Saying arabs don't value life is not a totally correct statement, but when you hear about suicide bombers, honor killings, and beheading people it makes you wonder.
It would make only an idiot wonder.
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Serioulsy, these people don't strap bombs to their chests because they don't value life, they do it because they have no other way's to fight, they are doing it to stop more killings and what are you talking about beheadings? They don't have beheading parties, what do you think?..they invite a bunch of friends over, eat a little hummus and start beheading eachother? I mean if they did that then yes I would say that they don't value life.
You need to understand the reasons, the cause for these actions. what would make a man take his own life.
People going on that the west values life more, what bs, the american governments drops 5 ton bombs on a village in a 3rd world country. While sitting safe at home Americans ignore it and watch deal or no deal eating big macs...yeah, real value for life.
So Nick Berg's beheading was legit? If you remeber Iraq did start out with Russian tanks and uniforms.
...
Maybe by their warped courts... who knows. How would you feel if there was a foriegn Army on American soil? Would their being here be a crime in your eyes?
And so what about the Russian tanks? I get sick about this whole "They don't fight fair" stuff. If all you had was rocks against tanks... you'd figure something out.
A True Patriot would strap a bomb on himself and kill enemy invaders along with himself... for his country... for his people... right? I don't know about you, but if the situation was reversed... and they were over here... your're damned right I'd be out there trying to kill them.
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Serioulsy, these people don't strap bombs to their chests because they don't value life, they do it because they have no other way's to fight, they are doing it to stop more killings and what are you talking about beheadings? They don't have beheading parties, what do you think?..they invite a bunch of friends over, eat a little hummus and start beheading eachother? I mean if they did that then yes I would say that they don't value life.
You need to understand the reasons, the cause for these actions. what would make a man take his own life.
People going on that the west values life more, what bs, the american governments drops 5 ton bombs on a village in a 3rd world country. While sitting safe at home Americans ignore it and watch deal or no deal eating big macs...yeah, real value for life.
Have you been to Iraq? Have you spoken with any of the Iraqi people? Well let me fill you in. Saddam was a terrible dictator. These people were thanking us. Shaking our hands and telling us how great it was to get rid of Saddam. These radicals kill themselves not to fight evenly. They do it because they are radical muslims that think killing westerners is a holy thing to do. By the way to answer your other post Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was a syrian that beheaded a Jewish American trying to fix the electricity grid in Iraq not a court.
Edit: I do not believe all Muslims are bad. Every culture has it bad apples, the radicals are the muslims bad apple.
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Have you been to Iraq? Have you spoken with any of the Iraqi people? Well let me fill you in. Saddam was a terrible dictator. These people were thanking us. Shaking our hands and telling us how great it was to get rid of Saddam. These radicals kill themselves not to fight evenly. They do it because they are radical muslims that think killing westerners is a holy thing to do. By the way to answer your other post Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was a syrian that beheaded a Jewish American trying to fix the electricity grid in Iraq
Saying the US liberated Iraq is giving legitimacy to the claim that Hitler liberated Poland at the start of WWII. Its a pretext, nothing more.
Have you been to Iraq? Have you spoken with any of the Iraqi people? Well let me fill you in. Saddam was a terrible dictator. These people were thanking us. Shaking our hands and telling us how great it was to get rid of Saddam. These radicals kill themselves not to fight evenly. They do it because they are radical muslims that think killing westerners is a holy thing to do. By the way to answer your other post Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was a syrian that beheaded a Jewish American trying to fix the electricity grid in Iraq not a court.
Edit: I do not believe all Muslims are bad. Every culture has it bad apples, the radicals are the muslims bad apple.
No, but I have spoken to Iraqis. I have also been to Afghanistan during the taliban rule. btw, a large number of Iraqis are now saying (as reported by many news agencies) that life was better under the rule of saddam.
also bergs own father does not blame them for the death of his son, on top of that many stories came around after that you need to look into about that beheading.
Also like it's been posted, it was America that gave saddam power. Like they gave the shah of Iran power and Augusto José Ramón Pinochet power. Both backed by America and both brutal dictators.
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Look, I know none of you agree with me and thats fine. But I can tell you this much, the rest of the world doesn't value life the way we do here in the west. Its not meant to be racist, its not meant to say they are any less valuable as people. You have to understand that we live a privileged life here in North America and Europe. Anyone who has been to parts of the world that the quality of life is poor will see this. Most of the world has it really hard compared to us, and death is much more of a daily reality then it is for us, and I'm just talking about places that are not at conflict.
I'm just telling you what people very close to me said this from their years of experience there. I know them very well and can tell you that they are compassionate people that want to do the right thing. And this is just their opinion on what they have seen while being there. As for the military standpoint of things, you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. All you get fed is what the news wants to tell you, and what you friends pass along in conversation.
This isn't going away, and putting our heads in the sand to avoid a conflict will just repeat history. I know most of you want the world to get along and throw down or weapons....well once again, if you left the west you can see that the rest of the world has no intention of peace anytime soon. Leaving Iraq and Afghanistan will lead to an even horrible situation where we will be forced to comeback a couple of years later. They have been fight among themselves for hundreds of years, never mind the British, Russians, and now us. When we invaded the country back in 01, the "Northern Alliance" was too busy fighting each other to really be effective in fighting the Taliban.
Using their own people like this is how they fight, they know it will divide us at home. The VC did it in Vietnam, and it lead to our eventual with draw. I don't want to kill civilians and neither does anyone I have worked with. You have been brain washed to think we are all baby killers with some kind of agenda, and frankly its easy to blame us because you're scared to think that the rest of the world doesn't share your vision, and your reality is in question when no one wants to put down their weapons any time soon. Go to these places offering peace and tell me if you will be greeted with open arms? Why do they, not just in the Middle East, do people kill their own in the name of religion or some brutal dictator? Why do tribes in Africa go around hacking off limbs of their own countrymen? The reality is that most of the world is savage, and they don't share a western vision, and you can't make them assimilate, and you sure can't make them stop. For some, its apart of their culture.
I know most of you hate our government and the military for whats happen, but you need some one to blame being that you have no concept of how this works.
But what do I know, I hope I'm wrong; I like you vision on things a lot more than mine
This video shows how our US military sometimes value innocent civilians...Iraq Bomb Strike please take a look.
Peace
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Around 190,000 people have streamed into the North-West Frontier Province from the neighbouring tribal territory of Bajaur, where, at the start of August, the Pakistani military launched perhaps its most serious offensive against Taliban extremists since Sept. 11, 2001."
many of these people will be spending the winter in tents.
refugees are too often overlooked when it comes to war.
