It would be great to get rid of terrorism, that way Muslims can go back to what they are good at, limiting rights for women, limiting free speech, limiting religion, etc....
The good ole days, right? You act like America is the cause of everything that is wrong in the Middle East, when in fact, Islamic fundamentalism plays the largest role.
Social problems in the Middle East have nothing to do with America, no. That is definitely due to religious fundamentalism. But terrorism and fundamentalism don't have a causal relationship. There's fundamentalism everywhere...it's in America too. We see terrorist attacks on abortion clinics and federal buildings by religious fundamentalists and other sorts of activity like that. But nobody blames Christian fundamentalism for it, and rightly so. A lot of people do a lot of bad things in the name of religion, and they're all full of crap when they talk about "I'm doing because God/Allah/whoever wants me to"....they do it because they're pissed off about something and they don't know how to deal with it in any other way except through violence. They're totally wrong and nuts for doing what they're doing, but I think a lot of violent acts like that could've been prevented if the person wasn't so pissed off in the first place. And these nuts in the Middle East are definitely pissed off about Israel, about America's unconditional support for Israel, about America's support of some of the brutal regimes that rule them, etc.
Where would men be without intelligent women keeping them in line?
'and I can't imagine why you wouldn't welcome any change, my brother'
'How a culture can forget its plan of yesterday
and you swear it's not a trend
it doesn't matter anyway
there's no need to talk as friends
nothing news everyday
all the kids will eat it up
if it's packaged properly'
Human was the first time, I think everyone jumped aboard.
Not me.
As soon as they began beating the war drums I thought "What does bombing the shit out of a country have to do with defeating terrorism"?
The English didn't drop bombs on Northern Ireland, so why drop bombs on Afghanistan?
Not me.
As soon as they began beating the war drums I thought "What does bombing the shit out of a country have to do with defeating terrorism"?
The English didn't drop bombs on Northern Ireland, so why drop bombs on Afghanistan?
I didn't jump on board, either. Not that I believe the official story but less than 3,000 died, we kill or help kill more than that every year for decades.
You can't use aggression as an answer to aggression
'and I can't imagine why you wouldn't welcome any change, my brother'
'How a culture can forget its plan of yesterday
and you swear it's not a trend
it doesn't matter anyway
there's no need to talk as friends
nothing news everyday
all the kids will eat it up
if it's packaged properly'
How have you done this for months and months, it says you just joined like 2 weeks ago??
The election was going on long before I joined here, and I am able to have conversations with people that don't involve the internet... it's a social skill I suspect many here lack. Nobody is more condescending and arrogant and self-righteous than a left-winger. I know, I used to be one. I campaigned for Nader in 2000. My firsthand experience with these attitudes goes back a long way, but it's gotten worse recently as people like some of the folks in this thread insist that nobody with a brain would ever consider voting for Obama... that every vote cast for the man was cast by a deluded sheep who will never be willing to admit he's done anything wrong. It's become tiresome.
Not me.
As soon as they began beating the war drums I thought "What does bombing the shit out of a country have to do with defeating terrorism"?
The English didn't drop bombs on Northern Ireland, so why drop bombs on Afghanistan?
Exactly. I think it's bullshit that people try to use the excuse of "9/11 scared me so I had to support the war." While it's too late to change anything, people should realize they ARE indeed responsible for all those deaths, and they need to learn not to be so foolish next time.
The election was going on long before I joined here, and I am able to have conversations with people that don't involve the internet... it's a social skill I suspect many here lack. Nobody is more condescending and arrogant and self-righteous than a left-winger. I know, I used to be one. I campaigned for Nader in 2000. My firsthand experience with these attitudes goes back a long way, but it's gotten worse recently as people like some of the folks in this thread insist that nobody with a brain would ever consider voting for Obama... that every vote cast for the man was cast by a deluded sheep who will never be willing to admit he's done anything wrong. It's become tiresome.
I found it amusing you started your post being condescending then proceeded to complain about others doing it.
I didn't notice anyone being so absolute towards Obama supporters in this thread as you claim.
'and I can't imagine why you wouldn't welcome any change, my brother'
'How a culture can forget its plan of yesterday
and you swear it's not a trend
it doesn't matter anyway
there's no need to talk as friends
nothing news everyday
all the kids will eat it up
if it's packaged properly'
I intended to come off annoyed, not condescending. The above is one of about 9 posts I've seen by this guy in just 2 weeks that say essentially the same thing, and he's not the only one.
