I'm no lawyer, but it is pretty clear that from the minute of inception, that government was not to have a connection or be influenced by religion. Hence the saying 'separation of church and state.' Now, how well that is adhered to is another question.
I'm no lawyer either (thank God). But no, it is NOT clear from the minute of inception that there was ever a separatoin of church and state.
the first amendment bans Congress from establishing a first amendment.
that's good, in my opinion. that way, we don't have honor killings and the sort.
at the same time, the first amendment bans the federal government from prohibiting religious expression. the supreme court has rejected this idea, and they are wrong. and i'm not even religious for chrissakes, but i can recognize legislating from the bench when i see it.
to me, this is what this whole "war on christmas" thing is about. is there anything in the constitution about a school having a christmas tree? or a nativity scene? no. it says CONGRESS (not a school) cannot establish a national religion. I'm no lawmaker, but i'm pretty certain school board members aren't capable of establishing national law.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
But for the sake of argument, I will concede this to you. Separation of church and state is not in the constitution. A lot of people say that. What would you like this fact to lead to? Once the people finally come to realize that separtion of the two is not in the constituion, and that we therefore do not have to separate them, how can that be used?
To be honest, I don't really understand your question....how can it be used? I don't think that federal judges have the right to tell people they can't have a nativity scene, even if it's on public property. that's all.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
I'm no lawyer either (thank God). But no, it is NOT clear from the minute of inception that there was ever a separatoin of church and state.
the first amendment bans Congress from establishing a first amendment.
that's good, in my opinion. that way, we don't have honor killings and the sort.
at the same time, the first amendment bans the federal government from prohibiting religious expression. the supreme court has rejected this idea, and they are wrong. and i'm not even religious for chrissakes, but i can recognize legislating from the bench when i see it.
to me, this is what this whole "war on christmas" thing is about. is there anything in the constitution about a school having a christmas tree? or a nativity scene? no. it says CONGRESS (not a school) cannot establish a national religion. I'm no lawmaker, but i'm pretty certain school board members aren't capable of establishing national law.
You are either a moron or have better pot than me. I state my case by the following:
"the first amendment bans Congress from establishing a first amendment."
Um, what??
"to me, this is what this whole "war on christmas" thing is about." Yeah, massive campaign against Santa.
To be honest, I don't really understand your question....how can it be used? I don't think that federal judges have the right to tell people they can't have a nativity scene, even if it's on public property. that's all.
When somebody says that separation of church and state is not in the constitution, I essentially ask them how they would like to "exploit" that. Yes you can't establish a national religion. But some of them say everything from what you said all the way to "it does not say that a state cannot establish a state religion."
I guess a better way to ask it would have been--"how much combining of the two would you like."
I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
to me, this is what this whole "war on christmas" thing is about. is there anything in the constitution about a school having a christmas tree? or a nativity scene? no. it says CONGRESS (not a school) cannot establish a national religion. I'm no lawmaker, but i'm pretty certain school board members aren't capable of establishing national law.
Of course there is nothing in the constitution about a school having a christmas tree. There is also nothing about whether or not campaign finance is speech or whether yelling "fire" in a crowded room is speech. There is also nothing about whether or not the right to bear arms means that I can park a tank in my garage. The Constituion is vague by design. There cannot be a laundry list of scenarios:
Amendment 1. b "Religion."
Christmas tree in public schools--yes
Nativity scene in public schoos--no
ten commandments in courthouses--yes, but only those commandments that are enforceable by law (steal, kill, etc.)
(ok, this is hyperbole, but you get it)
I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
I'm no lawyer either (thank God). But no, it is NOT clear from the minute of inception that there was ever a separatoin of church and state.
the first amendment bans Congress from establishing a first amendment.
that's good, in my opinion. that way, we don't have honor killings and the sort.
at the same time, the first amendment bans the federal government from prohibiting religious expression. the supreme court has rejected this idea, and they are wrong. and i'm not even religious for chrissakes, but i can recognize legislating from the bench when i see it.
to me, this is what this whole "war on christmas" thing is about. is there anything in the constitution about a school having a christmas tree? or a nativity scene? no. it says CONGRESS (not a school) cannot establish a national religion. I'm no lawmaker, but i'm pretty certain school board members aren't capable of establishing national law.
This is neither mysterious or complicated. The first amendment -- and the prohibition against establishing a religion -- got extended to the state -- and so to school board members -- through the 14th Amendment and Supreme Court interpretation.