I think the US definitely targets civilians. You read about it in the papers weekly or even daily. It's the same in every war. So you'd think they'd know by now that they are murdering people by their actions. But they don't, they continue and innocent people continue to die.
I'd like to see how you'd feel about this if was happening in the US. Ah, yes... the Western world values life more. Total bullshit buddy, I know plenty of people who have been outside the Western world, who lived there or still live there - several members of my family, for example. They all greatly disagree with this.
If police fought crime as recklessly as the military fights "terrorism" and their victims were innocent American families... I doubt excuses as "no one in the police wants to kill innocent peope" will do, or "you don't understand the nature of things."
I do understand. I understand that if your military methods and tactics repeatedly kill innocent people, there is something wrong with them. Saying it's "unintentional" doesn't excuse those murders.
I think the US definitely targets civilians. You read about it in the papers weekly or even daily. It's the same in every war. So you'd think they'd know by now that they are murdering people by their actions. But they don't, they continue and innocent people continue to die.
I'd like to see how you'd feel about this if was happening in the US. Ah, yes... the Western world values life more. Total bullshit buddy, I know plenty of people who have been outside the Western world, who lived there or still live there - several members of my family, for example. They all greatly disagree with this.
If police fought crime as recklessly as the military fights "terrorism" and their victims were innocent American families... I doubt excuses as "no one in the police wants to kill innocent peope" will do, or "you don't understand the nature of things."
I do understand. I understand that if your military methods and tactics repeatedly kill innocent people, there is something wrong with them. Saying it's "unintentional" doesn't excuse those murders.
Well good thing its just your opinion and not fact.
I was there and in my year we did not target one civilan. Like the old saying goes you do not want to stand behind the troops then go ahead and stand in front of them.
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I was there and in my year we did not target one civilan. Like the old saying goes you do not want to stand behind the troops then go ahead and stand in front of them.
Don't tell people that here, they won't believe you. They already made up their minds based on nothing factual.
This video shows how our US military sometimes value innocent civilians...Iraq Bomb Strike please take a look.
Peace
I'm sorry, but that story by the BBC is twisted that around beyond anything factual. They have no idea as to the details behind that specific attack, all they are doing is giving their skewed opinion as to what that 30 sec video is about.
No civilian is going to casually walk in a mob in the middle of a combat zone like that. And the JTAC had visual contact with those people in question. He calls it in for a specific target, not for the aircraft just to hunt down anyone in the area. If that were true, they would be in jail, the JTAC and the pilot. Please trust me on this.
But what the fuck do I know? I only worked on F-16s for six years, and knew plenty of pilots. I mean thats not nearly the kind of experience that matches up to any one on this board?
I'm sorry, but that story by the BBC is twisted that around beyond anything factual. They have no idea as to the details behind that specific attack, all they are doing is giving their skewed opinion as to what that 30 sec video is about.
No civilian is going to casually walk in a mob in the middle of a combat zone like that. And the JTAC had visual contact with those people in question. He calls it in for a specific target, not for the aircraft just to hunt down anyone in the area. If that were true, they would be in jail, the JTAC and the pilot. Please trust me on this.
But what the fuck do I know? I only worked on F-16s for six years, and knew plenty of pilots. I mean thats not nearly the kind of experience that matches up to any one on this board?
Six years of training, indoctrination, and normalization.
If anyone from a group whose actions you disagreed with, even considered criminal, told you that they were innocent, or would be in jail, would you 'trust them on it'? please.
I did, please show me something factual that the military is knowingly killing civilians.
Nice edit....placed the question in the present tense, didn't you?
I already know your answer to anything current I bring up. Either, "it was an accident, prove it wasn't", OR "that/those soldier(s) acted on his/her/their own, it was not a US military decision".
Again, you'll be asking us to trust you that the military will police their own...while your bosses and colleagues engage in the violation of the treaties that are supposed to keep war 'honourable'.
Think about it...every mass bombing targets civilians. They didn't knowlingly bomb civilians in the Shock and Awe campaign? please. They carpet bombed a city. Hiroshima? Nagasaki? oops! A quarter million dead.
I did, please show me something factual that the military is knowingly killing civilians.
When you drop a giant bomb on a village, knowing that it's probably going to kill innocent people. perhaps just to get 1 'bad' guy. The only logical conclusion one can come to is that the US does not care if it kills those innocent people to begin with.
Six years of training, indoctrination, and normalization.
If anyone from a group whose actions you disagreed with, even considered criminal, told you that they were innocent, or would be in jail, would you 'trust them on it'? please.
Nice edit....placed the question in the present tense, didn't you?
I already know your answer to anything current I bring up. Either, "it was an accident, prove it wasn't", OR "that/those soldier(s) acted on his/her/their own, it was not a US military decision".
Again, you'll be asking us to trust you that the military will police their own...while your bosses and colleagues engage in the violation of the treaties that are supposed to keep war 'honourable'.
Think about it...every mass bombing targets civilians. They didn't knowlingly bomb civilians in the Shock and Awe campaign? please. They carpet bombed a city. Hiroshima? Nagasaki? oops! A quarter million dead.
Yep, mindless zombie here, just doing the bidding of my evil Republican masters. Well I don't know what say, my grammer sucks, sorry for my past/present/future errors.
I guess we have all the answers we need here. The ten minutes a day you spend reading the news and all the conversations with your friends automatically make you some sort of subject matter on this issue? You're no different the the far right. But what can I say, if you want to honesly believe that people in the military go out of their way to kill civilians, then fine. I won't loose sleep over the fact that I did my job to the best of my ability for what I think is right. Its not like you or anyone on this board represent the majority of America, so keep spewing your bullshit, if I'm the only one to hear it then thats fine with me.
I'm just scared your ignorance will spread, just like the same fear tactic the far right uses, instead of "terrorist" out to get us, it the "government" and all of their blood thirsty troops are out to kill children.
When you drop a giant bomb on a village, knowing that it's probably going to kill innocent people. perhaps just to get 1 'bad' guy. The only logical conclusion one can come to is that the US does not care if it kills those innocent people to begin with.
Come up with a better answer, some thing besides IGNORING THE PROBLEM. If it can be fixed with out killing a soul, then I'm all ears.
Yep, mindless zombie here, just doing the bidding of my evil Republican masters. Well I don't know what say, my grammer sucks, sorry for my past/present/future errors.
