How not to end terrorism-Kill civilians...
MrBrian
Posts: 2,672
The United States has concluded its promised inquiry into August’s air strike in Afghanistan’s Herat Province. Both Afghan and UN investigations concluded that the US strike killed at least 90 civilians, most of them children.
The US hotly disputed the toll, claiming initially that no civilians were killed, then later revising the number up to 5-7 civilians. They also accused Afghan civilians who claimed a higher toll of spreading “outrageous Taliban propaganda.” They were forced to reexamine their findings, however, when video evidence of the toll went public.
The investigator, Brigadier General Michael Callan, determined that many more civilians were killed than officials had previously claimed. He still put the number at only “more than 30,” still quite a bit below the other accounts. The report also insists that the strike was on a “legitimate target” and does not recommend any punishment for those involved.
This claim is likely to cause further tensions with Afghanistan, as President Hamid Karzai has maintained that the air strikes were on a faulty target and based on “total misinformation fed to the coalition forces.” President Karzai has also promised “punishment” for those responsible for the incident. Interior Ministry spokesman Zemery Bashary said he had not seen the report, but that the Afghan government stood behind its original findings.
In fact Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman says he wouldn’t even characterize the initial US report a “wrong,” claiming rather that “sometimes the truth can change.”
It is still unclear how the US military came to its initial conclusions, though the New York Times quotes one military official as saying they were only able to conduct a limited assessment because they feared retaliation from villagers. Why they chose to present incomplete findings as the absolute truth in spite of more thorough investigations claiming such dramatically different numbers is even less clear. At the time, US Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad attributed the difference to “a fog of war.”
Senior military commander General David McKiernan says that he issued a “revised tactical order” after the air strike, though he did concede that most of the rules were already in place at the time and the revised order simply “re-emphasized” them.
http://news.antiwar.com/2008/10/07/us-inquiry-revises-herat-civilian-toll-still-disputes-un-afghan-accounts/
The US hotly disputed the toll, claiming initially that no civilians were killed, then later revising the number up to 5-7 civilians. They also accused Afghan civilians who claimed a higher toll of spreading “outrageous Taliban propaganda.” They were forced to reexamine their findings, however, when video evidence of the toll went public.
The investigator, Brigadier General Michael Callan, determined that many more civilians were killed than officials had previously claimed. He still put the number at only “more than 30,” still quite a bit below the other accounts. The report also insists that the strike was on a “legitimate target” and does not recommend any punishment for those involved.
This claim is likely to cause further tensions with Afghanistan, as President Hamid Karzai has maintained that the air strikes were on a faulty target and based on “total misinformation fed to the coalition forces.” President Karzai has also promised “punishment” for those responsible for the incident. Interior Ministry spokesman Zemery Bashary said he had not seen the report, but that the Afghan government stood behind its original findings.
In fact Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman says he wouldn’t even characterize the initial US report a “wrong,” claiming rather that “sometimes the truth can change.”
It is still unclear how the US military came to its initial conclusions, though the New York Times quotes one military official as saying they were only able to conduct a limited assessment because they feared retaliation from villagers. Why they chose to present incomplete findings as the absolute truth in spite of more thorough investigations claiming such dramatically different numbers is even less clear. At the time, US Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad attributed the difference to “a fog of war.”
Senior military commander General David McKiernan says that he issued a “revised tactical order” after the air strike, though he did concede that most of the rules were already in place at the time and the revised order simply “re-emphasized” them.
http://news.antiwar.com/2008/10/07/us-inquiry-revises-herat-civilian-toll-still-disputes-un-afghan-accounts/
Post edited by Unknown User on
0
Comments
I've heard her say several times on the stump over the past week that it's unpatriotic that Obama stated a year ago "we are airraiding villages" ... but, in actuality, the truth hurts ...
"I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
that's like Adolph saying he was just helping the Jews. pure bullshit.
c'mon ... neither Obama nor McCain want to extinguish a race off the planet.
I'm not for a lot of this military tough talk, but, saying they are like Hitler is really a stretch.
