...
So... if in the 'War On Drugs'... the DEA swoops down on your neighborhood and burns down a cocaine safe house next to yours and in the ensuing gunfight, some of their stray bullets strike your kids and kills them... and the fire spreads to your roof and burns your house down... you wouldn't have a problem with the collateral damage because now you neighborhood is clear of one more drug dealer? You kids are only collateral damage and their lives don't mean anything in the larger 'War On Drugs'... right?
your missing the point. did those DEA officers kill my kid on purpose? did they target my kid and kill him based on the DEA policy of killing innocent civillians?
im glad you think its funny. so a sucide bomber killing civillians is justified becuase after all its AMERICAS fault they are there in the first place.?
this website proves nothing. how can you prove these pics are from US bombs? we use presicion GPS guided bombs and very specific enemy targets. yes there is collaroral damage and civillains are killed and hurt. but NOT on purpose is my point. you dont get it do you. terrorists purposely find as many innocent civillians as it can and blow them up. American does not.
Actually i was laughing at your comments, not the dead people, thought you'd be able to pick that up, guess not. You dont get it, the precision bombs dont work as well as you think. You can tell me all you want that soldiers dont intend to kill civilians, it's true for the most part. You can't tell me that this goverment that's based on "moral values" should not be called out for what it's done. 43000 people dead, thats a baseball stadium!
DORA FARMS, Iraq, May 28, 2003
Wreckage of the Iraqi presidential compound at Dora Farms bombed on the opening day of the Iraq war. (CBS)
Quote
"When we came out here the primary thing they were looking for was an underground facility, or bodies, forensics. And basically what they saw was giant holes created. No underground facilities, no bodies."
Col. Tim Madere
(CBS) The mystery of what happened to Saddam Hussein begins at a palace compound called Dora Farms on the southern outskirts of Baghdad. The war began here ten weeks ago when the U.S. dropped bombs and cruise missiles in an attempt to kill the Iraqi dictator.
CBS News became the first news organization to visit Dora Farms.
CBS National Security Correspondent David Martin found that U.S. intelligence was wrong about one crucial fact and the strike was not a complete success despite Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's March 21 statement that "the strike on that leadership headquarters was successful."
And despite comments by the Air Force general who commanded the strike that if Saddam was there he was probably killed.
No one has searched Dora Farms more carefully than Tim Madere, a U.S. Army colonel assigned the task of searching sensitive sites.
Madere says no bodies have been found here.
The Air Force dropped four 2,000-pound bombs on the site because intelligence said there was a bunker complex hidden beneath the buildings. But Madere has yet to find it.
The compound has been searched three times – once by the CIA and twice by Madere, trying to find Saddam's DNA.
"When we came out here the primary thing they were looking for was an underground facility, or bodies, forensics," says Madere. "And basically what they saw was giant holes created. No underground facilities, no bodies."
Every structure in the compound was destroyed, except one building – the main palace – hidden behind a wall topped by electrified barbed wire. It's a shambles, windows have been blown out, but it is not destroyed.
Madere says a person in the house "could have survived."
One weapon clearly missed the compound. Others landed just outside the wall, destroying other buildings.
This doesn't solve the mystery of what happened to Saddam, but the clues at Dora Farms leave no doubt he could have survived.
Look at the last two paragraphs, and this is was decapitation strike too. What it doesnt mention is the civilians that were killed as result of this. You can learn more if you watch "Why we Fight" it's available for rental.
your missing the point. did those DEA officers kill my kid on purpose? did they target my kid and kill him based on the DEA policy of killing innocent civillians?
the answer is no
...
The point is colateral damage. The terrorists neighbors aren't targeting their neighbor... they live in close proximity. The laser guided munition will hit the specific house... but, will that house be the only one affected? Bombs go **BOOM** and shit flies apart and the bomb doesn't know where the property line ends.
The DEA Officers didn't target your kids... the laser guided munition didn't target the neighbor's house... both are acceptable collateral damage? If the end result was your dead kids... you are basically saying you would accept it as an accident, because those things happen in a war... whether it be a war on terror or a war on drugs.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
lol i think its great how we told them to follow us.
...
What is so great about that?
We threaten them to help us.. then, we shovel YOUR tax dollars into their pockets to look for someone they see as a hero. Do you seriously think that makes any sense?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
im glad you think its funny. so a sucide bomber killing civillians is justified becuase after all its AMERICAS fault they are there in the first place.?
this website proves nothing. how can you prove these pics are from US bombs? we use presicion GPS guided bombs and very specific enemy targets. yes there is collaroral damage and civillains are killed and hurt. but NOT on purpose is my point. you dont get it do you. terrorists purposely find as many innocent civillians as it can and blow them up. American does not.
Oh yes that makes the US so much better... sure there's collatoral damage (innocent people killed, children and women too) but it's not on purpose, I mean wow that's way better...
...
What is so great about that?