I guess we have all the answers we need here. The ten minutes a day you spend reading the news and all the conversations with your friends automatically make you some sort of subject matter on this issue? You're no different the the far right. But what can I say, if you want to honesly believe that people in the military go out of their way to kill civilians, then fine. I won't loose sleep over the fact that I did my job to the best of my ability for what I think is right. Its not like you or anyone on this board represent the majority of America, so keep spewing your bullshit, if I'm the only one to hear it then thats fine with me.
I'm just scared your ignorance will spread, just like the same fear tactic the far right uses, instead of "terrorist" out to get us, it the "government" and all of their blood thirsty troops are out to kill children.
Man, I don't think you're a bad person. I know nothing about you. I don't judge all of the American military as ignorant, or brainwashed. I was frustrated and my tone reflected it...
But I don't 'support the troops', because I don't agree with their actions. I personally think the military should have long ago stood up to the government. Are you guys not supposed to have allegience to the constitution above all else? The lack of protest from the military over the Iraq wars' constitutional violations undermined what was left of US military credibility...stooping to torture sunk it completely. Why should anyone assume that the military will police their own when they disobey every rule on the books?
btw, I'm not American, I'm Canadian. You also seem to think I'm a liberal, which I'm not. And no, I don't think my country is much different, because we, like the US military, have not stood up against the wars our leaders are waging. We have soldiers killing innocent people in Afghanistan.....But your assumption shows the insular thinking that makes the international community wary of your countries intentions..... you don't acknowledge that it is not just the opinion of the American people that the US should be considering when bombing other countries...actually, the fact that you are not recognizing this brings the thread full circle.
(and, I brought up your edit because it would have been very easy to bring up past events - like those in Japan - as answers to your challenge, not to point out grammar mistakes)
Serioulsy, these people don't strap bombs to their chests because they don't value life, they do it because they have no other way's to fight, they are doing it to stop more killings
And they do it because they hate us. Remember the 2002 Bali Bombings? I was still living in Australia when 88 Aussies lost their lives with 114 other people. Our crime as they saw it? Being Allies with the USA. They deliberately targeted us at a place where they knew our people holidayed. Bail is always heavily populated with Australian Tourists.
The three Bali Bombers are currently on death row awaiting execution and this is a transcript of what they had to say. It's chilling. I've bolded the part that supports what you say how they think think by doing this, they are stopping more killings.
MARK COLVIN: Indonesia, with the Muslim fasting month of Ramadan over today, the guessing game has begun again over the execution date of the Bali bombers.
Previous statements made by Indonesia's Attorney-General's office suggest they'll be shot by firing squad before this year is over.
The doors of the bombers' prison in Central Java were thrown open to the media today as part of Idul Fitri celebrations.
It was there that our Indonesia correspondent Geoff Thompson came face to face with Amrozi, Imam Samudra and Ali Ghufron also known as Mukhlas.
(Sound of prayers over speaker system)
GEOFF THOMPSON: Prayers fill the courtyard of Nusakambangan and as the assembled media, watch through thick glass the dramatically black and white head-scarfed image of Imam Samudra is eventually filtered from among the many faces in the crowd.
Soon we are let in to the courtyard itself, and even before the ceremony is over to mark the end of Ramadan and the beginning of Idul Fitri, Samudra has bustled his way over to be closer to the waiting media to say that even as his execution date approaches he still has no regrets, and no feelings at all for the unbelievers he calls "kaffirs".
GEOFF THOMPSON: Any message for Australia as your death approaches?
IMAM SAMUDRA: For who, for who?
GEOFF THOMPSON: For Australia.
IMAM SAMUDRA: For Australia? I said to him to Australia, they cannot stop Mujahideen movement. If they want to stop Mujahideen and if they want to stop they are better off (to stop) the sun and moon, okay.
GEOFF THOMPSON: What do you say to the hundreds of people you helped kill?
IMAM SAMUDRA: Which people, which people you mean?
GEOFF THOMPSON: The people killed in Bali in 2002.
IMAM SAMUDRA: For Muslim, I already said in the past year, last year that (begins to speak in Indonesian) For Muslim only, but for kaffir, for unbeliever - it is destiny. But kaffir, I no say sorry for kaffir. For Muslim, I say sorry for them.
GEOFF THOMPSON: So, not sorry, for the Australians who died?
IMAM SAMUDRA: No, no, no. For Australia I never sorry, but for Muslim I am very, very sorry for him, alright? It is accidental.
GEOFF THOMPSON: For men who have long said they are willing to die as martyrs, the bombers have attempted every possible legal challenge. The latest is a Constitutional Court challenge claiming that death by firing squad is torture. With this perhaps their last celebration of the end of the Ramadan month, I asked a long-haired and light-blue robed Amrozi, whether he felt any regrets towards the Australians he killed.
(Amrozi speaking)
"No", he said in a tone of threatening jest "If I have a chance I will kill more, but not you because you are a journalist".
(To Amrozi) How do you feel about dying? You will be shot soon through the heart and it may take seven minutes to die. How do you feel about that?
(Amrozi speaking)
"I don't feel that I will be executed. I don't think about it". Amrozi says.
(Sound of Amrozi laughing)
(To Amrozi) Do you think you'll be killed this year?
(Amrozi speaking)
"No, no, no, I never think about it". Amrozi replies.
But Father Charlie Burrows at a nearby Cilacap Catholic church has been thinking about it a lot and appeared as a witness in a Constitutional Court to support the bombers claims that the death by firing squad is torture. His evidence is compelling because it was he who eye-witnessed the executions of two Nigerian drug runners on Nusakambangan Island a few months ago.
CHARLIE BURROWS: Well after they were shot they were, they were moaning for about seven minutes and real moaning, moaning in pain, they were...
(Sound of Father Burrows moaning)
And everybody at that stage was really, felt really bad yeah, because they went down for so long.
GEOFF THOMPSON: The bombers said they would rather be beheaded than shot because it was more humane but today Amrozi's brother, Mukhlas was as defiant as ever.
(Ali Ghufron speaking)
"Kill one Mukhlas and there will be many more" he said.
Ali Ghufron then went on to praise God for the recent suicide bombing at the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad and warned that once he is executed, his executors will be hunted down by his Mujahideen friends around the world. Asked what he would now say to the family to the 88 Australians who died in 2002's Bali bombings, Mukhlas said "it's all decided by Allah and they should say sorry to God".
But many Australians think you're just a common murderer.
(Ali Ghufron speaking)
"All the people say that I'm a murderer but the thing is we kill the murderer to make peace in the world. Why did we kill Australians? Because they fight against the Mujahideen", Mukhlas said.
In Nusakambangan prison, this is Geoff Thompson for PM.
