Runaway spending, massive debt, government bailouts, and a weak dollar. These are the current truths facing our country. McCain will continue leading us down this dismal path to bankruptcy. The answer isn’t offshore drilling, it’s more efficient cars and improved public transport. Trim 20% off the DoD budget and create thousands of new blue collar jobs improving our crumbling infrastructure.
you asked and i provided. this certainly isn't the only issue on which they differ. but no matter how much i or anyone would post it wouldn't matter with you.
If you posted some factual material showing Obama cared about the same things I do and not the exact opposite then it would matter. I just haven't seen it yet and I figured by now it must not exist....not to mention, I've done quite a bit of extensive research on him and his policies, myself.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Three years as a US senator is three more years than Ralph Nader has spent as an elected official.
And? What does a title mean? Especially when you don't have too much to show for it.
Ralph Nader has a loooooong list of accomplishments to show for all without having power and corporate benefactors. The fact that he hasn't held office yet puts himself out there for the people year after year and actually gets htings DONE only says MORE about the man.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
this whole "vote for whoever you want" thing is getting ridiculous. this is a message board to DISCUSS why we're voting for someone. if you don't like us discussing and debating this stuff then that's fine, but you shouldn't complain about it.
you seem proud of your supporting Barack Obama. Great. Do you mind explaining it though? or maybe answering these questions?
I understandi f they're a bit intimidating. after all, EXPLAINING why you support your candidate is usually hard for Obama supporters...
THANK YOU!
Everytime the going gets tough for Obama supporters, it's always the same old copout line 'vote for whoever you want' ie...I don't have a rebuttal to your point.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Those questions are about as intimidating as a Cockapoo puppy. If you honestly believe that Obama supporters can't explain why they support him than you are even more ignorant and naive than you come across in your angry post.
Please. I've being debating this on this board for months and the same thing happens every time you ask Obama supporters how they can support sooo many of the things Obama has done or stands for....they say they don't have to explain why they support him, they tell you to vote for who ever you want, they say he's all we have and is better than McCain, etc....but they dodge the points or suddenly just don't care the issues in question. It's always ends this way and it's a copout
What do you like about the guy? Let me guess, he's charismatic and it will be nice to see a black guy get in the whitehouse. What a ringing endorsement!
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I like Obama too, but I also like my friends, doesn't mean I'd vote for them for president
They way I see it ( in my skewed reality ) is that we should vote to make the system better. So for this election this is the way I think we should vote :
If you are liberal in a majority liberal state ( as I am ) you should vote Independent to show that there is need for more than 2 major parties.
If you live in a battleground state, vote for Obama and get the Republicans out of the White house.
If you live in a majority Republican state vote for the Independent party since the Republican nominee will win anyways.
By voting like this, we can assure the Republican Candidate doesn't win, and also give more support to the Non-Major Party individuals.
I could be satisfied by a reasoned explanation. I don't like ANY of the candidates. I'm LOOKING for a reason to like SOMEONE. I'm for McCain at this point simply because, in my opinion, his ability and propensity to fuck things up even worse than they already are far less than Obama's, and because of our elitist and corporate-owned political system, those are the only viable choices now.
Even though I followed along like a junky, I really didn't start talking much about this election until a few weeks ago, and quite a bit has been on this board. I keep chatting with more and more very firm and very proud Obama supporters. It's intriguing to me because I can't really see anything to be firm and proud about with ANY of the candidates. So, I want to know why. Then I get a vague, general, but very confident and positive response - "I really feel like he's the guy to make the big and creative changes we need right now." Something like that. I'll probe further - I'm more of a detail guy, an issue guy. Big picture-vision is certainly important, but to me that big picture is made up of a lot of little ones that you only see when you get up close. Usually at that point the person gets pissed off at me and says something like "You vote for who want", or "Nothing I say will matter to you", or some other conversation ender. There have been some exceptions - in most cases, people that are referred to as "single-issue voters", things like abortion, gay rights, capital punishment, immigration policy, education,etc. Obama has fairly well-articulated positions on some of these issues and in some cases has been very consistent on them. Cool. That makes sense to me. I have different issue priorities and therein lies our difference, and that's why we all get to vote.
I was a college debater and coached for a few years afterwards years ago, but I still get off on talking to people and crystallizing our differences on issues I think are important. I feel like it helps me better articulate my own opinions and know why I have them, and I think that's pretty important.