We threaten them to help us.. then, we shovel YOUR tax dollars into their pockets to look for someone they see as a hero. Do you seriously think that makes any sense?
We used them to take out the islamic government of the taliban...i see nothign wrong with that
Buddy, i'm all for stomping the crap out of the terrorists...but we've screwed it up because everybody is too damn worried about prisoner torture and civilian deaths...we should be letting the german sheppards chew on the prisoner's nuts like play toys until they cough up intel....but o no, cant do that...thats inhumane..i didnt notice anything humane about 9/11....we need to bomb them back to the stone age..just as promised to pakistan...and then pull the hell out...and if they screw with us again...then we dont send in troops, we just carpet bomb the whole country and put up a walmart!
Well keep in mind terrorists are fighting a war, so don't come crying when they chop your brother's head off, when they murder your wife and kids or bomb a public building near you...
It's a war for both sides so the same rules apply...
We used them to take out the islamic government of the taliban...i see nothign wrong with that
...
HUH??? What war with the Taliban in Afghanistan were you watching?
Pakistan didn't do SHIT in Afghanistan. In Pakistan, people named their new born sons, 'Usama'. And threatening them into joining us... is that the definition of the 'Coalition of the Willing'?
You really need to pay closer attention.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
HUH??? What war were you watching?
Pakistan didn't do SHIT in Afghanistan. In Pakistan, people named their new born sons, 'Usama'. And threatening them into joining us... is that the definition of the 'Coalition of the Willing'?
You really need to pay closer attention.
Umm pakisatan was used for strategic purposes...u didnt know that?
Well keep in mind terrorists are fighting a war, so don't come crying when they chop your brother's head off, when they murder your wife and kids or bomb a public building near you...
It's a war for both sides so the same rules apply...
Umm pakisatan was used for strategic purposes...u didnt know that?
...
You can't make just up shit... it don't work that way.
What 'Strategic Purposes'?
Wait.. we set up Command and Control Centers there, right? Strike forces staged there? Air bases used?
Oh, that's right... nothing. That's a good strategy... if you're in the war between two morons.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I think the United States is involved in too many world issues as it is...it should step back and let people decide their own fate. They have a pretty shitty track record when it comes to that sort of thing.
In many ways the US is damned if they don't and damned if it does, if it were to walk away from all the world issue's and problems in the world they would suffer immense critism, similar to the critism they are recieving now for being to involved.
As far as the Muslim Terrorist go, I personally believe they want the whole world to convert to Muslim, they basically have said that a few weeks back when the al quaida number 2 guy called on Americans to convert.
As far as I'm concerned, practice your religion however you want, just don't preach about, because religion is mostly to blame for far too many problems.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
...
You can't make just up shit... it don't work that way.
What 'Strategic Purposes'?
Wait.. we set up Command and Control Centers there, right? Strike forces staged there? Air bases used?
Oh, that's right... nothing. That's a good strategy... if you're in the war between two morons.
Current Developments
Already events are moving fast. On Thursday, September 13, Pakistan closed its airspace for several hours grounding all commercial flights. Speculation is rife that this might have been done to enable the United States to prepare to deploy a small group of forces at northern military bases in Pakistan. A day earlier, on September 12, U.S. Army General Tommy Franks, commander-in-chief of U.S. Central Command, arrived in Pakistan to discuss intelligence cooperation and possible military action. At the same time, Lt. General Mahmood Ahmed, chief of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence, met with Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage. Furthermore, reportedly, Pakistan has frozen the accounts of the Taliban, has deployed an estimated 45,000 troops on high alert along the border with Afghanistan, and has provided updated information on Bin Laden's whereabouts. The United States has deployed two carrier battle groups in theater, which normally include fighter-bombers, and nuclear-powered attack submarines, battle cruisers, and destroyers armed with land-attack cruise missiles. And, for their part, the Taliban apparently are moving into battle positions.
In many ways the US is damned if they don't and damned if it does, if it were to walk away from all the world issue's and problems in the world they would suffer immense critism, similar to the critism they are recieving now for being to involved.
As far as the Muslim Terrorist go, I personally believe they want the whole world to convert to Muslim, they basically have said that a few weeks back when the al quaida number 2 guy called on Americans to convert.
As far as I'm concerned, practice your religion however you want, just don't preach about, because religion is mostly to blame for far too many problems.
I agree with you, the problem with some people on this board (the extremist) is that they cant differntiate between muslim and muslim extremist.
...
The point is colateral damage. The terrorists neighbors aren't targeting their neighbor... they live in close proximity. The laser guided munition will hit the specific house... but, will that house be the only one affected? Bombs go **BOOM** and shit flies apart and the bomb doesn't know where the property line ends.
The DEA Officers didn't target your kids... the laser guided munition didn't target the neighbor's house... both are acceptable collateral damage? If the end result was your dead kids... you are basically saying you would accept it as an accident, because those things happen in a war... whether it be a war on terror or a war on drugs.