Come up with a better answer, some thing besides IGNORING THE PROBLEM. If it can be fixed with out killing a soul, then I'm all ears.
You first have to define the problem. Which means LISTENING to the other side, not bombing them into submission. Find out their side of the conflict, their reason for resorting to unconventional warfare (terrorism?), then do your best to take away those causes. Be proactive, not reactionary. But as the world's biggest prison state, it's obvious much of your country does not support that theory, on many levels. it seems every time someone with a different opinion speaks, they are anti-american, or fanatics that hate freedom, or don't value life. They say, "we want your occupation of our land to end", we say, "they hate freedom" or 'we support our allies'. They say, "your corporations are robbing us of our resources", we tell them "it's democracy and capitalism, you're better off."
If an actual effort was made to find solutions, instead of enforcing Western systems and culture, I would bet that all you'd be left with is a few religious extremists, and a lot less innocent lives lost.
pj_gurl...is this a 'for us or against us' kinda thing? If we don't support the military, we must support them? You're ignoring the fact that they hate you because of your military actions. The mentality of both sides is so fucking kindergarten it's unreal...
Someone has to man up and put down their guns first, right?
Man, I don't think you're a bad person. I know nothing about you. I don't judge all of the American military as ignorant, or brainwashed. I was frustrated and my tone reflected it...
But I don't 'support the troops', because I don't agree with their actions. I personally think the military should have long ago stood up to the government. Are you guys not supposed to have allegience to the constitution above all else? The lack of protest from the military over the Iraq wars' constitutional violations undermined what was left of US military credibility...stooping to torture sunk it completely. Why should anyone assume that the military will police their own when they disobey every rule on the books?
btw, I'm not American, I'm Canadian. You also seem to think I'm a liberal, which I'm not. And no, I don't think my country is much different, because we, like the US military, have not stood up against the wars our leaders are waging. We have soldiers killing innocent people in Afghanistan.....But your assumption shows the insular thinking that makes the international community wary of your countries intentions..... you don't acknowledge that it is not just the opinion of the American people that the US should be considering when bombing other countries...actually, the fact that you are not recognizing this brings the thread full circle.
(and, I brought up your edit because it would have been very easy to bring up past events - like those in Japan - as answers to your challenge, not to point out grammar mistakes)
Look, a common misconception people have about the military is that they should stand up to their government. This is the last quality in a professional military you want to have. Discipline and following orders are the fine line between a military and a band of unruly armed crowd. This is concept that until you join the military, you won't understand.
And I fully recognize the fact that the world didn't support it, the German nationals at the front gate of my base made sure of it back in 2003. I didn't think we would go to war with out UN support, but I was wrong. Did I agree with it? Well, my personal opinion didn’t matter at the time, my job did. History has shown what happens when a military uprises, and the end result is worse then anything you can imagine. I've already posted information about this stuff, and you have to understand that there is more to this then you know.
As a Canadian you should know that your military has a long history of fighting wars that didn't directly involve your country. WWII was never fought on Canadian soil or directly effect Canadian interest, but Canadian solders still died in France and Italy. What if they stood up to an unjust war back then? The outcome could have been completely different. They had every right to say no to their government for its involvement with American and British issue. They played an important part in that time of history. Yes, there where also civilians killed by the Canadian military during that time. War is not something clean or good, a necessity yes in some cases, but not something anyone should rush to do.
Understand that what people are accusing the military of doing on this board contradicts everything they stand for. I keep my mouth shut about a lot of things, but I'm not going to stand by while people talk about something they don't know anything about. That kind of talk does a lot of damage, and its based on nothing factual, not some thing we need in our country.
History will prove it in the end; the outcome will be worth it. Don't sell it short.
Look, a common misconception people have about the military is that they should stand up to their government. This is the last quality in a professional military you want to have. Discipline and following orders are the fine line between a military and a band of unruly armed crowd. This is concept that until you join the military, you won't understand. .
Ollie North? Is that you?
I thought when a person joins the army, this is what they should understand: I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
And I fully recognize the fact that the world didn't support it, the German nationals at the front gate of my base made sure of it back in 2003. I didn't think we would go to war with out UN support, but I was wrong. Did I agree with it? Well, my personal opinion didn’t matter at the time, my job did. History has shown what happens when a military uprises, and the end result is worse then anything you can imagine. I've already posted information about this stuff, and you have to understand that there is more to this then you know.
I didn't say anything about a military coup. I said protest. It should have come from the highest levels of the military, but also from anyone that took that oath...a declaration of war...Checks n balances.
I hope there are still lines a US soldier won't cross on orders to save their job...
As a Canadian you should know that your military has a long history of fighting wars that didn't directly involve your country. WWII was never fought on Canadian soil or directly effect Canadian interest, but Canadian solders still died in France and Italy. What if they stood up to an unjust war back then? The outcome could have been completely different. They had every right to say no to their government for its involvement with American and British issue. They played an important part in that time of history. Yes, there where also civilians killed by the Canadian military during that time. War is not something clean or good, a necessity yes in some cases, but not something anyone should rush to do.
Well, we were fighting against a nation that invaded our allies, not invading with the allies.... I first brought up WWII only as an example of the pointless, intentional targetting of civilians, which imo, the bombings in Japan were.
I regret that my country didn't do more to prevent WWII, and that we haven't learned how to be proactive enough to break the cycle of letting tyrants rise to power, and letting war profiteers do their thing...but again, Canadians are not much different at this point...as a country, we'd rather keep our jobs than oppose our boss (the USD).
Understand that what people are accusing the military of doing on this board contradicts everything they stand for. I keep my mouth shut about a lot of things, but I'm not going to stand by while people talk about something they don't know anything about. That kind of talk does a lot of damage, and its based on nothing factual, not some thing we need in our country.
History will prove it in the end; the outcome will be worth it. Don't sell it short.
I agree wholeheartedly that these things contradict what they stand for! That's my whole point. If we can't agree on facts, so be it...
But I'll bet ya a case of canadian beer that history will look at this particular war as the catalyst for your countries fall as the lone world power, even tho it won't be true
was there and in my year we did not target one civilan. Like the old saying goes you do not want to stand behind the troops then go ahead and stand in front of them.
I'm not saying individual soldiers target civilians. The military does, as a whole. I'd say it's fact, I'd say there's abundant evidence to support this claim.
Ask me about any modern war the US has been part of and I'll show you a list of innocent dead people; bombed by the US, of course this isn't a uniquely American tactic, it's just modern warfare (Operation Allied Force, for example).
