For those that Bitch about U.S. torture

13

Comments

  • even flow?
    even flow? Posts: 8,066
    mammasan wrote:
    Just because the methods we employ are not as severe or brutal doesn't make them right.


    Somehow, someway, I think that when your boys send the bad people via FedEx to Syria or some other nice place like that, that the torture probably ranks right up there with the pictures on those pages. You know when the CIA is doing the training, the torture ain't going to be looking at pictures of bad looking people or having to watch bad movies. Call me crazy but I think they are on par. Only a fool looking to defend the right of killing people in a foreign land with a little bit of guilt would actually think that there is a difference.
    You've changed your place in this world!
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    even flow? wrote:
    Somehow, someway, I think that when your boys send the bad people via FedEx to Syria or some other nice place like that, that the torture probably ranks right up there with the pictures on those pages. You know when the CIA is doing the training, the torture ain't going to be looking at pictures of bad looking people or having to watch bad movies. Call me crazy but I think they are on par. Only a fool looking to defend the right of killing people in a foreign land with a little bit of guilt would actually think that there is a difference.

    Yes it's obvious that when we ship these people off the places like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia that the same methods of torture will be employed. I was speaking about what we do ourselves in places like Guantanimo. The methods are not as severe and/or brutal but they are still torture non the less.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • even flow?
    even flow? Posts: 8,066
    mammasan wrote:
    Yes it's obvious that when we ship these people off the places like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia that the same methods of torture will be employed. I was speaking about what we do ourselves in places like Guantanimo. The methods are not as severe and/or brutal but they are still torture non the less.


    I wonder if they still use the Chinese Water Torture in the modern age? Or give Indian Sunburns? :)

    I don't know how cutting somebody's hand off is torture. To me that would be a pretty fast thing to happen. I thought torture involved, well torture. ;)
    You've changed your place in this world!
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    even flow? wrote:
    I wonder if they still use the Chinese Water Torture in the modern age? Or give Indian Sunburns? :)

    I don't know how cutting somebody's hand off is torture. To me that would be a pretty fast thing to happen. I thought torture involved, well torture. ;)

    Maybe they cut it off real slow. :)
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • NCfan
    NCfan Posts: 945
    mammasan wrote:
    Maybe more of the focus is placed on our actions because we are supposed to be better that the terrorist. We are not supposed to act as they act and do as they do. Like I stated early the jihadist are savage animals. As horrible as their actions are it is what is expected of them., but from us I would expect more.

    I think you raise a good point here. We ARE better than the terrorists, much better - but we are not perfect. The media would rather point out our few flaws than focus on an enemy that is totally dedicated to the practice of torture and outright targeting of civillians.

    They torture anybody they can get their hands on; civillian Westerners, journalists, captured enemies, trader's to their cuase, Iraqi civillians - it makes no difference. They torture and record it and put the footage on the internet, or feed it to Al-Jazera so it can be used as a tool to spread fear and strengthen their power.

    This is absolutely horrific, but again, their is a misnomer in the public. Just as in 2003 most Americans thought Saddam was responsible for 9/11, most people around the world recognize America as the country most associated with torture! This is the rub.
  • yellowled24
    yellowled24 Posts: 3,118
    by posting these links for the whole world to see, you are giving AlQueda what they want.....publicity and acknowledgement of their sick reality.
    Yes, its shit what they do, they are completely wrong and despicable....but if they could see us talking about their henious crimes they would be stoked.


    And I really dont care if I spelt anything wrong, cause im moving onto the drunk thread now.
    "....and was very surprised to see that he didnt actually have a recipe for anus-ankle soup." - Big Ed
  • Kann
    Kann Posts: 1,146
    NCfan wrote:
    I think you raise a good point here. We ARE better than the terrorists, much better - but we are not perfect. The media would rather point out our few flaws than focus on an enemy that is totally dedicated to the practice of torture and outright targeting of civillians.

    They torture anybody they can get their hands on; civillian Westerners, journalists, captured enemies, trader's to their cuase, Iraqi civillians - it makes no difference. They torture and record it and put the footage on the internet, or feed it to Al-Jazera so it can be used as a tool to spread fear and strengthen their power.

    This is absolutely horrific, but again, their is a misnomer in the public. Just as in 2003 most Americans thought Saddam was responsible for 9/11, most people around the world recognize America as the country most associated with torture! This is the rub.