If I'm not mistaken, we have been dropping leaflets letting friendlies know what is coming...If they choose to stay or dont give up an accurate location of known terrorists and they catch some schrapnel...then thats sad, but its acceptable...as far as the war on drugs, i have worked as a medic on a police swat team and if a raid is going to take place and there are friendlies (neighbors) in close proximity to the strike zone, they are removed if possible prior to the mission being undertaken, if possible. generally crack houses arent just set ablaze...there is usally a standoff with the bad guys before any type of less than lethal weapon is used that may start a fire...in the interim....neighbors are usually removed to safety. just a couple of tidbits of info...
_____________________
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!
- Benjamin Franklin
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die, I want to go where they went.
-Will Rogers
_____________________
In many ways the US is damned if they don't and damned if it does, if it were to walk away from all the world issue's and problems in the world they would suffer immense critism, similar to the critism they are recieving now for being to involved.
As far as the Muslim Terrorist go, I personally believe they want the whole world to convert to Muslim, they basically have said that a few weeks back when the al quaida number 2 guy called on Americans to convert.
As far as I'm concerned, practice your religion however you want, just don't preach about, because religion is mostly to blame for far too many problems.
i think a lot people realise that america needs to be part of world issues, its just how they do it. americans helping by pressuring the sudanese govt to let un peacekeeprs go in to protect the people of darfur is a great use of their influence/power... the us inventing inteligence and lying about a countries links to al quida is a great example of what the us should not be doing.
i think also the us needs to stop having double standards. it supports kuwait which until very recently totally banned women from voting. it is only now that they can vote in a very limited way on few issues/elections.
if the us wants to promote democracy, start with its friends. universal sufferage should be promoted first to your friends and then to the world.
If I'm not mistaken, we have been dropping leaflets letting friendlies know what is coming...If they choose to stay or dont give up an accurate location of known terrorists and they catch some schrapnel...then thats sad, but its acceptable...as far as the war on drugs, i have worked as a medic on a police swat team and if a raid is going to take place and there are friendlies (neighbors) in close proximity to the strike zone, they are removed if possible prior to the mission being undertaken, if possible. generally crack houses arent just set ablaze...there is usally a standoff with the bad guys before any type of less than lethal weapon is used that may start a fire...in the interim....neighbors are usually removed to safety. just a couple of tidbits of info...
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Well, no wonder the shit ain't working over there. Has anyone in charge over there ever thought that maybe one of those leaflets were picked up and read by the person or persons we are targeting? if there's no one in the house, why even bother to blow it up? Why not just say, "Dear Terrorist... we will be dropping by to kill you on Saturday, 23Sept2006, sometime between the hours of 8:00 A.M. and 3:00 P.M. Standard Baghdad Time. Please, be sure to be at home so we can insure that your death will occur. Have a nice day". No wonder they're runnig amok over there.
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As for the DEA thing... it was a scenario to illustrate a point that collateral damage in important only if the collaterally damaged is your kid's head. I don't care if it's their military or our military or my police... if one of their weapons kills my family, even if it's an accident that occurs in the suppression of a criminal event... I'm getting upset and I'll be wanting some answers... answers that contain truth.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
As far as the Muslim Terrorist go, I personally believe they want the whole world to convert to Muslim, they basically have said that a few weeks back when the al quaida number 2 guy called on Americans to convert.
you mean how the u.s. wants to spread "democracy" in the middle east?? maybe they should try to be a democracy first, see if it works, then try to spread it.
Another habit says it's in love with you
Another habit says its long overdue
Another habit like an unwanted friend
I'm so happy with my righteous self
Already events are moving fast. On Thursday, September 13, Pakistan closed its airspace for several hours grounding all commercial flights. Speculation is rife that this might have been done to enable the United States to prepare to deploy a small group of forces at northern military bases in Pakistan. A day earlier, on September 12, U.S. Army General Tommy Franks, commander-in-chief of U.S. Central Command, arrived in Pakistan to discuss intelligence cooperation and possible military action. At the same time, Lt. General Mahmood Ahmed, chief of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence, met with Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage. Furthermore, reportedly, Pakistan has frozen the accounts of the Taliban, has deployed an estimated 45,000 troops on high alert along the border with Afghanistan, and has provided updated information on Bin Laden's whereabouts. The United States has deployed two carrier battle groups in theater, which normally include fighter-bombers, and nuclear-powered attack submarines, battle cruisers, and destroyers armed with land-attack cruise missiles. And, for their part, the Taliban apparently are moving into battle positions.
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Guess what?
Iran suspended all air flights as the U.S. ramped up for the invasion of Iraq in 2003. They also shutdown all border crossings... so what? They didn't want their passenger planes blasted from the sky, either.
And Pakistan's 'Support'... other than them sharing their intelligence (which is basically saying, "I don't know") with us... what did they supply us with? Soldiers who's kid's name is 'Usama'.
