Our leaders are clearly idiots. In fact it blows my mind how fucking stupid they are. Bush with his "mission accomplished" bullshit. Cheney outdoing that with his "last throes" shit. You're right, we are being fed a bunch of lies by the Bush administration, no doubt. Fuck them!
However, I say we stay there as long as it takes. Yeah, I do think we can fix the situation over there. People are indocorinated to think certain ways and hold certain prejudices. In WWII, the Japanese on Okinawa would commit suicide if they thought they were gonna be captured by US soldier becuase of what they were told. Familes would throw their children off of cliffs, etc. I've seen footage of it on the History channel. But now look at Japan. They went from a country of people who thought their leader was a god, and who would sacrifice themselves for him... Kamikazees, etc. to one of the greatest countries on Earth with a functioning democracy and the second largest economny in the world.
So yes, I say we can change hearts and minds. It all starts with bringing security, and then hoping that Iraqi lawmakes can settle differences through politics and bring national unity. I think this will take a LONG, LONG time - maybe a decade. But at the current pace, I would say that is worth 10,000 american lives.
The Japanese had a fascination with American culture and technology even as they fought us - we helped introduce them to the "modern world," for lack of a better term - and it still took two nukes to bring a quick end to the conflict. Should we go as far in Iraq and the larger Middle East? Would it even make a difference? Middle Easterners are a bit different than the Japanese, after all.
The Japanese also considered each other fellow citizens of a larger Japanese nation. There is no such sense in Iraq, a country who's boarders were drawn by Western foreigners - largely the same ones now trying to stabilize the "country." What if a foreign nation came over here, drew an east/west line through the middle of the United States, and said that everything South of that line is now part of the same country as Mexico. You are all now fellow citizens. Then, in order to enforce those boarders, supported a brutal dictator that kept the lot of us down. Later, that same country moves back in, removes the dictator at the cost of tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of lives (actually, considering our population, millions would probably be the correct ratio), and then procedes to "stabilize" this Southern U.S./Mexican country. Are you going to support them?
This isn't World War II. But if we keep this shit up, it might become World War III.
We might as well do the job now while we're there, than leave it for another generation of Americans to have to do. It is a dirty job, and I'm sorry we have been stuck with it - but we have to step up.
We are leaving it for another generation to deal with. And then another and another and another. We got involved in a conflict that goes back many many generations - and will continue likely whether we're there or not.
Oh, and someone like Al-Sadr wouldn't be Saddam II. Someone like Al-Sadr would likely have more popular support.
I think you raise a good point here. We ARE better than the terrorists, much better - but we are not perfect. The media would rather point out our few flaws than focus on an enemy that is totally dedicated to the practice of torture and outright targeting of civillians.
They torture anybody they can get their hands on; civillian Westerners, journalists, captured enemies, trader's to their cuase, Iraqi civillians - it makes no difference. They torture and record it and put the footage on the internet, or feed it to Al-Jazera so it can be used as a tool to spread fear and strengthen their power.
This is absolutely horrific, but again, their is a misnomer in the public. Just as in 2003 most Americans thought Saddam was responsible for 9/11, most people around the world recognize America as the country most associated with torture! This is the rub.
No one, wether it's the public, government, or media, denies that the terrorists are brutal savage animals that would behead an innocent civilian or journalists. The media does cover those events as they occur but it is nothing new, sadly. Knowing this we are not shocked when a story about a journalist, soldier, or civilians being tortured or beheaded is aired. We are saddened and disgusted by there is no shock becajuse we already know what these butchers are capable of. Now when a story airs about our own government acting in a similar manner, granted the level of severeyy and brutality is no where near that of the terrorist, it is shocking to the public because we consider ourselves and our government to be beyond the actions that these terrorist engage in. Hence the spot light on our actions over the terroists by the media. Now I'm not excusing the media for their sensationalism but let's face it it's abusin ess and a headline reading aqbout US personal torturing prisoners is going to sell a lot more copies that a headline reading about the terrorists torturing or beheading someone. I believe they should both garner the same amount of exposure but we have become desensitized to the atrocious acts that these people are capable of and come to accept that this is the way they behave, regardless of unjust or brutal it is. I don't think that the American public can ever settle into the same mindset when it comes to our people behaving that way.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
The very fact that many Americans think torture is OK because "our enemy" does it shows just how far we've fallen. If you cannot figure that out then you are as ignorant as the gang in charge of our nation right now. For God's sake, Gonzales said torturing a child in front of his parents was acceptable to get information. This is the nation we have become?