And putting a Christmas tree on school grounds, or the 10 Commandments in a courthouse, or a nativity scene in front of city hall is interpreted as a state endorsement of particular religions, and therefore an establishment of religion.
But the Supreme Court permits personal religious expression in public places. Religious student groups are permitted the same access to school facilities as the Chess Club or the French Club. And of course, we allow women to wear the hajib in government buildings -- unlike France and Turkey (I think). (Though I don't think you can wear a yamulke in the military.)
"Things will just get better and better even though it
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
You are either a moron or have better pot than me. I state my case by the following:
"the first amendment bans Congress from establishing a first amendment."
Um, what??
"to me, this is what this whole "war on christmas" thing is about." Yeah, massive campaign against Santa.
yeah, whatever, the first amendment bans Congress from establishing a religion. trust me, you have much better pot than I do.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
This is neither mysterious or complicated. The first amendment -- and the prohibition against establishing a religion -- got extended to the state -- and so to school board members -- through the 14th Amendment and Supreme Court interpretation.
And putting a Christmas tree on school grounds, or the 10 Commandments in a courthouse, or a nativity scene in front of city hall is interpreted as a state endorsement of particular religions, and therefore an establishment of religion.
That's all true (except for the insinuation that it is neither mysterious or complicated b/c if it were neither, we wouldn't be having this conversation), and you pretty much laid out the lame arguments. SCOTUS was wrong. Application of the 14th amendment? Seriously? Only lawyers can imagine these stretches.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
yeah, whatever, the first amendment bans Congress from establishing a religion. trust me, you have much better pot than I do.
Sorry, but 'whatever' doesn't cover the complete misinterpretation of the first amendment. It's kind of important. It gives me the right to state my opinion, such as 'you don't know what the fuck you are talking about' and 'people like you are why lawyers are able to twist shit into whatever they want because they know that there are people out there that are so flip about very important laws that they could hear them distorted and just say 'whatever''. You know, it's important to have the freedom to say such things. Particularly when they are right.
And putting a Christmas tree on school grounds, or the 10 Commandments in a courthouse, or a nativity scene in front of city hall is interpreted as a state endorsement of particular religions, and therefore an establishment of religion.
In terms of the Constituion, I am somewhere between you and Purple Hawk. It is open to interpretation. The only way a document like the constitution can exist is if it is open to interpretation. So maybe the constitution does not ban things like this.
Nevertheless, if separation of church and state is not expressly in the constitution, I still feel that it is the right thing to do.
Your above examples may not be an establishment of religion, but they are certainly a promotion and I don't think it is a school's, a county's, a city's, a state's or a nation's role to promote a religion. You could argue that a tree decorated with lights is not religious--the entire time is so secualized anyway. But a nativity scene or the 10 Commandments send a message: "We are Christians around here. We can't prosecute you for not being Christian, but we certainly can marginalize you."
I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
Sorry, but 'whatever' doesn't cover the complete misinterpretation of the first amendment. It's kind of important. It gives me the right to state my opinion, such as 'you don't know what the fuck you are talking about' and 'people like you are why lawyers are able to twist shit into whatever they want because they know that there are people out there that are so flip about very important laws that they could hear them distorted and just say 'whatever''. You know, it's important to have the freedom to say such things. Particularly when they are right.
is there a point in that rant that I should pay any particular attention to, b/c i'm not sure it addresses anything we've been talking about.
Obviously, you have MUCH better pot that me.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
In terms of the Constituion, I am somewhere between you and Purple Hawk. It is open to interpretation. The only way a document like the constitution can exist is if it is open to interpretation. So maybe the constitution does not ban things like this.
Nevertheless, if separation of church and state is not expressly in the constitution, I still feel that it is the right thing to do.
Let's highlight the real facts...there is No separation of church and state ANYWHERE in the constitution. Yet, it clearly states that we should not ban any religion. Yet, that's what we are doing. Why is this so complicated? God, I feel like walking outside, approaching my car, popping the trunk, and repeatedly hitting my head with a tire iron.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
it just bothers me that after 10,000 years of human civilzation, people are still arguing over this bullshit.
oh yeah, and then there's war. what the fuck, people. grow up. assholes.
damn straight yo.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
to me, this is what this whole "war on christmas" thing is about. is there anything in the constitution about a school having a christmas tree? or a nativity scene? no. it says CONGRESS (not a school) cannot establish a national religion. I'm no lawmaker, but i'm pretty certain school board members aren't capable of establishing national law.
