Leaving the tone of my post aside, I don't see what you could have been offended by in my post. I was just saying that I personally am scared shitless of a country that is trying to build nuclear weapons while simultaneously holding conferences to deny history's most horrific genocide and talking about carrying out a new genocide against Jews of Israel. I don't see what's offensive in that.
Please provide an example of where an Iranian has stated that he wished to carry out genocide against the Jews of Israel. He has said that the state of Israel should cease to exist. Many Israeli's have called for Palestine to cease to exist and are in fact implementing that wish by the use of a sustained illegal military occupation, and the daily terrorizing and murder of Palestinians. So what's your point?
regarding confrontation, though, and I say this seriously, I don't see what is to be gained from talking with Iran. We've tried this before. Carter, Reagan, and Clinton all tried to talk to Iran and got nowhere, and right now frankly Iran is laughing at how we are totally unable or unwilling to touch them despite the fact that everyone knows they are backing the very same people we're currently fighting in Iraq, that they are behind Hezbollah who are currently trying to overthrow the government of Lebanon, and on and on. I mean Iran already sees itself in a clash of civilizations with us. they think they are at war with us, but we just refuse to acknowledge the reality of the situation. I really think confrontation is coming and we should make sure it happens on our terms.
You sounds like a typical American. No knowledge of what's going on. Just a load of empty school playground bullshit. What do you mean 'they think they are at war with us'? Has Iran been threatening the U.S with sanctions and/or a full scale military inavsion, or even nuclear stikes? Or is it the other way around? Was it not the U.S that instgated the otherthrow of the Shah in 1979 and laid the groundwork for the present regime?
Whether we want to admit it or not (and nobody seems to want to)...Iraq is the Iranian front right now in this war. period.
Really? So there is no popular uprising in Iraq then? How convenient for Americans to think this. Just balme it on Iran or Syira so that you can give yourselves another bullshit reason for invading a soveriegn nation and murder another few hundred thousand people in the name of Ronald Macdonald and the star spangled banner.
no, i dont admit it. your view is not the only view my friend. i know you get a hard on for being an armchair general, but you're not in command. and the people in command now say we dont have the resources and iraq is a LONG way from being stable. it will be a decade at least before we're able to do jack shit about iran and furthermore, iraq was not necessary to stop iran. in fact, it's almost counter-productive. saddam hated iran. if we'd waited and stablized afghanistan, we'd still have an international coalition backing us and if iran was getting fresh like they are now, we'd have had that coalition at our backs to go in there and straighten them out. saddam would have been pissing himself out of fear of us and he'd have been eager to help or stay neutral... due to his dislike of iran and desperation to gain some sort of international credibility. instead, our coalition crumbled with ill will over our poor decisions in iraq and our military is tied down. THAT is why iran is not afraid to talk shit. they know we cant do a godamn thing about it. if we'd never have gone into iraq, we'd have the ayatollah or whatever-the-fuck his title is in jail right now
None of this gung-ho crap recognises the fact that the U.S has acted illegally in the face of international law and that it's leaders should be hung for crimes against humanity.
You guys are missing the point. All this means is that when we invade Iran, we can send millions of Iranians to concentration camps...euthanize them, and then deny that it ever happened.
what exactly is more of a threat than a state that calls America its enemy and has done so since 1979 without stop, that has been responsible for the deaths of Americans (and still is as we speak) and is seeking to acquire nuclear weapons?
I'd say that America is more of a threat for causing instability around the globe and acting unilaterally in the face of international law, with the sole aim of lining the pockets of a bunch of Texas oil men. A country run by a bunch of greedy little frat boys can never do any good in the world. America is widely perceived around the world to be the biggest threat to world peace that exists. Americans will always cook up one enemy or another. If it isn't communism infecting the purity of American life then it's drugs - Noriega? If it isn't drugs then it's those damn Cubans, or Haitians, or Salvadoreans, or It's Grenada posing a threat to the security of the U.S. If it isn't Grenada then it's Iraq with it's weapons arsenal consisting of sticks and rocks, and empty lorries which could be used to carry WMD's. If it's not Iraq then its' North Korea. If it's not North Korea threatening the tranquility of America's God fearing faithful, then it's Iran.
Wait a minute! I see a pattern here! Anyone who isn't American is a threat to America! :eek:
You guys are missing the point. All this means is that when we invade Iran, we can send millions of Iranians to concentration camps...euthanize them, and then deny that it ever happened.