It's been a pretty unusual experience talking with folks about Obama. It's really similar to talking about religious differences. There comes that point where it is impossible to talk anymore, because a debate is a rational, logic-based excercise and religion is not. It is faith-based.
Too me, that makes Barack Obama a very scary individual. While there are some of you out there that seem to be making an informed and critical choice, it seems like a very high percentage are not. I say that simply because of my experiences. If you are a well-informed, issue-oriented Obama supporter, then don't get pissed at me - I'm not talking to you. You've obviously dug into this election, not relied solely on mainstream media, set your priorities and made a rational decision. No matter who that choice may be.
But if you can't at least provide one important issue in which you know what your candidate's position REALLY is, and that you agree with, then you are letting everyone around you down and abusing your right to vote. This isn't deciding who you think "The Bachelorette" should fuck, or which American Idol contestant should win.
"The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all. "
John F Kennedy
Hello,
I don't think i've replied to any of your posts before, and i am definitely no match for a college debater , but these are my thoughts anyway.
I found your post a little confusing. In the beginning you are saying that you don't like any of the candidates but you are going with mccain because ' his ability and propensity to fuck things up even worse than they already are far less than Obama's, and because of our elitist and corporate-owned political system, those are the only viable choices now.'.
Then you talked about how you feel frustrated with the obama supporters that you have been talking to, because you felt that they couldn't give you an informed reason as to why they prefer him. I can understand that would be frustrating.
Please don't take this the wrong way, because i just want you to take a second to look at it from the other side too. I could easily say that you have not given an informed reason as to why you prefer mccain. I'm sorry, but 'the ability to fuck things up less than obama' is not a reason . Hell, if an obama supporter had said that, this place would go nuts.
Ok, so now i'll answer your question the best i can. The biggest issue for me is the War. I want our troops the hell out of there, and i believe it will happen quicker under Obama in my opinion.
In January. 2007, when Obama introduced a bill called the Iraq War De-escalation Act of 2007, it was the first time anyone had proposed setting a deadline for getting the troops the hell out of Iraq. Under Obamas legislation, all combat brigades would've been out of iraq by the end of march, 2008.
Obama believes we must be as careful getting out of Iraq as we were careless getting in. He has said that, immediately upon taking office, he will give his Secretary of Defense and military commanders a new mission in Iraq: ending the war. The removal of our troops will be responsible and phased, directed by military commanders on the ground and done in consultation with the Iraqi government. Military experts believe we can safely redeploy combat brigades from Iraq at a pace of 1 to 2 brigades a month that would remove them in 16 months. That would be the summer of 2010 – more than 7 years after the war began.
The way i see it, Obama's position is that the troops should be withdrawn independent of conditions on the ground. If 3000 civilians are being slaughtered each month as a result of sectarian conflict engineered by al Qaeda, withdraw the troops. If al Qaeda has been largely crushed and civilian casualties have dropped to much lower levels, withdraw the troops. Fine.
A different point of view can be found on John McCain's web site:
"I do not want to keep our troops in Iraq a minute longer than necessary to secure our interests there. Our goal is an Iraq that can stand on its own as a democratic ally and a responsible force for peace in its neighborhood. Our goal is an Iraq that no longer needs American troops. And I believe we can achieve that goal, perhaps sooner than many imagine. But I do not believe that anyone should make promises as a candidate for President that they cannot keep if elected. To promise a withdrawal of our forces from Iraq, regardless of the calamitous consequences to the Iraqi people, our most vital interests, and the future of the Middle East, is the height of irresponsibility. It is a failure of leadership."
In other words, McCain wants our combat troops out as well, but the withdrawal is conditional on the security situation in Iraq. If the security situation worsens, our troops stay. That's the key difference between his position and Obama's position. Unless I am missing something, there is no disputing this.
Obama has proven that he wants our troops withdrawn, no matter what the facts on the ground might be. He has a bill to prove it (the one called the "Iraq War De-escalation Act of 2007").
Please. I've being debating this on this board for months and the same thing happens every time you ask Obama supporters how they can support sooo many of the things Obama has done or stands for....they say they don't have to explain why they support him, they tell you to vote for who ever you want, they say he's all we have and is better than McCain, etc....but they dodge the points or suddenly just don't care the issues in question. It's always ends this way and it's a copout
What do you like about the guy? Let me guess, he's charismatic and it will be nice to see a black guy get in the whitehouse. What a ringing endorsement!
