4,000

Byrnzie

g under p wrote:

This is true, In one form or another we are going to be there for a long long time. it matters not what the politicians are saying the permanent bases will be there and so will soldiers to protect, therefore soldiers will surely die.

SADLY, The animosity towards this country will NOT dissipate any time soon.

Peace

The animosity towards what country? The U.S or Iraq?

g under p

Byrnzie wrote:

The animosity towards what country? The U.S or Iraq?

Didn't notice you were in another country, I talking about these United States of America.

Peace

Byrnzie

g under p wrote:

Didn't notice you were in another country, I talking about these United States of America.

Peace

PJ_Saluki

Here's a excerpt of a story from today's New York Times. To read the whole thing, and to view the multimedia presentation, click on the link below.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/25/us/25dead.web.html?hp

U.S. Death Toll in Iraq War Hits 4,000

By LIZETTE ALVAREZ and ANDREW W. LEHREN
Published: March 25, 2008

By the time Specialist Jerry Ryen King decided to write about his experiences in Iraq, the teen-age paratrooper had more to share than most other soldiers.

In two operations to clear the outskirts of the village of Turki in the deadly Diyala Province, Specialist King and the rest of the Fifth Squadron faced days of firefights, grenade attacks and land mines. Well-trained insurgents had burrowed deep into muddy canals, a throwback to the trenches of World War I. As the fighting wore on, B-1 bombers and F-16s were called in to drop a series of powerful bombs.

Once the area was clear of insurgents, the squadron, part of the 82nd Airborne Division, uncovered hidden caches with thousands of weapons.

Two months later, Specialist King, a handsome former honors student and double-sport athlete from Georgia, sat down at his computer. In informal but powerful prose, he began a journal.

"After 232 long, desolate, morose, but somewhat days of tranquility into deployment, I’ve decided that I should start writing some of the things I experienced here in Iraq. I have to say that the events that I have encountered here have changed my outlook on life...
The most recent mission started out as a 24-36 hour air-assault sniper mission in a known al-Qaida stronghold just north of Baghdad. We landed a few hours before daybreak and as soon as I got off the helicopter my night vision broke, I was surrounded by the sound of artillery rounds, people screaming in Arabic, automatic weapons, and the terrain didn’t look anything like what we were briefed. I knew it was going to be a bad day and a half."
Jerry Ryen King, journal entry, March 7, 2007

A month later, Specialist King was sitting inside his combat outpost, an abandoned school in Sadah, when suicide bombers exploded two dump trucks just outside the building. The school collapsed, killing Specialist King on April 23, 2007, along with eight other soldiers, and making the blast one of the most lethal for Americans fighting in Iraq.

In that instant, Specialist King became one of 4,000 service members and Defense Department civilians to die in the Iraq war — a milestone that was reached late Sunday, five years since the war began in March 2003. The last four members of that group, like the majority of the most recent 1,000 to die, were killed by an improvised explosive device. They died at 10 p.m. Sunday on a patrol in Baghdad, military officials said; their names have not yet been released...

darthvedder81

How many more have to die? That all comes down to what you think about the war. I personally think we are in the fight of our lives against Islamo-Fascism and any states that give off even a whiff of sympathy for that cause.

I weep for every service man and woman lost, but at the risk of sounding crassly pragmatic 4,000 KIA in 5 years is relatively modest for something as large scale as what I believe we are dealing with. 4900 were killed in one day in Normandy. 6900 dead and 18,700 wounded on one hill in Iwo Jima (a battle that ultimately proved to be almost entirely futile).

If you don't think terrorism is as serious of an issue as the advancement of the Axis powers then I guess nothing I say is to be considered. I would say what we are dealing with is far worse.

The only other real option is to pull out of everywhere and just hope for the best. The notion that you can "negotiate for peace" with these bastards is ridiculous, but if Sean Penn wants to go over and try I won't stop him.

kenny olav

How many more will enlist and re-enlist?

gimmesometruth27

this is such a tragic milestone. barely even covered in the press. i just hope that to all of those 4000 it was worth it. your life is the only thing you have and you don't just give it away for anything. once you lose your life what is there left? you are gone, and "you will be in a world of shit..." to quote r. lee ermy in "full metal jacket"

i hope they believe that their mission was worth trading their life. i know if i were one of those 4000 i would have felt ripped off dying for this bullshit mission and this bullshit president, but that is my opinion and i am entitled to it just like everyone else.

i just hope to God they believe it was worth it.

darthvedder81

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

this is such a tragic milestone. barely even covered in the press. i just hope that to all of those 4000 it was worth it. your life is the only thing you have and you don't just give it away for anything. once you lose your life what is there left? you are gone, and "you will be in a world of shit..." to quote r. lee ermy in "full metal jacket"

i hope they believe that their mission was worth trading their life. i know if i were one of those 4000 i would have felt ripped off dying for this bullshit mission and this bullshit president, but that is my opinion and i am entitled to it just like everyone else.

i just hope to God they believe it was worth it.

