Terrorism, seriously..

LikeAnOcean

All it would take is one small attack on US soil to put this country in a frenzy and write the government a blank check to do whatever..

So when the next attack happens, and 30, 100, maybe 3000 people die.. how many million more are we going to kill in retaliation? What is the 9/11 retaliation total as of now?

The big question I'm getting at, is can Obama fight terrorism more efficiently than Bush?

You have two options the way I see it. You can be a pussy, let them push you around and hope they go away, or you can be tough and keep poking at the bees nest... It's a lose, lose situation.. humanity amazes me sometimes.

Mutiny! he cried

I don't think the only 2 options are do nothing or be aggressive, we could always change our foreign policy and stop supporting, arming and protecting brutal, repressive thugs

MrBrian

I'll tell you what, if another attack happens, alll Obama needs to do is give one of those 'YES WE CAN' speeches, and most will line up right behind him.

People Wont ask anyway questions, just wave the flags chanting whatever new catch phrase he pulls out.

LikeAnOcean

MrBrian wrote:

I'll tell you what, if another attack happens, alll Obama needs to do is give one of those 'YES WE CAN' speeches, and most will line up right behind him.

People Wont ask anyway questions, just wave the flags chanting whatever new catch phrase he pulls out.

But can you blame them?.. 9/11 had me in a frenzy. I was willing to do things a rational me would have never have done.

Sucks to be human.

MrBrian

LikeAnOcean wrote:

But can you blame them?.. 9/11 had me in a frenzy. I was willing to do things a rational me would have never have done.

Sucks to be human.

ok, would you be in a frenzy again? Probably not, you are obvioulsy more educated now into matters of the world, policy and so on.

Why didnt most Americans start to educate themselves after 9/11? All they did was watch CNN,FOX and whatever to heal them and feed them info.

How can I not blame them?

You see, some Americans didnt just fall in line after 9/11. some asked 'why', some took time to understand the situation, the history.

It does not suck to be human, it probably sucks to be ignorant.

Mutiny! he cried

MrBrian wrote:

I'll tell you what, if another attack happens, alll Obama needs to do is give one of those 'YES WE CAN' speeches, and most will line up right behind him.

People Wont ask anyway questions, just wave the flags chanting whatever new catch phrase he pulls out.

Indeed

I can even see some of these neo-liberals and blind supporters/attack dogs as being like the brown shirts

RolandTD20Kdrummer

LikeAnOcean wrote:

But can you blame them?.. 9/11 had me in a frenzy. I was willing to do things a rational me would have never have done.

Sucks to be human.

Which brings the saying immediately to mind "fool me once....fool me twice.."

Human was the first time, I think everyone jumped aboard. There's no excuse for this the second time.

Mutiny! he cried

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Which brings the saying immediately to mind "fool me once....fool me twice.."

Human was the first time, I think everyone jumped aboard. There's no excuse for this the second time.

I thinks it's "fool me once shame on...shame on you, fool me twice can't get fooled again"

Maybe that's only in Tennessee

Anon

MrBrian wrote:

I'll tell you what, if another attack happens, alll Obama needs to do is give one of those 'YES WE CAN' speeches, and most will line up right behind him.

People Wont ask anyway questions, just wave the flags chanting whatever new catch phrase he pulls out.

Not this girl, and from what i have read over time here amongst a lot of the other obama supporters, and obama supporters that i know personally, i strongly disagree with what you are saying and i think you are wrong. You have nothing to base this on. Absolutely nothing. You really can be quite insulting at times.

catefrances

LikeAnOcean wrote:

All it would take is one small attack on US soil to put this country in a frenzy and write the government a blank check to do whatever..
.

whatare you talking about? the USA is already in a frenzy. has been for 7 years 2 months and 16 days.

the government of the united states would be foolish to retaliate to another attack the same way it did last time. what is needed are cool heads and a serious look at the big BIG picture. rambo tactics do not work. its time to THINK. actually in 2001 it was time to think but the opportunity was blown and i hope the pattern is not repeated.

Anon

LikeAnOcean wrote:

But can you blame them?.. 9/11 had me in a frenzy. I was willing to do things a rational me would have never have done.

Sucks to be human.

