Had McCain produced any kind of results during his maverick parachute drop on Washington DC at the eleventh hour...than Obama may have been in trouble.
Jesus Christ ... where did you get this bit of information, the Obama campaign?
The version I heard was that the meeting was immediately turned over to Obama, who completely lost control of the whole thing. He had no plan, and didn't understand the House version that was presented to him. He immediately had to get Paulson to explain it to him.
Is this all true? How the fuck should I know? I wasn't there. And neither were you.
So frankly, either version could be true.
There was no deal. And even if there was, there is no way for McCain or anyone else to torpedo it. THE DEMOCRATS HAVE THE MAJORITY IN BOTH HOUSES. THEY CAN PASS ANYTHING THEY WANT.
This, I can agree with ... because it's all about perception. And right now, the narrative the Democrats are peddling -- and the media is buying -- is "McCain came in and wrecked the deal." And that's it's just an out and out lie.
Given the two things I mentioned above, there's no way it can be the truth.
My friend.
CSPAN had coverage of the Bush Meeting yesterday. McCain was in complete silence throughout. Obama was the only one who had anything to say.
This has also been stated by several Senators on both sides of the floor Republican and Democrats.
Regardless...
This has all backfired and blown up in McCain's face. This misstep along with the embarassing Palin interview, and McCain's own gaffes last week are just sending this campaign down the shitter...He just looks like a complete clown right now.
He's really going to have come out strong tonight or else this could mark the biggest flub in campaign history.
This has been a disasterous month for the McCain camp.
Maybe there was less political calculation in this than most people think. Obviously, if you're running for president, you have to measure how every action is going to affect the campaign, but ...
Maybe McCain went back to Washington because he really thought it was the right thing for him to do, his campaign be damned. It might be completely naive of me, but I actually think McCain -- moreso than most politicians -- really does try to follow his heart and do what is best for the country.
If this had truly been with the country's interest in mind, as opposed to being political, than he wouldn't be going to the debate tonight. Plain and simple. He would follow what he originally said, that he would not debate without a deal in place. If he said this from his heart and believed it, then what would he care if he missed the debate tonight? A deal is obviously not in place.
Regardless on whether it backfires tonight, the decision by McCain to go back on his promise and debate tonight shows that the move was definitely political. I feel like I keep repeating myself, but if it wasn't political than McCain would be in D.C. tonight, not caring about the ramifications of missing a debate. There's really no other way to explain it.
And when I said the debate tonight is going to be on the economy, it's strictly about foreign policy, but the candidates are going to in large part talk about the economy and the moderators are going to slightly change their questions to let a bit more of the economy in. It'd be impossible to do otherwise considering the crisis in the country right now.
There was no deal. And even if there was, there is no way for McCain or anyone else to torpedo it. THE DEMOCRATS HAVE THE MAJORITY IN BOTH HOUSES. THEY CAN PASS ANYTHING THEY WANT.
There are currently an equal number of Democrats and Republicans in the Senate, and about 40 more Democrats than Republicans in the House of Representatives. Those are nowhere near the numbers Democrats would need to pass something without Republican support.
If this had truly been with the country's interest in mind, as opposed to being political, than he wouldn't be going to the debate tonight. Plain and simple. He would follow what he originally said, that he would not debate without a deal in place. If he said this from his heart and believed it, then what would he care if he missed the debate tonight? A deal is obviously not in place.
Regardless on whether it backfires tonight, the decision by McCain to go back on his promise and debate tonight shows that the move was definitely political. I feel like I keep repeating myself, but if it wasn't political than McCain would be in D.C. tonight, not caring about the ramifications of missing a debate. There's really no other way to explain it.
And when I said the debate tonight is going to be on the economy, it's strictly about foreign policy, but the candidates are going to in large part talk about the economy and the moderators are going to slightly change their questions to let a bit more of the economy in. It'd be impossible to do otherwise considering the crisis in the country right now.
Yeah...