I know you are trying to sound sympathetic but this tone actually comes off more condescending than anything. U.S. soldiers enlist voluntarily. If they didn't think they were doing their patriotic duty and preserving freedom they wouldn't join in the first place. They wouldn't re-enlist. They wouldn't volunteer for additional TOD's.

Regardless of their opinions on Iraq I wish some of the anti-war crowd could grasp this.

Byrnzie

darthvedder81 wrote:

How many more have to die? That all comes down to what you think about the war. I personally think we are in the fight of our lives against Islamo-Fascism and any states that give off even a whiff of sympathy for that cause.

If you don't think terrorism is as serious of an issue as the advancement of the Axis powers then I guess nothing I say is to be considered. I would say what we are dealing with is far worse.

The only other real option is to pull out of everywhere and just hope for the best. The notion that you can "negotiate for peace" with these bastards is ridiculous, but if Sean Penn wants to go over and try I won't stop him.

Please explain how Iraq had anything to do with 'Islamo fascism' prior to the invasion. And did Iraq 'give off a 'whiff of sympathy for that cause'? No.

unsung

4000.

Obviously that is 4000 too many. Imagine what it was like in the 60's and 70's for Vietnam when an estimated 58,000 were killed, over 2,000 still missing, and over 300,000 were wounded. That war was just as unpopular, if not more.

314,000 "allied" troops killed, 1.1 Million NV killed

That isn't including the estimated 2,700,000 civilians that were killed.

Cosmo

unsung wrote:

4000.

Obviously that is 4000 too many. Imagine what it was like in the 60's and 70's for Vietnam when an estimated 58,000 were killed, over 2,000 still missing, and over 300,000 were wounded. That war was just as unpopular, if not more.

314,000 "allied" troops killed, 1.1 Million NV killed

That isn't including the estimated 2,700,000 civilians that were killed.

...
That all died for what? What were we doing over there? Why were we over there?

Anon

darthvedder81 wrote:

I know you are trying to sound sympathetic but this tone actually comes off more condescending than anything. U.S. soldiers enlist voluntarily. If they didn't think they were doing their patriotic duty and preserving freedom they wouldn't join in the first place. They wouldn't re-enlist. They wouldn't volunteer for additional TOD's.

Regardless of their opinions on Iraq I wish some of the anti-war crowd could grasp this.

No, i don't see that he was trying to be condescending at all.

I understand that the soldiers enlist voluntarily. It's also reasonable to assume that not everyone that enlists, goes over there with the real belief that they could die. Maybe they should?, but i honestly wonder if a lot of them have any idea what they are really getting themselves in for.

Don't forget that seventeen is the minimum age of enlistment. These kids are not trusted with alcohol, they cannot vote and in some states are not legally adults, but they are permitted to sign a contract that binds them to kill other human beings and risk being killed by other human beings, wherever the US government wishes, whenever the US government wishes, and for whatever reason the US government wishes.

The moral implications of killing under orders and the reality of personal mortality are not something they can be trained in. It's bullshit if any one says they can. That is only something that is only going to become real when they come face to face with it. If, under the law, an eighteen-year-old doesn't have the life experience necessary to consume alcohol, how can an eighteen-year-old be bound to a contract with such complex and life-altering implications? But they are. Of course some of them are going to regret that. You can't believe that there isn't some that wish that they were not in that situation. That's what i think gimmesomestrength was alluding to.

I won't even go down the road of the means that exist to prevent governments from using misinformation, secrecy for the purposes of controlling public opinion, and outright lies to conceal the actual motivation for going...

Just because you join the military, it doesn't mean you want to die for your country, or president, or vice president, or whoever the hell is running the show.

