let the dialogue begin!

Purple Hawk

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6167695.stm

What a wonderful start. Bakerasaurous, O'Connerasauras, and all the rest of those irrelevant, self-absorbed losers have got to be happy that we are finally starting to reach a consensus. How GOOD does this make us all feel? MMM...I am SO glad we are FINALLY trying to understand one another.

Iran defends Holocaust conference
Iran's foreign minister has rejected criticism of a two-day conference being held in Iran to examine whether the Holocaust actually happened.
Manouchehr Mottaki told participants the event did not seek to confirm or deny the Holocaust, but rather to allow people to "express their views freely".

Israel's prime minister has condemned the gathering as "a sick phenomenon".

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has questioned the scale of the Holocaust, in which six million Jews died.

According to the foreign ministry in Tehran, 67 researchers from 30 countries are attending the conference in Iran, which is home to 25,000 Jews.


Its main aim is to create an opportunity for thinkers who cannot express their views freely in Europe about the Holocaust
Manouchehr Mottaki
Iranian foreign minister


Participants include a number of well-known "revisionist" Western academics. American David Duke, a former leader of the Ku Klux Klan, is to present a paper.

But a number of Jewish rabbis are also there. One, British Rabbi Ahron Cohen, said he had come to the conference to put the "Orthodox Jewish viewpoint" across.

"We certainly say there was a Holocaust, we lived through the Holocaust. But in no way can it be used as a justification for perpetrating unjust acts against the Palestinians," he said.

'Express views freely'

Opening the conference, Mr Mottaki said the aim of the conference was "not to deny or confirm the Holocaust".

"Its main aim is to create an opportunity for thinkers who cannot express their views freely in Europe about the Holocaust," he said.


CONFERENCE PARTICIPANTS
Australian Fredrick Toeben , jailed in Germany for incitement and insulting the memory of the dead
Frenchman Robert Faurisson , convicted in France under Holocaust denial laws
Frenchman Georges Thiel , convicted in France under Holocaust denial laws
American David Duke , a former KKK leader and white supremacist

Mr Mottaki dismissed foreign criticism as "predictable", telling delegates there was "no logical reason" to oppose the conference.
In a recorded address broadcast to the nation, President Ahmadinejad questioned why the West would not allow "any investigation" into the Holocaust.

Mr Ahmadinejad has repeatedly downplayed the extent of the Holocaust, describing it as a myth used to justify the existence of Israel and oppression of the Palestinians. He has called for Israel to be dismantled.

But in a number of European countries - including Germany, Austria and France - it is illegal to deny the Holocaust. An Austrian court jailed Briton David Irving for three years on charges of Holocaust denial.

'Negative impression'

Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert condemned the conference as "a sick phenomenon that shows the depths of hatred of the fundamentalist Iranian regime".

Norbert Lammert, president of the German parliament, sent a letter to Mr Ahmadinejad criticising the event.


"I condemn any attempt to offer anti-Semitic propaganda a public forum under the pretext of scientific freedom and objectivity," he wrote.
A number of prominent Holocaust historians are attending a rival gathering taking place in Berlin, backed by the German government, in protest at the Tehran conference.

The US state department last week described the Iranian event as "yet another disgraceful act on this particular subject by the regime in Tehran".

Iran knows this conference is going to cause outrage abroad but it says it wants to test the limits of the West's commitment to freedom of speech, says the BBC's correspondent in Tehran, Frances Harrison.

Iran is drawing a parallel with the Danish cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad, which provoked outrage in the Islamic world but were defended by Western liberals, she says.

Iran's one Jewish MP, Morris Motamed, told the BBC he opposed the conference.

"Holding this conference after having a competition of cartoons about the Holocaust has put a lot of pressure on Jews all over the world and it can give nations and governments a very negative impression of Iran," he said.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/6167695.stm

Published: 2006/12/11 18:12:48 GMT

dayan

Yeah Iran's great. Nice to know that these guys are going for the bomb. Also nice to note how this conference meshes and the nuclear ambitions mesh so well with the wipe Israel off the map rhetoric. Gotta love it.

Purple Hawk

dayan wrote:

Yeah Iran's great. Nice to know that these guys are going for the bomb. Also nice to note how this conference meshes and the nuclear ambitions mesh so well with the wipe Israel off the map rhetoric. Gotta love it.

What an arrogant response! We must listen to the other side. We can't let our arrogance blind us. This awful, angry, discourse is not constructive. we must LISTEN.

Of course, we should have no expectations that they listen to us...but to solve the problem, we need to address our exploitive ways. We must address how we are the sick, twisted, autocratic hegemony. But putting our point of view out there...that is shoving democracy down the world's throats.

Sorry Dayan, many are offended by your reply.

yosi1

Purple Hawk wrote:

What an arrogant response! We must listen to the other side. We can't let our arrogance blind us. This awful, angry, discourse is not constructive. we must LISTEN.

Of course, we should have no expectations that they listen to us...but to solve the problem, we need to address our exploitive ways. We must address how we are the sick, twisted, autocratic hegemony. But putting our point of view out there...that is shoving democracy down the world's throats.

Sorry Dayan, many are offended by your reply.

