Buffet/Gates

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Comments

  • all this comes along with living here and living with the laws of this land.

    Really? Yet people lived here and had laws long before any of those things.

    Roads and security come from the minds and bodies of those who know how to build and provide them. They are not "natural resources". They are not "miracles". They are constructions, devised by genius and built by strong bodies. Neither geography nor law is required for genius or strength, and the latter often works against them.
  • I care about more people than I can count. Family, friends, employees, customers, partners, people throughout the world without whom I'd never be able to have the comforts I have today. And I reward those people for the things they do for me. I give them time, effort, money, love....whatever they value that I can provide.

    But how does "caring for one another" make this a better world? Can someone eat my care? Can someone live in my care? Can my care save someone's life? Of course not. Only my work or the work of others can feed you. Only my work or the work of others can build your house. Only my work or the work of others can save your life.

    You don't want my care. You want my money. You don't want my love. You want my labor. You want those things without providing a value to me. That isn't care -- that is guilt. You want me to be guilty. You want me to feel that I've committed a crime -- the crime of living by my values, not yours. It is only through guilt and force that you can extract what you want and the system you're advocating demonstrates that fact. You tell me to "give back" as if I've stolen something, ignoring the value I've already given to those who have helped me. And if that doesn't work you'll send your goon squads as if I've taken aggressive action at you based on nothing more than my indifference.



    The only stance that leaves good people out in the cold is the stance of the man standing in the cold or the actions of the men who push them out into it. If you can convict me of pushing one man into the cold, I'll pay your ransom. Otherwise, you can take your Original Sin back to the church where it belongs. My birth was not a crime.


    Yes, your care can, indeed, result in food and the livelihood of others. If your beloved money pays for a meal then that person does not starve, that person lives on. It's too bad the livelihood of other human beings has no 'value' to you but I couldn't disagree more.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Really? Yet people lived here and had laws long before any of those things.

    Roads and security come from the minds and bodies of those who know how to build and provide them. They are not "natural resources". They are not "miracles". They are constructions, devised by genius and built by strong bodies. Neither geography nor law is required for genius or strength, and the latter often works against them.

    And?? What does that have to do with what I said? Living here requires that the laws of this land are followed.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Yes, your care can, indeed, result in food and the livelihood of others. If your beloved money pays for a meal then that person does not starve, that person lives on.

    ????

    In your example my "care" is irrelevant. The only relevant products are the money, the food, and the labor of all parties.
    It's too bad the livelihood of other human beings has no 'value' to you but I couldn't disagree more.

    The exact opposite is what's bothering you. It's not that I don't value human beings, it's that I do. The livelihood of all human beings has a value, a value extending from the thoughts and actions of the human that sustains its life.

    It's you who ignores the value of those lives (virtue). It's you who decry the payments people receive for their virtues (profit). It's you who demand payment only in the absence of value.
  • And?? What does that have to do with what I said?

    "all this [roads, security] comes along with living here and living with the laws of this land."

    Neither this land, nor any law, can build a road. Only a mind and a body can build a road.

    I propose to motivate those minds, those bodies based on the values that extend directly from them. You propose to motivate those minds, those bodies, based on force.
    Living here requires that the laws of this land are followed.

    No, the violence of your military, police and court require the laws of this land are followed.
  • ????

    In your example my "care" is irrelevant. The only relevant products are the money, the food, and the labor of all parties.

    Yeah, because you leave out the 'care' so it has to be a law. How would this person end up without the law in the absense of your 'care'?

    The exact opposite is what's bothering you. It's not that I don't value human beings, it's that I do. The livelihood of all human beings has a value, a value extending from the thoughts and actions of the human that sustains its life.

    It's you who ignores the value of those lives (virtue). It's you who decry the payments people receive for their virtues (profit). It's you who demand payment only in the absence of value.

    Are you saying poor people have no virtue? People don't always receive profits because of virtue. I have no problem with profits as long as they don't infringe upon another's livelihood. Sometimes people have tons of virtue but don't ever see much of the profit it creates. Your only value of people is the profit they create.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Yeah, because you leave out the 'care' so it has to be a law. How would this person end up without the law in the absense of your 'care'?

    Quite well, since he wouldn't be sitting around waiting for someone's care to build him a house.
    Are you saying poor people have no virtue?

    No. Why would you think that?
    People don't always receive profits because of virtue.

    People always receive profits because of virtue, unless those "profits" are the result of theft. But that does not mean those people are not also capable of vice.
    I have no problem with profits as long as they don't infringe upon another's livelihood.