I highly doubt American's really wanna hear about how well "The Surge" is doing these days.
If McCain starts in on this again...he's gonna look like a total chump.
There are currently an equal number of Democrats and Republicans in the Senate, and about 40 more Democrats than Republicans in the House of Representatives. Those are nowhere near the numbers Democrats would need to pass something without Republican support.
CSPAN had coverage of the Bush Meeting yesterday. McCain was in complete silence throughout. Obama was the only one who had anything to say.
CSPAN was in the room for the whole meeting? Really? and this was broadcast in its entirety? Really? Pardon me if I am skeptical ...
This has also been stated by several Senators on both sides of the floor Republican and Democrats.
No, this is the party line spewn forth by the Democrats, which you are certainly free to believe.
This has all backfired and blown up in McCain's face. This misstep along with the embarassing Palin interview, and McCain's own gaffes last week are just sending this campaign down the shitter...He just looks like a complete clown right now.
While it certainly wasn't McCain's finest moment, politically, I think you are grossly overstating things
He's really going to have come out strong tonight or else this could mark the biggest flub in campaign history.
I'll agree he needs a good debate tonight. No question. But "biggest flub in campaign history" -- again, that's quite an overstatement.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
You realize it's the foreign policy debate tonight, right? McCain could debate foreign policy in his sleep.
He'll be fine.
Okay.
If he can sit there and convince us that the 3 Trillion Dollar War in Iraq is worth every penny during an economic crisis such as this...Then I guess I have grossly underestimated the political genius of John McCain.
Until then...I'm going to go with my gut on this and expect him to get his ass handed to him tonight
Just saw it on CNN that McCain will attend tonight's debate. I just have to ask though, I thought he wasn't going to debate until their was a proposal in Congress? As of right now there is no proposal.
Can't you tell by now that he's a seat-of-the-pants kind of guy?
Doin' things on the fly?!
What next can he try?
With nothing but his ego to ply?
He'll probably use the trip to Washington as an excuse for why he isn't prepared. Just watch... :eek:
If he can sit there and convince us that the 3 Trillion Dollar War in Iraq is worth every penny during an economic crisis such as this...Then I guess I have grossly underestimated the political genius of John McCain.
Until then...I'm going to go with my gut on this and expect him to get his ass handed to him tonight
and the truth lies in the middle ...
McCain is well versed in foreign affairs, there really is no denying it.
And he's going to play the "surge" card as much as he can. and, violence has certainly abated since the start of the surge ....
But the reality about the surge, is that it's not complete ... indeed, Obama said on O'Reilly that it has done better than anyone expected ... but ... there are points to be made that it's NOT a complete success; Iraq has not moved closer to taking over security in their country, Iraq is still raking in a huge surplus of wealth where we're financing this whole thing, and what happens when we stop paying off the insurgents? Violence will increase again.
Indeed, McCain making what seems to be a good decision after making a collosal one (going to war in the first place) ... well ... we'll see how the public views it.
Remember, Obama is a little verbose, he struggles making a quick point at times ... which, is key in this format
"You're one of the few Red Sox fans I don't mind." - Newch91
"I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
I wonder if and how this will come up in the debate. I'm sure the moderator will ask about it, and McCain will try to spin it as "while Obama was talking, I was doing in Washington," but the fact remains that there is no deal and that he is there doing the debate. He backed down from his hard line. I don't really see how he is going to be able to explain that.
McCain has also not done much preparing for the debate so far, according to his campaign aides. This could mean a few things. One of the reasons could be, as sleightofjeff has said, is that he's very adept at debate (which I don't think is true, but nonetheless). It could also be a severe underestimation of his own skills and of Obama's lack thereof. We'll see if that costs him.
Of course, if McCain does well and Obama does poorly, then this mess with suspending the campaign will all probably be forgotten in the morning. Maybe, at the very least this will give Obama a bit of a cushion that he didn't have.