Thank you...that's pretty much where I was going with this thread, thanks for bringing it back on track.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
I'd say that America is more of a threat for causing instability around the globe and acting unilaterally in the face of international law, with the sole aim of lining the pockets of a bunch of Texas oil men.
Your posts are usually well thought out and articulate, and it's obvious that you are well-educated....
But i'm going to take a wild stab here, and guess you aren't an economics major or don't have a degree in economics.
But yeah, this thread wasn't about the United States. It's well known that we are evil and there are plenty of threads about that.
I was just trying to figure out how to talk with people who deny that the halocaust even happened.
Seriously!!!! Where do we even BEGIN to talk?
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
But yeah, this thread wasn't about the United States. It's well known that we are evil and there are plenty of threads about that.
I was just trying to figure out how to talk with people who deny that the halocaust even happened.
Seriously!!!! Where do we even BEGIN to talk?
Firstly, I don't believe in evil. Secondly, If I did then I wouldn't say that the U.S is evil, although I may use that description to describe certain elements in positions of power in the U.S.
As far as figuring out how to talk with people who deny that the holocaust happened, I would suggest that we use the same methods which were used to discredit Dr David Irvine - I.e, reasoned analysis of the evidence.
We should not allow ourselves to be drawn into the freedom of speech debate just because a bunch of arseholes say something we don't like. There will always be people who say something that someone, somewhere, doesn't like. I'm sure that a lot of Iranians have taken offence in the not so distant past at the Islamaphobia and outright racism towards Arabs which has been displayed in the West.
We need to look at this more realistically. Ahmadinejad couldn't give a crap about the Holocaust and whether or not it happened. It's a political move on his part to maintain support for his leadership. It's the same way Bush will talk about illegal immigration. He couldn't care less about illegal immigration, but it electrifies voters and helps maintain his conservative base.
In reality, Ahmadinejad is just another asshole president. He wants to defend the country from the West and all that, which is nice...but let's not forget that the dialogue that we need has to happen between the populations of the U.S. and Iran...not between their leaders. Those are 2 very different things. Having some bullshit dialogue about the Holocaust won't help anyone.
We need to look at this more realistically. Ahmadinejad couldn't give a crap about the Holocaust and whether or not it happened. It's a political move on his part to maintain support for his leadership. It's the same way Bush will talk about illegal immigration. He couldn't care less about illegal immigration, but it electrifies voters and helps maintain his conservative base.
In reality, Ahmadinejad is just another asshole president. He wants to defend the country from the West and all that, which is nice...but let's not forget that the dialogue that we need has to happen between the populations of the U.S. and Iran...not between their leaders. Those are 2 very different things. Having some bullshit dialogue about the Holocaust won't help anyone.
Thank you...that's pretty much where I was going with this thread, thanks for bringing it back on track.
for someone who doesn't care about 2003 (see post #45), you seem hell bent on focusing events that happend in 1930's and 1940's...it's amusing how some pick and choose...
as for ahmadinejad...he's a prick with power and he is using it to "press buttons"...I bet if we did not pay him the attention he seeks, he would fade away with time, the attention-seeking statements would be seen as they really are, plain ol' hot air...
So you don't believe in freedom of speech then? Freedom of speech means freedom of speech for all, not freedom of speech for some.
can you not read? my post literally word for word said the exact opposite of what you just ascribed to it. i dont even know how you could possibly read that into what i wrote?
None of this gung-ho crap recognises the fact that the U.S has acted illegally in the face of international law and that it's leaders should be hung for crimes against humanity.
*sigh* this is why the conservatives always beat us. dont you realize im on your side?
As far as figuring out how to talk with people who deny that the holocaust happened, I would suggest that we use the same methods which were used to discredit Dr David Irvine - I.e, reasoned analysis of the evidence.
We should not allow ourselves to be drawn into the freedom of speech debate just because a bunch of arseholes say something we don't like. There will always be people who say something that someone, somewhere, doesn't like. I'm sure that a lot of Iranians have taken offence in the not so distant past at the Islamaphobia and outright racism towards Arabs which has been displayed in the West.
this doesnt work with fanatically religious people who blindly follow the leader. look how many americans still think the book of genesis is better science than evolution. discredit is only perceived as deception.
this doesnt work with fanatically religious people who blindly follow the leader. look how many americans still think the book of genesis is better science than evolution. discredit is only perceived as deception.