"I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
In the late 90's, according to the UN 11-13 million people die every year from easily curable diseases or starvation. The majority of these people are dying in countries affected by the IMF or the WB.
There's your american holocaust.
I'd love to see these stats and definitive connections to these two orgainizations cited somewhere ... I've heard criticisms of the WB before (exploitation), but, nothing along the lines of it wanting to wipe a race of people off the planet.
And indeed, there are millions of people dying of starvarion and disease around the world, I'm sure most of us would rather put resources towards helping those issues instead of fighting wars ... but, to call it Hitler like agian, is a real stretch.
"I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
---
Case closed,
They don't value life like we do; ask anyone who has been there. They don't share compassion like in the West. I'm not being a racist prick, it’s the truth, ask around to people who have been there. It’s a hard way of life there, and it means nothing for them to use civilians as pawns, just to give ammo to divide us at home.
Please get your facts together.
Why do you live here in America if its so bad? Canada will take you, shit even Mexico.
I couldn't live in this country for more than a second if I honestly thought it was as bad as you say it is.
they don't value life like we do? they are different from us?
That is a racist comment. They are human beings, exactly like you and me.
Its true, they don't value life like the west. Try to convince them of that. Ask any vet who has been there and worked with them and they will tell you the same. Infact, if you have ever been out side North America and Europe you will see that the rest of the world doesn't value life like we do. Its nothing for someone to die in countries that have a low standard of living. They are human, they face reality, if you seen how it works you would understand.
You have a real bad habbit of turning facts around and putting words in people's mouths. You've done it to me, and done to other people on this board. Don't call me a racist.
I think you are forgetting that we have troops in their country. And have just bombed and very violently killed 60 children.
What would you say if they had troops in our country and did the same?
Would you still defend their actions?
And maybe racist isn't the right term here, maybe nationalist is. Either way you're defending terrorism.
Not even one child's life should be taken lightly, but you have to understand something. The nature of what we got ourselves into is not an easy thing to accomplish. This isn't something that can be wrapped up in a couple of months, this isn't something that will guarantee the safety of noncombatants...they are very much apart of this war due to the nature of it. Not by our choosing, the United States did not get into a conflict to kill civilians...that’s not why I joined and that’s not why everyone else joined. You have to trust me on this that the US military goes out of its way to avoid civilian deaths. They do this on purpose, they will gladly expose their own women and children to this danger just to divide us at home. Once again, they don't value life.
I know for a fact that no one in the US military would knowingly call in an air strike on civilians. People go to jail for that sort of thing, there are a set of rules called Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC). The military takes this VERY seriously, and follows them closer than any other army in the world.
The military knows the key to victory in Iraq and Afghanistan are its civilian population, and they are not going to throw that away.
You have a very skewed picture of how this works. I don't blame you because you have no knowledge of it.
And to answer your question, I wouldn't support any army that KNOWINGLY killed civilians on purpose. I would raise the question as to why some one here in the states would expose women and children to combat just to sacrifice them for public support.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOAC
I got to get to bed, you can call me names later
Have a good night
They don't value life like we do? :mad:
do you honestly think that when you watch an Afghan father holding a shredded infant, that he is feeling any less despair than you or I would? If you're going to generalize about people's attitude toward death as some kind of behavioural subculture in Afghanistan, you should look at why. Look at what has happened in that country in the last 30 years alone!
If there is any truth to what you're saying about their value of life, I'm sure much of it has to do with a turn to faith to help with their fear of getting their fucking asses 'close air supported'....not to mention that many are likely numb and indoctrinated to the violence that the US, Russia, the Taliban, and the whole 'coalition of the willing' has inflicted upon them. much the same as how you have been indoctrinated to defend this kind of shit.
They're not the only ones saying that checkout the signiture. GWB has been saying for a long time now.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
So America knows that these 'terrorists' hide with fams and innocents, so tell me, if the American army knows this, and does everything it can to avoid killing innocents (as you/they say), why call in air strikes like these for starters? Because at the end of the day, America does not care about those lives. and again just incase you missed the point, yes America does not have a Doctrine of "go kill innocents"...But they don't care if they do.