I think you are thinking of the 'Northern alliance'... some of them were Pakistani. But, they were and are the opium drug lords who hated the Taliban for putting the kibash on their drug trade. Are those the Pakistanis you are talking about?
You may trust them... i trust them as far as i can throw a bulldozer.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Guess what?
Iran suspended all air flights as the U.S. ramped up for the invasion of Iraq in 2003. They also shutdown all border crossings... so what? They didn't want their passenger planes blasted from the sky, either.
And Pakistan's 'Support'... other than them sharing their intelligence (which is basically saying, "I don't know") with us... what did they supply us with? Soldiers who's kid's name is 'Usama'.
I think you are thinking of the 'Northern alliance'... some of them were Pakistani. But, they were and are the opium drug lords who hated the Taliban for putting the kibash on their drug trade. Are those the Pakistanis you are talking about?
You may trust them... i trust them as far as i can throw a bulldozer.
...
A piece on how some Pakistanis feel about Bin Laden:
"Bin Laden has become a folk hero here to many. More than 12,000 Pakistani parents named their newborn sons "Osama" last year. Some 5,700 named their infants "Jihad," hospital officials say."
ref. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/20/pakistan.htm
...
On the Opium Trade in Afghanistan:
"Two weeks ago, the top U.N. anti-drug official aroused new international alarm when he announced here that the cultivation of opium poppies in Afghanistan had increased by 59 percent in the past year. It grew despite a slew of expensive, foreign-funded programs to eradicate poppy fields and motivate Afghan farmers to grow other crops.
Poppy farming, banned in 2000 by the Taliban administration that U.S.-led forces overthrew the following year, quickly revived after the establishment of a U.N.-backed government and has been spreading rapidly ever since. It now accounts for more than half the country's gross national income and provides the raw material for about 75 percent of the world's heroin.
"It's become an industrial production," said Doris Buddenberg, director of the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime here, noting that Afghanistan's opium output this year was a staggering 6,700 tons. Rural poverty, dashed hopes for economic recovery, Taliban blandishments and anti-government sentiment "all added up to more families deciding to grow poppy," she said.
But anti-drug officials and experts here say the expansion of drug smuggling and refining is a far more pernicious problem than poppy farming and could easily turn Afghanistan into another Colombia."
ref. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/18/AR2006091801282.html?nav=rss_world
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Still looking for the timeline regarding Iran. The purpose of the suspension of Iranian air traffic was to prevent the accidentl shoot-down of a commercial aircraft... and so Hussein's pilots could not repeat their actions of 1991... skirt commercial aircraft to avoid getting attacked by coalition fighters as that ran away from the fight.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
interesting thing about "jihad", it's arabic for "struggle" or "striving", I knew a guy here in orlando who's name was "jihad" but he did'nt tell people, he called himself "jake" cause he found it easier.
NEW YORK (AFP) - The United States threatened to bomb Pakistan "back to the stone age" in 2001 unless it cooperated in the US-led war on terror, President Pervez Musharraf said in an interview.
Musharraf, whose support for the US-led invasion of Afghanistan was instrumental in the fall of the hardline Taliban regime after the September 11, 2001 attacks, said the threat came from former deputy secretary of state Richard Armitage.
The Pakistani leader said the comments were delivered to his intelligence director, according to selected transcripts of the interview with CBS television's "60 Minutes" investigative news programme due to be broadcast Sunday.
"The intelligence director told me that (Armitage) said, 'Be prepared to be bombed. Be prepared to go back to the stone age'," Musharraf said.
"I think it was a very rude remark," Musharraf says in the interview. "One has to think and take actions in the interests of the nation, and that's what I did."
Shortly after the September 11 attacks, Pakistan abandoned its support for the Taliban, which was sheltering Al-Qaeda leaders, and became a front-line ally in the US-led "war on terror."
Pakistan has arrested several senior Al-Qaeda members including Khalid Sheikh Mohammad, the alleged mastermind of the 2001 attacks.
The South Asian country has also deployed around 80,000 troops on the rugged border with Afghanistan to hunt pro-Taliban and Al-Qaeda linked militants who sneaked into the area after fleeing the US-led invasion of Afghanistan.
Armitage's alleged threat also demanded that Pakistan turn over border posts and bases for the US military to use in the war in Afghanistan, which ended with the Taliban regime's collapse in late 2001.
Other "ludicrous" demands required Pakistan to suppress domestic expressions of support for militant attacks on US targets, according to the CBS, which produces 60 Minutes.
"If somebody's expressing views, we cannot curb the expression of views," it quoted Musharraf as saying.
In the interview, Musharraf also reveals an embarrassing episode in which former CIA director George Tenet confronted him in 2003 with proof that Pakistan's top nuclear scientist was passing secrets to Libya, Iran and North Korea.
