all this comes along with living here and living with the laws of this land.
Really? Yet people lived here and had laws long before any of those things.
Roads and security come from the minds and bodies of those who know how to build and provide them. They are not "natural resources". They are not "miracles". They are constructions, devised by genius and built by strong bodies. Neither geography nor law is required for genius or strength, and the latter often works against them.
I care about more people than I can count. Family, friends, employees, customers, partners, people throughout the world without whom I'd never be able to have the comforts I have today. And I reward those people for the things they do for me. I give them time, effort, money, love....whatever they value that I can provide.
But how does "caring for one another" make this a better world? Can someone eat my care? Can someone live in my care? Can my care save someone's life? Of course not. Only my work or the work of others can feed you. Only my work or the work of others can build your house. Only my work or the work of others can save your life.
You don't want my care. You want my money. You don't want my love. You want my labor. You want those things without providing a value to me. That isn't care -- that is guilt. You want me to be guilty. You want me to feel that I've committed a crime -- the crime of living by my values, not yours. It is only through guilt and force that you can extract what you want and the system you're advocating demonstrates that fact. You tell me to "give back" as if I've stolen something, ignoring the value I've already given to those who have helped me. And if that doesn't work you'll send your goon squads as if I've taken aggressive action at you based on nothing more than my indifference.
The only stance that leaves good people out in the cold is the stance of the man standing in the cold or the actions of the men who push them out into it. If you can convict me of pushing one man into the cold, I'll pay your ransom. Otherwise, you can take your Original Sin back to the church where it belongs. My birth was not a crime.
Yes, your care can, indeed, result in food and the livelihood of others. If your beloved money pays for a meal then that person does not starve, that person lives on. It's too bad the livelihood of other human beings has no 'value' to you but I couldn't disagree more.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Really? Yet people lived here and had laws long before any of those things.
Roads and security come from the minds and bodies of those who know how to build and provide them. They are not "natural resources". They are not "miracles". They are constructions, devised by genius and built by strong bodies. Neither geography nor law is required for genius or strength, and the latter often works against them.
And?? What does that have to do with what I said? Living here requires that the laws of this land are followed.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Yes, your care can, indeed, result in food and the livelihood of others. If your beloved money pays for a meal then that person does not starve, that person lives on.
????
In your example my "care" is irrelevant. The only relevant products are the money, the food, and the labor of all parties.
It's too bad the livelihood of other human beings has no 'value' to you but I couldn't disagree more.
The exact opposite is what's bothering you. It's not that I don't value human beings, it's that I do. The livelihood of all human beings has a value, a value extending from the thoughts and actions of the human that sustains its life.
It's you who ignores the value of those lives (virtue). It's you who decry the payments people receive for their virtues (profit). It's you who demand payment only in the absence of value.
"all this [roads, security] comes along with living here and living with the laws of this land."
Neither this land, nor any law, can build a road. Only a mind and a body can build a road.
I propose to motivate those minds, those bodies based on the values that extend directly from them. You propose to motivate those minds, those bodies, based on force.
Living here requires that the laws of this land are followed.
No, the violence of your military, police and court require the laws of this land are followed.
The exact opposite is what's bothering you. It's not that I don't value human beings, it's that I do. The livelihood of all human beings has a value, a value extending from the thoughts and actions of the human that sustains its life.
It's you who ignores the value of those lives (virtue). It's you who decry the payments people receive for their virtues (profit). It's you who demand payment only in the absence of value.
Are you saying poor people have no virtue? People don't always receive profits because of virtue. I have no problem with profits as long as they don't infringe upon another's livelihood. Sometimes people have tons of virtue but don't ever see much of the profit it creates. Your only value of people is the profit they create.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Yeah, because you leave out the 'care' so it has to be a law. How would this person end up without the law in the absense of your 'care'?
Quite well, since he wouldn't be sitting around waiting for someone's care to build him a house.
