74 Dead In Baghdad
Abuskedti
Posts: 1,917
Bombs were not ripping through Bagdad daily before we decided the world would be better off if we invaded.
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Blame the bombers. They don't have to do this.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
This from mr take responsibility
Take the police and military away from Omaha Nebraska and see what happens.
We need to give Iraq back - and allow them to rebuild a civilization - they need to rebuild a civilization because we destroyed it. The least we can do is allow it..
And stuff your arrogance for a minute - It makes perfect sence to you that they should just conform to the very sensible US scheme...
But they don'T!!! They have their own dreams and wishes...
Indeed.. If a bomb blew up in Cleveland killing 74 and wounding 170.. February 12th would be remembered forever...
just another day for the liberated Iraq
If you take the police and military away from Omaha Nebraska or most any other town or city in the US - it certainly wouldn't look like Baghdad.
That is just a silly comparison. Sure, crime would go up no doubt. But I doubt you would have pipe bombs and IED's blowing up women and children at the local super market...
We took the lid off the boiling pot in Iraq. It was dangerous and risky - and our leadership has clearly and repeatedly failed to properly anticipate problems and correct thier mistakes.
But this doesn't mean we were wrong to do what we did. Sure, Bush may have lied about it - and the lie was surely wrong and even criminal if you want to see it that way.
But it doesn't mean what we are trying to do in Iraq is wrong.
The criminals would take over by force... of course everyone else would flee to another state - but if there were none - there would require a war to take control - which would take decades - as weapons are ammassed and alliences formed... until them - it would be rape and pillage -
We be building IEDs - hanging every Iraqi we could find -
They are just people...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I guess people are different.. I find it sick to use advance technology to devistate a country killing their people and leaving them as we have left Iraq.. then patrol their streets attempting to force them to govern as we see fit..
Then to rub salt -- we publicly wonder why they are behaving so violently.
I'm not saying the U.S. is blameless, but when someone decides to blow up and kill people shopping in a market, the vast majority of the blame/responsibility is their own. It shouldn't even be a debate.
(I could ALMOST understand if they were attacking the U.S. forces, but they're mostly killing civilians)
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Please address the following point...
Each entity in Iraq that is fighting for the future of the country is indeed fighting so their agenda and will is imposed on all Iraqi's. The Shia are fighting for the shia. The Sunni's are fighting for the Sunni's. The Jihadist are fighting for a Islamic theocracy.The Kurds just want to be left alone.
The United States is the only country "fighting" for everyone. We are no more forcing Iraqi's to submit to our will than any other group in arms over there.
But of all the groups, why does it not make sense to support the one whose agenda calls for a representative democracy - the empowerment of all people? Don't mistake this for McDonalds and Nikes on every corner of Baghdad. That is globalization and an idividual choice for every Iraqi to make. They can have whatever level of consumerism their culture is comfortable with.
We are not forcing Air Force One's and Big Macs on them. We are forcing them to not kill each other based on religious and tribal differences. What is wrong with that - seems pretty noble to me.
That's the power of religious ideology right there. It's able to blind people and turn them into cold-blooded muderers, just as political ideologies can also do.
Yeah, yeah - the root cause of everything bad is religion to you, huh?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Are you in a round about way trying to deny that religous intolerance is not one of the root causes of the problems in Iraq?
No it wouldnt; we would have that shit figured out within days.
Is that what i said? I'll need to re-read my post. I must have made a typo!
That is a reasonable question.
First, I don't agree that we are fighting for them not to kill each other - or that they are not attacking us. We have taken a side. and the fact is that the side we chose is the smallest side.. the vast majority of Iraq are currently "insurgents" which is a label we use as a bad word - almost equivalent to terrorist - when in fact it means the ones opposed to the government - which is the government we installed.
We have merely created a team and are supporting it just enough to keep it alive - but that side has no hope of winning the hearts of Iraqis..
This will never end if we continue to ignore what Iraqis want and to ignore the neighboring countries and cultures that exist in Iraq.
