about Israel. There is great discrimination, contempt, animosity and violence (always has been) between the different sects of Islam's believers/followers.

Even if Israel picked up and moved the hell out of the Middle East, the violence, hate and ideological crusade by radical, fundamentalist Muslims and their charming, manipulative, intolerant, unaccepting, hypocritical, self-righteous, violent interpretation of Islam-would continue along it's merry march to liberate you and me, from the burden of freedom and individuality.

Just ask Thomas Klocek , former Professor at DePaul University.


http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=11776


http://www.thefire.org/index.php/article/5671.html


http://www.postchronicle.com/commentary/article_21230237.shtml

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=News&id=2815028

PaperPlates

The conflict runs much deeper than some people may realize. This isn't just about Israel. There is great discrimination, contempt, animosity and violence (always has been) between the different sects of Islam's believers/followers.

Even if Israel picked up and moved the hell out of the Middle East, the violence, hate and ideological crusade by radical, fundamentalist Muslims and their charming, manipulative, intolerant, unaccepting, hypocritical, self-righteous, violent interpretation of Islam-would continue along it's merry march to free you and me, from the burden of freedom and individuality.

True True True.

NMyTree

Milhouse VanHouten wrote:

Hezbollah places their weapons/infrastructure within civilian areas for express purpose of ensuring sympathy-generating civilian casualties. They do this because they KNOW Israel will still strike them. If they're daring Israel to kill Lebanese children and Israel goes ahead and does it, I'm not sure how anyone can make a moral arguement for either side.

Exactly.

It is a sickening, disturbing and vomit-inducing strategy.

Neither side deserves defending. Both sides deserve severe criticism and punishment.

SoonForgotten2

shiraz wrote:

In any case, both sides are to blame - Hizbullah for starting this whole nightmare just because, and Israel for over-reacting (though AN action was unavoidable and justified).

Were the two soldiers NOT captured in Lebanon? If so I don't know how you can cry for Israel's right to defend itself when Lebanon gets blasted to hell for doing the same thing on a much, much smaller scale.

Puck78

this civilians/children slaughter is also a effect of the lack of an immadiate ceasefire decision that could have come out from the rome conference of last wednesday. So, i would point as responsible, not only Israel, but also the USA and the UK, that voted against the ceasefire.

shiraz

SoonForgotten2 wrote:

Were the two soldiers NOT captured in Lebanon? If so I don't know how you can cry for Israel's right to defend itself when Lebanon gets blasted to hell for doing the same thing on a much, much smaller scale.

the two soldiers were captured in Israel, after Hizbullah cross the Israeli border.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

shiraz wrote:

In any case, both sides are to blame - Hizbullah for starting this whole nightmare just because, and Israel for over-reacting (though AN action was unavoidable and justified).

We had every right to act against Hizbullah, period. Not the way we did, but AN act was unavoidable . Please learn how to read and don't put words in my mouth.

NMyTree

SoonForgotten2 wrote:

Were the two soldiers NOT captured in Lebanon? If so I don't know how you can cry for Israel's right to defend itself when Lebanon gets blasted to hell for doing the same thing on a much, much smaller scale.

I've heard several reports claim that Hizbullah came into Israel and killed eight soldiers and kidnapped two. In Israel.

shiraz

NMyTree wrote:

I've heard several reports claim that Hizbullah came into Israel and killed eight soldiers and kidnapped two. In Israel.

More than several, almost everyone in the media, including arab news channels and even Hizbullah themselfs claimed the same thing, so I don't get why people are still coming up with these twisted facts.

PaperPlates

shiraz wrote:

More than several, almost everyone in the media, including arab news channels and even Hizbullah themselfs claimed the same thing, so I don't get why people are still coming up with these twisted facts.

R-E-A-L-I-T-Y is priceless to me.