And ever single one of them was caused by an American?
Of course not, the bombings in Yugoslavia was the work of NATO.
Like I said, it's not uniquely American at all.
I'm saying that war inevitably leads to casualties. And when you know you will kill innocent people in the process, is it really "unintentional"? To me "indifference" or "recklessness" captures it a lot better.
War is not something clean or good, a necessity yes in some cases, but not something anyone should rush to do.
To me, this is the most honest thing you've said. War is not clean and it is indeed not good. Many innocent people will die because of your (the military's) actions. Fact. That's the way it's always been and that's the way it'll be.
I cannot believe that there are soldiers (or other military people) who actually think they'll be able to fight or win a war without killing a great number of innocent people.
I guess what bothers me most is the denial, or the justification of the horrors they cause. It wouldn't bother me as much if they just said: "Yes, we kill innocent people. We believe the end justifies the means. It's sad they had to die, it's sad they lost their parents, or maybe some limbs but that's the reality of war."
They know from experience bombs are not accurate and that they kill indiscriminately.
For some of my friends "the end" came when "the means" were being deployed.
Of course not, the bombings in Yugoslavia was the work of NATO.
Like I said, it's not uniquely American at all.
I'm saying that war inevitably leads to casualties. And when you know you will kill innocent people in the process, is it really "unintentional"? To me "indifference" or "recklessness" captures it a lot better.
To me, this is the most honest thing you've said. War is not clean and it is indeed not good. Many innocent people will die because of your (the military's) actions. Fact. That's the way it's always been and that's the way it'll be.
I cannot believe that there are soldiers (or other military people) who actually think they'll be able to fight or win a war without killing a great number of innocent people.
I guess what bothers me most is the denial, or the justification of the horrors they cause. It wouldn't bother me as much if they just said: "Yes, we kill innocent people. We believe the end justifies the means. It's sad they had to die, it's sad they lost their parents, or maybe some limbs but that's the reality of war."
They know from experience bombs are not accurate and that they kill indiscriminately.
For some of my friends "the end" came when "the means" were being deployed.
I agree with you on some things here, but I think you loose sight as to what we have got our selves into. The current conflict we are fighting is difficult in the fact that its extremely hard to keep noncombatant out of the situation. The American people asked the military to perform a surgery with a meat cleaver (sorry about the analogy, but its the best I can come up with). No military has ever been successful in these kinds of conflicts, and so far we are doing the best job to date compared to any other military in the past.
What pisses me off is that our people asked the military to do a tough job with out knowing what they are getting themselves into. The military is doing the best they can with what they got, and I'm sorry if people aren't pleased with the result right away. This isn't a cut and dry conflict, its a difficult job that is past the point of no return, you can't stop it now, otherwise the world will be worse off then it already is. Why are people so surprised and shocked that these things happen? What did people expect? Once again, they asked for the military to do what some considered the impossible. Don't take it out on the people who are doing their job to the best of their abilities, people should know this is the reality of war, and by no means is it something people in the military ignore.
The military is an extension of politics, they do what they are told to do to complete the job, if you don't like the results, then don't send them, its that simple. America has got itself into this situation, and needs to see it to the end. I think we are on the same ground when it comes to civilian deaths, I don't want it any more than you, but your complaint about the military's accuracy in a type of conflict that no one has provided a good answer too isn't valid. If you want a solution that can settle both sides of the argument, then please come up with one, until then, don't bitch about the methods, people should have thought it through before the conflict.
While we are having this constructive conversation....this was posted on Yahoo. Please find a better way to deal with it, otherwise deal with the choices we have made. One side of the issue wants to portray us as defenders of the freeworld, and the otherside wants to say that we are a surpressive blood thirsty occupation, but they are both far from the truth. The reality of war is not black or white, and when people send the military, they need to know what they are getting themselves into, don't use them to make a point, they are doing what they train to do. Your complaint is with the government, not the military.
How do you end Terrorism? Like how would you deal with it at this point, do you have any ideas. Because we all agree that kiling people does not solve it, just creates more.
How do you end Terrorism? Like how would you deal with it at this point, do you have any ideas. Because we all agree that kiling people does not solve it, just creates more.
So what should the US do?
Fuck if I know, If I did, I would be winning the Nobel Peace Prize.
I know this old Chinese proverb, the English translation not in Chinese anyway.
'One step in the wrong direction will cause you a thousand years of regret'
But you see, America has no regret to begin with because they fail to see the problems. so they are simply faced with a thousand years of problems wondering 'why?'
What America needs to do is take two steps back before taking one step forward, understand it's history. Look at why it's in the position it's in.
America will have to stop it's one sided support of Israel, they will have to treat the world with a fair hand. They need to concentrate on helping it's own people, spending the many billions in the US building proper roads, schools, helping it's own people.
America has this urge to mess with everyone else, it was America that caused the problems in Iran with it's overthrowing of the democratically elected government of the time. The government of Mohammad Mosaddeq in the 1953 coup. Why does Iran hate America?? Was it not the Americans that's backed the Shah of Iran? The man who caused much grief for the people of Iran.
But do you ever hear these mainstream American politicians speak about any of this? They just ignore the history so how can they ever learn from it.
They are friends with Israel, you hear it daily how America will support Israel no matter what, indeed they support them no matter what, even after Israel was found guilty of false flag operations. What kinds of friends are these?
If your friend keeps on hurting you, why would you still call them friends? If you give your friend a knife and he stabs you, then the next day you sharpen the knife so he can stab you again. This is not weird to you?
I know this old Chinese proverb, the English translation not in Chinese anyway.
'One step in the wrong direction will cause you a thousand years of regret'
But you see, America has no regret to begin with because they fail to see the problems. so they are simply faced with a thousand years of problems wondering 'why?'
What America needs to do is take two steps back before taking one step forward, understand it's history. Look at why it's in the position it's in.
America will have to stop it's one sided support of Israel, they will have to treat the world with a fair hand. They need to concentrate on helping it's own people, spending the many billions in the US building proper roads, schools, helping it's own people.
America has this urge to mess with everyone else, it was America that caused the problems in Iran with it's overthrowing of the democratically elected government of the time. The government of Mohammad Mosaddeq in the 1953 coup. Why does Iran hate America?? Was it not the Americans that's backed the Shah of Iran? The man who caused much grief for the people of Iran.
But do you ever hear these mainstream American politicians speak about any of this? They just ignore the history so how can they ever learn from it.
They are friends with Israel, you hear it daily how America will support Israel no matter what, indeed they support them no matter what, even after Israel was found guilty of false flag operations. What kinds of friends are these?
If your friend keeps on hurting you, why would you still call them friends? If you give your friend a knife and he stabs you, then the next day you sharpen the knife so he can stab you again. This is not weird to you?
That's a start, I think.