Are you saying poor people have no virtue?
No. Why would you think that?
People don't always receive profits because of virtue.
People always receive profits because of virtue, unless those "profits" are the result of theft. But that does not mean those people are not also capable of vice.
I have no problem with profits as long as they don't infringe upon another's livelihood.
So in the other words no one has a right to profit as long as someone, somewhere is in need?
Sometimes people have tons of virtue but don't ever see much of the profit it creates.
Certainly!
Your only value of people is the profit they create.
Not at all. That's one of the values I see in people. I value any virtue in any person I meet, regardless of their profit.
Isn't it ironic? In the end, these two capitalist pigs, perverse accumulators of wealth, enemies of the common people, will do more for poor people than every whiny liberal ever born.
I wonder, at this point, if Ed feels kind of silly for mocking Gates.
Who are you to judge these guys....I can personally tell you that Warren Buffet is a good person, always has been. Very humble in fact, you never know how much money he had by talking to him.
farfromglorified..i think you should go and found your own country, with no taxes...no laws.....just let people live as they want...seems your eutopia. it's an interesting premise, and i'd sure be curious to see how such a society survived. me, even with all our flaws.....i prefer laws/taxes...simply b/c while i care and faith in humanity...i don't think i have enough to believe all would contribute to the greater good of society, and for me personally, i think it is needed. c'est la vie.
It's you who ignores the value of those lives (virtue). It's you who decry the payments people receive for their virtues (profit). It's you who demand payment only in the absence of value.
farfromglorified..i think you should go and found your own country, with no taxes...no laws.....just let people live as they want...seems your eutopia.
Why is founding my own country necessary for this?
it's an interesting premise, and i'd sure be curious to see how such a society survived. me, even with all our flaws.....i prefer laws/taxes...simply b/c while i care and faith in humanity...i don't think i have enough to believe all would contribute to the greater good of society, and for me personally, i think it is needed. c'est la vie.
Don't you realize you'd be perfectly free to do all the above in such a "utopia"?
is that a fact? what about those people with tons of virtue that don't ever see the profit?
They trade their virtue for what they need. If they're unable to do such a thing, they provide what they need for themselves.
because you said that the value of life is virtue and that people receive profit for their virtue.
And where in that do you find in that -- "poor people have no virtue"? I never said anything about virtue being a guarantee of profit. Your virtue doesn't create some kind of inherent obligation for other people to purchase it from you.
Is that what I said? I said their profit shouldn't cause others misfortune.
Ok...that's better. I'd say your profit cannot be built on aggression. That's effectively the same, though I'm sure we'd find some semantic differences.
Don't you realize you'd be perfectly free to do all the above in such a "utopia"?
i was discussing YOUR utopia, not mine. i don't know if i have a fully formed vision of one...nor was i saying i truly know yours either....but you cannot have no taxes and no laws, and taxes and laws...all within the same society, unless it is so splintered into tiny fragments...which to me isn't much of a society then. besides the fact, as much as you say you don't want 'protections'....police, fire dept, military, whatever....that may work for you, but i don't think it works for all....so yea, i kinda like some protections. or if you want to say how, go ahead.....anyway....was just sayin' since you seem so opposed to taxes and laws....whereas i am not overall. anyway, i just have no desire to 'start over'....i'm fine right where i am, imperfect.
And where in that do you find in that -- "poor people have no virtue"? I never said anything about virtue being a guarantee of profit. Your virtue doesn't create some kind of inherent obligation for other people to purchase it from you.
So how can I be against valuing people's virtue if the people I want to help have it but have no profits to show for it.
Ok...that's better. I'd say your profit cannot be built on aggression. That's effectively the same, though I'm sure we'd find some semantic differences.
does paying taxes cause you misfortune and suffering? And I mean real suffering not just a dent in your wallet.
well i don't see how you can do it in the US since there already exists laws and taxes...unless you plan on changing all of that.