All I'm saying is the guy's been elected for not even 30 days, he's not signed any laws or issued any executive orders, and I'm still just riding a little high on the fact that we're getting rid of Dubya and having a shot at maybe turning this country around a bit. It's one thing to piss on my parade, I could live with that. But people like the above poster, on and offline, have spent past 3 weeks claiming to know who I am and why I voted for him and what I expect from him and it's getting very, very old. It's like they are hoping for a massive, catastrophic failure just because it would give them a chance to gloat, without regard to how bad it would be for us as a country.
It would be great to get rid of terrorism, that way Muslims can go back to what they are good at, limiting rights for women, limiting free speech, limiting religion, etc....
The good ole days, right? You act like America is the cause of everything that is wrong in the Middle East, when in fact, Islamic fundamentalism plays the largest role.
That is just not true. Fundamentalism does not play the largest role and yes America is the cause for many problems in the mid east. All? No, but many, Mainly in the last 60 or so years.
btw, before America existed, in many Muslim countries, free speech, Math, science, art...Womens rights, = rights! were what Muslim were good at.
That is just not true. Fundamentalism does not play the largest role and yes America is the cause for many problems in the mid east. All? No, but many, Mainly in the last 60 or so years.
btw, before America existed, in many Muslim countries, free speech, Math, science, art...Womens rights, = rights! were what Muslim were good at.
So when did they take away women's rights? Or is getting stoned to death to save her family's honor because three dudes ganged raped her a part of it?
So when did they take away women's rights? Or is getting stoned to death to save her family's honor because three dudes ganged raped her a part of it?
You speak as if people in the middle east are going around stoning women all day. These kind of things happen in very rural areas in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia who haven't really opened up to the world yet. Since you will mention Iran, well they happen to treat men to the same aggressive laws in that country.
If you take away law enforcement from some states in America I'd be willing to bet some white supremacists will go on a brutal killing rampage of African-Americans. Evil lurks in all places.
So when did they take away women's rights? Or is getting stoned to death to save her family's honor because three dudes ganged raped her a part of it?
What...in the US backed Saudi Arabia? Nothing religious about them. They are hypocrites, kings in palaces. Protected by America.
Or do you mean Iran? You know they were doing well until the CIA coup of Mossedeq, the democratically elected leader of Iran. Who the US took down and gave the people of Iran the corrupt Shah.
Maybe Afghanistan, another country will fountains and peace, until the soviets invaded them and America used them and left them to rot under so called religous people.
Maybe Pakistan? Shit, they have already had a female president.
What...in the US backed Saudi Arabia? Nothing religious about them. They are hypocrites, kings in palaces. Protected by America.
Or do you mean Iran? You know they were doing well until the CIA coup of Mossedeq, the democratically elected leader of Iran. Who the US took down and gave the people of Iran the corrupt Shah.
Maybe Afghanistan, another country will fountains and peace, until the soviets invaded them and America used them and left them to rot under so called religous people.
Maybe Pakistan? Shit, they have already had a female president.
Oh come on. America's foreign policy tends to suck badly but human beings didn't wait for the CIA to exist to become prejudiced, stupid, intolerant, violent and extremist. People in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran and rural parts of most countries in the world do that very well on there own. It has more to do with a lack of education/contact with a wide world than a massive worlwide scheme by the CIA to make the muslims look bad.
The law in saudi arabia is backwards and shitty, that's a fact. The oppression and lack of freedom in ex-Taliban-controlled afghanistan and Iran is high, that's also true. This doesn't have much to do with muslim faith but it's still true.
Oh come on. America's foreign policy tends to suck badly but human beings didn't wait for the CIA to exist to become prejudiced, stupid, intolerant, violent and extremist. People in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran and rural parts of most countries in the world do that very well on there own. It has more to do with a lack of education/contact with a wide world than a massive worlwide scheme by the CIA to make the muslims look bad.
The law in saudi arabia is backwards and shitty, that's a fact. The oppression and lack of freedom in ex-Taliban-controlled afghanistan and Iran is high, that's also true. This doesn't have much to do with muslim faith but it's still true.
Sure! But my reply was to this
-So when did they take away women's rights? Or is getting stoned to death to save her family's honor because three dudes ganged raped her a part of it?
----
I was pointing out how those 3 main countries on focus have been heavily hurt by US policy and in the case Of saudi arabia, it's protected by the Americans.