Understanding 'why'
So lets say we stop supporting Israel, would things change and all Middle Eastern countries start embracing us because we don't support them? Whats your definition of support? We are the chief supplier of Arms and weapons to Israel, but we also supply a great deal of other countries with our weapons, the F-16 fighter alone is used by almost 20 countries, including Egypt, Turkey, UAE, Bahrain, and Pakistan, does that make us a supporter of all of their actions? Canada supports Israel, and so does Europe, so just because they don't sell them a great deal of arms, does it make them less guilty?
Israel isn't going any where, and the world is getting smaller economically. Just because its a US built fighter, doesn't mean its not funded by dollars from all over the world. You can't blame us for another countries actions. We don't stand in their way, but nobody else does ether, so why are they not labeled as "supports" and we are?
We take shit for our involvement in conflicts all over the world, but guess what, as an economical super power, we are going to get sucked into conflicts that don't involve us. Iraq was not 100% an American idea, the surrounding oil rich countries want peace in their region to make a profit, and they don't have the military or want to risk upsetting their people by doing it on their own. The problem is that the rest of the world wants to modernize, they want to do business with the west and in Asia, but extremist want to keep them from progress. They know that once these countries gain an economic foothold, they loose control. All of those oil rich OPEC countries are a great example of this. Their quality of life has increased tremendously in the last 50 years, and this angers the religious extremist. Saudi Arabia has always tried to modernize while not violating their cultural and religious traditions. Modernization as a whole is a threat to the extremist, and Israel is a scape goat. So they see Modernization as an "Yankee invention" to over throw their power. Ask any one in those rich OPEC countries if they would turn back the clock to the old ways of living.
So supporting Israel isn't the real reason for the extremist hating America, they use our ties with Israel to drum up support, but the real reason is that we do buisness with their governments, and violate their order of things. Did you know that one of the reasons Osama hated America so much was do to our involvement in the first Gulf war? He wanted to lead his following to fight Saddam and defend Saudi Arabia, the home of Mecca. The Saudi Government turned him down and invited US troops instead, which violates the religious law that no foreign army will set foot in the Holy land of Mecca.
The world is getting smaller, and some people don't want to come to terms with it. They know that when modernization comes to their country, they will loose control. So they attack us and our "allies" in a desperate attempt to hold on to what ever they can. I don't want to impose our ideas and life on anyone, but as long as other countries want our dollar, pound, euro, and the yen, we will be involved in conflicts for the for seeable future.
I'm sorry, but that story by the BBC is twisted that around beyond anything factual. They have no idea as to the details behind that specific attack, all they are doing is giving their skewed opinion as to what that 30 sec video is about.
No civilian is going to casually walk in a mob in the middle of a combat zone like that. And the JTAC had visual contact with those people in question. He calls it in for a specific target, not for the aircraft just to hunt down anyone in the area. If that were true, they would be in jail, the JTAC and the pilot. Please trust me on this.
But what the fuck do I know? I only worked on F-16s for six years, and knew plenty of pilots. I mean thats not nearly the kind of experience that matches up to any one on this board?
...
"But what the fuck do I know? I only worked on F-16s for six years, and knew plenty of pilots. "
Then, you are well aware of the destructive power of their ordinances, right? Look out your kitchen window... what affect would a GBU-31 or Mk.82 have on your neighbor's house? And if you live out in the boonies... imagine your neighbor's house was 13 feet away.
Let's say that your negihbors are bad guys and decide to hold up in their house and fire upon the police... would you leave your house during an open fire fight? You hunker down to avoid getting hit, right?
The police decide to drop a 500 pound or 1,000 pound bomb on the neighbor's to get rid of the bad guys... you'd be okay with the damage to your place... the results of the bomb blast on your mom... your kids... your wife? You would not fault the police... because, Hey... they didn't *mean* to kill your family and destroy your home? They were after the bad guys... and they succeeded. The police chief peels off $10,000.00, hands it to you and says... "Sorry, dude". That's okay with you? Or would you get pissed?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
"But what the fuck do I know? I only worked on F-16s for six years, and knew plenty of pilots. "
Then, you are well aware of the destructive power of their ordinances, right? Look out your kitchen window... what affect would a GBU-31 or Mk.82 have on your neighbor's house? And if you live out in the boonies... imagine your neighbor's house was 13 feet away.
Let's say that your negihbors are bad guys and decide to hold up in their house and fire upon the police... would you leave your house during an open fire fight? You hunker down to avoid getting hit, right?
The police decide to drop a 500 pound or 1,000 pound bomb on the neighbor's to get rid of the bad guys... you'd be okay with the damage to your place... the results of the bomb blast on your mom... your kids... your wife? You would not fault the police... because, Hey... they didn't *mean* to kill your family and destroy your home? They were after the bad guys... and they succeeded. The police chief peels off $10,000.00, hands it to you and says... "Sorry, dude". That's okay with you? Or would you get pissed?
Wow, did you google that?
But to answer your question, no, I would not be very happy.
What it doesn't say in the CCN artical is that they evacuated the area and quarintine the house for hours.
I never said any of these methods are 100% effective, infact most of what we are talking about here is coming up with a better way of dealing with this. Let me ask you a question....how would you deal with a problem like this?
america functions on one purpose: greed ... the loss of civilian life means absolutely nothing to the people that determine foreign policy ... you don't use depleted uranium if you remotely concerned yourself with civilians ... nor do you use cluster bombs ... nor do you NOT sign international treaties that aim to cut the amount of weapons ...
you want to end terrorism? ... it's simple ... stop going over to other people's countries and fucking them over ...
What it doesn't say in the CCN artical is that they evacuated the area and quarintine the house for hours.
I never said any of these methods are 100% effective, infact most of what we are talking about here is coming up with a better way of dealing with this. Let me ask you a question....how would you deal with a problem like this?
...
No... You work on F-16s... I build them.
And All i was trying to point out is that it all depends on where you sit...
In my, hypothetical situation... the police did their job... they killed the bad guys... but, there was a cost, the death of your family and the destruction of your house.
Now... from the police stand point... the mission was a success because the world is now rid of some bad guys. They are sorry for the collateral damage (i.e your family and home), but they compenstated you.. so all is forgiven.
The rest of the community is happy and also feels the police did a great job... the community is now safer because your neighbors are dead. We also think that, while your loss is sad, you just need to deal with it and move on.
...
From where YOU stand... how do you feel about it? And let me add... these are NOT your local police... they come from across the ocean.... from France and do not speak your language.
That's what I was trying to get across. Would you just accept it as the rest of us... after all... your bad guy neighbors are gone. And all it cost you was your family and home... minus $10,000.00.
...
NOW... How would I deal with your scenario?
I would say, "The people were killed by a suicide bomber".
..