I really fucking hate how all these idiots keep saying that McCain is somehow brilliant when it comes to foreign policy! Why? Because he was a POW? It's time to use your brains. McCain wants to continue being the world police. Frankly, when it comes to foreign policy McCain scares me.
The GOP can keep saying it's McCains strong point, it doesn't make it so.
McCain has the advantage in some ways because lots of people are expecting him to be unprepared for this debate. Some say that the McCain campaign is intentonally lowering expectations. It's a proven method for making a performance appear better than it was. Basically, if people expect Obama to clobber McCain and it doesn't happen (which it won't), then McCain looks like he won. In reality, he'll probably hold his own and so will Obama.
Also, he "shoots from the hip." He's going to go in try to make Obama seem scripted and rigid. That's the whole "Straight Talk" thing. So even though he didn't necessarily "prepare" a lot for this debate, it isn't as important for him to prepare as it is for Obama.
San Diego 10/25/00, Mountain View 6/1/03, Santa Barbara 10/28/03, Northwest School 3/18/05, San Diego 7/7/06, Los Angeles 7/9/06, 7/10/06, Honolulu (U2) 12/9/06, Santa Barbara (EV) 4/10/08, Los Angeles (EV) 4/12/08, Hartford 6/27/08, Mansfield 6/28/08, VH1 Rock Honors The Who 7/12/08, Seattle 9/21/09, Universal City 9/30/09, 10/1/09, 10/6/09, 10/7/09, San Diego 10/9/09, Los Angeles (EV) 7/8/11, Santa Barbara (EV) 7/9/11, Chicago 7/19/13, San Diego 11/21/13, Los Angeles 11/23/13, 11/24/13, Oakland 11/26/13, Chicago 8/22/16, Missoula 8/13/18, Boston 9/2/18, Los Angeles 2/25/22 (EV), San Diego 5/3/22, Los Angeles 5/6/22, 5/7/22, Imola 6/25/22, Los Angeles 5/21/24, [London 6/29/24], [Boston 9/15/24]
I'm torn about who has the higher expectations going into this debate; on one hand, you'd think the majority of people would think Obama has the higher hand. He's well known as a brilliant orator, although that doesn't transfer to the concise soundbite answers necessary for television debating, many people probably do not make that differentiation. People are probably thinking about Kennedy/Nixon, and how unfavorably Nixon appeared in that exchange. Could it happen again?
On the other hand, McCain is definetely viewed by most of the American public as being more knowledgeable about foreign policy. Obama does not have to clear that hurdle; he needs to clear one hurdle - "can this person be Commander-in-Chief?" Kennedy didn't have to prove he had more experience than Nixon, he only needed to prove that he had enough. Obama needs to do the same here, and if he can assure the majority of people watching that he is a capable Commander-in-Chief, even if McCain wins in every other aspect of the debate it is good for Obama. And the fact that Obama wanted the foreign policy debate first (when most people will watch) shows me that he is not scared of facing McCain on this matter; he wants to go against him head on.
I think this will be one of the most watched debates in history. No matter how you slice it, it will have an impact.
San Diego 10/25/00, Mountain View 6/1/03, Santa Barbara 10/28/03, Northwest School 3/18/05, San Diego 7/7/06, Los Angeles 7/9/06, 7/10/06, Honolulu (U2) 12/9/06, Santa Barbara (EV) 4/10/08, Los Angeles (EV) 4/12/08, Hartford 6/27/08, Mansfield 6/28/08, VH1 Rock Honors The Who 7/12/08, Seattle 9/21/09, Universal City 9/30/09, 10/1/09, 10/6/09, 10/7/09, San Diego 10/9/09, Los Angeles (EV) 7/8/11, Santa Barbara (EV) 7/9/11, Chicago 7/19/13, San Diego 11/21/13, Los Angeles 11/23/13, 11/24/13, Oakland 11/26/13, Chicago 8/22/16, Missoula 8/13/18, Boston 9/2/18, Los Angeles 2/25/22 (EV), San Diego 5/3/22, Los Angeles 5/6/22, 5/7/22, Imola 6/25/22, Los Angeles 5/21/24, [London 6/29/24], [Boston 9/15/24]
I think if Obama can go 50-50 on the foreign affairs issues, and concentrate on his message for the economy (vs McCain's obvious lack of confidence on the topic) ... Obama could do very well.