This whole "war on Christmas" is more serious than you think. It goes beyond the holiday to encompass decades of plebian employment for the two existing "branches of government".
To the public this means "liberal or conservative", or it means "republican or democrat." And for some it even means "good or evil." In our ignorant existence we make war on each other at the beck and call of the media and their cohorts in washington, dc, and it is even more pathetic than this thread, if you think about it.
is there a point in that rant that I should pay any particular attention to, b/c i'm not sure it addresses anything we've been talking about.
Obviously, you have MUCH better pot that me.
Yeah, here's the point: I think you speak from a very uneducated, if not down right ignorant, view of what you speak. And yet you try to purport yourself as actually having a handle on the issue. I fucking hate people like you. People like you cause a lot of problems by convincing other just by your sheer confidence.
"The most dangerous man in the world is the man who thinks understands, yet doesn't even understand himself." That is you.
This whole "war on Christmas" is more serious than you think. It goes beyond the holiday to encompass decades of plebian employment for the two existing "branches of government".
To the public this means "liberal or conservative", or it means "republican or democrat." And for some it even means "good or evil." In our ignorant existence we make war on each other at the beck and call of the media and their cohorts in washington, dc, and it is even more pathetic than this thread, if you think about it.
End of thread.
dude, you need a drink. Or at least hit up I Will Live Foreve. Dude's got game.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
God, I feel like walking outside, approaching my car, popping the trunk, and repeatedly hitting my head with a tire iron.
Not putting Christian symbols at City Halls is not banning religion. If it is, than the City should have to ask each one of its citizens whether they have a seasonal holiday they would like to have represented. Oh, I guess it would not. The City would just say "Christians are the majority. Go home."
You are not banning any religion--does a City practice a relgion? If some public school stopped a kid from reading his bible at study hall, I'd be right there with you.
God, I feel like walking outside, approaching my car, popping the trunk, and repeatedly hitting my head with a tire iron.
Let's go a little less dramatic--and a little more efficient. Open the window and jump out. Given you are in Buffalo, the maximum fall should be 2 stories. Should have the same effect as the tire iron, yet saved everybody time.
Let's go a little less dramatic--and a little more efficient. Open the window and jump out. Given you are in Buffalo, the maximum fall should be 2 stories. Should have the same effect as the tire iron, yet saved everybody time.
I have to admit, that was pretty funny but you have to admit, the tire iron would get better ratings!
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
I could laugh at the fact that you're so far off in your assessment of me, but I'll have a beer instead. Seems the thing to do.
then maybe we're all in agreement, i'm more of a vodka guy though
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Comments
I'm no lawyer either (thank God). But no, it is NOT clear from the minute of inception that there was ever a separatoin of church and state.
the first amendment bans Congress from establishing a first amendment.
that's good, in my opinion. that way, we don't have honor killings and the sort.
at the same time, the first amendment bans the federal government from prohibiting religious expression. the supreme court has rejected this idea, and they are wrong. and i'm not even religious for chrissakes, but i can recognize legislating from the bench when i see it.
to me, this is what this whole "war on christmas" thing is about. is there anything in the constitution about a school having a christmas tree? or a nativity scene? no. it says CONGRESS (not a school) cannot establish a national religion. I'm no lawmaker, but i'm pretty certain school board members aren't capable of establishing national law.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
To be honest, I don't really understand your question....how can it be used? I don't think that federal judges have the right to tell people they can't have a nativity scene, even if it's on public property. that's all.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
You are either a moron or have better pot than me. I state my case by the following:
"the first amendment bans Congress from establishing a first amendment."
Um, what??
"to me, this is what this whole "war on christmas" thing is about." Yeah, massive campaign against Santa.
When somebody says that separation of church and state is not in the constitution, I essentially ask them how they would like to "exploit" that. Yes you can't establish a national religion. But some of them say everything from what you said all the way to "it does not say that a state cannot establish a state religion."
I guess a better way to ask it would have been--"how much combining of the two would you like."
Of course there is nothing in the constitution about a school having a christmas tree. There is also nothing about whether or not campaign finance is speech or whether yelling "fire" in a crowded room is speech. There is also nothing about whether or not the right to bear arms means that I can park a tank in my garage. The Constituion is vague by design. There cannot be a laundry list of scenarios:
Amendment 1. b "Religion."
Christmas tree in public schools--yes
Nativity scene in public schoos--no
ten commandments in courthouses--yes, but only those commandments that are enforceable by law (steal, kill, etc.)