Good point.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Leaving the tone of my post aside, I don't see what you could have been offended by in my post. I was just saying that I personally am scared shitless of a country that is trying to build nuclear weapons while simultaneously holding conferences to deny history's most horrific genocide and talking about carrying out a new genocide against Jews of Israel. I don't see what's offensive in that.
Please provide an example of where an Iranian has stated that he wished to carry out genocide against the Jews of Israel. He has said that the state of Israel should cease to exist. Many Israeli's have called for Palestine to cease to exist and are in fact implementing that wish by the use of a sustained illegal military occupation, and the daily terrorizing and murder of Palestinians. So what's your point?
OK, I believe we've gotten into this before, so I'm not going to get dragged into an argument over Israel and Palestine. All I'm saying is that to my ears and to the ears of many other people the statements made about wiping Israel off the map sound genocidal, alot like the older Arab wish to drive the Jews of Israel into the sea. Given our previous arguments I don't expect to convince you of anything so hopefully we can agree to disagree.
You sounds like a typical American. No knowledge of what's going on. Just a load of empty school playground bullshit. What do you mean 'they think they are at war with us'? Has Iran been threatening the U.S with sanctions and/or a full scale military inavsion, or even nuclear stikes? Or is it the other way around? Was it not the U.S that instgated the otherthrow of the Shah in 1979 and laid the groundwork for the present regime?
Actually the US didn't instigate the revolution in 1979 as any student of history will tell you. The revolution was all about overthrowing the Shah who was an American ally, and the mantra of the revolution was death to America. More recently Iranian officials constantly talk about America as the enemy. Just look at some of the statements recorded on memri (http://www.memri.org) On top of that it is now openly stated what has been privately known for years, that Iran is behind many of the militias in Iraq that are tearing the country apart and killing American soldiers. That certainly seems to put them in conflict with America already.
Firstly, I don't believe in evil. Secondly, If I did then I wouldn't say that the U.S is evil, although I may use that description to describe certain elements in positions of power in the U.S.
As far as figuring out how to talk with people who deny that the holocaust happened, I would suggest that we use the same methods which were used to discredit Dr David Irvine - I.e, reasoned analysis of the evidence.
We should not allow ourselves to be drawn into the freedom of speech debate just because a bunch of arseholes say something we don't like. There will always be people who say something that someone, somewhere, doesn't like. I'm sure that a lot of Iranians have taken offence in the not so distant past at the Islamaphobia and outright racism towards Arabs which has been displayed in the West.
I'd just like to point out that we didn't really get into the freedom of speech thing on the thread. Pretty much everyone agrees that people should be able to say what they like so long as they aren't causing harm. As for reasoned debate I'd just point out that you call for it yourself, but you sound exceptionally unreasonable in your arguments about how terrible America is. If you value reasoned debate you should try to be a better model of it yourself.
OK, I believe we've gotten into this before, so I'm not going to get dragged into an argument over Israel and Palestine. All I'm saying is that to my ears and to the ears of many other people the statements made about wiping Israel off the map sound genocidal, alot like the older Arab wish to drive the Jews of Israel into the sea. Given our previous arguments I don't expect to convince you of anything so hopefully we can agree to disagree.
Fair enough.
I just don't believe we should put too much stock into comments of this type made by such leaders. If we were to look at all incendiary comments from Irans leader, Israel's leader, and Bush e.t.c, then I'm sure things would even out nicely.
Comments
Please provide an example of where an Iranian has stated that he wished to carry out genocide against the Jews of Israel. He has said that the state of Israel should cease to exist. Many Israeli's have called for Palestine to cease to exist and are in fact implementing that wish by the use of a sustained illegal military occupation, and the daily terrorizing and murder of Palestinians. So what's your point?
So you don't believe in freedom of speech then? Freedom of speech means freedom of speech for all, not freedom of speech for some.
You sounds like a typical American. No knowledge of what's going on. Just a load of empty school playground bullshit. What do you mean 'they think they are at war with us'? Has Iran been threatening the U.S with sanctions and/or a full scale military inavsion, or even nuclear stikes? Or is it the other way around? Was it not the U.S that instgated the otherthrow of the Shah in 1979 and laid the groundwork for the present regime?
Really? So there is no popular uprising in Iraq then? How convenient for Americans to think this. Just balme it on Iran or Syira so that you can give yourselves another bullshit reason for invading a soveriegn nation and murder another few hundred thousand people in the name of Ronald Macdonald and the star spangled banner.