One thing I'll interested to see both of these candidates tackle ... with the $700B spend potential ....
Obama - are you still promising tax breaks for 90% of Americans?
McCain - Can you really promise to cut taxes on the rich EVEN FURTHER? Cut Capital gains taxes?
"You're one of the few Red Sox fans I don't mind." - Newch91
"I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
I think this will be one of the most watched debates in history. No matter how you slice it, it will have an impact.
I'm considering going to a bar and watching so I can either drink in victory to celebrate the debate or in defeat so I can forget about it. Either way, this election has been making me even more of an alcoholic than I was (which is saying something).
I'm considering going to a bar and watching so I can either drink in victory to celebrate the debate or in defeat so I can forget about it. Either way, this election has been making me even more of an alcoholic than I was (which is saying something).
I think we need a PJ tour immediately following the election ... all in favor???
"You're one of the few Red Sox fans I don't mind." - Newch91
"I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
I wonder if and how this will come up in the debate. I'm sure the moderator will ask about it, and McCain will try to spin it as "while Obama was talking, I was doing in Washington," but the fact remains that there is no deal and that he is there doing the debate. He backed down from his hard line. I don't really see how he is going to be able to explain that.
McCain has also not done much preparing for the debate so far, according to his campaign aides. This could mean a few things. One of the reasons could be, as sleightofjeff has said, is that he's very adept at debate (which I don't think is true, but nonetheless). It could also be a severe underestimation of his own skills and of Obama's lack thereof. We'll see if that costs him.
Of course, if McCain does well and Obama does poorly, then this mess with suspending the campaign will all probably be forgotten in the morning. Maybe, at the very least this will give Obama a bit of a cushion that he didn't have.
This is a fair post.
Let me clarify my role in it though: I don't believe McCain is some master debater. I just believe, of all the topics that could be debated, he has a much greater natural command of the material when it comes to foreign policy.
I would think he'd need less prep for this one than one on domestic issues.
And no amount of prep is going to suddenly transform the somewhat wooden McCain into some silver-tongued wordsmith. So I don't think the recent jaunt to D.C. really hurts him in that regard.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
And no amount of prep is going to suddenly transform the somewhat wooden McCain into some silver-tongued wordsmith. So I don't think the recent jaunt to D.C. really hurts him in that regard.
The thing about this is, is he underestimating Obama's skills as a debater? I don't think Obama is a great debater by any stretch of the imagination, but nevertheless he held his ground against Hillary Clinton, one of the best debaters in the Senate and someone with a firm grip on the facts, again and again without embarassing himself. I think Obama will pass the Commander-in-Chief test pretty easily, because regardless of what people think of his policies, he appears extremely presidential when speaking with the American people. But there are no polls that say the American people expect this to be a blowout in Obama's favor; McCain's the man on foreign policy. He's not just going to skate through this.
And as I said, the moderators are already stating that a large amount of this debate will probably focus on the economy. I think off-the-cuff Obama will probably be better at this than McCain.
I'm very tense about this debate, probably cause I'm more invested in this one than earlier elections. But if Obama can pass the test of people believing he can be Chief Executive, this will be a winning night for him. And one thing I can say about Obama is that despite the many screwups he's made in this campaign I've never seen him cave due to pressure.
The thing about this is, is he underestimating Obama's skills as a debater? I don't think Obama is a great debater by any stretch of the imagination, but nevertheless he held his ground against Hillary Clinton, one of the best debaters in the Senate and someone with a firm grip on the facts, again and again without embarassing himself. I think Obama will pass the Commander-in-Chief test pretty easily, because regardless of what people think of his policies, he appears extremely presidential when speaking with the American people. But there are no polls that say the American people expect this to be a blowout in Obama's favor; McCain's the man on foreign policy. He's not just going to skate through this.