    I don't understand, al qaeda tortures humans and release footage for the masses to see and be frightened but a majority of people are unaware of that? As for thinking America is "the country most associated with torture", it's plainly stupid.
    But let's say there are stupid people around the globe. The fact that america is wrongly recognized as a country who tortures the most is a reason to continue torture?
    I won't give you a lesson on democracy, republics, human rights and all this stuff which is a huge progress for mankind. It's quite a beautiful story really.
  • even flow?
    even flow? Posts: 8,066
    Kann wrote:
    I don't understand, al qaeda tortures humans and release footage for the masses to see and be frightened but a majority of people are unaware of that? As for thinking America is "the country most associated with torture", it's plainly stupid.
    But let's say there are stupid people around the globe. The fact that america is wrongly recognized as a country who tortures the most is a reason to continue torture?
    I won't give you a lesson on democracy, republics, human rights and all this stuff which is a huge progress for mankind. It's quite a beautiful story really.

    Obviously the previous poster can see the difference between having your hand lopped off and having electrodes put on your testicles. I know I don't see a difference but it must help him/her sleep better at night. ;)
    You've changed your place in this world!
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    even flow? wrote:
    Obviously the previous poster can see the difference between having your hand lopped off and having electrodes put on your testicles. I know I don't see a difference but it must help him/her sleep better at night. ;)


    If you can't see the difference between your hand and your testicles....you need to spend less time alone.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • NCfan
    NCfan Posts: 945
    Kann wrote:
    I don't understand, al qaeda tortures humans and release footage for the masses to see and be frightened but a majority of people are unaware of that? As for thinking America is "the country most associated with torture", it's plainly stupid.
    But let's say there are stupid people around the globe. The fact that america is wrongly recognized as a country who tortures the most is a reason to continue torture?
    I won't give you a lesson on democracy, republics, human rights and all this stuff which is a huge progress for mankind. It's quite a beautiful story really.

    I agree it is completely stupid, but so is thinking Saddam was responsible for 9/11. I heard Al Gore on the Daily Show last night say that in 2003, over 70% of American's thought Saddam was responsible for 9/11. That is ludacris. I never once heard Bush or anybody else in the media say this.

    I think torture is wrong, just like I think abortion is wrong. But I think sometimes it is a necessary evil. As for torture, I would say 99.9% of the time it is wrong, but I do think there are exceptions.
  • NOCODE#1
    NOCODE#1 Posts: 1,477
    binauralsounds wrote:
    Here's somethin for ya. Makes our torture look like a fuckin tea party:

    http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0524072torture1.html
    OH this link makes it OK


    Thank god, now i feel better :rolleyes:
    Let's not be negative now. Thumper has spoken
  • NCfan
    NCfan Posts: 945
    I don't understand. Most people on this message board oppose torture, yet they do not support our war to capture, kill or stop those that torture and purposely target civillians as a method of solidifing their power.

    By your own admission, isn't this moral grounds to justify our war (at this point in time)? There is not question that if we leave, more people will be tortured than if we stay...

    If you oppose killing and torture, then wouldn't you support whatever course of action that will limit this fate to as few people as possible? I don't see how somebody can say I don't support killing, yet they would not kill a few to save the many. That doesn't make sense.
  • RainDog
    RainDog Posts: 1,824
    NCfan wrote:
    That doesn't make sense.
    The longer we're there, the more terrorists we create. The more terrorists we create, the more people will be tortured. The more people are tortured, the more reason to stay there longer. The longer we're there, the more terrorists we create. The more terrorists we create, the more people will be tortured. The more people are tortured, the more reason to stay there longer. The longer we're there, the more terrorists we create. The more terrorists we create.........
  • Kann
    Kann Posts: 1,146
    NCfan wrote:
    That doesn't make sense.

    What doesn't make sense is to start sacrificing your principles. No one is naive enough to believe that we can end wars, violence and torture. But we represent a humanist view of society which lays on the universal human rights declaration and we should never let one of these slip by as we try to work for the greater good. Because basically it turns an action based on good intentions in an unjustifiable crime.
    Even if (and I don't believe it one second) the war in iraq was started to deliver people from oppression it doesn't make it right, because starting such war goes against the principles upon which your (and mine) society is based. The same goes with torture.
  • NCfan
    NCfan Posts: 945
    RainDog wrote:
    The longer we're there, the more terrorists we create. The more terrorists we create, the more people will be tortured. The more people are tortured, the more reason to stay there longer. The longer we're there, the more terrorists we create. The more terrorists we create, the more people will be tortured. The more people are tortured, the more reason to stay there longer. The longer we're there, the more terrorists we create. The more terrorists we create.........