I plan on living my life for myself and forcing no one to live their life for me. That's a start.
i was discussing YOUR utopia, not mine.
I know. And you just answered your own question:
but you cannot have no taxes and no laws, and taxes and laws...all within the same society, unless it is so splintered into tiny fragments...which to me isn't much of a society then. besides the fact, as much as you say you don't want 'protections'....police, fire dept, military, whatever....that may work for you, but i don't think it works for all....so yea, i kinda like some protections. or if you want to say how, go ahead.....anyway....was just sayin' since you seem so opposed to taxes and laws....whereas i am not overall. anyway, i just have no desire to 'start over'....i'm fine right where i am, imperfect.
If you're not opposed to taxes and protections and, more so, you are for taxes and protections, then pay for them. And use them. And feel free to block those of us who are opposed to your taxes and protections from benefiting from them.
If you're fine right where you are, awesome! Stay there. Just don't lock me in your basement.....see?
Are you serious? Do you think providing the basic needs for life requires some kind of masters degree?
So how can I be against valuing people's virtue if the people I want to help have it but have no profits to show for it.
Because your standards require none of it.
does paying taxes cause you misfortune and suffering? And I mean real suffering not just a dent in your wallet.
Not really. Is that the measure of virtue in your world -- a measure suffering?
sometimes caring involves sacrifice
Caring involves the opposite of sacrifice. Caring, and its sister, love, aren't paltry alms: they are the prices you pay for the greatest things we can receive in this life.
Sacrifice is the language of guilt. And I stopped speaking that language a long time ago.
Those would be your words. I believe people of virtue can also be people in need. Assistance doesn't negate virtue but that kind of thinking does do these people a great disservice and feeds into the 'lazy, worthless' mentality.
Caring involves the opposite of sacrifice. Caring, and its sister, love, aren't paltry alms: they are the prices you pay for the greatest things we can receive in this life.
so caring equals taking? of course they aren't always money but sometimes caring does involve sacrificing some earnings to provide for where they are lacking. Cue hungry child with no means of her next meal.
Sacrifice is the language of guilt. And I stopped speaking that language a long time ago.[/quote]
Sacrifice does not equal guilt. I could never see it that way.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Because we live in a world defined by sacrifice. Sacrifice to the state, to the job, to the church. Whether it's you, the politicians, the slavedrivers, or the priests....you certainly have your differences but your basic mantra is the same: living for yourself is evil, sacrificing yourself to others is enlightenment.
Those would be your words. I believe people of virtue can also be people in need.
All people can be in need. That's a universality.
Assistance doesn't negate virtue but that kind of thinking does do these people a great disservice and feeds into the 'lazy, worthless' mentality.
No. But I don't measure virtue by one's ability to earn a profit. I don't think it has anything to do with money at all.
Then what do you pay people for?
so caring equals taking? of course they aren't always money but sometimes caring does involve sacrificing some earnings to provide for where they are lacking. Cue hungry child with no means of her next meal.
If you care about a hungry child, you would never see providing her next meal as a sacrifice.
Sacrifice does not equal guilt. I could never see it that way.
But you must, if you understand the meaning of sacrifice.
Because we live in a world defined by sacrifice. Sacrifice to the state, to the job, to the church. Whether it's you, the politicians, the slavedrivers, or the priests....you certainly have your differences but your basic mantra is the same: living for yourself is evil, sacrificing yourself to others is enlightenment.
I believe there can be both. Greed is closer to what I'd call evil. The love and hoarding of money.
I believe there can be both. Greed is closer to what I'd call evil. The love and hoarding of money.
A man cannot live by his own standards and the standards of another. It's one or the other.
The love of money is evil, BTW. The "hoarding" of money is not, assuming it is done with a reasoned purpose.
and all people can be without basic need as well.
You cannot eliminate hunger...you can only feed. Men are never without basic need. It is the virtue of men that satisfies those needs.
I disagree.
To tell a man that he is obligated to another for no other reason than the fact that the other exists is to negate virtue.
To tell a man that he is obligated to another for no other reason than the fact that the other man suffers is to attempt to turn suffering into a virtue, no different than the alchemists who attempted to turn iron into gold.
a service. I don't get what you mean. Are you saying we don't pay those without virtue?
And is the ability to provide that service not a virtue?
giving is sacrifice. sacrifice is not an ugly word to me. it simply means I give where it is needed. it does not imply that i didn't want to give.
Giving is definitely sacrifice, assuming one does not receive anything in return. However, giving based on care is no more of a sacrifice than eating based on hunger. To care for something is to value it. To value something implies a desire to see that something continue to exist. And to give foot to a child you care for satisfies that desire.
It is only sacrifice if you don't care if that something continues to exist, or if you pay a price greater than the value you see in it.
to give up something especially for an ideal, belief, or end
Certainly. In my world, you give up nothing for an ideal, belief or end. You exchange for ideals, belifes or ends. To ask a man to sacrifice something for his ideal, for his belief, his end implies that his ideal, his belief, his end is unreachable or has no value.
A man cannot live by his own standards and the standards of another. It's one or the other.
The love of money is evil, BTW. The "hoarding" of money is not, assuming it is done with a reasoned purpose.
You cannot eliminate hunger...you can only feed. Men are never without basic need. It is the virtue of men that satisfies those needs.
To tell a man that he is obligated to another for no other reason than the fact that the other exists is to negate virtue.
To tell a man that he is obligated to another for no other reason than the fact that the other man suffers is to attempt to turn suffering into a virtue, no different than the alchemists who attempted to turn iron into gold.
And is the ability to provide that service not a virtue?
Giving is definitely sacrifice, assuming one does not receive anything in return. However, giving based on care is no more of a sacrifice than eating based on hunger. To care for something is to value it. To value something implies a desire to see that something continue to exist. And to give foot to a child you care for satisfies that desire.
It is only sacrifice if you don't care if that something continues to exist, or if you pay a price greater than the value you see in it.
Certainly. In my world, you give up nothing for an ideal, belief or end. You exchange for ideals, belifes or ends. To ask a man to sacrifice something for his ideal, for his belief, his end implies that his ideal, his belief, his end is unreachable or has no value.
OK...this whole discussion is becoming too circular for my taste. Perhaps I'll feel like getting dizzy tomorrow but for now I must say good night.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
social darwinism.
if you are ill equipped in whatever way necessary to accumulate wealth within this capitalist system we all live under, then you will drop through the cracks never to be seen again. and no will care so long as it doesn't happen to them.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
social darwinism.
if you are ill equipped in whatever way necessary to accumulate wealth within this capitalist system we all live under, then you will drop through the cracks never to be seen again. and no will care so long as it doesn't happen to them.
Usually when I think of social darwinism I think of one of those videos that show someone doing something incredibly stupid and killing themselves (like trying to do a backflip off of a 3 story building).
I have always thought that it was a misplaced biological theory, but it does describe the situation pretty well. I applaud Gates and Buffet for doing something extraordinary to, indirectly I guess, fix this problem. To me the most significant problem with capitalism is there is no system to transfer some of the "consumer surplus" from the incredibly wealthy to the poor. Gates and Buffet have taken the first step in fixing this problem.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
social darwinism.
if you are ill equipped in whatever way necessary to accumulate wealth within this capitalist system we all live under, then you will drop through the cracks never to be seen again. and no will care so long as it doesn't happen to them.
..............
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Comments
Really? Yet people lived here and had laws long before any of those things.
Roads and security come from the minds and bodies of those who know how to build and provide them. They are not "natural resources". They are not "miracles". They are constructions, devised by genius and built by strong bodies. Neither geography nor law is required for genius or strength, and the latter often works against them.