I never dodged a point in my life. Make them one at a time, and I will be more than happy to respond. I will make you breakfast too
Tell me, what is the worst policy of Obama in your opinion?
This is a no brainer. Neither candidate is worthy of being in the oval office. Both candidates propose policies that are unconstitutional. Both candidates propose policies that run counter to the benefit of the many to satisfy the few. When as a country are we going to stop voting for the lesser of two evils. We sit and bitch about how horrible our leaders are and how they are failing us. Yet come the next election we repeat our past mistakes by electing the lesser of two evils. We deserve the shitty leaders we get because as a whole we are either to lazy, stupid or apathetic to do what is necessary, please notice that i said as a whole. I'm not pointing at anyone here. So when either McCain or Obama get elected and continue to wipe their ass with the constitution and continue to run this country into the ground please keep your gripping to a minimum because you are the one's that put them there.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Those questions are about as intimidating as a Cockapoo puppy. If you honestly believe that Obama supporters can't explain why they support him than you are even more ignorant and naive than you come across in your angry post.
thanks for that, but your ignoring my questions only proves my point ever more.
I cant believe no one wants to explain anything to you as irate as you get on here. There is nothing any Obama supporter could say that would satisfy you anyway so why do you ACT like you give a shit about their decisions? Save all the "its a message board to discuss things" bullshit, you're not fooling anyone.
prove me wrong then. go ahead and answer the questions. I've never called an Obama supporter "sheep" or anything like that, so save those ridiculous accusations for someone else. answer those questions for me, and I'll debate you. If you'd rather ignore them like most people do, that's fine.
I agree with your statement. However, i dont believe he is open to any thought other than those who support Obama are just wrong which is why i was addressing Outlaw specifically with that statement.
you don't believe I am open to any thought? that's a completely wrong and baseless assumption.
I just read that outlaw is actually Byrnzie so it all makes sense anyway.
prove me wrong then. go ahead and answer the questions. I've never called an Obama supporter "sheep" or anything like that, so save those ridiculous accusations for someone else. answer those questions for me, and I'll debate you. If you'd rather ignore them like most people do, that's fine.
If I was an Obama supporter I would.
Isnt there a door waiting to hit you in the ass ??
Ill probably be voting 3rd party, but I do think Obama has some things going for him. I think his biggest asset is simply his ability to connect with people. I think he would help our standing in the world and the perception of the US greatly, which IMO is pretty significant. Im not much for most of his policies either, but I do think he would bring some good to the table.
This is a no brainer. Neither candidate is worthy of being in the oval office. Both candidates propose policies that are unconstitutional. Both candidates propose policies that run counter to the benefit of the many to satisfy the few. When as a country are we going to stop voting for the lesser of two evils. We sit and bitch about how horrible our leaders are and how they are failing us. Yet come the next election we repeat our past mistakes by electing the lesser of two evils. We deserve the shitty leaders we get because as a whole we are either to lazy, stupid or apathetic to do what is necessary, please notice that i said as a whole. I'm not pointing at anyone here. So when either McCain or Obama get elected and continue to wipe their ass with the constitution and continue to run this country into the ground please keep your gripping to a minimum because you are the one's that put them there.
Thanks for having an intelligent discussion. This is a deeper discussion of ANY issue than I've had with anyone on this board so far, in terms of Obama. I've made a few remarks here and there.
I found your post a little confusing. In the beginning you are saying that you don't like any of the candidates but you are going with mccain because ' his ability and propensity to fuck things up even worse than they already are far less than Obama's, and because of our elitist and corporate-owned political system, those are the only viable choices now.'
Then you talked about how you feel frustrated with the obama supporters that you have been talking to, because you felt that they couldn't give you an informed reason as to why they prefer him. I can understand that would be frustrating.
Please don't take this the wrong way, because i just want you to take a second to look at it from the other side too. I could easily say that you have not given an informed reason as to why you prefer mccain. I'm sorry, but 'the ability to fuck things up less than obama' is not a reason . Hell, if an obama supporter had said that, this place would go nuts.