None of this gung-ho crap recognises the fact that the U.S has acted illegally in the face of international law and that it's leaders should be hung for crimes against humanity.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
I'd say that America is more of a threat for causing instability around the globe and acting unilaterally in the face of international law, with the sole aim of lining the pockets of a bunch of Texas oil men. A country run by a bunch of greedy little frat boys can never do any good in the world. America is widely perceived around the world to be the biggest threat to world peace that exists. Americans will always cook up one enemy or another. If it isn't communism infecting the purity of American life then it's drugs - Noriega? If it isn't drugs then it's those damn Cubans, or Haitians, or Salvadoreans, or It's Grenada posing a threat to the security of the U.S. If it isn't Grenada then it's Iraq with it's weapons arsenal consisting of sticks and rocks, and empty lorries which could be used to carry WMD's. If it's not Iraq then its' North Korea. If it's not North Korea threatening the tranquility of America's God fearing faithful, then it's Iran.
Wait a minute! I see a pattern here! Anyone who isn't American is a threat to America! :eek:
Thank you...that's pretty much where I was going with this thread, thanks for bringing it back on track.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Your posts are usually well thought out and articulate, and it's obvious that you are well-educated....
But i'm going to take a wild stab here, and guess you aren't an economics major or don't have a degree in economics.
But yeah, this thread wasn't about the United States. It's well known that we are evil and there are plenty of threads about that.
I was just trying to figure out how to talk with people who deny that the halocaust even happened.
Seriously!!!! Where do we even BEGIN to talk?
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Firstly, I don't believe in evil. Secondly, If I did then I wouldn't say that the U.S is evil, although I may use that description to describe certain elements in positions of power in the U.S.
As far as figuring out how to talk with people who deny that the holocaust happened, I would suggest that we use the same methods which were used to discredit Dr David Irvine - I.e, reasoned analysis of the evidence.
We should not allow ourselves to be drawn into the freedom of speech debate just because a bunch of arseholes say something we don't like. There will always be people who say something that someone, somewhere, doesn't like. I'm sure that a lot of Iranians have taken offence in the not so distant past at the Islamaphobia and outright racism towards Arabs which has been displayed in the West.
In reality, Ahmadinejad is just another asshole president. He wants to defend the country from the West and all that, which is nice...but let's not forget that the dialogue that we need has to happen between the populations of the U.S. and Iran...not between their leaders. Those are 2 very different things. Having some bullshit dialogue about the Holocaust won't help anyone.
Fair point.
for someone who doesn't care about 2003 (see post #45), you seem hell bent on focusing events that happend in 1930's and 1940's...it's amusing how some pick and choose...
as for ahmadinejad...he's a prick with power and he is using it to "press buttons"...I bet if we did not pay him the attention he seeks, he would fade away with time, the attention-seeking statements would be seen as they really are, plain ol' hot air...
can you not read? my post literally word for word said the exact opposite of what you just ascribed to it. i dont even know how you could possibly read that into what i wrote?
*sigh* this is why the conservatives always beat us. dont you realize im on your side?
this doesnt work with fanatically religious people who blindly follow the leader. look how many americans still think the book of genesis is better science than evolution. discredit is only perceived as deception.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Those who do not fear death, don't die.
OK, I believe we've gotten into this before, so I'm not going to get dragged into an argument over Israel and Palestine. All I'm saying is that to my ears and to the ears of many other people the statements made about wiping Israel off the map sound genocidal, alot like the older Arab wish to drive the Jews of Israel into the sea. Given our previous arguments I don't expect to convince you of anything so hopefully we can agree to disagree.
Actually the US didn't instigate the revolution in 1979 as any student of history will tell you. The revolution was all about overthrowing the Shah who was an American ally, and the mantra of the revolution was death to America. More recently Iranian officials constantly talk about America as the enemy. Just look at some of the statements recorded on memri (http://www.memri.org) On top of that it is now openly stated what has been privately known for years, that Iran is behind many of the militias in Iraq that are tearing the country apart and killing American soldiers. That certainly seems to put them in conflict with America already.
I'd just like to point out that we didn't really get into the freedom of speech thing on the thread. Pretty much everyone agrees that people should be able to say what they like so long as they aren't causing harm. As for reasoned debate I'd just point out that you call for it yourself, but you sound exceptionally unreasonable in your arguments about how terrible America is. If you value reasoned debate you should try to be a better model of it yourself.
Fair enough.
I just don't believe we should put too much stock into comments of this type made by such leaders. If we were to look at all incendiary comments from Irans leader, Israel's leader, and Bush e.t.c, then I'm sure things would even out nicely.