    I see it as - The longer we are there, the longer there will be secutiry in Iraq. The longer there is security, the better the chances the central governement will solidify power, gain allegaince from it's citizens and settle disputes through diplomatic channels and government institutions. I would rather have politicians fighting each other than the citizens.

    If the general population was up in arms against our soldiers or the Iraqi army was fighting our soldiers, I would be the first to say let's get the hell out of there. But as long as we are fighting gangs, criminals, militias, death squads, terrorist cells, etc... then we need to stay - becuase we can defeat these groups over time.
  • NCfan
    NCfan Posts: 945
    Kann wrote:
    What doesn't make sense is to start sacrificing your principles. No one is naive enough to believe that we can end wars, violence and torture. But we represent a humanist view of society which lays on the universal human rights declaration and we should never let one of these slip by as we try to work for the greater good. Because basically it turns an action based on good intentions in an unjustifiable crime.
    Even if (and I don't believe it one second) the war in iraq was started to deliver people from oppression it doesn't make it right, because starting such war goes against the principles upon which your (and mine) society is based. The same goes with torture.

    I agree. I don't condone it 99.9% of the time. I'm just mad that everybody is pointing the finger at us.
  • RainDog
    RainDog Posts: 1,824
    NCfan wrote:
    I see it as - The longer we are there, the longer there will be secutiry in Iraq. The longer there is security, the better the chances the central governement will solidify power, gain allegaince from it's citizens and settle disputes through diplomatic channels and government institutions. I would rather have politicians fighting each other than the citizens.

    If the general population was up in arms against our soldiers or the Iraqi army was fighting our soldiers, I would be the first to say let's get the hell out of there. But as long as we are fighting gangs, criminals, militias, death squads, terrorist cells, etc... then we need to stay - becuase we can defeat these groups over time.
    How much time? I remember hearing "a few months, tops" near the beginning of this conflict. "Last throes" a couple years ago. So how much time? If you say, "as long as it takes" then - well, these people have hated each other for centuries. We gonna fix that soon?
  • RainDog
    RainDog Posts: 1,824
    NCfan wrote:
    I agree. I don't condone it 99.9% of the time. I'm just mad that everybody is pointing the finger at us.
    Dog bites man isn't a story. Man bites dog, however.......
  • Jeanie
    Jeanie Posts: 9,446
    NCfan wrote:
    I agree. I don't condone it 99.9% of the time. I'm just mad that everybody is pointing the finger at us.

    Whose everybody?
    NOPE!!!

    *~You're IT Bert!~*

    Hold on to the thread
    The currents will shift
  • NCfan
    NCfan Posts: 945
    RainDog wrote:
    How much time? I remember hearing "a few months, tops" near the beginning of this conflict. "Last throes" a couple years ago. So how much time? If you say, "as long as it takes" then - well, these people have hated each other for centuries. We gonna fix that soon?

    Our leaders are clearly idiots. In fact it blows my mind how fucking stupid they are. Bush with his "mission accomplished" bullshit. Cheney outdoing that with his "last throes" shit. You're right, we are being fed a bunch of lies by the Bush administration, no doubt. Fuck them!

    However, I say we stay there as long as it takes. Yeah, I do think we can fix the situation over there. People are indocorinated to think certain ways and hold certain prejudices. In WWII, the Japanese on Okinawa would commit suicide if they thought they were gonna be captured by US soldier becuase of what they were told. Familes would throw their children off of cliffs, etc. I've seen footage of it on the History channel. But now look at Japan. They went from a country of people who thought their leader was a god, and who would sacrifice themselves for him... Kamikazees, etc. to one of the greatest countries on Earth with a functioning democracy and the second largest economny in the world.

    So yes, I say we can change hearts and minds. It all starts with bringing security, and then hoping that Iraqi lawmakes can settle differences through politics and bring national unity. I think this will take a LONG, LONG time - maybe a decade. But at the current pace, I would say that is worth 10,000 american lives.

    Am i happy about that, fuck no! Do I like war, fuck no! I just think it is the lesser of two evils that's all. I think if we leave, we are just gonna leave the place for Saddam part II. We are gonna lay out the red carpet for a guy like Al-Sadr to come in and take control of the country. Then we will just have to go back and fight in the same streets and neighborhoods again. We might as well do the job now while we're there, than leave it for another generation of Americans to have to do. It is a dirty job, and I'm sorry we have been stuck with it - but we have to step up.

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