So if we look at the history of modern warfare we see a great number of civilian casualties. Every war it's the same story: "Whoops, we dropped bombs on your village, killed families, little children, pregnant women. We bombed your brothers, sisters, your parents and everyone you love. But it's a mistake, ok? It's not intentional."
But the week after that the same thing happens, and two months later it happens again... And it has been happening for so long that only an idiot wouldn't see the pattern.
Perhaps I was wrong to say they "target" civilians. They just don't care whether civilians die or not. The millitary doesn't value life, I guess. Or perhaps brown people living in poverty aren't really people? I mean you already said they're not like us, they don't value human life... So who cares if we waste a few of their families or babies? Right? Go Army!
And no, I don't support the army and I'd never join an industry that causes so much death and destruction, a machine that kills indiscriminately and doesn't even recognise the loss of innocent life.
If the military doesn't know they are killing civilians then I can only conclude the military is filled with idiots. They are out of touch with reality. Any war kills many many civilians. History proves it, in fact everyone knows it. I know that in the next war innocent people will be bombed again, and again it will be "unintentionally". It should probably be the first thing you learn when you join up: War sucks, innocent people will die. If the war is fought on American soil and your family dies, accept it. This is the business we're in.
Careless, reckless and indifferent describes these "unintentional" bombings or deaths better if you ask me. There's nothing unintentional about it if you know for a fact it will happen. And I think they do know, they're just not very honest about it towards the outside world. They're probably concerned about what the people might think.
That kind of talk does a lot of damage, and its based on nothing factual, not some thing we need in our country.
Voila, except it is based on fact, common sense, logic, history...
Anyway, you may know the military side of the story... but I know the other side of the story as well. Some of my best friends come from a country that was bombed. I can try and sell them your American ideals, but I'm afraid they'll decline... And rightly so.
You can explain to them how just it was that their families were murdered. You can explain to them how they have no value of human life next. And then you can explain to them how they don't understand.
from what i can gather - apparently, as long as their is a remote possibility that a "legitimate" target was present - the loss of innocent civilians is ok ...
Well, we were fighting against a nation that invaded our allies, not invading with the allies.... I first brought up WWII only as an example of the pointless, intentional targetting of civilians, which imo, the bombings in Japan were.
I regret that my country didn't do more to prevent WWII, and that we haven't learned how to be proactive enough to break the cycle of letting tyrants rise to power, and letting war profiteers do their thing...but again, Canadians are not much different at this point...as a country, we'd rather keep our jobs than oppose our boss (the USD).
I agree wholeheartedly that these things contradict what they stand for! That's my whole point. If we can't agree on facts, so be it...
But I'll bet ya a case of canadian beer that history will look at this particular war as the catalyst for your countries fall as the lone world power, even tho it won't be true
"that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."
This is the part I'm talking about, sure supporting and defending the principal of the constitution, but find me a part in the constitution where it says for federal troops to stand up to their officers and President? The UCMJ defends acts that any enlisted or officer is required to object too, regardless of the orders. Look at the Uniformed Code of military justice and you will find your answer.
History repeats itself, and the isolationism of that time lead to WWII, and it won't work now. The British targeted civilians with night time bombing raids, as did the Germans during the Blitz; intentional targeting of civilians was done by all sides of the conflict on purpose. Does it make it right? Of course not, but there is a big difference between those tactics of WWII and today. We don't go out of our way to kill civilians, and I know I can say all I want, people here still won't believe me.
The military is a necessity, just like other municipal or government positions. The America people did not protest in any great length before the war, some in small droves here and there, but you ask people on the street now and they say they where against it from the start. Well where were they? 2004 was an election year; if the population made their opinions heard then it might have been different. But once again, people had no clue as to what they were getting themselves into as a country. This wasn't going to be a repeat of 90/91, and from the beginning people should have seen this was going to be a slow process. So in the last 4 years, the news has been telling people that Iraq was a bad idea and that they should drop their support for the war. The total polarized shift of American opinion on the "war on terror" has made me sick. How can the same people be completely support it in the first four years, then switch during the last? Nothing has changed for the military member thats deployed a bunch of times in the past 8 years, war is still the same from Oct 2001 to now.
It just amaze me how the mass population will follow the extreme right with out question, and now follow the extreme left with out question. This makes it difficult for the people that fight the wars, how can they complete their job with the people flip flopping back here in the states? If they took that kind of attitude on these things, our military would fall apart. The fact is that things are getting better in Iraq and Afghanistan, not in all areas, but as a whole, yes it is. Prove to me that both countries as a whole are getting worse. 10 years from now people will see that staying with the plan was worth it in the long run.
People want instant results, even Osama said it himself that Americans can't deal with a long war. Who ever thought that this would all be wrapped up in less then a year or two clearly doesn't understand the process. You don't have to agree with the war, and you don't have to "support" the troops for all I care. But understand what people want to do by pulling troops out early is just as bad as starting the war in the first place. Its like going in and poking a bee hive on the side of your house, then running away, how does that take care of the problem?
You also have to understand that the small % of extremist in the world aren't going to sit down to diplomacy. These are the same people that cut off heads for petty crimes, adultery, and for just being a homosexual, tolerance is not their trade mark. They only understand one thing, and that is to spread their radical ideology and kill anyone that doesn't agree with it. You can ignore it for a while, but I'm telling you its only getting worse. Come up with a plan that will deal with them effectively and not kill people at the same time, then you my friend will be the most celebrated person of the new century.
I like Molson, but the kind with the funny labels on the side, what ever happen to those?
You can explain to them how just it was that their families were murdered. You can explain to them how they have no value of human life next. And then you can explain to them how they don't understand.
What countries are your friends from and from what conflict?
What countries are your friends from and from what conflict?
I have quite a lot of friends from ex-Yugoslavia . I have a few Iraqi friends as well.
Most of them witnessed war and bombings. Most of them saw severed arms, legs and heads in the streets. The body parts did not belong to terrorists or evil people. They were normal, innocent people.
I have quite a lot of friends from ex-Yugoslavia . I have a few Iraqi friends as well.
Most of them witnessed war and bombings. Most of them saw severed arms, legs and heads in the streets. The body parts did not belong to terrorists or evil people. They were normal, innocent people.
And ever single one of them was caused by an American?
Comments
It would make only an idiot wonder.
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Serioulsy, these people don't strap bombs to their chests because they don't value life, they do it because they have no other way's to fight, they are doing it to stop more killings and what are you talking about beheadings? They don't have beheading parties, what do you think?..they invite a bunch of friends over, eat a little hummus and start beheading eachother? I mean if they did that then yes I would say that they don't value life.