I disagree with what MrBrian is saying and yes, i absolutely would blame them. Surely we've learnt something since 9/11. War is not the answer. How about we stop sticking our nose in other countries business and change our foreign policies, so we are not constantly a target. There's a start.

catefrances

Pj_Gurl wrote:

I disagree with what MrBrian is saying and yes, i absolutely would blame them. Surely we've learnt something since 9/11. War is not the answer. How about we stop sticking our nose in other countries business and change our foreign policies, so we are not constantly a target. There's a start.

but... but... we need to democratise the world god damn it.

Sweet Emotion

catefrances wrote:

whatare you talking about? the USA is already in a frenzy. has been for 7 years 2 months and 16 days.

the government of the united states would be foolish to retaliate to another attack the same way it did last time. what is needed are cool heads and a serious look at the big BIG picture. rambo tactics do not work. its time to THINK. actually in 2001 it was time to think but the opportunity was blown and i hope the pattern is not repeated.

Bush still has 50 something days left to do a helluva lot of damage.
He will domestically. That's a given. There are a lot of people paying very close attention to everything he does, all of a sudden. Where have they been for the past nearly 8 yrs?? But if he gets the chance to 'go ballistic' internationally, one mo time, I'm not so sure he'd pass up the opportunity.
Guys like him have a limited number of card tricks, jokes and gimmicks.

Collin

LikeAnOcean wrote:

But can you blame them?.. 9/11 had me in a frenzy. I was willing to do things a rational me would have never have done.

Sucks to be human.

Of course we can blame them.

Collin

Pj_Gurl wrote:

I disagree with what MrBrian is saying and yes, i absolutely would blame them. Surely we've learnt something since 9/11. War is not the answer. How about we stop sticking our nose in other countries business and change our foreign policies, so we are not constantly a target. There's a start.

Yep, unfortunately I don't see a change in foreign policy coming.

catefrances

Sweet Emotion wrote:

Bush still has 50 something days left to do a helluva lot of damage.
He will domestically. That's a given. There are a lot of people paying very close attention to everything he does, all of a sudden. Where have they been for the past nearly 8 yrs?? But if he gets the chance to 'go ballistic' internationally, one mo time, I'm not so sure he'd pass up the opportunity.
Guys like him have a limited number of card tricks, jokes and gimmicks.

and right now hes a lame duck pardoning thanksgiving turkeys.

angelica

MrBrian wrote:

I'll tell you what, if another attack happens, alll Obama needs to do is give one of those 'YES WE CAN' speeches, and most will line up right behind him.

People Wont ask anyway questions, just wave the flags chanting whatever new catch phrase he pulls out.

This is what I see as well, for the most part. :(

polaris

america does not function without global instability ... until people realize that little wars here and there is what actually allows america to run on a day to day basis - the whole concept on this war on terror is just a smokescreen ...

american corporations that grow bigger and bigger need access to cheap resources and labour - they get that by exploiting foreign countries and free trade agreements ... if a country doesn't defer to america's economic might - expect political instability in the region ...

add to that the military industrial complex that only cares about selling arms around the world - then what you have is a foundation for a country that is based on the need for terrorism ...

unifiedscene

LikeAnOcean wrote:

All it would take is one small attack on US soil to put this country in a frenzy and write the government a blank check to do whatever..

So when the next attack happens, and 30, 100, maybe 3000 people die.. how many million more are we going to kill in retaliation? What is the 9/11 retaliation total as of now?

The big question I'm getting at, is can Obama fight terrorism more efficiently than Bush?

You have two options the way I see it. You can be a pussy, let them push you around and hope they go away, or you can be tough and keep poking at the bees nest... It's a loose loose situation.. humanity amazes me sometimes.

I think you mean "lose-lose."

My money's on Obama responding better than Bush. There are ways to respond that do not make the country a doormat but also do not worsen the situation. Had we focused on Afghanistan and protecting its people and rooting out the terrorist camps there instead of running off to Iraq for Bush's moron vendetta witch hunt, we would be much better off today. I think Obama knows the difference between a necessary conflict and foolish swaggering.

unifiedscene

Pj_Gurl wrote:

Not this girl, and from what i have read over time here amongst a lot of the other obama supporters, and obama supporters that i know personally, i strongly disagree with what you are saying and i think you are wrong. You have nothing to base this on. Absolutely nothing. You really can be quite insulting at times.