Yes, your care can, indeed, result in food and the livelihood of others. If your beloved money pays for a meal then that person does not starve, that person lives on. It's too bad the livelihood of other human beings has no 'value' to you but I couldn't disagree more.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
And?? What does that have to do with what I said? Living here requires that the laws of this land are followed.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
????
In your example my "care" is irrelevant. The only relevant products are the money, the food, and the labor of all parties.
The exact opposite is what's bothering you. It's not that I don't value human beings, it's that I do. The livelihood of all human beings has a value, a value extending from the thoughts and actions of the human that sustains its life.
It's you who ignores the value of those lives (virtue). It's you who decry the payments people receive for their virtues (profit). It's you who demand payment only in the absence of value.
"all this [roads, security] comes along with living here and living with the laws of this land."
Neither this land, nor any law, can build a road. Only a mind and a body can build a road.
I propose to motivate those minds, those bodies based on the values that extend directly from them. You propose to motivate those minds, those bodies, based on force.
No, the violence of your military, police and court require the laws of this land are followed.
Yeah, because you leave out the 'care' so it has to be a law. How would this person end up without the law in the absense of your 'care'?
Are you saying poor people have no virtue? People don't always receive profits because of virtue. I have no problem with profits as long as they don't infringe upon another's livelihood. Sometimes people have tons of virtue but don't ever see much of the profit it creates. Your only value of people is the profit they create.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Quite well, since he wouldn't be sitting around waiting for someone's care to build him a house.
No. Why would you think that?
People always receive profits because of virtue, unless those "profits" are the result of theft. But that does not mean those people are not also capable of vice.
So in the other words no one has a right to profit as long as someone, somewhere is in need?
Certainly!
Not at all. That's one of the values I see in people. I value any virtue in any person I meet, regardless of their profit.
Who are you to judge these guys....I can personally tell you that Warren Buffet is a good person, always has been. Very humble in fact, you never know how much money he had by talking to him.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
is that a fact? what about those people with tons of virtue that don't ever see the profit?
because you said that the value of life is virtue and that people receive profit for their virtue.
Is that what I said? I said their profit shouldn't cause others misfortune.
But not enough to care?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Why is founding my own country necessary for this?
Don't you realize you'd be perfectly free to do all the above in such a "utopia"?
They trade their virtue for what they need. If they're unable to do such a thing, they provide what they need for themselves.
And where in that do you find in that -- "poor people have no virtue"? I never said anything about virtue being a guarantee of profit. Your virtue doesn't create some kind of inherent obligation for other people to purchase it from you.
Ok...that's better. I'd say your profit cannot be built on aggression. That's effectively the same, though I'm sure we'd find some semantic differences.
Not at any price, no.
well i don't see how you can do it in the US since there already exists laws and taxes...unless you plan on changing all of that.
i was discussing YOUR utopia, not mine. i don't know if i have a fully formed vision of one...nor was i saying i truly know yours either....but you cannot have no taxes and no laws, and taxes and laws...all within the same society, unless it is so splintered into tiny fragments...which to me isn't much of a society then. besides the fact, as much as you say you don't want 'protections'....police, fire dept, military, whatever....that may work for you, but i don't think it works for all....so yea, i kinda like some protections. or if you want to say how, go ahead.....anyway....was just sayin' since you seem so opposed to taxes and laws....whereas i am not overall. anyway, i just have no desire to 'start over'....i'm fine right where i am, imperfect.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
How?
So how can I be against valuing people's virtue if the people I want to help have it but have no profits to show for it.
does paying taxes cause you misfortune and suffering? And I mean real suffering not just a dent in your wallet.
sometimes caring involves sacrifice
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I plan on living my life for myself and forcing no one to live their life for me. That's a start.
I know. And you just answered your own question:
If you're not opposed to taxes and protections and, more so, you are for taxes and protections, then pay for them. And use them. And feel free to block those of us who are opposed to your taxes and protections from benefiting from them.