You need to understand the reasons, the cause for these actions. what would make a man take his own life.
People going on that the west values life more, what bs, the american governments drops 5 ton bombs on a village in a 3rd world country. While sitting safe at home Americans ignore it and watch deal or no deal eating big macs...yeah, real value for life.
Maybe by their warped courts... who knows. How would you feel if there was a foriegn Army on American soil? Would their being here be a crime in your eyes?
And so what about the Russian tanks? I get sick about this whole "They don't fight fair" stuff. If all you had was rocks against tanks... you'd figure something out.
A True Patriot would strap a bomb on himself and kill enemy invaders along with himself... for his country... for his people... right? I don't know about you, but if the situation was reversed... and they were over here... your're damned right I'd be out there trying to kill them.
Hail, Hail!!!
Have you been to Iraq? Have you spoken with any of the Iraqi people? Well let me fill you in. Saddam was a terrible dictator. These people were thanking us. Shaking our hands and telling us how great it was to get rid of Saddam. These radicals kill themselves not to fight evenly. They do it because they are radical muslims that think killing westerners is a holy thing to do. By the way to answer your other post Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was a syrian that beheaded a Jewish American trying to fix the electricity grid in Iraq not a court.
Edit: I do not believe all Muslims are bad. Every culture has it bad apples, the radicals are the muslims bad apple.
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
And it ignores the support Saddam received while he was in power from the US, going so far as to http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/rumsfeld-hussein.jpg.
We're integrating Iraq into our economic model, one that we've been building since the end of WWII.
No, but I have spoken to Iraqis. I have also been to Afghanistan during the taliban rule. btw, a large number of Iraqis are now saying (as reported by many news agencies) that life was better under the rule of saddam.
also bergs own father does not blame them for the death of his son, on top of that many stories came around after that you need to look into about that beheading.
Also like it's been posted, it was America that gave saddam power. Like they gave the shah of Iran power and Augusto José Ramón Pinochet power. Both backed by America and both brutal dictators.
Made in America
This video shows how our US military sometimes value innocent civilians...Iraq Bomb Strike please take a look.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
many of these people will be spending the winter in tents.
refugees are too often overlooked when it comes to war.
http://www.truthout.org/102008D
I'd like to see how you'd feel about this if was happening in the US. Ah, yes... the Western world values life more. Total bullshit buddy, I know plenty of people who have been outside the Western world, who lived there or still live there - several members of my family, for example. They all greatly disagree with this.
If police fought crime as recklessly as the military fights "terrorism" and their victims were innocent American families... I doubt excuses as "no one in the police wants to kill innocent peope" will do, or "you don't understand the nature of things."
I do understand. I understand that if your military methods and tactics repeatedly kill innocent people, there is something wrong with them. Saying it's "unintentional" doesn't excuse those murders.
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Well good thing its just your opinion and not fact.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQWll-tWfJw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey9JbkW8Jto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfSYU8dYz0Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-UsWOKJ6R4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOxlyRNpQIY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXfVlTZMnQg
And this is why we fight.....go and watch it, you want to defend their actions. (nothing graphic)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXksoJ2_9Wg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8e5WZrzZgA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWnIRPl8xuw
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
Don't tell people that here, they won't believe you. They already made up their minds based on nothing factual.
I'm sorry, but that story by the BBC is twisted that around beyond anything factual. They have no idea as to the details behind that specific attack, all they are doing is giving their skewed opinion as to what that 30 sec video is about.
No civilian is going to casually walk in a mob in the middle of a combat zone like that. And the JTAC had visual contact with those people in question. He calls it in for a specific target, not for the aircraft just to hunt down anyone in the area. If that were true, they would be in jail, the JTAC and the pilot. Please trust me on this.
But what the fuck do I know? I only worked on F-16s for six years, and knew plenty of pilots. I mean thats not nearly the kind of experience that matches up to any one on this board?
I did, please show me something factual that the military is knowingly killing civilians.
If anyone from a group whose actions you disagreed with, even considered criminal, told you that they were innocent, or would be in jail, would you 'trust them on it'? please. Nice edit....placed the question in the present tense, didn't you?
I already know your answer to anything current I bring up. Either, "it was an accident, prove it wasn't", OR "that/those soldier(s) acted on his/her/their own, it was not a US military decision".
Again, you'll be asking us to trust you that the military will police their own...while your bosses and colleagues engage in the violation of the treaties that are supposed to keep war 'honourable'.
Think about it...every mass bombing targets civilians. They didn't knowlingly bomb civilians in the Shock and Awe campaign? please. They carpet bombed a city. Hiroshima? Nagasaki? oops! A quarter million dead.
When you drop a giant bomb on a village, knowing that it's probably going to kill innocent people. perhaps just to get 1 'bad' guy. The only logical conclusion one can come to is that the US does not care if it kills those innocent people to begin with.
Yep, mindless zombie here, just doing the bidding of my evil Republican masters. Well I don't know what say, my grammer sucks, sorry for my past/present/future errors.
I guess we have all the answers we need here. The ten minutes a day you spend reading the news and all the conversations with your friends automatically make you some sort of subject matter on this issue? You're no different the the far right. But what can I say, if you want to honesly believe that people in the military go out of their way to kill civilians, then fine. I won't loose sleep over the fact that I did my job to the best of my ability for what I think is right. Its not like you or anyone on this board represent the majority of America, so keep spewing your bullshit, if I'm the only one to hear it then thats fine with me.
I'm just scared your ignorance will spread, just like the same fear tactic the far right uses, instead of "terrorist" out to get us, it the "government" and all of their blood thirsty troops are out to kill children.
Come up with a better answer, some thing besides IGNORING THE PROBLEM. If it can be fixed with out killing a soul, then I'm all ears.
But I don't 'support the troops', because I don't agree with their actions. I personally think the military should have long ago stood up to the government. Are you guys not supposed to have allegience to the constitution above all else? The lack of protest from the military over the Iraq wars' constitutional violations undermined what was left of US military credibility...stooping to torture sunk it completely. Why should anyone assume that the military will police their own when they disobey every rule on the books?
btw, I'm not American, I'm Canadian. You also seem to think I'm a liberal, which I'm not. And no, I don't think my country is much different, because we, like the US military, have not stood up against the wars our leaders are waging. We have soldiers killing innocent people in Afghanistan.....But your assumption shows the insular thinking that makes the international community wary of your countries intentions..... you don't acknowledge that it is not just the opinion of the American people that the US should be considering when bombing other countries...actually, the fact that you are not recognizing this brings the thread full circle.