I'm with you there. The whining and condescension from the left are starting to make me appreciate those right-wing Christian nutters. At least they're honest about believing themselves to be superior, these left-wingers are so disingenuously insulting. For 8 years, we heard about how Bush was an idiot and anyone who supported him was an idiot. Now it's Obama and he's a war-mongering idiot and anyone who voted for him is a brain-dead sheep. If Nader had won, these people would switch camps and start whining about how he's arming Palestine and complaining that his supporters are sheep.

These people have no real solutions to offer, they just like to complain and feel superior and martyred by spotting all the flaws in everyone else's ideas while being very careful to never advance any of their own. Why? Because that's actually really hard and they have no ideas other than that everyone else is wrong and probably secretly a fascist sheep. And even if they had any ideas, they wouldn't put them out for public debate because it would expose the fact that their ideas also have plenty of flaws and that their opium dreams of some utopian world peace orgy are absurd. This is an imperfect world where imperfect leaders make imperfect decisions in reaction to the irrational decisions of other leaders.

If Obama starts beating a war drum, I'll be first in line to be pissed off and ask him what the hell he thinks he's doing. I gave Bush the same benefit of the doubt until he started spouting his Axis of Evil bullshit. But just because I supported Obama and think he stands to do a much better job than the last administration does not mean he gets a blank check from me, or anyone else I know that supported him. Yes, we think he's good and yes we're hopeful that he'll be great. But that does not mean we're all blind and haven't learned anything over the last 8 years. Nor does it mean we're all brain dead sheep who had no idea what his stances were. They act like all we need is for them to grace us with a little bit of their blessed intellect and we will all see the light and realize Obama is actually Satan. :rolleyes:

polaris

unifiedscene wrote:

I'm with you there. The whining and condescension from the left are starting to make me appreciate those right-wing Christian nutters. At least they're honest about believing themselves to be superior, these left-wingers are so disingenuously insulting. For 8 years, we heard about how Bush was an idiot and anyone who supported him was an idiot. Now it's Obama and he's a war-mongering idiot and anyone who voted for him is a brain-dead sheep. If Nader had won, these people would switch camps and start whining about how he's arming Palestine and complaining that his supporters are sheep.

These people have no real solutions to offer, they just like to complain and feel superior and martyred by spotting all the flaws in everyone else's ideas while being very careful to never advance any of their own. Why? Because that's actually really hard and they have no ideas other than that everyone else is wrong and probably secretly a fascist sheep. And even if they had any ideas, they wouldn't put them out for public debate because it would expose the fact that their ideas also have plenty of flaws and that their opium dreams of some utopian world peace orgy are absurd. This is an imperfect world where imperfect leaders make imperfect decisions in reaction to the irrational decisions of other leaders.

If Obama starts beating a war drum, I'll be first in line to be pissed off and ask him what the hell he thinks he's doing. I gave Bush the same benefit of the doubt until he started spouting his Axis of Evil bullshit. But just because I supported Obama and think he stands to do a much better job than the last administration does not mean he gets a blank check from me, or anyone else I know that supported him. Yes, we think he's good and yes we're hopeful that he'll be great. But that does not mean we're all blind and haven't learned anything over the last 8 years. Nor does it mean we're all brain dead sheep who had no idea what his stances were. They act like all we need is for them to grace us with a little bit of their blessed intellect and we will all see the light and realize Obama is actually Satan. :rolleyes:

this post is a kin to the right calling obama a socialist ... not a lot of substance to be quite frank ... we all have a vision of what we want the world and their country to be ... instead of calling people whiners who don't see things like you seem to ... why not try and engage them in meaningful discussion?

lalalalaaaaaaaa

LikeAnOcean wrote:

You have two options the way I see it. You can be a pussy, let them push you around and hope they go away, or you can be tough and keep poking at the bees nest... It's a loose loose situation.. humanity amazes me sometimes.