There's an excellent blog site where returned soldiers and veterans post their stories and thoughts. It's heartbreaking. Here it is if anyone wants to take a look.

http://2dinar.com/

polaris

darthvedder81 wrote:

How many more have to die? That all comes down to what you think about the war. I personally think we are in the fight of our lives against Islamo-Fascism and any states that give off even a whiff of sympathy for that cause.

I weep for every service man and woman lost, but at the risk of sounding crassly pragmatic 4,000 KIA in 5 years is relatively modest for something as large scale as what I believe we are dealing with. 4900 were killed in one day in Normandy. 6900 dead and 18,700 wounded on one hill in Iwo Jima (a battle that ultimately proved to be almost entirely futile).

If you don't think terrorism is as serious of an issue as the advancement of the Axis powers then I guess nothing I say is to be considered. I would say what we are dealing with is far worse.

The only other real option is to pull out of everywhere and just hope for the best. The notion that you can "negotiate for peace" with these bastards is ridiculous, but if Sean Penn wants to go over and try I won't stop him.

this rhetoric has no foundation ... this war is based on the principles of US foreign policy - which is making sure foreign nations support the economic goals of US corporations ...

this war has nothing to do with terrorism - with all the information available to us now - this no longer holds any water ... this war has always been about us imperialism and war profiteering ... this is why 4,000 deaths is tragic and why the 1.2 million iraqi deaths is beyond excuseable ...

there can be NO change unless people start looking at these issues for what they really are ...

lazymoon13

polaris wrote:

this rhetoric has no foundation ... this war is based on the principles of US foreign policy - which is making sure foreign nations support the economic goals of US corporations ...

this war has nothing to do with terrorism - with all the information available to us now - this no longer holds any water ... this war has always been about us imperialism and war profiteering ... this is why 4,000 deaths is tragic and why the 1.2 million iraqi deaths is beyond excuseable ...

there can be NO change unless people start looking at these issues for what they really are ...

this war has something to do with terrorism and Islamic extremism. to say its nothing is outright ignorant.

do people profit from wars? sure. can US actions be seen as imperialistic? sure.

but dont ignore other factors just to push your own agenda/opinion.

polaris

lazymoon13 wrote:

this war has something to do with terrorism and Islamic extremism. to say its nothing is outright ignorant.

do people profit from wars? sure. can US actions be seen as imperialistic? sure.

but dont ignore other factors just to push your own agenda/opinion.

so - iraq was a hotbed of terrorism prior to the invasion?

edit: and while you're at it - show me any kind of proof that this war did not in fact increase terrorism and extremism in the region

lazymoon13

polaris wrote:

so - iraq was a hotbed of terrorism prior to the invasion?

no, Iraq became a hotbed of terrorism after the invasion.

polaris wrote:

edit: and while you're at it - show me any kind of proof that this war did not in fact increase terrorism and extremism in the region

of course it increased. thats why we're still fighting over there.

polaris

lazymoon13 wrote:

no, Iraq became a hotbed of terrorism after the invasion.



of course it increased. thats why we're still fighting over there.

exactly my point

so, why invade iraq?

Answer: so, corporations can profit and us military and economic interests in the region are ensured ... you don't solve terrorism and extremism by invading, occupying a sovereing country and proceed to kill innocent people on a daily basis ...

lazymoon13

polaris wrote:

exactly my point

so, why invade iraq?

Answer: so, corporations can profit and us military and economic interests in the region are ensured ... you don't solve terrorism and extremism by invading, occupying a sovereing country and proceed to kill innocent people on a daily basis ...

ok. I thought you were referring to why we are still in Iraq/Afgah.

Answer: in part because we are fighting extreme Islam.

polaris

lazymoon13 wrote:

ok. I thought you were referring to why we are still in Iraq/Afgah.

Answer: in part because we are fighting extreme Islam.

soo ... can we assume that this invasion/occupation caused the increase in terrorist activity in the region?

if so - do you think it was intentional? ... understanding that the longer the conflict exists - the more money that has to be spent on military contracts, private security contracts, reconstruction contracts, etc ...

lazymoon13

polaris wrote:

soo ... can we assume that this invasion/occupation caused the increase in terrorist activity in the region?

if so - do you think it was intentional? ... understanding that the longer the conflict exists - the more money that has to be spent on military contracts, private security contracts, reconstruction contracts, etc ...

no need to assume. it has increased terrorist activity.

but you seem to think bush and co sat in the war room and decided to launch a war so they can very specifically make money.

making money from war is just a side effect of war. it shouldnt be seen as the intended purpose of launching one.