Abdul Qadeer Khan, held as hero in Pakistan for helping to make the country a nuclear power, admitted giving away nuclear secrets in a televised confession in February 2004, exposing a global black market in nuclear technology.
"He (Tenet) took his briefcase out, passed me some papers. It was a centrifuge design with all its numbers and signatures of Pakistan. It was the most embarrassing moment," Musharraf says.
It was only then, he says, that he realised that not only had blueprints been leaked, but that centrifuges themselves -- a crucial technology needed to enrich uranium to weapons grade -- were being passed on, CBS said.
Musharraf denies that anyone in the government or military was aware of the leak.
He pardoned Khan the same month, but the ailing scientist has since lived under virtual house arrest in a leafy diplomatic sector in Islamabad and makes no public appearances.
is this the same intelligence director that the wall street journal wrote wired $100,000 to mohammed atta shortly before 9/11?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
In cooperating in the US-led 'war on terror', the Pakistani government has systematically committed human rights abuses against hundreds of Pakistanis and foreign nationals. As the practice of enforced disappearance has spread, people have been arrested and held incommunicado in secret locations with their detention officially denied. They are at risk of torture and unlawful transfer to third countries.
"The road to Guantánamo very literally starts in Pakistan," said Claudio Cordone, Senior Director of Research at Amnesty International.
"Hundreds of people have been picked up in mass arrests, many have been sold to the USA as 'terrorists' simply on the word of their captor, and hundreds have been transferred to Guantánamo Bay, Bagram Airbase or secret detention centres run by the USA."
The routine practice of offering rewards running to thousands of dollars for unidentified terror suspects facilitated illegal detention and enforced disappearance. Bounty hunters -- including police officers and local people -- have captured individuals of different nationalities, often apparently at random, and sold them into US custody.
More than 85 percent of detainees at Guantánamo Bay were arrested, not by US forces, but by the Afghan Northern Alliance and in Pakistan at a time when rewards of up to US$5,000 were paid for every "terrorist" handed over to the USA. Often the only grounds for holding them were the allegations of their captors, who stood to gain from their arrest. Some 300 people -- previously labelled as "terrorists" and "killers" by the US government -- have since been released from Guantánamo Bay without charge, the majority to Pakistan or Afghanistan.
"Enforced disappearances were almost unheard of in Pakistan before the start of the US-led 'war on terror' -- now they are a growing phenomenon, spreading beyond terror suspects to Baloch and Sindhi nationalists and journalists," said Angelika Pathak, South Asia researcher at Amnesty International.
Many detainees remain unaccounted for, their fate and whereabouts unknown. Three women and five children were arrested alongside Tanzanian terror suspect Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani in Punjab province in July 2004. They included a baby and a 13-year-old Saudi boy called Talha, according to reports. More than two years later, nothing is known about the fate and whereabouts of Talha and the other children and women. Ahmed Ghailani was one of 14 individuals transferred from secret CIA custody to Guantánamo Bay in September 2006.
"These and other children have been detained in Pakistan's pursuit of the 'war on terror' -- and not even the children, let alone the adults, have been presumed innocent and allowed to challenge the legality of their detention," said Angelika Pathak. "Rather, they have spent months and years imprisoned without trial."
Pakistani politicians, media and civil society need to take a stand and hold the government to account so the practice is ended and the fate and whereabouts of all victims clarified.
The non-governmental Human Rights Commission of Pakistan has noted a new tolerance to abuses and suggested it might be attributable to the "impact of the war on terrorism on the public psyche".
Terror suspects held in secret are especially vulnerable to torture in Pakistan. Victims have been hung upside down and beaten and deprived of sleep and food. Agents from other countries, including the USA, appear to have known of, or been present during interrogations of people held in arbitrary and secret detention.
"The Pakistani government must set up a central register of detainees and publish regular lists of all recognised places of detention so that in future nobody can be secretly imprisoned and face the risks of torture and other abuses that secret detention involves," said Angelika Pathak. "Foreign governments, including the US, must investigate all allegations of torture in which their agents may be complicit."
Relatives have few places to turn in searching for those who have been abducted. Police have refused to investigate or register complaints. Those who challenge detentions through the provincial high courts find that security forces deny all knowledge of a person's whereabouts and judges have frequently failed to challenge these denials.
Khalid Mehmood Rashid, a Pakistani national, was handed over to Pakistani officials in South Africa on 6 November 2005 and flown to Pakistan. He has not been seen since. Despite official acknowledgements that he is being held by the Pakistani government, the Ministry of Interior has not responded to his family's inquiries as to where he is being held.
The clandestine nature of the "war on terror" makes it impossible to know exactly how many enforced disappearances, other arbitrary detentions or unlawful killings have been committed in Pakistan, but Pakistani military spokesperson Major-General Shaukat Sultan said in June 2006 that since 2001 some 500 "terrorists" had been killed and over 1,000 had been arrested.
