Bush says

NCfan

Iraqi's deserve better than another strong man that rules the country and keeps order with an iron fist. If we leave, that is exactly what will happen. That is not only bad for us, it is bad for Iraqi's, it is bad for the world in general.

People murder and are killed everyday. More Americans shot each other last year than were killed in Iraq during the last four years combined. Our losses are relatively light considering what we are doing and that is an important factor in making judgements. The "no life is worth it' mentality doesn't hold water for anybody who doesn't live in lala land. Let's call a spade a spade here. Life is not fair, none of us are owed anything. The risk is surely worth the potential reward. It's not like we have instituted a draft - we have an all volunteer army. AN ARMY people..... you don't sign up and become a soldier with the expectation of being a bean counter. You are a warrior and feel that defending the policies of your government is worth your life.

The only reason the American public wants us out is based on emotion, not solid knowledge of geopolitics and foreign policy. Democrats only want us out to solidify their power. They are capable of making mistakes just as well as Bush and co. The only reason they are appealing is because Bush looks so bad, not becuase they have all the answers.

Cosmo

I see it like this...
That place is fucked up... it has been fucked up since... well, since forever. We went in there like a bunch of testosterone injected morons and stirred up the pot in that already fucked up place.
Now... think about it... when we leave... whenever we leave... what is going to happen? Fucked up shit, that's what's going to happen. Whether we leave today or 10 years from today... some fucked up shit is going to happen.
The best we can do is try to figure out which one of our choices is going to lead to the LEAST fucked up outcome.
...
Personally, I think that if we REALLY want what's best for the Iraqi people... we owe them security. To gain security... sorry, but it'll take about 300,000 quality troops, about 20 years and about 5 trillion tax dollars to get that place to look like downtown Detriot, at best. That is the 'Job' that everyone is claiming that needs to 'git done'.

Milestone

The only way for peace is to split the region into thirds (like it was before the damned Brits divided it up after WWI).

NCfan

The bottom line is that war is a performanced-based venture. If we had better results now, the situation would be entirely different. If things are going well, people don't care about war. If things are going bad, war is terrible, my oh my!

cincybearcat

macgyver06 wrote:

so you are saying right now...the sunnis, kurdish and shittes are killing each other?

I am saying they fought each other and if the US just pulled out arbitrarily they would do so again. And with the state the US would leave Iraq, it wouldn't be too far a stretch for them to all form their own individual countries.

This is all specualtion of course as is anyone's opinion here.

NCfan

gue_barium wrote:

So, it is important to you that the US save face.


So, oil prices and dependency on foreign oil appeal to you.


Isn't that what democracy is all about?


Who's underlying problems? Ours or theirs?


There are a lot of problems in North Carolina. Is Jesse Helms dead yet?

Spoken like a true 15 year old.

hippiemom

Cosmo wrote:

I see it like this...
That place is fucked up... it has been fucked up since... well, since forever. We went in there like a bunch of testosterone injected morons and stirred up the pot in that already fucked up place.
Now... think about it... when we leave... whenever we leave... what is going to happen? Fucked up shit, that's what's going to happen. Whether we leave today or 10 years from today... some fucked up shit is going to happen.
The best we can do is try to figure out which one of our choices is going to lead to the LEAST fucked up outcome.
...
Personally, I think that if we REALLY want what's best for the Iraqi people... we owe them security. To gain security... sorry, but it'll take about 300,000 quality troops, about 20 years and about 5 trillion tax dollars to get that place to look like downtown Detriot, at best. That is the 'Job' that everyone is claiming that needs to 'git done'.

I agree with this. If someone has a master plan for coming up with 5 trillion dollars, and a way to get a couple hundred thousand more people to volunteer for military service, I'm all ears.

If no one has such a plan, then let's just get the fuck out. What we've done so far hasn't helped, it's made things worse, so why the hell would we want to do it for another year or more? We're putting more lives at risk for nothing, just postponing the inevitable.

gue_barium

NCfan wrote:

Spoken like a true 15 year old.

Right, right.