But... I would question my leaders... WHY are U.S. soldier still conducting raids? We claim to have 400,000+ Iraqi Security Forces... why not have THEM conduct the raids? Why are WE paying them (yes, WE (taxpayers) are paying Iraqi security forces salaries)?
You can feel free to answer those questions, too... if you'd like to.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
KANDAHAR, AFGHANISTAN — Dozens of Afghan civilians are dead and dozens more are wounded after a series of air strikes aimed at Taliban fighters fell short of their target and exploded in the middle of a wedding party in a mountainous region north of Kandahar city, tribal elders and wedding guests told The Globe and Mail on Tuesday.
Survivors of the attacks, which occurred in the village of Wech Baghtu in the district of Shah Wali Kowt on Monday evening, said the majority of the dead and injured were women – the bombs struck while male and female wedding guests were segregated, as is customary in Kandahar province.
They said the bodies of at least 36 women have been identified, and hundreds more men and women have been injured. Local leaders have yet to establish a firm casualty count because many of the victims remain buried beneath rubble, said Abdul Hakim Khan, a tribal elder from the district.
In interviews at Mirwais Hospital in Kandahar city, where at least 16 male victims and dozens of female victims were being treated Tuesday night, several villagers described the attack. While Mr. Khan corroborated much of the information witnesses gave during a separate interview, it was not possible to independently verify their account or the numbers of dead and injured they gave.
At Least Seven Civilians Among 20 Killed in Latest US Strike in Afghanistan
Just a day after reports emerged that a US air strike against a wedding party in Kandahar earlier in the week killed at least 40 civilians, another US strike in Badghis Province killed at least another 20 people, with at least seven of them reportedly civilians. Provincial Council head Dawlat Osmani said his information suggests that as many as 30 civilians had been killed. The US military also indicated in a statement they are aware of “possible civilian casualties” during the strike, and military spokesman Colonel Greg Julian said they apologize to the families if any of those killed were innocent.
As violence in Afghanistan soars, the US has increasingly relied on air strikes in their conflicts, causing an ever-growing number of civilian casualties. US military spokesman Colonel Julian lauded the air strikes as “devastating” to the Taliban, and accused them of trying to intentionally get civilians killed in hope of stopping the strikes.
The strikes have killed several hundred Afghan civilians this year and continue unbated however, so if this is all some insidious Taliban plot to prevent the US from using air strikes, they appear to have sorely overestimated the US military’s reluctance to kill large numbers of innocent civilians.
---
Do people even care about these lives lost anymore? This has to stop.
Not even one child's life should be taken lightly, but you have to understand something. The nature of what we got ourselves into is not an easy thing to accomplish. This isn't something that can be wrapped up in a couple of months, this isn't something that will guarantee the safety of noncombatants...they are very much apart of this war due to the nature of it. Not by our choosing, the United States did not get into a conflict to kill civilians...that’s not why I joined and that’s not why everyone else joined. You have to trust me on this that the US military goes out of its way to avoid civilian deaths. They do this on purpose, they will gladly expose their own women and children to this danger just to divide us at home. Once again, they don't value life.
I know for a fact that no one in the US military would knowingly call in an air strike on civilians. People go to jail for that sort of thing, there are a set of rules called Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC). The military takes this VERY seriously, and follows them closer than any other army in the world.
The military knows the key to victory in Iraq and Afghanistan are its civilian population, and they are not going to throw that away.
You have a very skewed picture of how this works. I don't blame you because you have no knowledge of it.
And to answer your question, I wouldn't support any army that KNOWINGLY killed civilians on purpose. I would raise the question as to why some one here in the states would expose women and children to combat just to sacrifice them for public support.
how do you explain our use of cluster bombs (which we know harms children when the unexploded bomblets are found and thought to be toys or something) or our use of Depleted Uranium munitions which the UN has said should be banned? we never even clean up the DU shells and just leave them there to poison the population, studies have been done showing an astronomic increase in cancer and birth defects in areas that were shelled in places like Afghanistan, Iraq (now twice), Kosovo....
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Of course not, the bombings in Yugoslavia was the work of NATO.
Like I said, it's not uniquely American at all.
I'm saying that war inevitably leads to casualties. And when you know you will kill innocent people in the process, is it really "unintentional"? To me "indifference" or "recklessness" captures it a lot better.
To me, this is the most honest thing you've said. War is not clean and it is indeed not good. Many innocent people will die because of your (the military's) actions. Fact. That's the way it's always been and that's the way it'll be.
I cannot believe that there are soldiers (or other military people) who actually think they'll be able to fight or win a war without killing a great number of innocent people.
I guess what bothers me most is the denial, or the justification of the horrors they cause. It wouldn't bother me as much if they just said: "Yes, we kill innocent people. We believe the end justifies the means. It's sad they had to die, it's sad they lost their parents, or maybe some limbs but that's the reality of war."
They know from experience bombs are not accurate and that they kill indiscriminately.
For some of my friends "the end" came when "the means" were being deployed.
i think something like 3 of the 4 'smart' bombs dropped in the initial strike on Iraq missed their targets and hit civilian areas, instead
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
So lets say we stop supporting Israel, would things change and all Middle Eastern countries start embracing us because we don't support them? Whats your definition of support? We are the chief supplier of Arms and weapons to Israel, but we also supply a great deal of other countries with our weapons, the F-16 fighter alone is used by almost 20 countries, including Egypt, Turkey, UAE, Bahrain, and Pakistan, does that make us a supporter of all of their actions? Canada supports Israel, and so does Europe, so just because they don't sell them a great deal of arms, does it make them less guilty?
Israel isn't going any where, and the world is getting smaller economically. Just because its a US built fighter, doesn't mean its not funded by dollars from all over the world. You can't blame us for another countries actions. We don't stand in their way, but nobody else does ether, so why are they not labeled as "supports" and we are?
We take shit for our involvement in conflicts all over the world, but guess what, as an economical super power, we are going to get sucked into conflicts that don't involve us. Iraq was not 100% an American idea, the surrounding oil rich countries want peace in their region to make a profit, and they don't have the military or want to risk upsetting their people by doing it on their own. The problem is that the rest of the world wants to modernize, they want to do business with the west and in Asia, but extremist want to keep them from progress. They know that once these countries gain an economic foothold, they loose control. All of those oil rich OPEC countries are a great example of this. Their quality of life has increased tremendously in the last 50 years, and this angers the religious extremist. Saudi Arabia has always tried to modernize while not violating their cultural and religious traditions. Modernization as a whole is a threat to the extremist, and Israel is a scape goat. So they see Modernization as an "Yankee invention" to over throw their power. Ask any one in those rich OPEC countries if they would turn back the clock to the old ways of living.