America cares who it's killing? I'm sorry, but you don't carpet bomb or drop giant bombs and say that they/you do everything you can to prevent the loss of innocent life.
In Iraq, America (these are facts) dropped many chemicals,DU and so on. How many innocent lives have these killed? Even after the bomb was dropped. Years later.
Nevertheless you are correct when you say that America did not get into this war to kill civilians, America got into this war for a list of Other reasons. None fair or just.
The war against terrorism has done nothing but create more terrorism and terrorists.
and you talk about rules? When does America follow rules? They break rules,laws every single day. America Is in no position to do anything but fix it's own problems in it's own country. Which funny enough they can't do, because they have no money. But they have bombs, and bombs are what they use to try and fix other countries...hmmmm
Perhaps America needs to bomb itself?
I'm sure there are radicals there that don't care about exposing civilians to the bombs, but you are painting with WAY too broad a stroke.
I think people know all about indiscrimminate bombing, so calling our view skewed because we don't understand the technicalities that make it difficult to kill people properly is really disappointing....isn't it obvious that the resistance you're meeting here is from people against the war in general?
You didn't just challenge us to find examples of the US knowingly killing civilians, did you?
good points. I have to respond though, can't let it slide.
During Vietnam the CIA targeted the VC's "will" as a legitimate miltary target. That meant directly bombing and killing women and children in an effort to affect the moral of the men fighting the war. And the Pheonix program? holy shit. Terrorism doesn't begin to describe the torture these people were subjected too. The "will" of the combatants was the target.
This is the most advanced military machine in the history of warfare, the United States military. They know how to win wars. Part of that is affecting the moral of enemy combatants. Kill their wife and children, they may not be so willing to fight-what do they have left to fight for really? They did it during the second invasion of Iraq, they bombed Saddam's family's bunkers, killing his family, little kids even. That's modern warfare. They take away the will to fight, as a tactic.
And actually that is the reason vietnam was lost, becasue the will to fight among the indigenous population could not be swayed. In a military sense, and as far as stated goals went, it was a success, because the landscape was so completely wasted communism wasn't allowed to prosper, even if it was given a toehold. They simply had nothing to work with after the US military machine laid waste to their country.
And I believe something similar is happening in Afghanistan, there have been too many "accidents" and "collateral damage" for them to be coincidences. These people are being terrorized, and we are being told we are fighting terrorism. Its straight George Orwell shit, straight from 1984.
you don't accidentally kill 60 little kids, and if you do you sure as hell better have a better reason than 'these people don't value life like we do'. That's bullshit. And so are these bullshit wars. The best way to fight terrorism is to stop participating in it.
Being awakened in the middle of the night by men in full military and a m16 pointed at you and your figurehead is taken for no apparent reason is terriorism at it's best. Staying out of these wars is the best way to avoid innocent civilians from getting killed and stop this madness that WE are the ones that is GOOD in the world according to George W Bush.
Peace
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
I don't think many of these wars were ever meant to be won, just prolonged.
Also, if an invading country killed my kids, even as opposed to war as I am, I would be much more likely to take up arms than if I was only trying to protect my family. This is exactly how these conflicts are self-perpetuating, esp in a 'war on terror', as the thread title suggests....
But I tend to agree with you here...if they killed my family I would do everything in my power to make them pay. Thing is....Fuck. They would rape wives in front of soldiers, burn their husbands alive. They would drop pregnant women out of helicopters into villages where the men who were fighting lived. They would torture the familes, terrible torture, imagine your worst and they did it. they would have cvhildren kill their parents. they would do the worst thing imaginable. They did repeatedly. Will was the target. And I don't know man, but if I was forced to see my parents tortured in front of me I might think twice about resisting.
Its terrible. And I can't believe these things happened and I can't believe I have to repeat them. And I can't believe I am part of a nation that participates in things like this. It sickens me every single day.
I'm just telling you what people very close to me said this from their years of experience there. I know them very well and can tell you that they are compassionate people that want to do the right thing. And this is just their opinion on what they have seen while being there. As for the military standpoint of things, you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. All you get fed is what the news wants to tell you, and what you friends pass along in conversation.