(and, I brought up your edit because it would have been very easy to bring up past events - like those in Japan - as answers to your challenge, not to point out grammar mistakes)
And they do it because they hate us. Remember the 2002 Bali Bombings? I was still living in Australia when 88 Aussies lost their lives with 114 other people. Our crime as they saw it? Being Allies with the USA. They deliberately targeted us at a place where they knew our people holidayed. Bail is always heavily populated with Australian Tourists.
The three Bali Bombers are currently on death row awaiting execution and this is a transcript of what they had to say. It's chilling. I've bolded the part that supports what you say how they think think by doing this, they are stopping more killings.
MARK COLVIN: Indonesia, with the Muslim fasting month of Ramadan over today, the guessing game has begun again over the execution date of the Bali bombers.
Previous statements made by Indonesia's Attorney-General's office suggest they'll be shot by firing squad before this year is over.
The doors of the bombers' prison in Central Java were thrown open to the media today as part of Idul Fitri celebrations.
It was there that our Indonesia correspondent Geoff Thompson came face to face with Amrozi, Imam Samudra and Ali Ghufron also known as Mukhlas.
(Sound of prayers over speaker system)
GEOFF THOMPSON: Prayers fill the courtyard of Nusakambangan and as the assembled media, watch through thick glass the dramatically black and white head-scarfed image of Imam Samudra is eventually filtered from among the many faces in the crowd.
Soon we are let in to the courtyard itself, and even before the ceremony is over to mark the end of Ramadan and the beginning of Idul Fitri, Samudra has bustled his way over to be closer to the waiting media to say that even as his execution date approaches he still has no regrets, and no feelings at all for the unbelievers he calls "kaffirs".
GEOFF THOMPSON: Any message for Australia as your death approaches?
IMAM SAMUDRA: For who, for who?
GEOFF THOMPSON: For Australia.
IMAM SAMUDRA: For Australia? I said to him to Australia, they cannot stop Mujahideen movement. If they want to stop Mujahideen and if they want to stop they are better off (to stop) the sun and moon, okay.
GEOFF THOMPSON: What do you say to the hundreds of people you helped kill?
IMAM SAMUDRA: Which people, which people you mean?
GEOFF THOMPSON: The people killed in Bali in 2002.
IMAM SAMUDRA: For Muslim, I already said in the past year, last year that (begins to speak in Indonesian) For Muslim only, but for kaffir, for unbeliever - it is destiny. But kaffir, I no say sorry for kaffir. For Muslim, I say sorry for them.
GEOFF THOMPSON: So, not sorry, for the Australians who died?
IMAM SAMUDRA: No, no, no. For Australia I never sorry, but for Muslim I am very, very sorry for him, alright? It is accidental.
GEOFF THOMPSON: For men who have long said they are willing to die as martyrs, the bombers have attempted every possible legal challenge. The latest is a Constitutional Court challenge claiming that death by firing squad is torture. With this perhaps their last celebration of the end of the Ramadan month, I asked a long-haired and light-blue robed Amrozi, whether he felt any regrets towards the Australians he killed.
(Amrozi speaking)
"No", he said in a tone of threatening jest "If I have a chance I will kill more, but not you because you are a journalist".
(To Amrozi) How do you feel about dying? You will be shot soon through the heart and it may take seven minutes to die. How do you feel about that?
(Amrozi speaking)
"I don't feel that I will be executed. I don't think about it". Amrozi says.
(Sound of Amrozi laughing)
(To Amrozi) Do you think you'll be killed this year?
(Amrozi speaking)
"No, no, no, I never think about it". Amrozi replies.
But Father Charlie Burrows at a nearby Cilacap Catholic church has been thinking about it a lot and appeared as a witness in a Constitutional Court to support the bombers claims that the death by firing squad is torture. His evidence is compelling because it was he who eye-witnessed the executions of two Nigerian drug runners on Nusakambangan Island a few months ago.
CHARLIE BURROWS: Well after they were shot they were, they were moaning for about seven minutes and real moaning, moaning in pain, they were...
(Sound of Father Burrows moaning)
And everybody at that stage was really, felt really bad yeah, because they went down for so long.
GEOFF THOMPSON: The bombers said they would rather be beheaded than shot because it was more humane but today Amrozi's brother, Mukhlas was as defiant as ever.
(Ali Ghufron speaking)
"Kill one Mukhlas and there will be many more" he said.
Ali Ghufron then went on to praise God for the recent suicide bombing at the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad and warned that once he is executed, his executors will be hunted down by his Mujahideen friends around the world. Asked what he would now say to the family to the 88 Australians who died in 2002's Bali bombings, Mukhlas said "it's all decided by Allah and they should say sorry to God".
But many Australians think you're just a common murderer.
(Ali Ghufron speaking)
"All the people say that I'm a murderer but the thing is we kill the murderer to make peace in the world. Why did we kill Australians? Because they fight against the Mujahideen", Mukhlas said.
In Nusakambangan prison, this is Geoff Thompson for PM.
If an actual effort was made to find solutions, instead of enforcing Western systems and culture, I would bet that all you'd be left with is a few religious extremists, and a lot less innocent lives lost.
pj_gurl...is this a 'for us or against us' kinda thing? If we don't support the military, we must support them? You're ignoring the fact that they hate you because of your military actions. The mentality of both sides is so fucking kindergarten it's unreal...
Someone has to man up and put down their guns first, right?
Look, a common misconception people have about the military is that they should stand up to their government. This is the last quality in a professional military you want to have. Discipline and following orders are the fine line between a military and a band of unruly armed crowd. This is concept that until you join the military, you won't understand.
And I fully recognize the fact that the world didn't support it, the German nationals at the front gate of my base made sure of it back in 2003. I didn't think we would go to war with out UN support, but I was wrong. Did I agree with it? Well, my personal opinion didn’t matter at the time, my job did. History has shown what happens when a military uprises, and the end result is worse then anything you can imagine. I've already posted information about this stuff, and you have to understand that there is more to this then you know.
As a Canadian you should know that your military has a long history of fighting wars that didn't directly involve your country. WWII was never fought on Canadian soil or directly effect Canadian interest, but Canadian solders still died in France and Italy. What if they stood up to an unjust war back then? The outcome could have been completely different. They had every right to say no to their government for its involvement with American and British issue. They played an important part in that time of history. Yes, there where also civilians killed by the Canadian military during that time. War is not something clean or good, a necessity yes in some cases, but not something anyone should rush to do.