We are just perpetuating the tragedy.
Much agreed. Abuskedti seems to ingnore the fact that the percentage of criminals is very small compared to our overall population. Sure, that percentage would increase should law enforcement cease - but not enough to engulf our society in the turmoil of Iraq. That comparison is laughable...
As if most American's are jealous of the un-checked violence in Iraq, right Abuskedti? If we loved choas and killing so much, why don't we see a mass defection to countries where that is common-place? Fuck our cops ya know? If they are going to keep us down, then let's just skip down to Mexico where anything goes... As if our government is subjigating our people to be decent human beings, and we are just itching to rape somebody or go steal something but Uncle Sam might throw us in jail...
The reality is that the agenda of most Americans is to live a happy, peaceful, fullfilled life and contribute something towards the future. We like our society and though we disagree on many aspects and issues - most of us have learned to debate our diferernces peacefully and tolerate them as well.
We are simply too busy living life to go murder our neighbor becuase he's a different religion from me, or he's a Democrat and I'm a Republican. Those are the actions of desperate people, and most Americans aren't desperate. And if our police left, we wouldn't suddenly become desperate people.
I agree that there is a thin veneer to our society and civilization in general. Sure, there are certain events that would embroil our streets with stealing, murdering and rape. But we're talking aleins landing or an apocolyptic asteroid or something - Not our cops packing up shop.
What evidence do you have to support the idea that we are not fighting in Iraq for peace and stability?
No - I gleaned that from a collective of your posts on various topics where you always blame religion...even if the topic has nothing to do with that.
Have you every considered that, to oppose something so unilaterally probably takes some level of brain washing as well?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
You raise a good point here... let's picture an Iraqi occupation of Omaha. I seriously doubt that our American society would fracture along racial, poitical or socio-economic lines. More than likely, the citizens of Omaha would ban together and fight as one.... Christians side-by-side with Muslims, Jews... Blacks and Whites - rich and poor bound together becuase they are Americans above all else.
I doubt you would see the Iraqi's invade and all of a sudden the blacks go attack all the white becuase of slavery 150 years ago or Jim Crow for decades. Or Catholics go blow up Jewish business....
We are the ultimate melting pot of humans. Iraq really could learn something from our example ya know?
No we're not perfect, but who are the Iraqi's to crticize right?
our criminal element is low because we are constantly at war with them.. The courts are full the police are swamped - and yet much crime still occurs..
Take away the courts, the police and the military - which is sometimes needed, like the riots in Los Angeles for example..
with no protection - the criminal would rise to the top recruiting many you previously were sure wern't criminals - You for example...
But would we be going to markets where other Americans were shopping and blowing them up?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I don't see it exactly that way.. but close
What happened in Iraq is that some Iraqis went along with the invaders.. They are definately targets - and since there is no security in the streets - all accusations are word of mouth - then retaliations are inevidable due to mistaken accusations
Yes we would band, as one, against Iraqis.. and against americans siding with the iraqis... But if we continued to lose for years - tensions would mount and of course the criminals would rise - looting - raping -- and in time - we be in absolute chaos
Just becuase we wouldn't do it exactly the same doesn't change anything.
There would be gangs... murderous gangs.. organized crime - without fear of justice..
it would be horrible.
It would be as bad as Iraq.
We did this and the only way to fix it - would be the only way the Iraqis could fix it if they invaded us..
They would have to trust that we could do it ourselves... And if they did, they would be correct
just as if we did, we'd be correct.
I do not defend or rationalize murderers of any kind.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Not even plausible. American people will form their own police force and re-instate their own court system in a matter of weeks.
Also there would be no suicide bombers...catholics and protestants only fight in ireland.
Gang violence would be at a mininum
Just shows that you don't look at Iraq objectively
If the American people tried to do that - the Iraqis would attack - becasue they would be Insurgents - you know against the current government
after killing those trying to band together - Iraq would announce - that we were doing it to ourselves..Just come along with the government by American's that Iraqis have established and everything will be peaceful