Milestone

Perhaps we should make Iraq into the 51st state and start taxing them.

macgyver06

NCfan wrote:

Iraqi's deserve better than another strong man that rules the country and keeps order with an iron fist. If we leave, that is exactly what will happen. That is not only bad for us, it is bad for Iraqi's, it is bad for the world in general.

People murder and are killed everyday. More Americans shot each other last year than were killed in Iraq during the last four years combined. Our losses are relatively light considering what we are doing and that is an important factor in making judgements. The "no life is worth it' mentality doesn't hold water for anybody who doesn't live in lala land. Let's call a spade a spade here. Life is not fair, none of us are owed anything. The risk is surely worth the potential reward. It's not like we have instituted a draft - we have an all volunteer army. AN ARMY people..... you don't sign up and become a soldier with the expectation of being a bean counter. You are a warrior and feel that defending the policies of your government is worth your life.

The only reason the American public wants us out is based on emotion, not solid knowledge of geopolitics and foreign policy. Democrats only want us out to solidify their power. They are capable of making mistakes just as well as Bush and co. The only reason they are appealing is because Bush looks so bad, not becuase they have all the answers.

under hussein, iraqis did vote to go to war with iran

cincybearcat

Milestone wrote:

The only way for peace is to split the region into thirds (like it was before the damned Brits divided it up after WWI).

You may be right.

NCfan

macgyver06 wrote:

under hussein, iraqis did vote to go to war with iran

What difference does that make?

Cosmo

NCfan wrote:

Iraqi's deserve better than another strong man that rules the country and keeps order with an iron fist. If we leave, that is exactly what will happen. That is not only bad for us, it is bad for Iraqi's, it is bad for the world in general.

People murder and are killed everyday. More Americans shot each other last year than were killed in Iraq during the last four years combined. Our losses are relatively light considering what we are doing and that is an important factor in making judgements. The "no life is worth it' mentality doesn't hold water for anybody who doesn't live in lala land. Let's call a spade a spade here. Life is not fair, none of us are owed anything. The risk is surely worth the potential reward. It's not like we have instituted a draft - we have an all volunteer army. AN ARMY people..... you don't sign up and become a soldier with the expectation of being a bean counter. You are a warrior and feel that defending the policies of your government is worth your life.

The only reason the American public wants us out is based on emotion, not solid knowledge of geopolitics and foreign policy. Democrats only want us out to solidify their power. They are capable of making mistakes just as well as Bush and co. The only reason they are appealing is because Bush looks so bad, not becuase they have all the answers.

...
"Our losses"? So, the loss of American soldier's lives are 'acceptable losses' because it is low, relative to the domestic murder rate? You are not suffereing any 'losses' here.... none of us are. You are not asked to make any sacrifices in goods or services... you are not paying for this war (your kids and their kids are footing the bill)... you are not doing anything. The ONLY ones making sacrifices in this war are the soldiers and their families... THAT'S IT! To the rest of us... this is a pain-free war.
And their losses are acceptable because 'they voluenteered'... 'no one held a gun to their heads'? Those excuses are basically saying they are idiots for enlisting... idiots driven by emotion, not solid knowledge of geopolitics and foreign policy.
And people do not voluenteer into the military to be abused by our leaders... weilding military power like a needle dicked retard with an M-16. They voluenteer to serve their 'Country', not their 'Politicians'. You want them to fight in the 'War On Terror'? Well, how about having them fight the goddamn Terrorists instead of refereeing a goddamn Civil War?

Cosmo

Milestone wrote:

Perhaps we should make Iraq into the 51st state and start taxing them.

...
I disagree...
I think it should be up to THEM... not US... to decide whether or not to split it up or remain as one.
That way, THEY are to blame when their goddamn grandkids go to war over the borders that were drawn... not US.

Abuskedti

We are not helping the region establish an Iraq. We are forcing our view of how it should be.

We can not help them if we are not able to communicate with Iran and the rest of the region and most importantly with those in Iraq opposed to our plan.