I base that very general statement around the issue of experience. McCain has been a legislator for 20 years, which certainly gives you a little more time to figure out what you need to do to get something done in Congress. During that time period he chaired three committees, some for extensive periods of time, thereby understanding at a greater level what it means to produce "bodies of legislation" that collectively more you closer to what you want to accomplish at a issue level. Another big issue is our military overall, and Iraq specifically. McCain is a military guy. I don't make too much of the whole POW situation, but he was a squad leader and then Military Liaison to Congress. He is much more qualified to make decisions on military issues and has a much greater understanding of how his decisions will be PERCEIVED by the military. I think it's important that the military have confidence in the President's decision-making. He has a 20 year voting record, that has often differed from the Republican Party, that shows a pretty cautious and intelligent grasp of these kind of issues. I have three years of largely not voting on controversial issues for Obama, along with a very impressive academic and volunteer group career, and a state senate period that seemed geared towards minority issues.
Ok, so now i'll answer your question the best i can. The biggest issue for me is the War. I want our troops the hell out of there, and i believe it will happen quicker under Obama in my opinion.
And that seems to be the impression of a lot of Obama supporters. I don't see much difference at all in their positions. You make distinctions below, and I'll try and explain why I perceive them differently. But overall, I don't think there are too many members of Congress that aren't anxious to get the troops out of Iraq. I think both want them home.
In January. 2007, when Obama introduced a bill called the Iraq War De-escalation Act of 2007, it was the first time anyone had proposed setting a deadline for getting the troops the hell out of Iraq. Under Obamas legislation, all combat brigades would've been out of iraq by the end of march, 2008.
He did, and certainly gets credit for that. But very quickly later realized that removing that many troops as entrenched in so many different areas of Iraq - overall security, public services like power and water, police, etc. takes a little more time than that, unless you just want to say "fuck what we've done here" and let whoever has guns fight it out. I've already posted up the video of Obama in October 2007 saying that "in 16 months the only military personnel that will be left behind are the ones necessary for security and to perform anti-terrorism operations. Guess what? That's all that are there NOW. He has guaranteed nothing in terms of troop withdrawal. He just keeps saying "16 months" over and over, so people think that. At the end of 16 months in office, Obama could've removed 100 troops (even zero) and won't have lied, as long as they are "necessary for security or anti-terrorism, but not to deter Iran". McCain says as soon a "conditions on the ground" enable us to get out without creating instability, we'll leave. The troops there now aren't there to deter Iran. That's the same position. By the way, listen to Obama's position on Iran and tell me if you think it's consistent with that statement.
Obama believes we must be as careful getting out of Iraq as we were careless getting in. He has said that, immediately upon taking office, he will give his Secretary of Defense and military commanders a new mission in Iraq: ending the war. The removal of our troops will be responsible and phased, directed by military commanders on the ground and done in consultation with the Iraqi government. Military experts believe we can safely redeploy combat brigades from Iraq at a pace of 1 to 2 brigades a month that would remove them in 16 months. That would be the summer of 2010 – more than 7 years after the war began.
You've cut & pasted that from the Obama page, and the thing that is amazing is I don't know who that expert is, he doesn't tell us. A google search will show you that the vast majority of military experts completely disagree and feel the timetable is naive. Regardless both candidates agree that troops will be there as long as is necessary to provide stability
The way i see it, Obama's position is that the troops should be withdrawn independent of conditions on the ground.
That is NOT Obama's position. A lot of folks seem to believe that, because he's managed to rhetorically position himself as the guy that brings them home, but that is NOT TRUE. Troops will remain as long as are necessary for security. Search video footage of when Obama really articulates his position. The only difference is that he optimistically says that can happen in 16 months based on an unknown-to-me military expert.
A different point of view can be found on John McCain's web site:
"I do not want to keep our troops in Iraq a minute longer than necessary to secure our interests there. Our goal is an Iraq that can stand on its own as a democratic ally and a responsible force for peace in its neighborhood. Our goal is an Iraq that no longer needs American troops. And I believe we can achieve that goal, perhaps sooner than many imagine. But I do not believe that anyone should make promises as a candidate for President that they cannot keep if elected. To promise a withdrawal of our forces from Iraq, regardless of the calamitous consequences to the Iraqi people, our most vital interests, and the future of the Middle East, is the height of irresponsibility. It is a failure of leadership."
They sound the same. The only difference is McCain thinks that the idea of Iraq being stable enough in 16 months for us to leave is a lie, and that lying about it for political gain is irresponsible. He bases that on a WHOLE LOT of visits to Iraq, along with his military background, 20 years of being involved in foreign policy decisions at the Congressional level, and multiple interviews with Petraeus.
In other words, McCain wants our combat troops out as well, but the withdrawal is conditional on the security situation in Iraq. If the security situation worsens, our troops stay. That's the key difference between his position and Obama's position. Unless I am missing something, there is no disputing this.
Obama has proven that he wants our troops withdrawn, no matter what the facts on the ground might be. He has a bill to prove it (the one called the "Iraq War De-escalation Act of 2007")..
I think it very clearly articulates both of their positions - Obama inserts the artificial date of 16 months that will only happen if conditions are secure, and then we still may leave some behind to fight terrorists, in the mean time, he sends 7000 more to Afghanistan. To me the Iraq issue is a wash. They both have the same goal. If some unforeseen issue takes place in that region that complicates or changes the situation drastically, I am much more comfortable with McCain and the cabinet he'll likely appoint in handling it.
The thing to me that is the most disturbing is that the majority of Obama supporters that I talk to support him for the same reason you do. They have a completely inaccurate understanding of what his position really is on Iraq, and it's inaccurate INTENTIONALLY. He has intentionally used flaming rhetoric about getting the troops out to warp people's impression of what he actually will do.
Thanks for having an intelligent discussion. This is a deeper discussion of ANY issue than I've had with anyone on this board so far, in terms of Obama. I've made a few remarks here and there.
To me the Iraq issue is a wash. They both have the same goal. If some unforeseen issue takes place in that region that complicates or changes the situation drastically, I am much more comfortable with McCain and the cabinet he'll likely appoint in handling it.
The thing to me that is the most disturbing is that the majority of Obama supporters that I talk to support him for the same reason you do. They have a completely inaccurate understanding of what his position really is on Iraq, and it's inaccurate INTENTIONALLY. He has intentionally used flaming rhetoric about getting the troops out to warp people's impression of what he actually will do.
Thanks for the reply. We've both given reasons as to why we prefer who we do, and even though i disagree that Obama and McCain are the same, i respect your opinions. I know that you are not guilty of this yourself, but i hope it gives you some comfort to know that not all obama supporters just like him because 'they can'. There's a lot a stake for me, i have not had children yet. I want something better than this to bring them into. I don't have 'blind faith' that Obama is going to solve all our problems, i am not unrealistic as to what he can and can't do, but i do have hope that with the right people around him, he is the best candidate.
Thanks for the reply. We've both given reasons as to why we prefer who we do, and even though i disagree that Obama and McCain are the same, i respect your opinions. I know that you are not guilty of this yourself, but i hope it gives you some comfort to know that not all obama supporters just like him because 'they can'. There's a lot a stake for me, i have not had children yet. I want something better than this to bring them into. I don't have 'blind faith' that Obama is going to solve all our problems, i am not unrealistic as to what he can and can't do, but i do have hope that with the right people around him, he is the best candidate.
"You've thrown the worst fear, that could ever be hurled.
The fear to bring children, into this world."
A sad truth.
Bob Dylan, such a wise man
Oh, where have you been, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, where have you been, my darling young one?
I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains,
I've walked and I've crawled on six crooked highways,
I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests,
I've been out in front of a dozen dead oceans,
I've been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.
Oh, what did you see, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, what did you see, my darling young one?
I saw a newborn baby with wild wolves all around it
I saw a highway of diamonds with nobody on it,
I saw a black branch with blood that kept drippin',
I saw a room full of men with their hammers a-bleedin',
I saw a white ladder all covered with water,
I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken,
I saw guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.
And what did you hear, my blue-eyed son?
And what did you hear, my darling young one?
I heard the sound of a thunder, it roared out a warnin',
Heard the roar of a wave that could drown the whole world,
Heard one hundred drummers whose hands were a-blazin',
Heard ten thousand whisperin' and nobody listenin',
Heard one person starve, I heard many people laughin',
Heard the song of a poet who died in the gutter,
Heard the sound of a clown who cried in the alley,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.
Oh, who did you meet, my blue-eyed son?
Who did you meet, my darling young one?
I met a young child beside a dead pony,
I met a white man who walked a black dog,
I met a young woman whose body was burning,
I met a young girl, she gave me a rainbow,
I met one man who was wounded in love,
I met another man who was wounded with hatred,
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.
Oh, what'll you do now, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, what'll you do now, my darling young one?