So supporting Israel isn't the real reason for the extremist hating America, they use our ties with Israel to drum up support, but the real reason is that we do buisness with their governments, and violate their order of things. Did you know that one of the reasons Osama hated America so much was do to our involvement in the first Gulf war? He wanted to lead his following to fight Saddam and defend Saudi Arabia, the home of Mecca. The Saudi Government turned him down and invited US troops instead, which violates the religious law that no foreign army will set foot in the Holy land of Mecca.
The world is getting smaller, and some people don't want to come to terms with it. They know that when modernization comes to their country, they will loose control. So they attack us and our "allies" in a desperate attempt to hold on to what ever they can. I don't want to impose our ideas and life on anyone, but as long as other countries want our dollar, pound, euro, and the yen, we will be involved in conflicts for the for seeable future.
Sorry if my spelling sucks
yes, under clinton we supplied more than 1/2 of the arms to the 3rd world...is that a good thing that we're one of the world's biggest arms dealers or that we help arm and support ppl we KNOW will use them agaisnt innocent ppl?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
The US military stopped vehicles carrying “suspected militants,” sparking a clash which left 14 of them dead. The US used helicopters in the fight and seized numerous ammunition belts and small arms from the vehicles… another major victory over the Taliban insurgency in the restive Khost Province.
Or maybe not. In the wake of the clash, Khost Governor Arsala Jamal confirmed that the 14 men killed were all employed as security guards for a road construction company in the province. US military spokesman Col. Greg Julian defended the killings, claiming the guards had weapons not authorized for security guards and “our guys defended themselves.”
Afghan President Hamid Karzai slammed the US coalition over the incident, saying it was unjustified and would “expand the gap” between the Afghan people and his government.
This is the second time in recent days that private security guards for a road construction company in southern Afghanistan have run afoul of US forces. In late October while trying to fend off a Taliban attack on a road crew US forces called in an air strike which killed 24 guards.
Luke Harding, South Asia correspondent and Matthew Engel in Washington guardian.co.uk,
Tuesday July 2 2002 02.23 BST
American military officials were last night trying to explain one of their worst blunders during the nine-month war in Afghanistan after a US plane mistakenly targeted a house full of wedding guests, killing at least 30 of them.
The bombing happened at 1am yesterday in a village in the rugged and mountainous central region of Oruzgan, 105 miles north of the southern city of Kandahar.
Survivors of the attack said several guests had just fired their Kalashnikovs into the air, as is traditional in Pashtun wedding ceremonies. A US air patrol over-head wrongly concluded it was coming under fire and responded with devastating force.
An AC-130 helicopter gun-ship and B-52 bomber blasted the scene, leaving scores of people dead - among them women and children - and at least 40 injured.
Pentagon officials last night conceded that at least one bomb dropped on the village of Kakarak was "errant". But their initial response was confused and they were unable to explain why the pilots had failed to establish whom they were attacking in a region clearly abandoned by Taliban and al-Qaida fighters several months ago.
"There was no one to help last night," one resident, Abdul Saboor, said. "We managed to transfer some of the wounded to Kandahar in the morning. Some of the foreigners' choppers also came to help."
"There are no Taliban or al-Qaida or Arabs here. These people were all civilians, women and children"
Hospital officials said a number of wounded were being brought to Kandahar, a day's journey away by road. Most of the dead and injured were women and children, they said. A six-year-old girl named Paliko was brought to the hospital still wearing her party dress. She was injured, but villagers said all members of her family were killed.
"Their families are gone. The villagers brought these children and they have no parents. Everyone says that their parents are dead," Mohammed Nadir, a nurse, said.
The incident is deeply embarrassing for the American military, which has so far had little success in fulfilling its initial war aim of hunting down Osama bin Laden. Most senior Taliban figures together with remnants of al-Qaida decamped to Pakistan's tribal regions late last year, intelligence sources believe.
In Washington, the Pentagon yesterday admitted that at least one bomb dropped by western warplanes had missed its target, but it could not confirm claims that members of a wedding party had been killed.
According to local Afghans, 11 members of a wedding party were killed in a similar incident in May in the village of Balkhiel, 30 miles north of the town of Khost.
Luke Harding, South Asia correspondent and Matthew Engel in Washington guardian.co.uk,
Tuesday July 2 2002 02.23 BST
American military officials were last night trying to explain one of their worst blunders during the nine-month war in Afghanistan after a US plane mistakenly targeted a house full of wedding guests, killing at least 30 of them.
The bombing happened at 1am yesterday in a village in the rugged and mountainous central region of Oruzgan, 105 miles north of the southern city of Kandahar.
Survivors of the attack said several guests had just fired their Kalashnikovs into the air, as is traditional in Pashtun wedding ceremonies. A US air patrol over-head wrongly concluded it was coming under fire and responded with devastating force.
An AC-130 helicopter gun-ship and B-52 bomber blasted the scene, leaving scores of people dead - among them women and children - and at least 40 injured.
Pentagon officials last night conceded that at least one bomb dropped on the village of Kakarak was "errant". But their initial response was confused and they were unable to explain why the pilots had failed to establish whom they were attacking in a region clearly abandoned by Taliban and al-Qaida fighters several months ago.
"There was no one to help last night," one resident, Abdul Saboor, said. "We managed to transfer some of the wounded to Kandahar in the morning. Some of the foreigners' choppers also came to help."
"There are no Taliban or al-Qaida or Arabs here. These people were all civilians, women and children"
Hospital officials said a number of wounded were being brought to Kandahar, a day's journey away by road. Most of the dead and injured were women and children, they said. A six-year-old girl named Paliko was brought to the hospital still wearing her party dress. She was injured, but villagers said all members of her family were killed.
"Their families are gone. The villagers brought these children and they have no parents. Everyone says that their parents are dead," Mohammed Nadir, a nurse, said.
The incident is deeply embarrassing for the American military, which has so far had little success in fulfilling its initial war aim of hunting down Osama bin Laden. Most senior Taliban figures together with remnants of al-Qaida decamped to Pakistan's tribal regions late last year, intelligence sources believe.
In Washington, the Pentagon yesterday admitted that at least one bomb dropped by western warplanes had missed its target, but it could not confirm claims that members of a wedding party had been killed.
According to local Afghans, 11 members of a wedding party were killed in a similar incident in May in the village of Balkhiel, 30 miles north of the town of Khost.
Its just not true
It didnt happen
Thats not true
It didnt happen
Typical terrorist propaganda
Our investigation tells a different story
Those accounts are inaccurate
It didnt happen
Its just not true
Thats not what happened
It didnt happen
Typical terrorist propaganda
Our investigation tells a different story
Those accounts are inaccurate
It didnt happen
Its just not true
Thats not what happened
Its just not true
It didnt happen
Thats not true
It didnt happen
Typical terrorist propaganda
Our investigation tells a different story
Those accounts are inaccurate
It didnt happen
Its just not true
Thats not what happened
It didnt happen
Typical terrorist propaganda
Our investigation tells a different story
Those accounts are inaccurate
It didnt happen
Its just not true
Thats not what happened
Afghan President Hamid Karzai used a visit yesterday by a United Nations delegation to hit out at the international forces over their conduct in the war, expressing disbelief that after seven years “a little force like the Taliban” is continuing to flourish.