The talk is one sided.

callen

NCfan wrote:

The existing government, though weak and newly formed, would disenergrate. There would be a nation with 25 million citizens and no government in the middle of the most strategic geography in the world for democratic countries. it would be total chaos that would make the last 4 years look like a joke.

A full-on civil war would break out. Other countries in the region would get involved to try and stablize the madness - Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc. Things could spiral out of control to the point where a regional war could break out. The price of oil would skyrocket.

Sure, the Malaki government is weak and many are fighting against it. But regardless who is in charge there, there are factions that will disagree and try to challenge the authority with violence.

It's not like the U.S. has engineered this situation. We just didn't contain it. We fucked that up for sure. But the underlying problems are not our fault. They would be exposed sooner or later - we just made it sooner.

There are a lot of problems in the Middle East, and hopefully we have started the process of working many of them out.

and feel we do have some responsibility to the Iraqi's that have supported democracy...as many will be slaughtered once we pull out. Question is..this...will we really be able to prop up this government..and even if we do..what makes you think once we do leave that it won't just go back to the way it was under Sadaam. This is a reaallly bad situation....and as with you I'm pretty frustrated with both parties how they're handling it...but just don't see us making any lasting change in the middle east in the near future.........can't change a culture. Also we really need to as humans call out religion and the use of gods for what it really is...a ruse. Till we do that...this will be a fked planet.

Peace.

Cosmo

Abuskedti wrote:

We are not helping the region establish an Iraq. We are forcing our view of how it should be.

We can not help them if we are not able to communicate with Iran and the rest of the region and most importantly with those in Iraq opposed to our plan.

The talk is one sided.

...
I agree with this. You CANNOT talk about the Middle East and say, "We will not negotiate with Iran or Syria". Sorry, but they are huge factors in the region. You HAVE to include both Iran and Syria if you are seriously contemplating long term stability over there.
And we cannot expect to change the culture into our consumer based culture over night. This is going to take decades and will basically mean the degradation of the religion of Islam. A change like that will only occur from within... we are arrogant fools to think WE can make them change.

Pacomc79

macgyver06 wrote:

split into three...civil war??

and i will ask again on this board...and again im positive i either won't get a reply or i will get some kind of funny joke comment..and no answer so...

WHO IS KILLING EACH OTHER IN IRAQ?

brown people is not acceptable here..

shiites killing sunnis sunnis killing shiites etc etc. I'm sure the Kurds are in there too somewhere..... Taliban, various national militaries killing various gangs, klans, clubs, groups what have you.

There are a lot of people killing each other for not a lot of really good reasons, most of which are either confusion, hatred, insecurity, power etc. etc.


Invading Iraq and destablizing the region was a dumb idea. It's as dumb an idea today as it was then, but pulling out is as much of a death sentance today for the good hardworking non fanatical average Iraqui that helped out as it was when Bushes father made that same mistake. I tend to like the deadline, no US government has ever followed a treaty or deadline, why would they start now? If it puts pressure on the new Iraq government to get off their ass and do something knowing that the US will pull out, fantastic. Two front wars are stupid, expensive and unwinable.

Much like federal government treats US citizens this is micromanagement. Ok, so Saddam is deposed. Great, ok they found a new guy great, "ok, what we're going to do is protect the citizenry untill you guys can do it yourself and then we are going home sound good? ok. If you need any help or hear of any stash of WMD's give us a call." That's about the extent of what the conversation should be.

Cosmo

Pacomc79 wrote:

shiites killing sunnis sunnis killing shiites etc etc. I'm sure the Kurds are in there too somewhere..... Taliban, various national militaries killing various gangs, klans, clubs, groups what have you.

There are a lot of people killing each other for not a lot of really good reasons, most of which are either confusion, hatred, insecurity, power etc. etc.

...
ADD:
The killings continue because the security is not sufficient.
...
Civilians are soft targets, as opposed to U.S. Troops. Think of lions on the Serengetti... they go after the easiest prey. Same thing here... why risk getting killed by return fire or the bull's horns when you can hit the unarmed, hornless cows and calfs? Seriously.

macgyver06

so the insurgents are sunnis and shiites? is this what we are agreeing on?