This isn't going away, and putting our heads in the sand to avoid a conflict will just repeat history. I know most of you want the world to get along and throw down or weapons....well once again, if you left the west you can see that the rest of the world has no intention of peace anytime soon. Leaving Iraq and Afghanistan will lead to an even horrible situation where we will be forced to comeback a couple of years later. They have been fight among themselves for hundreds of years, never mind the British, Russians, and now us. When we invaded the country back in 01, the "Northern Alliance" was too busy fighting each other to really be effective in fighting the Taliban.
Using their own people like this is how they fight, they know it will divide us at home. The VC did it in Vietnam, and it lead to our eventual with draw. I don't want to kill civilians and neither does anyone I have worked with. You have been brain washed to think we are all baby killers with some kind of agenda, and frankly its easy to blame us because you're scared to think that the rest of the world doesn't share your vision, and your reality is in question when no one wants to put down their weapons any time soon. Go to these places offering peace and tell me if you will be greeted with open arms? Why do they, not just in the Middle East, do people kill their own in the name of religion or some brutal dictator? Why do tribes in Africa go around hacking off limbs of their own countrymen? The reality is that most of the world is savage, and they don't share a western vision, and you can't make them assimilate, and you sure can't make them stop. For some, its apart of their culture.
I know most of you hate our government and the military for whats happen, but you need some one to blame being that you have no concept of how this works.
But what do I know, I hope I'm wrong; I like you vision on things a lot more than mine
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I too come from a country where innocents were used as pawns on BOTH sides... and yet my country's western. I believe in war times.. when your country's under attack... when you've seen despicable things that commy described and other stuff... when you've seen loved ones treated like animals... well I believe common sense goes out the window. Do NOT use your 'close friends' stories of how people behave when they're cornered as a description of how they value life in general! :cool: cos the invading side has ALREADY devalued life!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
NATO forces launched an air strike in Nad Ali District, Helmand Province, early this afternoon, killing a reported 25 civilians. The number of dead were reported by local residents, who took some of the bodies to Lashkar Gah to complain to the governor about the killings. NATO said it was “aware of an incident,” but declined to confirm any civilian casualties as of yet.
If confirmed, this would be the largest number of Afghan civilians killed in a single NATO attack since late August’s infamous Herat strike, in which US forces killed at least 90 civilians in an attack based on faulty intelligence
A BBC reporter in the provincial capital Lashkar Gah saw the bodies - three women and the rest children - ranging in age from six months to 15.
The families brought the bodies from their village in the Nad Ali district, where they say the air strike occurred.
A further nine bodies are said to be trapped under destroyed buildings.
Nato-led forces say they are investigating the incident in an area where the British military are known to operate.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7674435.stm
I'm wondering... if they don't 'value life' as much as we do... like you say they don't... then... why did they surrender en masse during the war? If they didn't care about their life... then, why didn't they charge our advancing armoured divisions? I mean, wouldn't that have been the best way to waste their lives?
And i'm not sure about that 'Ask any Vet' thing. I work with literally hundreds of veterans and they tell me that the Iraqis they've run across just want peace. They are sick of the killing.
So... is it just the Afghanis that don't value life... or all Arabs/Persians?
Hail, Hail!!!
Saying arabs don't value life is not a totally correct statement, but when you hear about suicide bombers, honor killings, and beheading people it makes you wonder.
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
You should check into and be more concerned about our values of LIFE in America.
Many US Cities Have Had Murder Rates Higher Than Iraq's 2006 'Violent Death' Rate
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Well.. how about we give them uniforms and jets and tanks and warships to make it a 'Fair Fight', so they don't resort to Neolithic means of warfare... would that be better?
And i don't know about 'Honor Killings'... but beheading is punishment... the same as the Death Penalty, here. you may believe that a Lethal Injection is more humane than a beheading... but, don't both end up the same? (And... beheading is not just a terrorist ploy... it is used as a form of Capital Punishment in some countries, too... along with that Biblical favorite... stoning to death).
Hail, Hail!!!
So Nick Berg's beheading was legit? If you remeber Iraq did start out with Russian tanks and uniforms.
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II