If you're fine right where you are, awesome! Stay there. Just don't lock me in your basement.....see?
Are you serious? Do you think providing the basic needs for life requires some kind of masters degree?
Because your standards require none of it.
Not really. Is that the measure of virtue in your world -- a measure suffering?
Caring involves the opposite of sacrifice. Caring, and its sister, love, aren't paltry alms: they are the prices you pay for the greatest things we can receive in this life.
Sacrifice is the language of guilt. And I stopped speaking that language a long time ago.
No. Why do you think there is poverty?
Those would be your words. I believe people of virtue can also be people in need. Assistance doesn't negate virtue but that kind of thinking does do these people a great disservice and feeds into the 'lazy, worthless' mentality.
No. But I don't measure virtue by one's ability to earn a profit. I don't think it has anything to do with money at all.
so caring equals taking? of course they aren't always money but sometimes caring does involve sacrificing some earnings to provide for where they are lacking. Cue hungry child with no means of her next meal.
Sacrifice is the language of guilt. And I stopped speaking that language a long time ago.[/quote]
Sacrifice does not equal guilt. I could never see it that way.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Because we live in a world defined by sacrifice. Sacrifice to the state, to the job, to the church. Whether it's you, the politicians, the slavedrivers, or the priests....you certainly have your differences but your basic mantra is the same: living for yourself is evil, sacrificing yourself to others is enlightenment.
All people can be in need. That's a universality.
Certainly -- assistance doesn't negate virtue. Obligation does.
Then what do you pay people for?
If you care about a hungry child, you would never see providing her next meal as a sacrifice.
But you must, if you understand the meaning of sacrifice.
I believe there can be both. Greed is closer to what I'd call evil. The love and hoarding of money.
and all people can be without basic need as well.
I disagree.
a service. I don't get what you mean. Are you saying we don't pay those without virtue?
giving is sacrifice. sacrifice is not an ugly word to me. it simply means I give where it is needed. it does not imply that i didn't want to give.
to give up something especially for an ideal, belief, or end
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
A man cannot live by his own standards and the standards of another. It's one or the other.
The love of money is evil, BTW. The "hoarding" of money is not, assuming it is done with a reasoned purpose.
You cannot eliminate hunger...you can only feed. Men are never without basic need. It is the virtue of men that satisfies those needs.
To tell a man that he is obligated to another for no other reason than the fact that the other exists is to negate virtue.
To tell a man that he is obligated to another for no other reason than the fact that the other man suffers is to attempt to turn suffering into a virtue, no different than the alchemists who attempted to turn iron into gold.
And is the ability to provide that service not a virtue?
Giving is definitely sacrifice, assuming one does not receive anything in return. However, giving based on care is no more of a sacrifice than eating based on hunger. To care for something is to value it. To value something implies a desire to see that something continue to exist. And to give foot to a child you care for satisfies that desire.
It is only sacrifice if you don't care if that something continues to exist, or if you pay a price greater than the value you see in it.
Certainly. In my world, you give up nothing for an ideal, belief or end. You exchange for ideals, belifes or ends. To ask a man to sacrifice something for his ideal, for his belief, his end implies that his ideal, his belief, his end is unreachable or has no value.
OK...this whole discussion is becoming too circular for my taste. Perhaps I'll feel like getting dizzy tomorrow but for now I must say good night.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
It's always a pleasure. Sleep tight.
social darwinism.
if you are ill equipped in whatever way necessary to accumulate wealth within this capitalist system we all live under, then you will drop through the cracks never to be seen again. and no will care so long as it doesn't happen to them.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I have always thought that it was a misplaced biological theory, but it does describe the situation pretty well. I applaud Gates and Buffet for doing something extraordinary to, indirectly I guess, fix this problem. To me the most significant problem with capitalism is there is no system to transfer some of the "consumer surplus" from the incredibly wealthy to the poor. Gates and Buffet have taken the first step in fixing this problem.
..............
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way