I actually agree that Obama probably has the edge, based mostly on expectations. He simply has to appear a credible commander-in-chief. No more, no less.
McCain is the supposed foreign policy expert ... so if he DOESN'T hit it out of the park, he loses, basically. A ground-rule double isn't good enough.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
Comments
My friend.
CSPAN had coverage of the Bush Meeting yesterday. McCain was in complete silence throughout. Obama was the only one who had anything to say.
This has also been stated by several Senators on both sides of the floor Republican and Democrats.
Regardless...
This has all backfired and blown up in McCain's face. This misstep along with the embarassing Palin interview, and McCain's own gaffes last week are just sending this campaign down the shitter...He just looks like a complete clown right now.
He's really going to have come out strong tonight or else this could mark the biggest flub in campaign history.
This has been a disasterous month for the McCain camp.
If this had truly been with the country's interest in mind, as opposed to being political, than he wouldn't be going to the debate tonight. Plain and simple. He would follow what he originally said, that he would not debate without a deal in place. If he said this from his heart and believed it, then what would he care if he missed the debate tonight? A deal is obviously not in place.
Regardless on whether it backfires tonight, the decision by McCain to go back on his promise and debate tonight shows that the move was definitely political. I feel like I keep repeating myself, but if it wasn't political than McCain would be in D.C. tonight, not caring about the ramifications of missing a debate. There's really no other way to explain it.
And when I said the debate tonight is going to be on the economy, it's strictly about foreign policy, but the candidates are going to in large part talk about the economy and the moderators are going to slightly change their questions to let a bit more of the economy in. It'd be impossible to do otherwise considering the crisis in the country right now.
This is not true at all....go here and look at the current makeup of Congress; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_United_States_Senators#House_of_Representatives
There are currently an equal number of Democrats and Republicans in the Senate, and about 40 more Democrats than Republicans in the House of Representatives. Those are nowhere near the numbers Democrats would need to pass something without Republican support.
Yeah...
I highly doubt American's really wanna hear about how well "The Surge" is doing these days.
If McCain starts in on this again...he's gonna look like a total chump.
Ah, God bless talking points. Maybe things are finally getting back to normal.
I can't wait to see the deer in the headlights expression on McCain's face when he realizes tonight that he is way out of his league
I'll agree he needs a good debate tonight. No question. But "biggest flub in campaign history" -- again, that's quite an overstatement.
for the least they could possibly do
Huh?
You realize it's the foreign policy debate tonight, right? McCain could debate foreign policy in his sleep.
He'll be fine.
for the least they could possibly do
Okay.
If he can sit there and convince us that the 3 Trillion Dollar War in Iraq is worth every penny during an economic crisis such as this...Then I guess I have grossly underestimated the political genius of John McCain.
Until then...I'm going to go with my gut on this and expect him to get his ass handed to him tonight
Can't you tell by now that he's a seat-of-the-pants kind of guy?
Doin' things on the fly?!
What next can he try?
With nothing but his ego to ply?
He'll probably use the trip to Washington as an excuse for why he isn't prepared. Just watch... :eek:
and the truth lies in the middle ...
McCain is well versed in foreign affairs, there really is no denying it.
And he's going to play the "surge" card as much as he can. and, violence has certainly abated since the start of the surge ....
But the reality about the surge, is that it's not complete ... indeed, Obama said on O'Reilly that it has done better than anyone expected ... but ... there are points to be made that it's NOT a complete success; Iraq has not moved closer to taking over security in their country, Iraq is still raking in a huge surplus of wealth where we're financing this whole thing, and what happens when we stop paying off the insurgents? Violence will increase again.
Indeed, McCain making what seems to be a good decision after making a collosal one (going to war in the first place) ... well ... we'll see how the public views it.