(ok, this is hyperbole, but you get it)
And putting a Christmas tree on school grounds, or the 10 Commandments in a courthouse, or a nativity scene in front of city hall is interpreted as a state endorsement of particular religions, and therefore an establishment of religion.
But the Supreme Court permits personal religious expression in public places. Religious student groups are permitted the same access to school facilities as the Chess Club or the French Club. And of course, we allow women to wear the hajib in government buildings -- unlike France and Turkey (I think). (Though I don't think you can wear a yamulke in the military.)
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
-- EV, Live at the Showbox
yeah, whatever, the first amendment bans Congress from establishing a religion. trust me, you have much better pot than I do.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
That's all true (except for the insinuation that it is neither mysterious or complicated b/c if it were neither, we wouldn't be having this conversation), and you pretty much laid out the lame arguments. SCOTUS was wrong. Application of the 14th amendment? Seriously? Only lawyers can imagine these stretches.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Sorry, but 'whatever' doesn't cover the complete misinterpretation of the first amendment. It's kind of important. It gives me the right to state my opinion, such as 'you don't know what the fuck you are talking about' and 'people like you are why lawyers are able to twist shit into whatever they want because they know that there are people out there that are so flip about very important laws that they could hear them distorted and just say 'whatever''. You know, it's important to have the freedom to say such things. Particularly when they are right.
In terms of the Constituion, I am somewhere between you and Purple Hawk. It is open to interpretation. The only way a document like the constitution can exist is if it is open to interpretation. So maybe the constitution does not ban things like this.
Nevertheless, if separation of church and state is not expressly in the constitution, I still feel that it is the right thing to do.
Your above examples may not be an establishment of religion, but they are certainly a promotion and I don't think it is a school's, a county's, a city's, a state's or a nation's role to promote a religion. You could argue that a tree decorated with lights is not religious--the entire time is so secualized anyway. But a nativity scene or the 10 Commandments send a message: "We are Christians around here. We can't prosecute you for not being Christian, but we certainly can marginalize you."
It's wonderful I can make a post without reading all of those replies.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
is there a point in that rant that I should pay any particular attention to, b/c i'm not sure it addresses anything we've been talking about.
Obviously, you have MUCH better pot that me.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
oh yeah, and then there's war. what the fuck, people. grow up. assholes.
Let's highlight the real facts...there is No separation of church and state ANYWHERE in the constitution. Yet, it clearly states that we should not ban any religion. Yet, that's what we are doing. Why is this so complicated? God, I feel like walking outside, approaching my car, popping the trunk, and repeatedly hitting my head with a tire iron.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
damn straight yo.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
This whole "war on Christmas" is more serious than you think. It goes beyond the holiday to encompass decades of plebian employment for the two existing "branches of government".
To the public this means "liberal or conservative", or it means "republican or democrat." And for some it even means "good or evil." In our ignorant existence we make war on each other at the beck and call of the media and their cohorts in washington, dc, and it is even more pathetic than this thread, if you think about it.
End of thread.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Yeah, here's the point: I think you speak from a very uneducated, if not down right ignorant, view of what you speak. And yet you try to purport yourself as actually having a handle on the issue. I fucking hate people like you. People like you cause a lot of problems by convincing other just by your sheer confidence.
"The most dangerous man in the world is the man who thinks understands, yet doesn't even understand himself." That is you.
dude, you need a drink. Or at least hit up I Will Live Foreve. Dude's got game.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
You need a messiah.
How do?
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
i'm guessing you don't laugh a lot.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Not putting Christian symbols at City Halls is not banning religion. If it is, than the City should have to ask each one of its citizens whether they have a seasonal holiday they would like to have represented. Oh, I guess it would not. The City would just say "Christians are the majority. Go home."
You are not banning any religion--does a City practice a relgion? If some public school stopped a kid from reading his bible at study hall, I'd be right there with you.
In other words--those who don't agree are stupid.
Apparently not.
Let's go a little less dramatic--and a little more efficient. Open the window and jump out. Given you are in Buffalo, the maximum fall should be 2 stories. Should have the same effect as the tire iron, yet saved everybody time.
I try.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
"There is no try, there is only do or do not" ---Motherfuckin' Yoda
I could laugh at the fact that you're so far off in your assessment of me, but I'll have a beer instead. Seems the thing to do.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
I have to admit, that was pretty funny
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
I forgot about "The Force".
Forgive me.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
I will, but the Force will not. It, just like rock'n roll, never forgets.
then maybe we're all in agreement, i'm more of a vodka guy though
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days