Comments
your missing the point. did those DEA officers kill my kid on purpose? did they target my kid and kill him based on the DEA policy of killing innocent civillians?
the answer is no
Actually i was laughing at your comments, not the dead people, thought you'd be able to pick that up, guess not. You dont get it, the precision bombs dont work as well as you think. You can tell me all you want that soldiers dont intend to kill civilians, it's true for the most part. You can't tell me that this goverment that's based on "moral values" should not be called out for what it's done. 43000 people dead, thats a baseball stadium!
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/dora.htm
http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/05/28/eveningnews/main555948.shtml
At Saddam's Bombed Palace
DORA FARMS, Iraq, May 28, 2003
Wreckage of the Iraqi presidential compound at Dora Farms bombed on the opening day of the Iraq war. (CBS)
Quote
"When we came out here the primary thing they were looking for was an underground facility, or bodies, forensics. And basically what they saw was giant holes created. No underground facilities, no bodies."
Col. Tim Madere
(CBS) The mystery of what happened to Saddam Hussein begins at a palace compound called Dora Farms on the southern outskirts of Baghdad. The war began here ten weeks ago when the U.S. dropped bombs and cruise missiles in an attempt to kill the Iraqi dictator.
CBS News became the first news organization to visit Dora Farms.
CBS National Security Correspondent David Martin found that U.S. intelligence was wrong about one crucial fact and the strike was not a complete success despite Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's March 21 statement that "the strike on that leadership headquarters was successful."
And despite comments by the Air Force general who commanded the strike that if Saddam was there he was probably killed.
No one has searched Dora Farms more carefully than Tim Madere, a U.S. Army colonel assigned the task of searching sensitive sites.
Madere says no bodies have been found here.
The Air Force dropped four 2,000-pound bombs on the site because intelligence said there was a bunker complex hidden beneath the buildings. But Madere has yet to find it.
The compound has been searched three times – once by the CIA and twice by Madere, trying to find Saddam's DNA.
"When we came out here the primary thing they were looking for was an underground facility, or bodies, forensics," says Madere. "And basically what they saw was giant holes created. No underground facilities, no bodies."
Every structure in the compound was destroyed, except one building – the main palace – hidden behind a wall topped by electrified barbed wire. It's a shambles, windows have been blown out, but it is not destroyed.
Madere says a person in the house "could have survived."
One weapon clearly missed the compound. Others landed just outside the wall, destroying other buildings.
This doesn't solve the mystery of what happened to Saddam, but the clues at Dora Farms leave no doubt he could have survived.
Look at the last two paragraphs, and this is was decapitation strike too. What it doesnt mention is the civilians that were killed as result of this. You can learn more if you watch "Why we Fight" it's available for rental.
The point is colateral damage. The terrorists neighbors aren't targeting their neighbor... they live in close proximity. The laser guided munition will hit the specific house... but, will that house be the only one affected? Bombs go **BOOM** and shit flies apart and the bomb doesn't know where the property line ends.
The DEA Officers didn't target your kids... the laser guided munition didn't target the neighbor's house... both are acceptable collateral damage? If the end result was your dead kids... you are basically saying you would accept it as an accident, because those things happen in a war... whether it be a war on terror or a war on drugs.
Hail, Hail!!!
What is so great about that?
We threaten them to help us.. then, we shovel YOUR tax dollars into their pockets to look for someone they see as a hero. Do you seriously think that makes any sense?
Hail, Hail!!!
Oh yes that makes the US so much better... sure there's collatoral damage (innocent people killed, children and women too) but it's not on purpose, I mean wow that's way better...
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We used them to take out the islamic government of the taliban...i see nothign wrong with that
What's wrong with that is when they turn they eyes when they're intelligence finds a terrorist b/c they were bullied.
Well keep in mind terrorists are fighting a war, so don't come crying when they chop your brother's head off, when they murder your wife and kids or bomb a public building near you...
It's a war for both sides so the same rules apply...
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HUH??? What war with the Taliban in Afghanistan were you watching?
Pakistan didn't do SHIT in Afghanistan. In Pakistan, people named their new born sons, 'Usama'. And threatening them into joining us... is that the definition of the 'Coalition of the Willing'?
You really need to pay closer attention.
Hail, Hail!!!
Umm pakisatan was used for strategic purposes...u didnt know that?
Same way i feel about haditha
You can't make just up shit... it don't work that way.
What 'Strategic Purposes'?
Wait.. we set up Command and Control Centers there, right? Strike forces staged there? Air bases used?
Oh, that's right... nothing. That's a good strategy... if you're in the war between two morons.
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't agree with that way of war... because of several reasons.
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In many ways the US is damned if they don't and damned if it does, if it were to walk away from all the world issue's and problems in the world they would suffer immense critism, similar to the critism they are recieving now for being to involved.
As far as the Muslim Terrorist go, I personally believe they want the whole world to convert to Muslim, they basically have said that a few weeks back when the al quaida number 2 guy called on Americans to convert.