But today the Afghan President took his complaints to a new level, publicly lamenting that he was unable to shoot down the US planes which have been bombarding Afghan villages. Karzai added that if he had a rock attached to a piece of string, he’d use it to try to down the planes, “but that’s not in my hands.”
Hitting out at the war on terror as “unclear,” Karzai criticized “a war which is unclear what it is for, and what we are doing.” Addressing the media after today’s meeting with NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer he called for a firm timeline for withdrawal, insisting “this war cannot be endless and forever and the Afghan nation cannot burn in a war of which the end is not clear,” and adding “we did not welcome the international community in Afghanistan so that our lives get worse.”
Karzai warned that if a timeline is not set, he feels Afghanistan has “the right to find another solution for peace and security, which is negotiations.” He also accused international troops of having set up a parallel government.
so ... i wonder what the civilian casualty of this "war on terror" amounts to now? Must be over 1 million innocent lives lost.
Well from october-december 2002
---
Thursday, 3 January, 2002, 16:14 GMT
Afghanistan's civilian deaths mount
BBC News
The number of Afghan civilians killed by US bombs has surpassed the death toll of the 11 September attacks, according to a study by an American academic.
Nearly 3,800 Afghans died between 7 October and 7 December, University of New Hampshire Professor Marc Herold said in a research report.
Professor Herold has been gathering data on civilian casualties since 7 October by culling information from news agencies, major newspapers and first hand accounts.
His report, which places the death toll at 3,767, lists the number of casualties, location, type of weapon and source of information.
"In fact the figure I came up with is a very, very conservative estimate," Professor Herold said in a radio interview.
"I think that a much more realistic figure would be around 5,000. You know for Afghanistan, 3,700 to 5,000 is a really substantial number."
Professor Herold said his calculations are based only on deaths reported in the mainstream media, so would not include those in remote areas of Afghanistan.
It also omits those killed indirectly, when air strikes cut off their access to hospitals, food or electricity.
Also exempt are bomb victims who later died of their injuries.
I also read that a study was done by a some respected sources that over 7.000 civilians were killed by US and NATO forces from sept 2007-Present.
Also from old injuries by US and NATO bullets and bombs, blown up water supplies and so on.
Keeping in mind that bombs dont always kill when first dropped, but the injuries people get from being close to them and later suffering from those injuires leading to their deaths.
Thursday, 3 January, 2002, 16:14 GMT
Afghanistan's civilian deaths mount
BBC News
The number of Afghan civilians killed by US bombs has surpassed the death toll of the 11 September attacks, according to a study by an American academic.
Nearly 3,800 Afghans died between 7 October and 7 December, University of New Hampshire Professor Marc Herold said in a research report.
Professor Herold has been gathering data on civilian casualties since 7 October by culling information from news agencies, major newspapers and first hand accounts.
His report, which places the death toll at 3,767, lists the number of casualties, location, type of weapon and source of information.
"In fact the figure I came up with is a very, very conservative estimate," Professor Herold said in a radio interview.
"I think that a much more realistic figure would be around 5,000. You know for Afghanistan, 3,700 to 5,000 is a really substantial number."
Professor Herold said his calculations are based only on deaths reported in the mainstream media, so would not include those in remote areas of Afghanistan.
It also omits those killed indirectly, when air strikes cut off their access to hospitals, food or electricity.
Also exempt are bomb victims who later died of their injuries.
I also read that a study was done by a some respected sources that over 7.000 civilians were killed by US and NATO forces from sept 2007-Present.
Also from old injuries by US and NATO bullets and bombs, blown up water supplies and so on.
Keeping in mind that bombs dont always kill when first dropped, but the injuries people get from being close to them and later suffering from those injuires leading to their deaths.
Not to mention unexploded bomblets from cluster bombs and the exposure to DU rounds
'and I can't imagine why you wouldn't welcome any change, my brother'
'How a culture can forget its plan of yesterday
and you swear it's not a trend
it doesn't matter anyway
there's no need to talk as friends
nothing news everyday
all the kids will eat it up
if it's packaged properly'
Not to mention unexploded bomblets from cluster bombs and the exposure to DU rounds
Of course! and in Iraq the Cancer rate has risen huge amounts due to all the DU that was dropped and white phosphorus.
The long term results will go on for many years, long after these bombs have gone off.
The cluster bombs also will be killing for many years. Even in Lebanon, months later after Israel dropped so many of them. They started going off killing people. Same thing in Afghanistan.
Of course! and in Iraq the Cancer rate has risen huge amounts due to all the DU that was dropped and white phosphorus.
The long term results will go on for many years, long after these bombs have gone off.
The cluster bombs also will be killing for many years. Even in Lebanon, months later after Israel dropped so many of them. They started going off killing people. Same thing in Afghanistan.
Kosovo, too, and we never cleaned up the DU rounds from the 1st gulf war
'and I can't imagine why you wouldn't welcome any change, my brother'
'How a culture can forget its plan of yesterday
and you swear it's not a trend
it doesn't matter anyway
there's no need to talk as friends
nothing news everyday
all the kids will eat it up
if it's packaged properly'
Bookmarks Print By Alistair Lyon, Special Correspondent Alistair Lyon, Special Correspondent – Thu Nov 27, 8:21 am ET
Tire, Lebanon (Reuters) – Israel inadvertently galvanized an international campaign to ban cluster munitions by hastily raining bomblets over south Lebanon before a U.N.-agreed halt to its 2006 war with Hezbollah fighters could take effect.
"It was the massive use of cluster munitions in the last 72 hours of that conflict that outraged the world," Mary Wareham of the New York-based Human Rights Watch group told Reuters.
Norway initiated negotiations on a treaty outlawing cluster munitions which about 100 nations -- but not Israel, the United States, Russia or China -- are due to sign in Oslo next week.
The Beirut government pushed hard for the treaty and Foreign Minister Fawzi Salloukh says he will be in Norway to sign it.
Cluster bombs are still killing and maiming people in south Lebanon, a hilly region of towns and farming villages where nearly all the land is used for crops or grazing
'and I can't imagine why you wouldn't welcome any change, my brother'
'How a culture can forget its plan of yesterday
and you swear it's not a trend
it doesn't matter anyway
there's no need to talk as friends
nothing news everyday
all the kids will eat it up
if it's packaged properly'
Comments
Of course not, the bombings in Yugoslavia was the work of NATO.