No, that's not a realistic way to look at the situation imo. You can do nothing, you can fight fire with fire, OR can look at the source of the problem and try to fix that. The real problem isn't "Al Qaeda" (whatever that is) or the attacks themselves. The real problem is WHY these attacks occur. Lots of people hate American policy in the Middle East...simple as that. It's not like if we change it, that will make everything all better again, but that is the single best thing we can do to prevent this kind of stuff from happening. If those policies are changed, we'll see a LOT less violence around the world coming from Muslim extremists. So I don't think it's a lose-lose situation at all.

unifiedscene

polaris wrote:

this post is a kin to the right calling obama a socialist ... not a lot of substance to be quite frank ... we all have a vision of what we want the world and their country to be ... instead of calling people whiners who don't see things like you seem to ... why not try and engage them in meaningful discussion?

Because I've been trying to do so for months and months. There is no meaningful discussion with the likes of them. They have no answers, no solutions, no suggestions, nothing. All they have is criticism leveled at anyone and everyone who actually puts their money where their mouth is and tries to do something about it all... which is more than these people can say. They're like armchair coaches, sitting at home watching football... bitching about how the coaches and players are screwing everything up when they don't know the first thing about actually playing in the game because they never had the talent to be anywhere near it.

Don't tell me that their snide comments about Obama supporters being mindless sheep who will arm themselves the second he asks for soldiers is somehow a "meaningful discussion."

polaris

unifiedscene wrote:

Because I've been trying to do so for months and months. There is no meaningful discussion with the likes of them. They have no answers, no solutions, no suggestions, nothing. All they have is criticism leveled at anyone and everyone who actually puts their money where their mouth is and tries to do something about it all... which is more than these people can say. They're like armchair coaches, sitting at home watching football... bitching about how the coaches and players are screwing everything up when they don't know the first thing about actually playing in the game because they never had the talent to be anywhere near it.

Don't tell me that their snide comments about Obama supporters being mindless sheep who will arm themselves the second he asks for soldiers is somehow a "meaningful discussion."

well ... in retrospect - i can see your frustration with us ... i suppose at the end of the day we are looking at things from different perspectives and understandings ... already the foundation for any kind of meaningful discussion is weak ...

if we don't see the problem to be the same - then there's no way of coming to a solution ...

unifiedscene

polaris wrote:

well ... in retrospect - i can see your frustration with us ... i suppose at the end of the day we are looking at things from different perspectives and understandings ... already the foundation for any kind of meaningful discussion is weak ...

if we don't see the problem to be the same - then there's no way of coming to a solution ...

I don't believe that's true. I have meaningful discussion with plenty of people coming from different perspectives or seeing different problems. I never have any problems with people on the right because they talk to me with respect and at least have the balls to say "sorry, but you're wrong." The problem I have with "you" (in the general sense, not you in particular) is the condescension. The attitude that the only reason I hold the views I do is because I'm ignorant and just need to be educated by you. There is no respect that the opposing views can come from a valid place... there's only one right perspective according to these people, and it's theirs. Everyone else is just too stupid to realize it. At least the neocons will admit to their narrow perspective and accept that your views might be well considered even if they're wrong. The left doesn't do this, they act open-minded and treat with narrow-minded prejudice, and your views are never valid unless you agree with them based on the same partisan blogs they read.

lalalalaaaaaaaa

unifiedscene wrote:

The left doesn't do this, they act open-minded and treat with narrow-minded prejudice, and your views are never valid unless you agree with them based on the same partisan blogs they read.

First, I think it's narrow-minded to group people in terms of left and right like that to begin with.

But aside from that, how is it prejudice for someone to criticize you based on the things you say and write? To me, that's the opposite of prejudice. I don't see how it's narrow-minded either. It's only as narrow or as vast as the subject of discussion allows.

If I see someone give an opinion on some subject that isn't based on the facts I've seen or doesn't make sense to me, why should I respect it and say "well, I think differently but I understand and respect your opinion"? I think it's fine to show disrespect towards a person's word on something if I don't feel it's respectable. It doesn't mean I don't respect the person as a human being, but I don't have to respect them because they form some opinion that they feel comes from a "valid place".