What are you talking about?

dayan

Leaving the tone of my post aside, I don't see what you could have been offended by in my post. I was just saying that I personally am scared shitless of a country that is trying to build nuclear weapons while simultaneously holding conferences to deny history's most horrific genocide and talking about carrying out a new genocide against Jews of Israel. I don't see what's offensive in that.

soulsinging

dayan wrote:

Leaving the tone of my post aside, I don't see what you could have been offended by in my post. I was just saying that I personally am scared shitless of a country that is trying to build nuclear weapons while simultaneously holding conferences to deny history's most horrific genocide and talking about carrying out a new genocide against Jews of Israel. I don't see what's offensive in that.

he was making a poor attempt at satire. it ended up mere charicature.

dayan

my bad...I get it now, and I'm right there with you

Purple Hawk

soulsinging wrote:

he was making a poor attempt at satire. it ended up mere charicature.

Trust me, a majority of posters here were offended by his (and my) post. And I mean, I can get that. Focusing on what world leaders are saying and doing is so much more offensive than paying attention to has-been actors/producers/comedians and freaking out at what talk show hosts are saying.

rebornFixer

All this promotion of free speech gives me the warm fuzzies ...

Purple Hawk

reborncareerist wrote:

All this promotion of free speech gives me the warm fuzzies ...

See...you get it. Me too. I just feel really good that we are finally talking.

CorporateWhore

Free speech is so important. It's pretty disturbing that some countries do not hold it as sacred as the U.S.

Even the most vile and disgusting speech, so long as it does not directly promote violence or personal injury, should be tolerated. I cannot see how denying the holocaust's numbers does this.

I agree that around 6 million jews died during the holocaust. Nonetheless, no topic should be off-limits in educated circles. If a person has information they believe supports their position, then let her speak.

rebornFixer

CorporateWhore wrote:

Free speech is so important. It's pretty disturbing that some countries do not hold it as sacred as the U.S.

Even the most vile and disgusting speech, so long as it does not directly promote violence or personal injury, should be tolerated. I cannot see how denying the holocaust's numbers does this.

I agree that around 6 million jews died during the holocaust. Nonetheless, no topic should be off-limits in educated circles. If a person has information they believe supports their position, then let her speak.

Do you actually mean that? Is so, then everyone's views should be freely heard ... Tea and crumpets with the local skinheads, anyone?

dayan

Yeah, I don't think that Holocaust deniers should be forcibly silenced. They should just be ignored, and or reviled. Also denying the genocides of the past is the first step to perpetrating the genocides of the future...especially in this case.

rebornFixer

dayan wrote:

Yeah, I don't think that Holocaust deniers should be forcibly silenced. They should just be ignored, and or reviled. Also denying the genocides of the past is the first step to perpetrating the genocides of the future...especially in this case.

For sure. I am actually with Corporate Whore, when he or she argues that such people should not be forceably silenced. However, its easy to forget about the responsibilities that come along with the right to free speech. The motives of Iran's government are not pure ... This is perverting free speech in the name of antagonism and hatred. Maybe offensive cartoons about Muslims are a lesser version of that as well ... Personally, I think there is a difference between satirical cartoons as a thought experiment and deliberate promulgation of hatred.

dayan

Agreed entirely. Also Iran is invoking free speech when that right isn't accorded to Iran's own citizens. I read recently, I think in the Wall Street Journal, that the Iranian government just arrested a labor leader for trying to organize a union for Tehran's bus drivers. They arrested him and then had his tongue sliced with razor blades. Not the people to be lecturing the West on moral behavior.

soulsinging

Purple Hawk wrote:

Trust me, a majority of posters here were offended by his (and my) post. And I mean, I can get that. Focusing on what world leaders are saying and doing is so much more offensive than paying attention to has-been actors/producers/comedians and freaking out at what talk show hosts are saying.

i suppose you have statistical evidence of that? you have your blinding, unquestion hatred of liberals and so assume all your conclusions about them are correct. i dont think there is a person here who would say this conference is not misguided and offensive.

CorporateWhore

reborncareerist wrote:

For sure. I am actually with Corporate Whore, when he or she argues that such people should not be forceably silenced. However, its easy to forget about the responsibilities that come along with the right to free speech. The motives of Iran's government are not pure ... This is perverting free speech in the name of antagonism and hatred. Maybe offensive cartoons about Muslims are a lesser version of that as well ... Personally, I think there is a difference between satirical cartoons as a thought experiment and deliberate promulgation of hatred.

The European countries are so well educated that it is unnecessary for them to forcibly silence holocaust deniers.

Additionally, these people are denying numbers, not that it happened, by and large. The numbers have changed over the years too. Still, their motives are clearly not pure, but that doesn't mean people with pure motives should be silenced.

soulsinging

reborncareerist wrote:

Do you actually mean that? Is so, then everyone's views should be freely heard ... Tea and crumpets with the local skinheads, anyone?

yes, they should. and in fact, the supreme court has upheld this right and protected the rights of skinheads and the KKK to demonstrate. as it should.

dayan

Who said anything about hating liberals.

dayan

skinheads should have the right to their speech, and the rest of us have the right to say that skinheads are pieces of shit. Agreed?

Purple Hawk

soulsinging wrote:

i suppose you have statistical evidence of that? you have your blinding, unquestion hatred of liberals and so assume all your conclusions about them are correct. i dont think there is a person here who would say this conference is not misguided and offensive.

misguided and offensive. now those are some strong words. i'm not sure the UN security council would agree on those words...maybe given 3 months, they can work out the specific language.

the point is...is that there is nothing to talk about with this guy.

I know confrontation makes almost everyone uncomfortable, but if you don't think one is coming from this guy, sorry, you are the one with blinders on.