Like I said, it's not uniquely American at all.
I'm saying that war inevitably leads to casualties. And when you know you will kill innocent people in the process, is it really "unintentional"? To me "indifference" or "recklessness" captures it a lot better.
To me, this is the most honest thing you've said. War is not clean and it is indeed not good. Many innocent people will die because of your (the military's) actions. Fact. That's the way it's always been and that's the way it'll be.
I cannot believe that there are soldiers (or other military people) who actually think they'll be able to fight or win a war without killing a great number of innocent people.
I guess what bothers me most is the denial, or the justification of the horrors they cause. It wouldn't bother me as much if they just said: "Yes, we kill innocent people. We believe the end justifies the means. It's sad they had to die, it's sad they lost their parents, or maybe some limbs but that's the reality of war."
They know from experience bombs are not accurate and that they kill indiscriminately.
For some of my friends "the end" came when "the means" were being deployed.
naděje umírá poslední
I agree with you on some things here, but I think you loose sight as to what we have got our selves into. The current conflict we are fighting is difficult in the fact that its extremely hard to keep noncombatant out of the situation. The American people asked the military to perform a surgery with a meat cleaver (sorry about the analogy, but its the best I can come up with). No military has ever been successful in these kinds of conflicts, and so far we are doing the best job to date compared to any other military in the past.
What pisses me off is that our people asked the military to do a tough job with out knowing what they are getting themselves into. The military is doing the best they can with what they got, and I'm sorry if people aren't pleased with the result right away. This isn't a cut and dry conflict, its a difficult job that is past the point of no return, you can't stop it now, otherwise the world will be worse off then it already is. Why are people so surprised and shocked that these things happen? What did people expect? Once again, they asked for the military to do what some considered the impossible. Don't take it out on the people who are doing their job to the best of their abilities, people should know this is the reality of war, and by no means is it something people in the military ignore.
The military is an extension of politics, they do what they are told to do to complete the job, if you don't like the results, then don't send them, its that simple. America has got itself into this situation, and needs to see it to the end. I think we are on the same ground when it comes to civilian deaths, I don't want it any more than you, but your complaint about the military's accuracy in a type of conflict that no one has provided a good answer too isn't valid. If you want a solution that can settle both sides of the argument, then please come up with one, until then, don't bitch about the methods, people should have thought it through before the conflict.
While we are having this constructive conversation....this was posted on Yahoo. Please find a better way to deal with it, otherwise deal with the choices we have made. One side of the issue wants to portray us as defenders of the freeworld, and the otherside wants to say that we are a surpressive blood thirsty occupation, but they are both far from the truth. The reality of war is not black or white, and when people send the military, they need to know what they are getting themselves into, don't use them to make a point, they are doing what they train to do. Your complaint is with the government, not the military.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081022/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan
How do you end Terrorism? Like how would you deal with it at this point, do you have any ideas. Because we all agree that kiling people does not solve it, just creates more.
So what should the US do?
Fuck if I know, If I did, I would be winning the Nobel Peace Prize.
'One step in the wrong direction will cause you a thousand years of regret'
But you see, America has no regret to begin with because they fail to see the problems. so they are simply faced with a thousand years of problems wondering 'why?'
What America needs to do is take two steps back before taking one step forward, understand it's history. Look at why it's in the position it's in.
America will have to stop it's one sided support of Israel, they will have to treat the world with a fair hand. They need to concentrate on helping it's own people, spending the many billions in the US building proper roads, schools, helping it's own people.
America has this urge to mess with everyone else, it was America that caused the problems in Iran with it's overthrowing of the democratically elected government of the time. The government of Mohammad Mosaddeq in the 1953 coup. Why does Iran hate America?? Was it not the Americans that's backed the Shah of Iran? The man who caused much grief for the people of Iran.
But do you ever hear these mainstream American politicians speak about any of this? They just ignore the history so how can they ever learn from it.
They are friends with Israel, you hear it daily how America will support Israel no matter what, indeed they support them no matter what, even after Israel was found guilty of false flag operations. What kinds of friends are these?
If your friend keeps on hurting you, why would you still call them friends? If you give your friend a knife and he stabs you, then the next day you sharpen the knife so he can stab you again. This is not weird to you?
That's a start, I think.
Understanding 'why'
So lets say we stop supporting Israel, would things change and all Middle Eastern countries start embracing us because we don't support them? Whats your definition of support? We are the chief supplier of Arms and weapons to Israel, but we also supply a great deal of other countries with our weapons, the F-16 fighter alone is used by almost 20 countries, including Egypt, Turkey, UAE, Bahrain, and Pakistan, does that make us a supporter of all of their actions? Canada supports Israel, and so does Europe, so just because they don't sell them a great deal of arms, does it make them less guilty?
Israel isn't going any where, and the world is getting smaller economically. Just because its a US built fighter, doesn't mean its not funded by dollars from all over the world. You can't blame us for another countries actions. We don't stand in their way, but nobody else does ether, so why are they not labeled as "supports" and we are?
We take shit for our involvement in conflicts all over the world, but guess what, as an economical super power, we are going to get sucked into conflicts that don't involve us. Iraq was not 100% an American idea, the surrounding oil rich countries want peace in their region to make a profit, and they don't have the military or want to risk upsetting their people by doing it on their own. The problem is that the rest of the world wants to modernize, they want to do business with the west and in Asia, but extremist want to keep them from progress. They know that once these countries gain an economic foothold, they loose control. All of those oil rich OPEC countries are a great example of this. Their quality of life has increased tremendously in the last 50 years, and this angers the religious extremist. Saudi Arabia has always tried to modernize while not violating their cultural and religious traditions. Modernization as a whole is a threat to the extremist, and Israel is a scape goat. So they see Modernization as an "Yankee invention" to over throw their power. Ask any one in those rich OPEC countries if they would turn back the clock to the old ways of living.
So supporting Israel isn't the real reason for the extremist hating America, they use our ties with Israel to drum up support, but the real reason is that we do buisness with their governments, and violate their order of things. Did you know that one of the reasons Osama hated America so much was do to our involvement in the first Gulf war? He wanted to lead his following to fight Saddam and defend Saudi Arabia, the home of Mecca. The Saudi Government turned him down and invited US troops instead, which violates the religious law that no foreign army will set foot in the Holy land of Mecca.
The world is getting smaller, and some people don't want to come to terms with it. They know that when modernization comes to their country, they will loose control. So they attack us and our "allies" in a desperate attempt to hold on to what ever they can. I don't want to impose our ideas and life on anyone, but as long as other countries want our dollar, pound, euro, and the yen, we will be involved in conflicts for the for seeable future.