    So in the other words no one has a right to profit as long as someone, somewhere is in need?
    Sometimes people have tons of virtue but don't ever see much of the profit it creates.

    Certainly!
    Your only value of people is the profit they create.

    Not at all. That's one of the values I see in people. I value any virtue in any person I meet, regardless of their profit.
  • Indian SummerIndian Summer Posts: 2,296
    Isn't it ironic? In the end, these two capitalist pigs, perverse accumulators of wealth, enemies of the common people, will do more for poor people than every whiny liberal ever born.

    I wonder, at this point, if Ed feels kind of silly for mocking Gates.


    Who are you to judge these guys....I can personally tell you that Warren Buffet is a good person, always has been. Very humble in fact, you never know how much money he had by talking to him.
    "It's all happening"
  • decides2dreamdecides2dream Posts: 14,928
    farfromglorified..i think you should go and found your own country, with no taxes...no laws.....just let people live as they want...seems your eutopia. it's an interesting premise, and i'd sure be curious to see how such a society survived. me, even with all our flaws.....i prefer laws/taxes...simply b/c while i care and faith in humanity...i don't think i have enough to believe all would contribute to the greater good of society, and for me personally, i think it is needed. c'est la vie.
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


  • Quite well, since he wouldn't be sitting around waiting for someone's care to build him a house.

    is that a fact? what about those people with tons of virtue that don't ever see the profit?

    No. Why would you think that?

    because you said that the value of life is virtue and that people receive profit for their virtue.
    ffg wrote:
    It's you who ignores the value of those lives (virtue). It's you who decry the payments people receive for their virtues (profit). It's you who demand payment only in the absence of value.
    So in the other words no one has a right to profit as long as someone, somewhere is in need?

    Is that what I said? I said their profit shouldn't cause others misfortune.
    Not at all. That's one of the values I see in people. I value any virtue in any person I meet, regardless of their profit.

    But not enough to care?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified..i think you should go and found your own country, with no taxes...no laws.....just let people live as they want...seems your eutopia.

    Why is founding my own country necessary for this?
    it's an interesting premise, and i'd sure be curious to see how such a society survived. me, even with all our flaws.....i prefer laws/taxes...simply b/c while i care and faith in humanity...i don't think i have enough to believe all would contribute to the greater good of society, and for me personally, i think it is needed. c'est la vie.

    Don't you realize you'd be perfectly free to do all the above in such a "utopia"?
  • is that a fact? what about those people with tons of virtue that don't ever see the profit?

    They trade their virtue for what they need. If they're unable to do such a thing, they provide what they need for themselves.
    because you said that the value of life is virtue and that people receive profit for their virtue.

    And where in that do you find in that -- "poor people have no virtue"? I never said anything about virtue being a guarantee of profit. Your virtue doesn't create some kind of inherent obligation for other people to purchase it from you.
    Is that what I said? I said their profit shouldn't cause others misfortune.

    Ok...that's better. I'd say your profit cannot be built on aggression. That's effectively the same, though I'm sure we'd find some semantic differences.
    But not enough to care?

    Not at any price, no.
  • decides2dreamdecides2dream Posts: 14,928
    Why is founding my own country necessary for this?

    well i don't see how you can do it in the US since there already exists laws and taxes...unless you plan on changing all of that.

    Don't you realize you'd be perfectly free to do all the above in such a "utopia"?

    i was discussing YOUR utopia, not mine. i don't know if i have a fully formed vision of one...nor was i saying i truly know yours either....but you cannot have no taxes and no laws, and taxes and laws...all within the same society, unless it is so splintered into tiny fragments...which to me isn't much of a society then. besides the fact, as much as you say you don't want 'protections'....police, fire dept, military, whatever....that may work for you, but i don't think it works for all....so yea, i kinda like some protections. or if you want to say how, go ahead.....anyway....was just sayin' since you seem so opposed to taxes and laws....whereas i am not overall. anyway, i just have no desire to 'start over'....i'm fine right where i am, imperfect.
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


  • They trade their virtue for what they need. If they're unable to do such a thing, they provide what they need for themselves.

    How?

    And where in that do you find in that -- "poor people have no virtue"? I never said anything about virtue being a guarantee of profit. Your virtue doesn't create some kind of inherent obligation for other people to purchase it from you.

    So how can I be against valuing people's virtue if the people I want to help have it but have no profits to show for it.

    Ok...that's better. I'd say your profit cannot be built on aggression. That's effectively the same, though I'm sure we'd find some semantic differences.

    does paying taxes cause you misfortune and suffering? And I mean real suffering not just a dent in your wallet.