I'm a-goin' back out 'fore the rain starts a-fallin',
I'll walk to the depths of the deepest black forest,
Where the people are many and their hands are all empty,
Where the pellets of poison are flooding their waters,
Where the home in the valley meets the damp dirty prison,
Where the executioner's face is always well hidden,
Where hunger is ugly, where souls are forgotten,
Where black is the color, where none is the number,
And I'll tell it and think it and speak it and breathe it,
And reflect it from the mountain so all souls can see it,
Then I'll stand on the ocean until I start sinkin',
But I'll know my song well before I start singin',
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.
Oh, where have you been, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, where have you been, my darling young one?
I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains,
I've walked and I've crawled on six crooked highways,
I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests,
I've been out in front of a dozen dead oceans,
I've been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.
Oh, what did you see, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, what did you see, my darling young one?
I saw a newborn baby with wild wolves all around it
I saw a highway of diamonds with nobody on it,
I saw a black branch with blood that kept drippin',
I saw a room full of men with their hammers a-bleedin',
I saw a white ladder all covered with water,
I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken,
I saw guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.
And what did you hear, my blue-eyed son?
And what did you hear, my darling young one?
I heard the sound of a thunder, it roared out a warnin',
Heard the roar of a wave that could drown the whole world,
Heard one hundred drummers whose hands were a-blazin',
Heard ten thousand whisperin' and nobody listenin',
Heard one person starve, I heard many people laughin',
Heard the song of a poet who died in the gutter,
Heard the sound of a clown who cried in the alley,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.
Oh, who did you meet, my blue-eyed son?
Who did you meet, my darling young one?
I met a young child beside a dead pony,
I met a white man who walked a black dog,
I met a young woman whose body was burning,
I met a young girl, she gave me a rainbow,
I met one man who was wounded in love,
I met another man who was wounded with hatred,
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.
Oh, what'll you do now, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, what'll you do now, my darling young one?
I'm a-goin' back out 'fore the rain starts a-fallin',
I'll walk to the depths of the deepest black forest,
Where the people are many and their hands are all empty,
Where the pellets of poison are flooding their waters,
Where the home in the valley meets the damp dirty prison,
Where the executioner's face is always well hidden,
Where hunger is ugly, where souls are forgotten,
Where black is the color, where none is the number,
And I'll tell it and think it and speak it and breathe it,
And reflect it from the mountain so all souls can see it,
Then I'll stand on the ocean until I start sinkin',
But I'll know my song well before I start singin',
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.
I love Hard Rain from The Gaslight may be the best version ever.
Goosebumps galore.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Comments
If you posted some factual material showing Obama cared about the same things I do and not the exact opposite then it would matter. I just haven't seen it yet and I figured by now it must not exist....not to mention, I've done quite a bit of extensive research on him and his policies, myself.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
And? What does a title mean? Especially when you don't have too much to show for it.
Ralph Nader has a loooooong list of accomplishments to show for all without having power and corporate benefactors. The fact that he hasn't held office yet puts himself out there for the people year after year and actually gets htings DONE only says MORE about the man.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
THANK YOU!
Everytime the going gets tough for Obama supporters, it's always the same old copout line 'vote for whoever you want' ie...I don't have a rebuttal to your point.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Please. I've being debating this on this board for months and the same thing happens every time you ask Obama supporters how they can support sooo many of the things Obama has done or stands for....they say they don't have to explain why they support him, they tell you to vote for who ever you want, they say he's all we have and is better than McCain, etc....but they dodge the points or suddenly just don't care the issues in question. It's always ends this way and it's a copout
What do you like about the guy? Let me guess, he's charismatic and it will be nice to see a black guy get in the whitehouse. What a ringing endorsement!
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
They way I see it ( in my skewed reality ) is that we should vote to make the system better. So for this election this is the way I think we should vote :
If you are liberal in a majority liberal state ( as I am ) you should vote Independent to show that there is need for more than 2 major parties.
If you live in a battleground state, vote for Obama and get the Republicans out of the White house.
If you live in a majority Republican state vote for the Independent party since the Republican nominee will win anyways.
By voting like this, we can assure the Republican Candidate doesn't win, and also give more support to the Non-Major Party individuals.
I don't think i've replied to any of your posts before, and i am definitely no match for a college debater
I found your post a little confusing. In the beginning you are saying that you don't like any of the candidates but you are going with mccain because ' his ability and propensity to fuck things up even worse than they already are far less than Obama's, and because of our elitist and corporate-owned political system, those are the only viable choices now.'.
Then you talked about how you feel frustrated with the obama supporters that you have been talking to, because you felt that they couldn't give you an informed reason as to why they prefer him. I can understand that would be frustrating.