Sorry if my spelling sucks
"But what the fuck do I know? I only worked on F-16s for six years, and knew plenty of pilots. "
Then, you are well aware of the destructive power of their ordinances, right? Look out your kitchen window... what affect would a GBU-31 or Mk.82 have on your neighbor's house? And if you live out in the boonies... imagine your neighbor's house was 13 feet away.
Let's say that your negihbors are bad guys and decide to hold up in their house and fire upon the police... would you leave your house during an open fire fight? You hunker down to avoid getting hit, right?
The police decide to drop a 500 pound or 1,000 pound bomb on the neighbor's to get rid of the bad guys... you'd be okay with the damage to your place... the results of the bomb blast on your mom... your kids... your wife? You would not fault the police... because, Hey... they didn't *mean* to kill your family and destroy your home? They were after the bad guys... and they succeeded. The police chief peels off $10,000.00, hands it to you and says... "Sorry, dude". That's okay with you? Or would you get pissed?
Hail, Hail!!!
Wow, did you google that?
But to answer your question, no, I would not be very happy.
Well heres a story that I googled
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/10/05/iraq.main/
What it doesn't say in the CCN artical is that they evacuated the area and quarintine the house for hours.
I never said any of these methods are 100% effective, infact most of what we are talking about here is coming up with a better way of dealing with this. Let me ask you a question....how would you deal with a problem like this?
you want to end terrorism? ... it's simple ... stop going over to other people's countries and fucking them over ...
No... You work on F-16s... I build them.
And All i was trying to point out is that it all depends on where you sit...
In my, hypothetical situation... the police did their job... they killed the bad guys... but, there was a cost, the death of your family and the destruction of your house.
Now... from the police stand point... the mission was a success because the world is now rid of some bad guys. They are sorry for the collateral damage (i.e your family and home), but they compenstated you.. so all is forgiven.
The rest of the community is happy and also feels the police did a great job... the community is now safer because your neighbors are dead. We also think that, while your loss is sad, you just need to deal with it and move on.
...
From where YOU stand... how do you feel about it? And let me add... these are NOT your local police... they come from across the ocean.... from France and do not speak your language.
That's what I was trying to get across. Would you just accept it as the rest of us... after all... your bad guy neighbors are gone. And all it cost you was your family and home... minus $10,000.00.
...
NOW... How would I deal with your scenario?
I would say, "The people were killed by a suicide bomber".
..
But... I would question my leaders... WHY are U.S. soldier still conducting raids? We claim to have 400,000+ Iraqi Security Forces... why not have THEM conduct the raids? Why are WE paying them (yes, WE (taxpayers) are paying Iraqi security forces salaries)?
You can feel free to answer those questions, too... if you'd like to.
Hail, Hail!!!
From Wednesday's Globe and Mail
November 4, 2008 at 10:39 PM EST
KANDAHAR, AFGHANISTAN — Dozens of Afghan civilians are dead and dozens more are wounded after a series of air strikes aimed at Taliban fighters fell short of their target and exploded in the middle of a wedding party in a mountainous region north of Kandahar city, tribal elders and wedding guests told The Globe and Mail on Tuesday.
Survivors of the attacks, which occurred in the village of Wech Baghtu in the district of Shah Wali Kowt on Monday evening, said the majority of the dead and injured were women – the bombs struck while male and female wedding guests were segregated, as is customary in Kandahar province.
They said the bodies of at least 36 women have been identified, and hundreds more men and women have been injured. Local leaders have yet to establish a firm casualty count because many of the victims remain buried beneath rubble, said Abdul Hakim Khan, a tribal elder from the district.
In interviews at Mirwais Hospital in Kandahar city, where at least 16 male victims and dozens of female victims were being treated Tuesday night, several villagers described the attack. While Mr. Khan corroborated much of the information witnesses gave during a separate interview, it was not possible to independently verify their account or the numbers of dead and injured they gave.
naděje umírá poslední
http://www.truthout.org/110508R
Just a day after reports emerged that a US air strike against a wedding party in Kandahar earlier in the week killed at least 40 civilians, another US strike in Badghis Province killed at least another 20 people, with at least seven of them reportedly civilians. Provincial Council head Dawlat Osmani said his information suggests that as many as 30 civilians had been killed. The US military also indicated in a statement they are aware of “possible civilian casualties” during the strike, and military spokesman Colonel Greg Julian said they apologize to the families if any of those killed were innocent.
As violence in Afghanistan soars, the US has increasingly relied on air strikes in their conflicts, causing an ever-growing number of civilian casualties. US military spokesman Colonel Julian lauded the air strikes as “devastating” to the Taliban, and accused them of trying to intentionally get civilians killed in hope of stopping the strikes.
The strikes have killed several hundred Afghan civilians this year and continue unbated however, so if this is all some insidious Taliban plot to prevent the US from using air strikes, they appear to have sorely overestimated the US military’s reluctance to kill large numbers of innocent civilians.
---
Do people even care about these lives lost anymore? This has to stop.
how do you explain our use of cluster bombs (which we know harms children when the unexploded bomblets are found and thought to be toys or something) or our use of Depleted Uranium munitions which the UN has said should be banned? we never even clean up the DU shells and just leave them there to poison the population, studies have been done showing an astronomic increase in cancer and birth defects in areas that were shelled in places like Afghanistan, Iraq (now twice), Kosovo....
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i think something like 3 of the 4 'smart' bombs dropped in the initial strike on Iraq missed their targets and hit civilian areas, instead
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
yes, under clinton we supplied more than 1/2 of the arms to the 3rd world...is that a good thing that we're one of the world's biggest arms dealers or that we help arm and support ppl we KNOW will use them agaisnt innocent ppl?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Smart bombs dropped by stupid people?
Or maybe not. In the wake of the clash, Khost Governor Arsala Jamal confirmed that the 14 men killed were all employed as security guards for a road construction company in the province. US military spokesman Col. Greg Julian defended the killings, claiming the guards had weapons not authorized for security guards and “our guys defended themselves.”
Afghan President Hamid Karzai slammed the US coalition over the incident, saying it was unjustified and would “expand the gap” between the Afghan people and his government.
This is the second time in recent days that private security guards for a road construction company in southern Afghanistan have run afoul of US forces. In late October while trying to fend off a Taliban attack on a road crew US forces called in an air strike which killed 24 guards.
Tuesday July 2 2002 02.23 BST
American military officials were last night trying to explain one of their worst blunders during the nine-month war in Afghanistan after a US plane mistakenly targeted a house full of wedding guests, killing at least 30 of them.
The bombing happened at 1am yesterday in a village in the rugged and mountainous central region of Oruzgan, 105 miles north of the southern city of Kandahar.
Survivors of the attack said several guests had just fired their Kalashnikovs into the air, as is traditional in Pashtun wedding ceremonies. A US air patrol over-head wrongly concluded it was coming under fire and responded with devastating force.