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
The very fact that many Americans think torture is OK because "our enemy" does it shows just how far we've fallen. If you cannot figure that out then you are as ignorant as the gang in charge of our nation right now. For God's sake, Gonzales said torturing a child in front of his parents was acceptable to get information. This is the nation we have become?
How the mighty have fallen......not the people...but conscience....
I don't understand. Most people on this message board oppose torture, yet they do not support our war to capture, kill or stop those that torture and purposely target civillians as a method of solidifing their power.
By your own admission, isn't this moral grounds to justify our war (at this point in time)? There is not question that if we leave, more people will be tortured than if we stay...
If you oppose killing and torture, then wouldn't you support whatever course of action that will limit this fate to as few people as possible? I don't see how somebody can say I don't support killing, yet they would not kill a few to save the many. That doesn't make sense.
So then you are in full support of the South American's view of the States. You know the good old CIA keeping it clean down there. Don't be a hypocrite now.
So then you are in full support of the South American's view of the States. You know the good old CIA keeping it clean down there. Don't be a hypocrite now.
There are millions of people who live in South America. I don't think it's quite representative to say that all of them or even a majority of them do not like the U.S. That's like saying because we have race problems in the US that all white people hate black people. Do many in South America hate the US, sure.
There are millions of people who live in South America. I don't think it's quite representative to say that all of them or even a majority of them do not like the U.S. That's like saying because we have race problems in the US that all white people hate black people. Do many in South America hate the US, sure.
Kind of like watching the US feed of the news and thinking that everybody in the Middle East hates us. Even the ones who wear Nike shoes, smoke Yankee butts, were educated in North America, invest in the US stock market, keep the US economy afloat. Yeah I hear ya, loud and clear. I guess the percentage could float from 10% to 99.9% depending on which network you watch and who you want to believe. Kind of like the US torture system compared to those nasty Arab ways.
It's O.K. to shoot someone in the foot, because shooting them in the knee is worse.
It's O.K. to shoot someone in the knee, because shooting them in the stomach is worse.
It's O.K. to shoot someone in the stomach, because shooting them in the groin is worse.
It's O.K. to shoot someone in the groin, because shooting them in the head is worse.
It's O.K. to shoot someone in the head, because shooting two people in the head is worse.
They're not proposing that US torture is okay. Our theory is, if you're going to feel for suffering prisoners, you should be mad at those third world sadinistas and hezbollahs and hutus, not the US of A.
They're not proposing that US torture is okay. Our theory is, if you're going to feel for suffering prisoners, you should be mad at those third world sadinistas and hezbollahs and hutus, not the US of A.
mmm, sandanistas....popularly elected by the people of nicauragua...then subjected to some of the most brutal terrorist atrocities of all time...directly funded and implemented by washington.
What is this entire war about, the war in Iraq? If we are there torturing and killing civilians..which we are...invading homes and imprisoning people indefinately...what the fuck kind of society are we bringing down on them? What great beacon of hope the US must be in teh middle east...its no wonder teh resistance hasn't slowed...and it probably never will. Most would rather die it seems than be subjected to the kind of police state the US is bringing down on the people of Iraq. Torture, home invasions, indescriminate jailings, the list goes on...
They're not proposing that US torture is okay. Our theory is, if you're going to feel for suffering prisoners, you should be mad at those third world sadinistas and hezbollahs and hutus, not the US of A.
Don't be mad at the US? Why not? Do they torture? Yes. Any reason not to be mad? No. Saying we shouldn't be mad at the US because there are worse people/nations out there is ridiculous.
They're not proposing that US torture is okay. Our theory is, if you're going to feel for suffering prisoners, you should be mad at those third world sandinistas and hezbollahs and hutus, not the US of A.
You sunk your own point by bringing Sandinista into it.
Some USAians are so blinded by their patriotism that they go as far as saying "our torture is not as brutal as Al Quaida torture" to justify their own country's illegal actions.