Of course intolerant and ignorant people can be found in any corner of the world.
Oh come on. America's foreign policy tends to suck badly but human beings didn't wait for the CIA to exist to become prejudiced, stupid, intolerant, violent and extremist. People in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran and rural parts of most countries in the world do that very well on there own. It has more to do with a lack of education/contact with a wide world than a massive worlwide scheme by the CIA to make the muslims look bad.
The law in saudi arabia is backwards and shitty, that's a fact. The oppression and lack of freedom in ex-Taliban-controlled afghanistan and Iran is high, that's also true. This doesn't have much to do with muslim faith but it's still true.
what allows extremism to exist is fear ... it's part of the shock doctrine i suppose ... you have to look at countries like iran to see - once a burgeoning centre of democracy and freedom in the middle east ... then a cia funded coup put a dictator in ... and now look at the place ... these hard liners rule a populace that is generally quite liberal ...
I hate to be the stupid 'can't we all just get along' guy, but I think it's equally close-minded to say that the problems with Islamic fundamentalism stem entirely from American intervention in the reasons as it is to say that we've had absolutely no impact. Extremism feeds on ignorance and poverty, two things of which there are unfortunately a great amount in the rural regions of these countries. There are human rights abuses in these countries beyond the pale, and it doesn't ALL stem from us. I think we have to be careful that in our attempt to gauge our responsibility for the instability of the region, we move to condone or explain away such behavior. I doubt many here would be willing to condone the actions of an abortion clinic doctor, simply due to his commitment to what he feels is right and the injustices he feels has been done to the unborn. Despite the shit that we've caused (and we've caused alot of shit), in the end people need to be held personally responsible for their actions. You can call the U.S. a destructive force in the region, but all the destructive actions alone cannot put someone in the cockpit of a hijacked plane. There's no past degredation that can condone such actions (which I'm not saying people here were saying, I'm just concerned that this is what those conversations sometimes lead towards).
I found it amusing you started your post being condescending then proceeded to complain about others doing it.
I didn't notice anyone being so absolute towards Obama supporters in this thread as you claim.
I sure can vouch for such attitudes. As an Obama supporter I've been on the receiving end of it sometimes (although many posters disagree with me and others with absolutely no codescencion). I think that is less a problem of solely left-wingers, and more of a problem with absolutists in general. If you see the world as all one way or one thing, then you're probably going to be a little condescending towards those that don't. Just something I've felt in my time here and in the real world.
I hate to be the stupid 'can't we all just get along' guy, but I think it's equally close-minded to say that the problems with Islamic fundamentalism stem entirely from American intervention in the reasons as it is to say that we've had absolutely no impact. Extremism feeds on ignorance and poverty, two things of which there are unfortunately a great amount in the rural regions of these countries. There are human rights abuses in these countries beyond the pale, and it doesn't ALL stem from us. I think we have to be careful that in our attempt to gauge our responsibility for the instability of the region, we move to condone or explain away such behavior. I doubt many here would be willing to condone the actions of an abortion clinic doctor, simply due to his commitment to what he feels is right and the injustices he feels has been done to the unborn. Despite the shit that we've caused (and we've caused alot of shit), in the end people need to be held personally responsible for their actions. You can call the U.S. a destructive force in the region, but all the destructive actions alone cannot put someone in the cockpit of a hijacked plane. There's no past degredation that can condone such actions (which I'm not saying people here were saying, I'm just concerned that this is what those conversations sometimes lead towards).
in many cases that prosperity gap is caused by us intervention ... it's not always military intervention, there is economic influences as well ... yes - the US is not solely what ails the world but failure to acknowledge the impacts of exploitive policies is what puts us in the state we are in now ...
I'd say the Cold War had more to do with a lot of these problems than a simple "U.S. is bad" thing. The U.S. and other members of NATO tried to keep the U.S.S.R. from expanding its empire into the Middle East and Africa. In the process some bad people got put into high positions. Dirty dealing all around, so don't think that the Brits and France and others weren't involved.
"Almost all those politicians took money from Enron, and there they are holding hearings. That's like O.J. Simpson getting in the Rae Carruth jury pool." -- Charles Barkley
All it would take is one small attack on US soil to put this country in a frenzy and write the government a blank check to do whatever..
So when the next attack happens, and 30, 100, maybe 3000 people die.. how many million more are we going to kill in retaliation? What is the 9/11 retaliation total as of now?
The big question I'm getting at, is can Obama fight terrorism more efficiently than Bush?
You have two options the way I see it. You can be a pussy, let them push you around and hope they go away, or you can be tough and keep poking at the bees nest... It's a lose, lose situation.. humanity amazes me sometimes.
we have never been able to end violent crime. there are millions of violent crimes in America alone every year. Now we call it terrorism is it servers our unmentionalble purposes. All we need do is not stand for it. But too many voters like it.
Oh come on. America's foreign policy tends to suck badly but human beings didn't wait for the CIA to exist to become prejudiced, stupid, intolerant, violent and extremist. People in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran and rural parts of most countries in the world do that very well on there own. It has more to do with a lack of education/contact with a wide world than a massive worlwide scheme by the CIA to make the muslims look bad.
The law in saudi arabia is backwards and shitty, that's a fact. The oppression and lack of freedom in ex-Taliban-controlled afghanistan and Iran is high, that's also true. This doesn't have much to do with muslim faith but it's still true.
Yea, I think our foreign policy pisses people off...plain and simple. It doesn't directly cause social problems like horrible treatment of women and gay people, lack of free speech, basically no freedom of religion, etc. Our policies support the regimes who cause all these social problems, making it harder for the people to fight against them, but the problems were there before America or Britain or Russia started messing with the region.
"Jeremiah (Wright) was a bull frog...
he was a good friend of mine...
I never understood a fuckin sin-gle
word he said because my Ipod just
blew my mind.
He said CHANGE... to the the world ,
all the boys and girls, CHANGE to the fishies
in the deep blue sea , CHANGE to you and me."
honey....wake up...
huh? wha?
you fell asleep during the sermon with your Ipod on again.
Oh I did? heh...good sermon honey....The lord spoke to me through my Ipod...he sang me some CCR this time. I freaking love this little Ipod thing...it's so tiny and freakin cool...anyhow...let's bust this shit hole...I'll go get the car...watch the kids will ya?
See ya next Sunday Reverend... (tosses spare change in the collection plate)
That wasn't CCR. It really wasn't much of anything.
Comments
thank goodness youve seen the error of your ways.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Where would men be without intelligent women keeping them in line?
'How a culture can forget its plan of yesterday
and you swear it's not a trend
it doesn't matter anyway
there's no need to talk as friends
nothing news everyday
all the kids will eat it up
if it's packaged properly'
starting wars... oh wait...
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Not me.
As soon as they began beating the war drums I thought "What does bombing the shit out of a country have to do with defeating terrorism"?
The English didn't drop bombs on Northern Ireland, so why drop bombs on Afghanistan?
I didn't jump on board, either. Not that I believe the official story but less than 3,000 died, we kill or help kill more than that every year for decades.
You can't use aggression as an answer to aggression
'How a culture can forget its plan of yesterday
and you swear it's not a trend
it doesn't matter anyway
there's no need to talk as friends
nothing news everyday
all the kids will eat it up
if it's packaged properly'
The election was going on long before I joined here, and I am able to have conversations with people that don't involve the internet... it's a social skill I suspect many here lack. Nobody is more condescending and arrogant and self-righteous than a left-winger. I know, I used to be one. I campaigned for Nader in 2000. My firsthand experience with these attitudes goes back a long way, but it's gotten worse recently as people like some of the folks in this thread insist that nobody with a brain would ever consider voting for Obama... that every vote cast for the man was cast by a deluded sheep who will never be willing to admit he's done anything wrong. It's become tiresome.
Ah, a born again republican. That explains a lot.
So what changed your mind? Did you start earning a lot of money?
More of a born-again democrat, or maybe libertarian. Or you could call me a former hippy that's now in recovery.
I found it amusing you started your post being condescending then proceeded to complain about others doing it.
I didn't notice anyone being so absolute towards Obama supporters in this thread as you claim.
'How a culture can forget its plan of yesterday
and you swear it's not a trend
it doesn't matter anyway
there's no need to talk as friends
nothing news everyday
all the kids will eat it up
if it's packaged properly'
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=6028414&postcount=3
I intended to come off annoyed, not condescending. The above is one of about 9 posts I've seen by this guy in just 2 weeks that say essentially the same thing, and he's not the only one.
All I'm saying is the guy's been elected for not even 30 days, he's not signed any laws or issued any executive orders, and I'm still just riding a little high on the fact that we're getting rid of Dubya and having a shot at maybe turning this country around a bit. It's one thing to piss on my parade, I could live with that. But people like the above poster, on and offline, have spent past 3 weeks claiming to know who I am and why I voted for him and what I expect from him and it's getting very, very old. It's like they are hoping for a massive, catastrophic failure just because it would give them a chance to gloat, without regard to how bad it would be for us as a country.
7-11-95, 6-14-98, 6-26-98, 6-27-98, 6-29-98, 8-17-98, 08-18-00, 8-20-00, 09-05-00, 10-7-00, 10-8-00, 10-9-00, 10-11-00, 4-21-03, 4-22-03, 4-23-03, 4-25-03, 04-26-03, 6-18-03, 6-21-03, 6-22-03, 6-25-03, 06-26-03, 10-3-04, 9-11-05, 9-12-05, 9-13-05, 5-9-06, 5-10-06, 5-16-06, 5-17-06, 5-19-06, 5-20-06, 6-23-06, 6-24-06, 6-29-06, 8-5-07, E.V. Milwaukee and Chicago night 1, 8-23-09,08-24-09, 5-7-10, 5-9-10, E.V. 6-28-011, 9-3-11, 9-4-11, 7-19-13, 10-11-13, 10-3-14, 10-17-14, 10-20-14, E.V. 04-26-16, 08-20-16, 08-22-16, 8-20-18, 8-22-18, 9-16-22, 9-18-22, 9-5-23, 9-7-23, 9-10-23
That is just not true. Fundamentalism does not play the largest role and yes America is the cause for many problems in the mid east. All? No, but many, Mainly in the last 60 or so years.
btw, before America existed, in many Muslim countries, free speech, Math, science, art...Womens rights, = rights! were what Muslim were good at.
So when did they take away women's rights? Or is getting stoned to death to save her family's honor because three dudes ganged raped her a part of it?
You speak as if people in the middle east are going around stoning women all day. These kind of things happen in very rural areas in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia who haven't really opened up to the world yet. Since you will mention Iran, well they happen to treat men to the same aggressive laws in that country.
If you take away law enforcement from some states in America I'd be willing to bet some white supremacists will go on a brutal killing rampage of African-Americans. Evil lurks in all places.
What...in the US backed Saudi Arabia? Nothing religious about them. They are hypocrites, kings in palaces. Protected by America.
Or do you mean Iran? You know they were doing well until the CIA coup of Mossedeq, the democratically elected leader of Iran. Who the US took down and gave the people of Iran the corrupt Shah.
Maybe Afghanistan, another country will fountains and peace, until the soviets invaded them and America used them and left them to rot under so called religous people.
Maybe Pakistan? Shit, they have already had a female president.
The law in saudi arabia is backwards and shitty, that's a fact. The oppression and lack of freedom in ex-Taliban-controlled afghanistan and Iran is high, that's also true. This doesn't have much to do with muslim faith but it's still true.
Sure! But my reply was to this
-So when did they take away women's rights? Or is getting stoned to death to save her family's honor because three dudes ganged raped her a part of it?
----
I was pointing out how those 3 main countries on focus have been heavily hurt by US policy and in the case Of saudi arabia, it's protected by the Americans.
Of course intolerant and ignorant people can be found in any corner of the world.
what allows extremism to exist is fear ... it's part of the shock doctrine i suppose ... you have to look at countries like iran to see - once a burgeoning centre of democracy and freedom in the middle east ... then a cia funded coup put a dictator in ... and now look at the place ... these hard liners rule a populace that is generally quite liberal ...
I sure can vouch for such attitudes. As an Obama supporter I've been on the receiving end of it sometimes (although many posters disagree with me and others with absolutely no codescencion). I think that is less a problem of solely left-wingers, and more of a problem with absolutists in general. If you see the world as all one way or one thing, then you're probably going to be a little condescending towards those that don't. Just something I've felt in my time here and in the real world.
in many cases that prosperity gap is caused by us intervention ... it's not always military intervention, there is economic influences as well ... yes - the US is not solely what ails the world but failure to acknowledge the impacts of exploitive policies is what puts us in the state we are in now ...
we have never been able to end violent crime. there are millions of violent crimes in America alone every year. Now we call it terrorism is it servers our unmentionalble purposes. All we need do is not stand for it. But too many voters like it.
That wasn't CCR. It really wasn't much of anything.