    Not at any price, no.

    sometimes caring involves sacrifice
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • well i don't see how you can do it in the US since there already exists laws and taxes...unless you plan on changing all of that.

    I plan on living my life for myself and forcing no one to live their life for me. That's a start.
    i was discussing YOUR utopia, not mine.

    I know. And you just answered your own question:
    but you cannot have no taxes and no laws, and taxes and laws...all within the same society, unless it is so splintered into tiny fragments...which to me isn't much of a society then. besides the fact, as much as you say you don't want 'protections'....police, fire dept, military, whatever....that may work for you, but i don't think it works for all....so yea, i kinda like some protections. or if you want to say how, go ahead.....anyway....was just sayin' since you seem so opposed to taxes and laws....whereas i am not overall. anyway, i just have no desire to 'start over'....i'm fine right where i am, imperfect.

    If you're not opposed to taxes and protections and, more so, you are for taxes and protections, then pay for them. And use them. And feel free to block those of us who are opposed to your taxes and protections from benefiting from them.

    If you're fine right where you are, awesome! Stay there. Just don't lock me in your basement.....see?
  • How?

    Are you serious? Do you think providing the basic needs for life requires some kind of masters degree?
    So how can I be against valuing people's virtue if the people I want to help have it but have no profits to show for it.

    Because your standards require none of it.
    does paying taxes cause you misfortune and suffering? And I mean real suffering not just a dent in your wallet.

    Not really. Is that the measure of virtue in your world -- a measure suffering?
    sometimes caring involves sacrifice

    Caring involves the opposite of sacrifice. Caring, and its sister, love, aren't paltry alms: they are the prices you pay for the greatest things we can receive in this life.

    Sacrifice is the language of guilt. And I stopped speaking that language a long time ago.
  • Are you serious? Do you think providing the basic needs for life requires some kind of masters degree?

    No. Why do you think there is poverty?

    Because your standards require none of it.

    Those would be your words. I believe people of virtue can also be people in need. Assistance doesn't negate virtue but that kind of thinking does do these people a great disservice and feeds into the 'lazy, worthless' mentality.

    Not really. Is that the measure of virtue in your world -- a measure suffering?

    No. But I don't measure virtue by one's ability to earn a profit. I don't think it has anything to do with money at all.
    Caring involves the opposite of sacrifice. Caring, and its sister, love, aren't paltry alms: they are the prices you pay for the greatest things we can receive in this life.

    so caring equals taking? of course they aren't always money but sometimes caring does involve sacrificing some earnings to provide for where they are lacking. Cue hungry child with no means of her next meal.

    Sacrifice is the language of guilt. And I stopped speaking that language a long time ago.[/quote]

    Sacrifice does not equal guilt. I could never see it that way.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • No. Why do you think there is poverty?

    Because we live in a world defined by sacrifice. Sacrifice to the state, to the job, to the church. Whether it's you, the politicians, the slavedrivers, or the priests....you certainly have your differences but your basic mantra is the same: living for yourself is evil, sacrificing yourself to others is enlightenment.
    Those would be your words. I believe people of virtue can also be people in need.

    All people can be in need. That's a universality.
    Assistance doesn't negate virtue but that kind of thinking does do these people a great disservice and feeds into the 'lazy, worthless' mentality.

    Certainly -- assistance doesn't negate virtue. Obligation does.
    No. But I don't measure virtue by one's ability to earn a profit. I don't think it has anything to do with money at all.

    Then what do you pay people for?
    so caring equals taking? of course they aren't always money but sometimes caring does involve sacrificing some earnings to provide for where they are lacking. Cue hungry child with no means of her next meal.

    If you care about a hungry child, you would never see providing her next meal as a sacrifice.
    Sacrifice does not equal guilt. I could never see it that way.

    But you must, if you understand the meaning of sacrifice.
  • Because we live in a world defined by sacrifice. Sacrifice to the state, to the job, to the church. Whether it's you, the politicians, the slavedrivers, or the priests....you certainly have your differences but your basic mantra is the same: living for yourself is evil, sacrificing yourself to others is enlightenment.

    I believe there can be both. Greed is closer to what I'd call evil. The love and hoarding of money.

    All people can be in need. That's a universality.

    and all people can be without basic need as well.

    Certainly -- assistance doesn't negate virtue. Obligation does.

    I disagree.

    Then what do you pay people for?

    a service. I don't get what you mean. Are you saying we don't pay those without virtue?