Please don't take this the wrong way, because i just want you to take a second to look at it from the other side too. I could easily say that you have not given an informed reason as to why you prefer mccain. I'm sorry, but 'the ability to fuck things up less than obama' is not a reason
Ok, so now i'll answer your question the best i can. The biggest issue for me is the War. I want our troops the hell out of there, and i believe it will happen quicker under Obama in my opinion.
In January. 2007, when Obama introduced a bill called the Iraq War De-escalation Act of 2007, it was the first time anyone had proposed setting a deadline for getting the troops the hell out of Iraq. Under Obamas legislation, all combat brigades would've been out of iraq by the end of march, 2008.
Obama believes we must be as careful getting out of Iraq as we were careless getting in. He has said that, immediately upon taking office, he will give his Secretary of Defense and military commanders a new mission in Iraq: ending the war. The removal of our troops will be responsible and phased, directed by military commanders on the ground and done in consultation with the Iraqi government. Military experts believe we can safely redeploy combat brigades from Iraq at a pace of 1 to 2 brigades a month that would remove them in 16 months. That would be the summer of 2010 – more than 7 years after the war began.
The way i see it, Obama's position is that the troops should be withdrawn independent of conditions on the ground. If 3000 civilians are being slaughtered each month as a result of sectarian conflict engineered by al Qaeda, withdraw the troops. If al Qaeda has been largely crushed and civilian casualties have dropped to much lower levels, withdraw the troops. Fine.
A different point of view can be found on John McCain's web site:
"I do not want to keep our troops in Iraq a minute longer than necessary to secure our interests there. Our goal is an Iraq that can stand on its own as a democratic ally and a responsible force for peace in its neighborhood. Our goal is an Iraq that no longer needs American troops. And I believe we can achieve that goal, perhaps sooner than many imagine. But I do not believe that anyone should make promises as a candidate for President that they cannot keep if elected. To promise a withdrawal of our forces from Iraq, regardless of the calamitous consequences to the Iraqi people, our most vital interests, and the future of the Middle East, is the height of irresponsibility. It is a failure of leadership."
In other words, McCain wants our combat troops out as well, but the withdrawal is conditional on the security situation in Iraq. If the security situation worsens, our troops stay. That's the key difference between his position and Obama's position. Unless I am missing something, there is no disputing this.
Obama has proven that he wants our troops withdrawn, no matter what the facts on the ground might be. He has a bill to prove it (the one called the "Iraq War De-escalation Act of 2007").
I never dodged a point in my life. Make them one at a time, and I will be more than happy to respond. I will make you breakfast too
Tell me, what is the worst policy of Obama in your opinion?
haha! actually that makes no sense, whatsoever...
If I was an Obama supporter I would.
Isnt there a door waiting to hit you in the ass ??
--->http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5719798&postcount=1
http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5719798&postcount=1
Bye Bye
mammasan for president!!!
well said as always
I base that very general statement around the issue of experience. McCain has been a legislator for 20 years, which certainly gives you a little more time to figure out what you need to do to get something done in Congress. During that time period he chaired three committees, some for extensive periods of time, thereby understanding at a greater level what it means to produce "bodies of legislation" that collectively more you closer to what you want to accomplish at a issue level. Another big issue is our military overall, and Iraq specifically. McCain is a military guy. I don't make too much of the whole POW situation, but he was a squad leader and then Military Liaison to Congress. He is much more qualified to make decisions on military issues and has a much greater understanding of how his decisions will be PERCEIVED by the military. I think it's important that the military have confidence in the President's decision-making. He has a 20 year voting record, that has often differed from the Republican Party, that shows a pretty cautious and intelligent grasp of these kind of issues. I have three years of largely not voting on controversial issues for Obama, along with a very impressive academic and volunteer group career, and a state senate period that seemed geared towards minority issues.
And that seems to be the impression of a lot of Obama supporters. I don't see much difference at all in their positions. You make distinctions below, and I'll try and explain why I perceive them differently. But overall, I don't think there are too many members of Congress that aren't anxious to get the troops out of Iraq. I think both want them home.