An AC-130 helicopter gun-ship and B-52 bomber blasted the scene, leaving scores of people dead - among them women and children - and at least 40 injured.
Pentagon officials last night conceded that at least one bomb dropped on the village of Kakarak was "errant". But their initial response was confused and they were unable to explain why the pilots had failed to establish whom they were attacking in a region clearly abandoned by Taliban and al-Qaida fighters several months ago.
"There was no one to help last night," one resident, Abdul Saboor, said. "We managed to transfer some of the wounded to Kandahar in the morning. Some of the foreigners' choppers also came to help."
"There are no Taliban or al-Qaida or Arabs here. These people were all civilians, women and children"
Hospital officials said a number of wounded were being brought to Kandahar, a day's journey away by road. Most of the dead and injured were women and children, they said. A six-year-old girl named Paliko was brought to the hospital still wearing her party dress. She was injured, but villagers said all members of her family were killed.
"Their families are gone. The villagers brought these children and they have no parents. Everyone says that their parents are dead," Mohammed Nadir, a nurse, said.
The incident is deeply embarrassing for the American military, which has so far had little success in fulfilling its initial war aim of hunting down Osama bin Laden. Most senior Taliban figures together with remnants of al-Qaida decamped to Pakistan's tribal regions late last year, intelligence sources believe.
In Washington, the Pentagon yesterday admitted that at least one bomb dropped by western warplanes had missed its target, but it could not confirm claims that members of a wedding party had been killed.
According to local Afghans, 11 members of a wedding party were killed in a similar incident in May in the village of Balkhiel, 30 miles north of the town of Khost.
Its just not true
It didnt happen
Thats not true
It didnt happen
Typical terrorist propaganda
Our investigation tells a different story
Those accounts are inaccurate
It didnt happen
Its just not true
Thats not what happened
It didnt happen
Typical terrorist propaganda
Our investigation tells a different story
Those accounts are inaccurate
It didnt happen
Its just not true
Thats not what happened
Its just not true
It didnt happen
Thats not true
It didnt happen
Typical terrorist propaganda
Our investigation tells a different story
Those accounts are inaccurate
It didnt happen
Its just not true
Thats not what happened
It didnt happen
Typical terrorist propaganda
Our investigation tells a different story
Those accounts are inaccurate
It didnt happen
Its just not true
Thats not what happened
Afghan President Hamid Karzai used a visit yesterday by a United Nations delegation to hit out at the international forces over their conduct in the war, expressing disbelief that after seven years “a little force like the Taliban” is continuing to flourish.
But today the Afghan President took his complaints to a new level, publicly lamenting that he was unable to shoot down the US planes which have been bombarding Afghan villages. Karzai added that if he had a rock attached to a piece of string, he’d use it to try to down the planes, “but that’s not in my hands.”
Hitting out at the war on terror as “unclear,” Karzai criticized “a war which is unclear what it is for, and what we are doing.” Addressing the media after today’s meeting with NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer he called for a firm timeline for withdrawal, insisting “this war cannot be endless and forever and the Afghan nation cannot burn in a war of which the end is not clear,” and adding “we did not welcome the international community in Afghanistan so that our lives get worse.”
Karzai warned that if a timeline is not set, he feels Afghanistan has “the right to find another solution for peace and security, which is negotiations.” He also accused international troops of having set up a parallel government.
Well from october-december 2002
---
Thursday, 3 January, 2002, 16:14 GMT
Afghanistan's civilian deaths mount
BBC News
The number of Afghan civilians killed by US bombs has surpassed the death toll of the 11 September attacks, according to a study by an American academic.
Nearly 3,800 Afghans died between 7 October and 7 December, University of New Hampshire Professor Marc Herold said in a research report.
Professor Herold has been gathering data on civilian casualties since 7 October by culling information from news agencies, major newspapers and first hand accounts.
His report, which places the death toll at 3,767, lists the number of casualties, location, type of weapon and source of information.
"In fact the figure I came up with is a very, very conservative estimate," Professor Herold said in a radio interview.
"I think that a much more realistic figure would be around 5,000. You know for Afghanistan, 3,700 to 5,000 is a really substantial number."
Professor Herold said his calculations are based only on deaths reported in the mainstream media, so would not include those in remote areas of Afghanistan.
It also omits those killed indirectly, when air strikes cut off their access to hospitals, food or electricity.
Also exempt are bomb victims who later died of their injuries.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1740538.stm
I also read that a study was done by a some respected sources that over 7.000 civilians were killed by US and NATO forces from sept 2007-Present.
Also from old injuries by US and NATO bullets and bombs, blown up water supplies and so on.
Keeping in mind that bombs dont always kill when first dropped, but the injuries people get from being close to them and later suffering from those injuires leading to their deaths.
Not to mention unexploded bomblets from cluster bombs and the exposure to DU rounds
'How a culture can forget its plan of yesterday
and you swear it's not a trend
it doesn't matter anyway
there's no need to talk as friends
nothing news everyday
all the kids will eat it up
if it's packaged properly'
Of course! and in Iraq the Cancer rate has risen huge amounts due to all the DU that was dropped and white phosphorus.
The long term results will go on for many years, long after these bombs have gone off.
The cluster bombs also will be killing for many years. Even in Lebanon, months later after Israel dropped so many of them. They started going off killing people. Same thing in Afghanistan.
Kosovo, too, and we never cleaned up the DU rounds from the 1st gulf war
'How a culture can forget its plan of yesterday
and you swear it's not a trend
it doesn't matter anyway
there's no need to talk as friends
nothing news everyday
all the kids will eat it up
if it's packaged properly'
Tire, Lebanon (Reuters) – Israel inadvertently galvanized an international campaign to ban cluster munitions by hastily raining bomblets over south Lebanon before a U.N.-agreed halt to its 2006 war with Hezbollah fighters could take effect.
"It was the massive use of cluster munitions in the last 72 hours of that conflict that outraged the world," Mary Wareham of the New York-based Human Rights Watch group told Reuters.
Norway initiated negotiations on a treaty outlawing cluster munitions which about 100 nations -- but not Israel, the United States, Russia or China -- are due to sign in Oslo next week.
The Beirut government pushed hard for the treaty and Foreign Minister Fawzi Salloukh says he will be in Norway to sign it.
Cluster bombs are still killing and maiming people in south Lebanon, a hilly region of towns and farming villages where nearly all the land is used for crops or grazing
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081127/wl_nm/us_clusterbombs_lebanon_1
Disgusting! The Americans, Zionists, Chinese and Russians are not going to sign it!
On DU....Video is Graphic
have you seen 'Beyond Treason'?
'How a culture can forget its plan of yesterday
and you swear it's not a trend
it doesn't matter anyway
there's no need to talk as friends
nothing news everyday
all the kids will eat it up
if it's packaged properly'