As far as I'm concerned, practice your religion however you want, just don't preach about, because religion is mostly to blame for far too many problems.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Current Developments
Already events are moving fast. On Thursday, September 13, Pakistan closed its airspace for several hours grounding all commercial flights. Speculation is rife that this might have been done to enable the United States to prepare to deploy a small group of forces at northern military bases in Pakistan. A day earlier, on September 12, U.S. Army General Tommy Franks, commander-in-chief of U.S. Central Command, arrived in Pakistan to discuss intelligence cooperation and possible military action. At the same time, Lt. General Mahmood Ahmed, chief of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence, met with Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage. Furthermore, reportedly, Pakistan has frozen the accounts of the Taliban, has deployed an estimated 45,000 troops on high alert along the border with Afghanistan, and has provided updated information on Bin Laden's whereabouts. The United States has deployed two carrier battle groups in theater, which normally include fighter-bombers, and nuclear-powered attack submarines, battle cruisers, and destroyers armed with land-attack cruise missiles. And, for their part, the Taliban apparently are moving into battle positions.
I agree with you, the problem with some people on this board (the extremist) is that they cant differntiate between muslim and muslim extremist.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!
- Benjamin Franklin
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die, I want to go where they went.
-Will Rogers
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i think a lot people realise that america needs to be part of world issues, its just how they do it. americans helping by pressuring the sudanese govt to let un peacekeeprs go in to protect the people of darfur is a great use of their influence/power... the us inventing inteligence and lying about a countries links to al quida is a great example of what the us should not be doing.
i think also the us needs to stop having double standards. it supports kuwait which until very recently totally banned women from voting. it is only now that they can vote in a very limited way on few issues/elections.
if the us wants to promote democracy, start with its friends. universal sufferage should be promoted first to your friends and then to the world.
http://www.myspace.com/thelastreel http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=19604327965
Well, no wonder the shit ain't working over there. Has anyone in charge over there ever thought that maybe one of those leaflets were picked up and read by the person or persons we are targeting? if there's no one in the house, why even bother to blow it up? Why not just say, "Dear Terrorist... we will be dropping by to kill you on Saturday, 23Sept2006, sometime between the hours of 8:00 A.M. and 3:00 P.M. Standard Baghdad Time. Please, be sure to be at home so we can insure that your death will occur. Have a nice day". No wonder they're runnig amok over there.
...
As for the DEA thing... it was a scenario to illustrate a point that collateral damage in important only if the collaterally damaged is your kid's head. I don't care if it's their military or our military or my police... if one of their weapons kills my family, even if it's an accident that occurs in the suppression of a criminal event... I'm getting upset and I'll be wanting some answers... answers that contain truth.
Hail, Hail!!!
you mean how the u.s. wants to spread "democracy" in the middle east?? maybe they should try to be a democracy first, see if it works, then try to spread it.
Another habit says its long overdue
Another habit like an unwanted friend
I'm so happy with my righteous self
Guess what?
Iran suspended all air flights as the U.S. ramped up for the invasion of Iraq in 2003. They also shutdown all border crossings... so what? They didn't want their passenger planes blasted from the sky, either.
And Pakistan's 'Support'... other than them sharing their intelligence (which is basically saying, "I don't know") with us... what did they supply us with? Soldiers who's kid's name is 'Usama'.
I think you are thinking of the 'Northern alliance'... some of them were Pakistani. But, they were and are the opium drug lords who hated the Taliban for putting the kibash on their drug trade. Are those the Pakistanis you are talking about?
You may trust them... i trust them as far as i can throw a bulldozer.
Hail, Hail!!!
let's ride with the hummers down the street, indiscriminately killing all the people that they meet
when you're with the bin-stones, you'll have a ka-ka-ka-boom time, a ka-ka-boom time, we'll have a grave ole time
SOurce? You cant just make stuff up
A piece on how some Pakistanis feel about Bin Laden:
"Bin Laden has become a folk hero here to many. More than 12,000 Pakistani parents named their newborn sons "Osama" last year. Some 5,700 named their infants "Jihad," hospital officials say."
ref. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/20/pakistan.htm
...
On the Opium Trade in Afghanistan:
"Two weeks ago, the top U.N. anti-drug official aroused new international alarm when he announced here that the cultivation of opium poppies in Afghanistan had increased by 59 percent in the past year. It grew despite a slew of expensive, foreign-funded programs to eradicate poppy fields and motivate Afghan farmers to grow other crops.
Poppy farming, banned in 2000 by the Taliban administration that U.S.-led forces overthrew the following year, quickly revived after the establishment of a U.N.-backed government and has been spreading rapidly ever since. It now accounts for more than half the country's gross national income and provides the raw material for about 75 percent of the world's heroin.
"It's become an industrial production," said Doris Buddenberg, director of the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime here, noting that Afghanistan's opium output this year was a staggering 6,700 tons. Rural poverty, dashed hopes for economic recovery, Taliban blandishments and anti-government sentiment "all added up to more families deciding to grow poppy," she said.
But anti-drug officials and experts here say the expansion of drug smuggling and refining is a far more pernicious problem than poppy farming and could easily turn Afghanistan into another Colombia."
ref. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/18/AR2006091801282.html?nav=rss_world
...
Still looking for the timeline regarding Iran. The purpose of the suspension of Iranian air traffic was to prevent the accidentl shoot-down of a commercial aircraft... and so Hussein's pilots could not repeat their actions of 1991... skirt commercial aircraft to avoid getting attacked by coalition fighters as that ran away from the fight.
Hail, Hail!!!
is this the same intelligence director that the wall street journal wrote wired $100,000 to mohammed atta shortly before 9/11?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Pakistan: Enforced disappearances in the 'war on terror'
http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGASA330382006
Press release, 29/09/2006
In cooperating in the US-led 'war on terror', the Pakistani government has systematically committed human rights abuses against hundreds of Pakistanis and foreign nationals. As the practice of enforced disappearance has spread, people have been arrested and held incommunicado in secret locations with their detention officially denied. They are at risk of torture and unlawful transfer to third countries.
"The road to Guantánamo very literally starts in Pakistan," said Claudio Cordone, Senior Director of Research at Amnesty International.
"Hundreds of people have been picked up in mass arrests, many have been sold to the USA as 'terrorists' simply on the word of their captor, and hundreds have been transferred to Guantánamo Bay, Bagram Airbase or secret detention centres run by the USA."
The routine practice of offering rewards running to thousands of dollars for unidentified terror suspects facilitated illegal detention and enforced disappearance. Bounty hunters -- including police officers and local people -- have captured individuals of different nationalities, often apparently at random, and sold them into US custody.
More than 85 percent of detainees at Guantánamo Bay were arrested, not by US forces, but by the Afghan Northern Alliance and in Pakistan at a time when rewards of up to US$5,000 were paid for every "terrorist" handed over to the USA. Often the only grounds for holding them were the allegations of their captors, who stood to gain from their arrest. Some 300 people -- previously labelled as "terrorists" and "killers" by the US government -- have since been released from Guantánamo Bay without charge, the majority to Pakistan or Afghanistan.
"Enforced disappearances were almost unheard of in Pakistan before the start of the US-led 'war on terror' -- now they are a growing phenomenon, spreading beyond terror suspects to Baloch and Sindhi nationalists and journalists," said Angelika Pathak, South Asia researcher at Amnesty International.
Many detainees remain unaccounted for, their fate and whereabouts unknown. Three women and five children were arrested alongside Tanzanian terror suspect Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani in Punjab province in July 2004. They included a baby and a 13-year-old Saudi boy called Talha, according to reports. More than two years later, nothing is known about the fate and whereabouts of Talha and the other children and women. Ahmed Ghailani was one of 14 individuals transferred from secret CIA custody to Guantánamo Bay in September 2006.
"These and other children have been detained in Pakistan's pursuit of the 'war on terror' -- and not even the children, let alone the adults, have been presumed innocent and allowed to challenge the legality of their detention," said Angelika Pathak. "Rather, they have spent months and years imprisoned without trial."
Pakistani politicians, media and civil society need to take a stand and hold the government to account so the practice is ended and the fate and whereabouts of all victims clarified.
The non-governmental Human Rights Commission of Pakistan has noted a new tolerance to abuses and suggested it might be attributable to the "impact of the war on terrorism on the public psyche".
Terror suspects held in secret are especially vulnerable to torture in Pakistan. Victims have been hung upside down and beaten and deprived of sleep and food. Agents from other countries, including the USA, appear to have known of, or been present during interrogations of people held in arbitrary and secret detention.
"The Pakistani government must set up a central register of detainees and publish regular lists of all recognised places of detention so that in future nobody can be secretly imprisoned and face the risks of torture and other abuses that secret detention involves," said Angelika Pathak. "Foreign governments, including the US, must investigate all allegations of torture in which their agents may be complicit."
Relatives have few places to turn in searching for those who have been abducted. Police have refused to investigate or register complaints. Those who challenge detentions through the provincial high courts find that security forces deny all knowledge of a person's whereabouts and judges have frequently failed to challenge these denials.
Khalid Mehmood Rashid, a Pakistani national, was handed over to Pakistani officials in South Africa on 6 November 2005 and flown to Pakistan. He has not been seen since. Despite official acknowledgements that he is being held by the Pakistani government, the Ministry of Interior has not responded to his family's inquiries as to where he is being held.
The clandestine nature of the "war on terror" makes it impossible to know exactly how many enforced disappearances, other arbitrary detentions or unlawful killings have been committed in Pakistan, but Pakistani military spokesperson Major-General Shaukat Sultan said in June 2006 that since 2001 some 500 "terrorists" had been killed and over 1,000 had been arrested.