Really, the "right perspective" is the same to every person: it's the one that he/she develops until someone/something else comes along and gives them a different perspective that makes more sense to them. Then that becomes the right one. Even you think your perspective on this condescending group on "the left" is the correct one.

polaris

unifiedscene wrote:

I don't believe that's true. I have meaningful discussion with plenty of people coming from different perspectives or seeing different problems. I never have any problems with people on the right because they talk to me with respect and at least have the balls to say "sorry, but you're wrong." The problem I have with "you" (in the general sense, not you in particular) is the condescension. The attitude that the only reason I hold the views I do is because I'm ignorant and just need to be educated by you. There is no respect that the opposing views can come from a valid place... there's only one right perspective according to these people, and it's theirs. Everyone else is just too stupid to realize it. At least the neocons will admit to their narrow perspective and accept that your views might be well considered even if they're wrong. The left doesn't do this, they act open-minded and treat with narrow-minded prejudice, and your views are never valid unless you agree with them based on the same partisan blogs they read.

haha ... it's too bad you have that perception of the "left" ... i'm not gonna debate whether it's justified or not as that doesn't seem relevant in this case ... i will say that you totally missed the point of my previous post - maybe it's because you are too busy dealing with your "leftish" issues ...

bootlegger10

Saturnal wrote:

No, that's not a realistic way to look at the situation imo. You can do nothing, you can fight fire with fire, OR can look at the source of the problem and try to fix that. The real problem isn't "Al Qaeda" (whatever that is) or the attacks themselves. The real problem is WHY these attacks occur. Lots of people hate American policy in the Middle East...simple as that. It's not like if we change it, that will make everything all better again, but that is the single best thing we can do to prevent this kind of stuff from happening. If those policies are changed, we'll see a LOT less violence around the world coming from Muslim extremists. So I don't think it's a lose-lose situation at all.

It would be great to get rid of terrorism, that way Muslims can go back to what they are good at, limiting rights for women, limiting free speech, limiting religion, etc....

The good ole days, right? You act like America is the cause of everything that is wrong in the Middle East, when in fact, Islamic fundamentalism plays the largest role.

Sweet Emotion

bootlegger10 wrote:

It would be great to get rid of terrorism, that way Muslims can go back to what they are good at, limiting rights for women, limiting free speech, limiting religion, etc....

The good ole days, right? You act like America is the cause of everything that is wrong in the Middle East, when in fact, Islamic fundamentalism plays the largest role.

That's a somewhat narrow view of what Islam presents. Islamic
Fundamentalism is a very small minority. Yeah, there is that faction that is making a lot of noise. And yesterday's events in India are a very horrible exaggerated example of that. The same way that the Christian Fundies are a small but noisy subset of crazies bent on social restriction, limited and regulated education, the death of science, and rhetoric that is hateful.
Do you think that you have free speech? You don't. Do you think that there is not religious limitation here? Do you know what killed Mitt Romney's run for the presidency? It was because he is Mormon. It shouldn't matter should it? But it does.
The problems of the middle east have a long history. The hawks keep those fires burning. I can tell you that the people there would like nothing more than to sleep well at night, go to work, and have dinner with their families each evening. People want peace. I've been through out the middle east and have spent time with a lot of folks of different religions and the thing that connects them all is that they are tired of the killing, of living in fear, of the hate, the division. People are the same everywhere. It's governments that suck the life out us.

angelica

polaris wrote:

.. i suppose at the end of the day we are looking at things from different perspectives and understandings ... already the foundation for any kind of meaningful discussion is weak ...

if we don't see the problem to be the same - then there's no way of coming to a solution ...

I agree with this...

Mutiny! he cried

unifiedscene wrote:

Because I've been trying to do so for months and months. There is no meaningful discussion with the likes of them. They have no answers, no solutions, no suggestions, nothing. All they have is criticism leveled at anyone and everyone who actually puts their money where their mouth is and tries to do something about it all... which is more than these people can say. They're like armchair coaches, sitting at home watching football... bitching about how the coaches and players are screwing everything up when they don't know the first thing about actually playing in the game because they never had the talent to be anywhere near it.

Don't tell me that their snide comments about Obama supporters being mindless sheep who will arm themselves the second he asks for soldiers is somehow a "meaningful discussion."

How have you done this for months and months, it says you just joined like 2 weeks ago??