Understand that what people are accusing the military of doing on this board contradicts everything they stand for. I keep my mouth shut about a lot of things, but I'm not going to stand by while people talk about something they don't know anything about. That kind of talk does a lot of damage, and its based on nothing factual, not some thing we need in our country.
History will prove it in the end; the outcome will be worth it. Don't sell it short.
I thought when a person joins the army, this is what they should understand:
I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
I didn't say anything about a military coup. I said protest. It should have come from the highest levels of the military, but also from anyone that took that oath...a declaration of war...Checks n balances.
I hope there are still lines a US soldier won't cross on orders to save their job...
Well, we were fighting against a nation that invaded our allies, not invading with the allies.... I first brought up WWII only as an example of the pointless, intentional targetting of civilians, which imo, the bombings in Japan were.
I regret that my country didn't do more to prevent WWII, and that we haven't learned how to be proactive enough to break the cycle of letting tyrants rise to power, and letting war profiteers do their thing...but again, Canadians are not much different at this point...as a country, we'd rather keep our jobs than oppose our boss (the USD). I agree wholeheartedly that these things contradict what they stand for! That's my whole point. If we can't agree on facts, so be it...
But I'll bet ya a case of canadian beer that history will look at this particular war as the catalyst for your countries fall as the lone world power, even tho it won't be true
I'm not saying individual soldiers target civilians. The military does, as a whole. I'd say it's fact, I'd say there's abundant evidence to support this claim.
Ask me about any modern war the US has been part of and I'll show you a list of innocent dead people; bombed by the US, of course this isn't a uniquely American tactic, it's just modern warfare (Operation Allied Force, for example).
So if we look at the history of modern warfare we see a great number of civilian casualties. Every war it's the same story: "Whoops, we dropped bombs on your village, killed families, little children, pregnant women. We bombed your brothers, sisters, your parents and everyone you love. But it's a mistake, ok? It's not intentional."
But the week after that the same thing happens, and two months later it happens again... And it has been happening for so long that only an idiot wouldn't see the pattern.
Perhaps I was wrong to say they "target" civilians. They just don't care whether civilians die or not. The millitary doesn't value life, I guess. Or perhaps brown people living in poverty aren't really people? I mean you already said they're not like us, they don't value human life... So who cares if we waste a few of their families or babies? Right? Go Army!
And no, I don't support the army and I'd never join an industry that causes so much death and destruction, a machine that kills indiscriminately and doesn't even recognise the loss of innocent life.
If the military doesn't know they are killing civilians then I can only conclude the military is filled with idiots. They are out of touch with reality. Any war kills many many civilians. History proves it, in fact everyone knows it. I know that in the next war innocent people will be bombed again, and again it will be "unintentionally". It should probably be the first thing you learn when you join up: War sucks, innocent people will die. If the war is fought on American soil and your family dies, accept it. This is the business we're in.
Careless, reckless and indifferent describes these "unintentional" bombings or deaths better if you ask me. There's nothing unintentional about it if you know for a fact it will happen. And I think they do know, they're just not very honest about it towards the outside world. They're probably concerned about what the people might think.
Voila, except it is based on fact, common sense, logic, history...
Anyway, you may know the military side of the story... but I know the other side of the story as well. Some of my best friends come from a country that was bombed. I can try and sell them your American ideals, but I'm afraid they'll decline... And rightly so.
You can explain to them how just it was that their families were murdered. You can explain to them how they have no value of human life next. And then you can explain to them how they don't understand.
naděje umírá poslední
"that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."
This is the part I'm talking about, sure supporting and defending the principal of the constitution, but find me a part in the constitution where it says for federal troops to stand up to their officers and President? The UCMJ defends acts that any enlisted or officer is required to object too, regardless of the orders. Look at the Uniformed Code of military justice and you will find your answer.
History repeats itself, and the isolationism of that time lead to WWII, and it won't work now. The British targeted civilians with night time bombing raids, as did the Germans during the Blitz; intentional targeting of civilians was done by all sides of the conflict on purpose. Does it make it right? Of course not, but there is a big difference between those tactics of WWII and today. We don't go out of our way to kill civilians, and I know I can say all I want, people here still won't believe me.
The military is a necessity, just like other municipal or government positions. The America people did not protest in any great length before the war, some in small droves here and there, but you ask people on the street now and they say they where against it from the start. Well where were they? 2004 was an election year; if the population made their opinions heard then it might have been different. But once again, people had no clue as to what they were getting themselves into as a country. This wasn't going to be a repeat of 90/91, and from the beginning people should have seen this was going to be a slow process. So in the last 4 years, the news has been telling people that Iraq was a bad idea and that they should drop their support for the war. The total polarized shift of American opinion on the "war on terror" has made me sick. How can the same people be completely support it in the first four years, then switch during the last? Nothing has changed for the military member thats deployed a bunch of times in the past 8 years, war is still the same from Oct 2001 to now.
It just amaze me how the mass population will follow the extreme right with out question, and now follow the extreme left with out question. This makes it difficult for the people that fight the wars, how can they complete their job with the people flip flopping back here in the states? If they took that kind of attitude on these things, our military would fall apart. The fact is that things are getting better in Iraq and Afghanistan, not in all areas, but as a whole, yes it is. Prove to me that both countries as a whole are getting worse. 10 years from now people will see that staying with the plan was worth it in the long run.
People want instant results, even Osama said it himself that Americans can't deal with a long war. Who ever thought that this would all be wrapped up in less then a year or two clearly doesn't understand the process. You don't have to agree with the war, and you don't have to "support" the troops for all I care. But understand what people want to do by pulling troops out early is just as bad as starting the war in the first place. Its like going in and poking a bee hive on the side of your house, then running away, how does that take care of the problem?
You also have to understand that the small % of extremist in the world aren't going to sit down to diplomacy. These are the same people that cut off heads for petty crimes, adultery, and for just being a homosexual, tolerance is not their trade mark. They only understand one thing, and that is to spread their radical ideology and kill anyone that doesn't agree with it. You can ignore it for a while, but I'm telling you its only getting worse. Come up with a plan that will deal with them effectively and not kill people at the same time, then you my friend will be the most celebrated person of the new century.
I like Molson, but the kind with the funny labels on the side, what ever happen to those?
What countries are your friends from and from what conflict?
I have quite a lot of friends from ex-Yugoslavia . I have a few Iraqi friends as well.
Most of them witnessed war and bombings. Most of them saw severed arms, legs and heads in the streets. The body parts did not belong to terrorists or evil people. They were normal, innocent people.
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And ever single one of them was caused by an American?