    If you care about a hungry child, you would never see providing her next meal as a sacrifice.

    giving is sacrifice. sacrifice is not an ugly word to me. it simply means I give where it is needed. it does not imply that i didn't want to give.

    But you must, if you understand the meaning of sacrifice.

    to give up something especially for an ideal, belief, or end
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • I believe there can be both. Greed is closer to what I'd call evil. The love and hoarding of money.

    A man cannot live by his own standards and the standards of another. It's one or the other.

    The love of money is evil, BTW. The "hoarding" of money is not, assuming it is done with a reasoned purpose.
    and all people can be without basic need as well.

    You cannot eliminate hunger...you can only feed. Men are never without basic need. It is the virtue of men that satisfies those needs.
    I disagree.

    To tell a man that he is obligated to another for no other reason than the fact that the other exists is to negate virtue.

    To tell a man that he is obligated to another for no other reason than the fact that the other man suffers is to attempt to turn suffering into a virtue, no different than the alchemists who attempted to turn iron into gold.
    a service. I don't get what you mean. Are you saying we don't pay those without virtue?

    And is the ability to provide that service not a virtue?
    giving is sacrifice. sacrifice is not an ugly word to me. it simply means I give where it is needed. it does not imply that i didn't want to give.

    Giving is definitely sacrifice, assuming one does not receive anything in return. However, giving based on care is no more of a sacrifice than eating based on hunger. To care for something is to value it. To value something implies a desire to see that something continue to exist. And to give foot to a child you care for satisfies that desire.

    It is only sacrifice if you don't care if that something continues to exist, or if you pay a price greater than the value you see in it.
    to give up something especially for an ideal, belief, or end

    Certainly. In my world, you give up nothing for an ideal, belief or end. You exchange for ideals, belifes or ends. To ask a man to sacrifice something for his ideal, for his belief, his end implies that his ideal, his belief, his end is unreachable or has no value.
  • A man cannot live by his own standards and the standards of another. It's one or the other.

    The love of money is evil, BTW. The "hoarding" of money is not, assuming it is done with a reasoned purpose.



    You cannot eliminate hunger...you can only feed. Men are never without basic need. It is the virtue of men that satisfies those needs.



    To tell a man that he is obligated to another for no other reason than the fact that the other exists is to negate virtue.

    To tell a man that he is obligated to another for no other reason than the fact that the other man suffers is to attempt to turn suffering into a virtue, no different than the alchemists who attempted to turn iron into gold.



    And is the ability to provide that service not a virtue?



    Giving is definitely sacrifice, assuming one does not receive anything in return. However, giving based on care is no more of a sacrifice than eating based on hunger. To care for something is to value it. To value something implies a desire to see that something continue to exist. And to give foot to a child you care for satisfies that desire.

    It is only sacrifice if you don't care if that something continues to exist, or if you pay a price greater than the value you see in it.



    Certainly. In my world, you give up nothing for an ideal, belief or end. You exchange for ideals, belifes or ends. To ask a man to sacrifice something for his ideal, for his belief, his end implies that his ideal, his belief, his end is unreachable or has no value.


    OK...this whole discussion is becoming too circular for my taste. Perhaps I'll feel like getting dizzy tomorrow but for now I must say good night. :)
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • OK...this whole discussion is becoming too circular for my taste. Perhaps I'll feel like getting dizzy tomorrow but for now I must say good night. :)

    It's always a pleasure. Sleep tight.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 28,899
    No. Why do you think there is poverty?

    social darwinism.
    if you are ill equipped in whatever way necessary to accumulate wealth within this capitalist system we all live under, then you will drop through the cracks never to be seen again. and no will care so long as it doesn't happen to them.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • he still standshe still stands Posts: 2,835
    social darwinism.
    if you are ill equipped in whatever way necessary to accumulate wealth within this capitalist system we all live under, then you will drop through the cracks never to be seen again. and no will care so long as it doesn't happen to them.
    Usually when I think of social darwinism I think of one of those videos that show someone doing something incredibly stupid and killing themselves (like trying to do a backflip off of a 3 story building).
    I have always thought that it was a misplaced biological theory, but it does describe the situation pretty well. I applaud Gates and Buffet for doing something extraordinary to, indirectly I guess, fix this problem. To me the most significant problem with capitalism is there is no system to transfer some of the "consumer surplus" from the incredibly wealthy to the poor. Gates and Buffet have taken the first step in fixing this problem.
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    social darwinism.
    if you are ill equipped in whatever way necessary to accumulate wealth within this capitalist system we all live under, then you will drop through the cracks never to be seen again. and no will care so long as it doesn't happen to them.

    ..............
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
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