Remember, Obama is a little verbose, he struggles making a quick point at times ... which, is key in this format
"I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
McCain has also not done much preparing for the debate so far, according to his campaign aides. This could mean a few things. One of the reasons could be, as sleightofjeff has said, is that he's very adept at debate (which I don't think is true, but nonetheless). It could also be a severe underestimation of his own skills and of Obama's lack thereof. We'll see if that costs him.
Of course, if McCain does well and Obama does poorly, then this mess with suspending the campaign will all probably be forgotten in the morning. Maybe, at the very least this will give Obama a bit of a cushion that he didn't have.
The GOP can keep saying it's McCains strong point, it doesn't make it so.
Also, he "shoots from the hip." He's going to go in try to make Obama seem scripted and rigid. That's the whole "Straight Talk" thing. So even though he didn't necessarily "prepare" a lot for this debate, it isn't as important for him to prepare as it is for Obama.
On the other hand, McCain is definetely viewed by most of the American public as being more knowledgeable about foreign policy. Obama does not have to clear that hurdle; he needs to clear one hurdle - "can this person be Commander-in-Chief?" Kennedy didn't have to prove he had more experience than Nixon, he only needed to prove that he had enough. Obama needs to do the same here, and if he can assure the majority of people watching that he is a capable Commander-in-Chief, even if McCain wins in every other aspect of the debate it is good for Obama. And the fact that Obama wanted the foreign policy debate first (when most people will watch) shows me that he is not scared of facing McCain on this matter; he wants to go against him head on.
I think this will be one of the most watched debates in history. No matter how you slice it, it will have an impact.
One thing I'll interested to see both of these candidates tackle ... with the $700B spend potential ....
Obama - are you still promising tax breaks for 90% of Americans?
McCain - Can you really promise to cut taxes on the rich EVEN FURTHER? Cut Capital gains taxes?
"I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
I'm considering going to a bar and watching so I can either drink in victory to celebrate the debate or in defeat so I can forget about it. Either way, this election has been making me even more of an alcoholic than I was (which is saying something).
I think we need a PJ tour immediately following the election ... all in favor???
"I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
i
This is a fair post.
Let me clarify my role in it though: I don't believe McCain is some master debater. I just believe, of all the topics that could be debated, he has a much greater natural command of the material when it comes to foreign policy.
I would think he'd need less prep for this one than one on domestic issues.
And no amount of prep is going to suddenly transform the somewhat wooden McCain into some silver-tongued wordsmith. So I don't think the recent jaunt to D.C. really hurts him in that regard.
for the least they could possibly do
The thing about this is, is he underestimating Obama's skills as a debater? I don't think Obama is a great debater by any stretch of the imagination, but nevertheless he held his ground against Hillary Clinton, one of the best debaters in the Senate and someone with a firm grip on the facts, again and again without embarassing himself. I think Obama will pass the Commander-in-Chief test pretty easily, because regardless of what people think of his policies, he appears extremely presidential when speaking with the American people. But there are no polls that say the American people expect this to be a blowout in Obama's favor; McCain's the man on foreign policy. He's not just going to skate through this.
And as I said, the moderators are already stating that a large amount of this debate will probably focus on the economy. I think off-the-cuff Obama will probably be better at this than McCain.
I'm very tense about this debate, probably cause I'm more invested in this one than earlier elections. But if Obama can pass the test of people believing he can be Chief Executive, this will be a winning night for him. And one thing I can say about Obama is that despite the many screwups he's made in this campaign I've never seen him cave due to pressure.
I actually agree that Obama probably has the edge, based mostly on expectations. He simply has to appear a credible commander-in-chief. No more, no less.
McCain is the supposed foreign policy expert ... so if he DOESN'T hit it out of the park, he loses, basically. A ground-rule double isn't good enough.
for the least they could possibly do
Never had a doubt. This guy and his campaign is all about smoke and mirrors.