He did, and certainly gets credit for that. But very quickly later realized that removing that many troops as entrenched in so many different areas of Iraq - overall security, public services like power and water, police, etc. takes a little more time than that, unless you just want to say "fuck what we've done here" and let whoever has guns fight it out. I've already posted up the video of Obama in October 2007 saying that "in 16 months the only military personnel that will be left behind are the ones necessary for security and to perform anti-terrorism operations. Guess what? That's all that are there NOW. He has guaranteed nothing in terms of troop withdrawal. He just keeps saying "16 months" over and over, so people think that. At the end of 16 months in office, Obama could've removed 100 troops (even zero) and won't have lied, as long as they are "necessary for security or anti-terrorism, but not to deter Iran". McCain says as soon a "conditions on the ground" enable us to get out without creating instability, we'll leave. The troops there now aren't there to deter Iran. That's the same position. By the way, listen to Obama's position on Iran and tell me if you think it's consistent with that statement.
You've cut & pasted that from the Obama page, and the thing that is amazing is I don't know who that expert is, he doesn't tell us. A google search will show you that the vast majority of military experts completely disagree and feel the timetable is naive. Regardless both candidates agree that troops will be there as long as is necessary to provide stability
That is NOT Obama's position. A lot of folks seem to believe that, because he's managed to rhetorically position himself as the guy that brings them home, but that is NOT TRUE. Troops will remain as long as are necessary for security. Search video footage of when Obama really articulates his position. The only difference is that he optimistically says that can happen in 16 months based on an unknown-to-me military expert.
They sound the same. The only difference is McCain thinks that the idea of Iraq being stable enough in 16 months for us to leave is a lie, and that lying about it for political gain is irresponsible. He bases that on a WHOLE LOT of visits to Iraq, along with his military background, 20 years of being involved in foreign policy decisions at the Congressional level, and multiple interviews with Petraeus.
I think it very clearly articulates both of their positions - Obama inserts the artificial date of 16 months that will only happen if conditions are secure, and then we still may leave some behind to fight terrorists, in the mean time, he sends 7000 more to Afghanistan. To me the Iraq issue is a wash. They both have the same goal. If some unforeseen issue takes place in that region that complicates or changes the situation drastically, I am much more comfortable with McCain and the cabinet he'll likely appoint in handling it.
The thing to me that is the most disturbing is that the majority of Obama supporters that I talk to support him for the same reason you do. They have a completely inaccurate understanding of what his position really is on Iraq, and it's inaccurate INTENTIONALLY. He has intentionally used flaming rhetoric about getting the troops out to warp people's impression of what he actually will do.
The fear to bring children, into this world."
A sad truth.
His posse. And that is it for me.
Bob Dylan, such a wise man
Oh, where have you been, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, where have you been, my darling young one?
I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains,
I've walked and I've crawled on six crooked highways,
I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests,
I've been out in front of a dozen dead oceans,
I've been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.
Oh, what did you see, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, what did you see, my darling young one?
I saw a newborn baby with wild wolves all around it
I saw a highway of diamonds with nobody on it,
I saw a black branch with blood that kept drippin',
I saw a room full of men with their hammers a-bleedin',
I saw a white ladder all covered with water,
I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken,
I saw guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.
And what did you hear, my blue-eyed son?
And what did you hear, my darling young one?
I heard the sound of a thunder, it roared out a warnin',
Heard the roar of a wave that could drown the whole world,
Heard one hundred drummers whose hands were a-blazin',
Heard ten thousand whisperin' and nobody listenin',
Heard one person starve, I heard many people laughin',
Heard the song of a poet who died in the gutter,
Heard the sound of a clown who cried in the alley,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.
Oh, who did you meet, my blue-eyed son?
Who did you meet, my darling young one?
I met a young child beside a dead pony,
I met a white man who walked a black dog,
I met a young woman whose body was burning,
I met a young girl, she gave me a rainbow,
I met one man who was wounded in love,
I met another man who was wounded with hatred,
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.
Oh, what'll you do now, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, what'll you do now, my darling young one?
I'm a-goin' back out 'fore the rain starts a-fallin',
I'll walk to the depths of the deepest black forest,
Where the people are many and their hands are all empty,
Where the pellets of poison are flooding their waters,
Where the home in the valley meets the damp dirty prison,
Where the executioner's face is always well hidden,
Where hunger is ugly, where souls are forgotten,
Where black is the color, where none is the number,
And I'll tell it and think it and speak it and breathe it,
And reflect it from the mountain so all souls can see it,
Then I'll stand on the ocean until I start sinkin',
But I'll know my song well before I start singin',
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.
I love Hard Rain
from The Gaslight may be the best version ever.
Goosebumps galore.
If I opened it now would you not understand?