So funny, keep it up, the comparison between Al Quaida and USA are always entertaining...
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Comments
The Japanese also considered each other fellow citizens of a larger Japanese nation. There is no such sense in Iraq, a country who's boarders were drawn by Western foreigners - largely the same ones now trying to stabilize the "country." What if a foreign nation came over here, drew an east/west line through the middle of the United States, and said that everything South of that line is now part of the same country as Mexico. You are all now fellow citizens. Then, in order to enforce those boarders, supported a brutal dictator that kept the lot of us down. Later, that same country moves back in, removes the dictator at the cost of tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of lives (actually, considering our population, millions would probably be the correct ratio), and then procedes to "stabilize" this Southern U.S./Mexican country. Are you going to support them?
This isn't World War II. But if we keep this shit up, it might become World War III.
Oh, and someone like Al-Sadr wouldn't be Saddam II. Someone like Al-Sadr would likely have more popular support.
Well keep an eye on the Japanese then, because they are guilty of some of the most brutal torture in history. Let's hope they've forgotten how.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
No one, wether it's the public, government, or media, denies that the terrorists are brutal savage animals that would behead an innocent civilian or journalists. The media does cover those events as they occur but it is nothing new, sadly. Knowing this we are not shocked when a story about a journalist, soldier, or civilians being tortured or beheaded is aired. We are saddened and disgusted by there is no shock becajuse we already know what these butchers are capable of. Now when a story airs about our own government acting in a similar manner, granted the level of severeyy and brutality is no where near that of the terrorist, it is shocking to the public because we consider ourselves and our government to be beyond the actions that these terrorist engage in. Hence the spot light on our actions over the terroists by the media. Now I'm not excusing the media for their sensationalism but let's face it it's abusin ess and a headline reading aqbout US personal torturing prisoners is going to sell a lot more copies that a headline reading about the terrorists torturing or beheading someone. I believe they should both garner the same amount of exposure but we have become desensitized to the atrocious acts that these people are capable of and come to accept that this is the way they behave, regardless of unjust or brutal it is. I don't think that the American public can ever settle into the same mindset when it comes to our people behaving that way.
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
How the mighty have fallen......not the people...but conscience....
So then you are in full support of the South American's view of the States. You know the good old CIA keeping it clean down there. Don't be a hypocrite now.
There are millions of people who live in South America. I don't think it's quite representative to say that all of them or even a majority of them do not like the U.S. That's like saying because we have race problems in the US that all white people hate black people. Do many in South America hate the US, sure.
Kind of like watching the US feed of the news and thinking that everybody in the Middle East hates us. Even the ones who wear Nike shoes, smoke Yankee butts, were educated in North America, invest in the US stock market, keep the US economy afloat. Yeah I hear ya, loud and clear. I guess the percentage could float from 10% to 99.9% depending on which network you watch and who you want to believe. Kind of like the US torture system compared to those nasty Arab ways.
Good lord. Really? Even worse than I thought. Do you remember where you read it?
R.i.p. My Dad - May 28, 2007
R.i.p. Black Tail (cat) - Sept. 20, 2008
They're not proposing that US torture is okay. Our theory is, if you're going to feel for suffering prisoners, you should be mad at those third world sadinistas and hezbollahs and hutus, not the US of A.
mmm, sandanistas....popularly elected by the people of nicauragua...then subjected to some of the most brutal terrorist atrocities of all time...directly funded and implemented by washington.
What is this entire war about, the war in Iraq? If we are there torturing and killing civilians..which we are...invading homes and imprisoning people indefinately...what the fuck kind of society are we bringing down on them? What great beacon of hope the US must be in teh middle east...its no wonder teh resistance hasn't slowed...and it probably never will. Most would rather die it seems than be subjected to the kind of police state the US is bringing down on the people of Iraq. Torture, home invasions, indescriminate jailings, the list goes on...
Don't be mad at the US? Why not? Do they torture? Yes. Any reason not to be mad? No. Saying we shouldn't be mad at the US because there are worse people/nations out there is ridiculous.
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Some USAians are so blinded by their patriotism that they go as far as saying "our torture is not as brutal as Al Quaida torture" to justify their own country's illegal actions.
So funny, keep it up, the comparison between Al Quaida and USA are always entertaining...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau