Hilton slammed in Oslo for Cuba embargo

13

Comments

  • normnorm Posts: 31,146
    Byrnzie wrote:
    So the Florida Keys and Cancun aren't enough for ya? You fuckers would love to make the whole world your personal holiday resort wouldn't you?

    We're coming here next.;):)

    http://www.road-to-the-isles.org.uk/muck.html
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    jlew24asu wrote:
    who's fault is that? castro or america business?


    how would it be castro's fault??? he's talking pre-castro, when we had our tenticles everywhere in cuba making all the money while they got scraps...and also when they used american tanks to run over it's civilians, which helped lead to the popular support for castro...
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    jeffbr wrote:
    Right, because our standard of living is awful compared to what they enjoy in that workers' paradise. Things are so pure there, it would be horrible if we were to go in there and offer them products, services, choices, jobs, infrastructure, industry.

    Never mind 'going in there'. How about just lifting the illegal embargo?
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    cutback wrote:

    For a bit of sheep shagging? :D
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    jlew24asu wrote:
    what the fuck are you talking about? rape cuba?

    heres an example. castro dies and teh have free elections and proclaim america a freind, embargo is dropped (which I am all in favor of), I travel down there for a week long vacation and spend a few thousand bucks. I stay in a american hotel that employs 500 cubans. I could go on but I sure hope you get my point.

    Free elections? What, like in Palestine, or Iraq? You mean elections that must favour a pro-American leaning businessman who will sell his country down the crapper. And if the elections don't go America's way then you'll finance and promote a coup, assasinate the democratically elected leader, or just bomb the shit out of the place.
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Never mind 'going in there'. How about just lifting the illegal embargo?

    isn't it funny? we bribe the oas to take part in the embargo, meaning virtually no one could trade w/ them...so who else was left but russia?

    and as someone pointed out about the cuban missile crisis, yeah, weren't we dropping bombs in cuba before that and training insurgents to attack cuba? what about the bay of pigs?

    so why is cuba bad? b/c their commies? who's our biggest trading partner, again?
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Free elections? What, like in Palestine, or Iraq? You mean elections that must favour a pro-American leaning businessman who will sell his country down the crapper. And if the elections don't go America's way then you'll finace and promote a coup, assasinate the democratically elected leader, or just bomb the shit out of the place.


    well yeah, duuuuuuh
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    jlew24asu wrote:
    if the embargo is dropped do you have any idea how much money, american money, would flow in? billions. tripling the size of the small poor cuban economy. and you, an uneducated, economically challenged thinker, to tell me that wont be good for cubans?

    You make it sound as if the Cubans are imposing an embargo on themselves. What the f>{#L?: are you on about?
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    El_Kabong wrote:
    isn't it funny? we bribe the oas to take part in the embargo, meaning virtually no one could trade w/ them...so who else was left but russia?

    and as someone pointed out about the cuban missile crisis, yeah, weren't we dropping bombs in cuba before that and training insurgents to attack cuba? what about the bay of pigs?

    so why is cuba bad? b/c their commies? who's our biggest trading partner, again?

    Check this out sometime: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ultimate-Sacrifice-Thom-Hartmann/dp/184529338X/sr=1-1/qid=1168119667/ref=sr_1_1/202-8515862-6791850?ie=UTF8&s=books
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Never mind 'going in there'. How about just lifting the illegal embargo?

    I'm all for lifting the embargo. I don't mean "going in there" in terms of the US Govt. I was simply talking about the embargo going away and trade opening up - companies going in there. MrBrian seemed to think we'd destroy the precious paradise they currently have if US corporations touched their sacred ground.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Free elections? What, like in Palestine, or Iraq?

    no. cubans arent interested in the destruction of israel and west.

    Byrnzie wrote:
    You mean elections that must favour a pro-American leaning businessman who will sell his country down the crapper. And if the elections don't go America's way then you'll finace and promote a coup, assasinate the democratically elected leader, or just bomb the shit out of the place.

    I would be in favor of whatever the cuban people decide. if that want another dictator and dont care to end the embargo, fine I'll spend my money elsewhere
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Byrnzie wrote:
    You make it sound as if the Cubans are imposing an embargo on themselves. What the f>{#L?: are you on about?


    as long as castro is alive the embargo wont go anywhere. i'm hoping his brother is open to being friends with america. fidel was/is not
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    El_Kabong wrote:
    how would it be castro's fault??? he's talking pre-castro, when we had our tenticles everywhere in cuba making all the money while they got scraps...and also when they used american tanks to run over it's civilians, which helped lead to the popular support for castro...


    pre castro???? that would be 1958. america, american business, world economy, world politics, (I could go on) have all changed since then. alot. get over yourself
  • MrBrianMrBrian Posts: 2,672
    jeffbr wrote:
    MrBrian seemed to think we'd destroy the precious paradise they currently have if US corporations touched their sacred ground.

    That is just untrue, I never said that things were great right now, infact I even said that in one of my earlier posts.

    I'm scared that America will fuck cuba like it does to all the other countries I listed.

    Look at how much business american companies do with third world lands, my point is that they are not better off. also I even gave examples of the pre castro days and how american companies fucked the cuban people back then, just like they fuck the indians/pakistanis, south americans and asians right now.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I would be in favor of whatever the cuban people decide. if that want another dictator and dont care to end the embargo, fine I'll spend my money elsewhere

    So you think that it's Cubans that are imposing an embargo on themselves, and not the U.S government?
  • MrBrianMrBrian Posts: 2,672
    jlew24asu wrote:
    pre castro???? that would be 1958. america, american business, world economy, world politics, (I could go on) have all changed since then. alot. get over yourself

    Then you know nothing about world politics, american business or world economy.

    America is the same now as they were then. They still do the same things, they still back corrupts leaders, they still try to overthrow elected governments, american companies still screw with third world nations.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    MrBrian wrote:
    I'm scared that America will fuck cuba like it does to all the other countries I listed.

    you said america fucks other countries like china, pakistan, I forgot what others your said. but you didnt say HOW they fuck those countries.

    MrBrian wrote:
    Look at how much business american companies do with third world lands, my point is that they are not better off. also I even gave examples of the pre castro days and how american companies fucked the cuban people back then, just like they fuck the indians/pakistanis, south americans and asians right now.



    HOW HOW HOW. examples.

    India?? do you know how much aid we give them? or do you have any idea how many american jobs are now in India?

    regardless. you cant compare other third world countries to Cuba. Cuba is 80!!! miles off the coast of america. ask the bahmas how much they like doing business with the US. why havnt we "fucked" them over like you say.

    listen dude. you have potential to get your head out of your ass for a second. you make no sense whatsoever. its embarrassing.
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    jlew24asu wrote:
    pre castro???? that would be 1958. america, american business, world economy, world politics, (I could go on) have all changed since then. alot. get over yourself

    whatever that means

    yes, pre-castro...cuba's president used the tanks and weapons we sold them to kill cubans and repress them...this hasn't changed...we did it throughout the 80's and 90's creating, training, arming, funding death squads to keep the current us backed leader/dictator in place. we still do it, maybe not death squads but we arm militaries who in turn use the weapons on it's ppl when they try to actually practice democracy.

    a for the economy...look at the countries we have our tenticles in, pretty much the same as we did in cuba...we exploit their land, their resources, their ppl...and the government lets it happen b/c we give them 'aid' and weapons.

    get over myself? by replying in a thread? i don't understand
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    jlew24asu wrote:
    you said america fucks other countries like china, pakistan, I forgot what others your said. but you didnt say HOW they fuck those countries.






    HOW HOW HOW. examples.

    India?? do you know how much aid we give them? or do you have any idea how many american jobs are now in India?

    regardless. you cant compare other third world countries to Cuba. Cuba is 80!!! miles off the coast of america. ask the bahmas how much they like doing business with the US. why havnt we "fucked" them over like you say.

    listen dude. you have potential to get your head out of your ass for a second. you make no sense whatsoever. its embarrassing.


    well, in india us companies privatize water so it's illegal to even collect rain water...that's just for starters...then there's how comapnies like coke have severely polluted the water system there and this is a country where some ppl wash their clothes in the river...

    what does it matter how much 'aid' we give? it's just a bribe to keep things running the way they are supposed to ie; us companies profit. we give over a billion in 'aid' to colombia, yet their military has a loooot of rape cases against it....hmmm, raping while holding us weapons...but it's only saddam's rape's we need worry about, right? the aid is payment to keep letting us oil companies make the profits while the ppl whose land it is gets treated like shit, like peasants....

    i think you need to get over yourself, dude, you act so hostile and dismissive to any point of view that contradicts your own.
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • MrBrianMrBrian Posts: 2,672
    jlew24asu wrote:
    you said america fucks other countries like china, pakistan, I forgot what others your said. but you didnt say HOW they fuck those countries.






    HOW HOW HOW. examples.

    India?? do you know how much aid we give them? or do you have any idea how many american jobs are now in India?

    regardless. you cant compare other third world countries to Cuba. Cuba is 80!!! miles off the coast of america. ask the bahmas how much they like doing business with the US. why havnt we "fucked" them over like you say.

    listen dude. you have potential to get your head out of your ass for a second. you make no sense whatsoever. its embarrassing.

    again, you seem so obsessed with proximity. So what if pakistan is whatever many miles away, the fact is american companies pay child workers 1 dollar an hour to make clothes, fair? I call that fucking with them. even our medical tools are maid by fucking kids. I also many times gave examples of american companies in cuba, one of the reasons for the revolution.

    yes, bahams are doing well, but what makes you think the cubans will want cuba to turn into another fucking bahamas? let them decide their own fate.

    china with it's huge amounts of human rights violations, bad eh? yet american companies spend billions in china which helps these things go on.

    you want more examples?
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    MrBrian wrote:
    again, you seem so obsessed with proximity.

    because its very relevant
    MrBrian wrote:
    So what if pakistan is whatever many miles away, the fact is american companies pay child workers 1 dollar an hour to make clothes, fair? I call that fucking with them. even our medical tools are maid by fucking kids. I also many times gave examples of american companies in cuba, one of the reasons for the revolution.

    the cost of living in those countries determines what they are paid. abuse of child labor is not the fault of american companies. its the countries fault for not enforcing or even making laws against it. and for non children workers, those people im sure are happy to have a job.
    MrBrian wrote:
    yes, bahams are doing well, but what makes you think the cubans will want cuba to turn into another fucking bahamas?

    because the bahmas makes billions from america and the quality of life is much better in the bahmas then cuba
    MrBrian wrote:
    let them decide their own fate.

    great, sadly with a dictator, they cant.
    MrBrian wrote:
    china with it's huge amounts of human rights violations, bad eh? yet american companies spend billions in china which helps these things go on.

    so this is america's fault? doesnt china hold responsiblity for human rights violations?
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    jlew24asu wrote:
    because the bahmas makes billions from america and the quality of life is much better in the bahmas then cuba


    so this is america's fault? doesnt china hold responsiblity for human rights violations?


    have ya thought the bahamas is better b/c they don't we have an embargo and give aid to others if they do the same, which is what we did w/ the organization of american states...what we did w/ the coilition of the willing...if you took part you could get new/increased aid, debts forgiven...

    china is responsible, but why fund and support something?
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    El_Kabong wrote:
    have ya thought the bahamas is better b/c they don't we have an embargo and give aid to others if they do the same, which is what we did w/ the organization of american states...what we did w/ the coilition of the willing...if you took part you could get new/increased aid, debts forgiven...

    this makes no sense. try again. im interested

    MrBrian wrote:
    china is responsible, but why fund and support something?

    we arent funding or supporting anything.
  • MrBrianMrBrian Posts: 2,672
    jlew24asu wrote:
    because its very relevant



    the cost of living in those countries determines what they are paid. abuse of child labor is not the fault of american companies. its the countries fault for not enforcing or even making laws against it. and for non children workers, those people im sure are happy to have a job.



    because the bahmas makes billions from america and the quality of life is much better in the bahmas then cuba



    great, sadly with a dictator, they cant.



    so this is america's fault? doesnt china hold responsiblity for human rights violations?


    yes it is relevant, but you also can not ignore that it is systematic the way these companies work. that's why it's imporant when speaking about them to include as many examples as possible.

    If a company is aware of such practices, they should stop doing business with them, it's greed that keeps american companies in those places, if they made americans sew those soccer balls it would mean less profit for the company, so yes fault does lay with the american companies.

    yes the bahamas makes lot's of money, so do many other countries that are not americas tourist bitch.

    and yes of course china does hold responsibilty for the human rights violations, so do the people who help fund it. you can't supply a killer a gun and bullets, then when that killer goes around shooting people say "hey, I did'nt pull the trigger".
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    jlew24asu wrote:
    who's fault is that? castro or america business?



    I agree. I do not want US intervention. let cubans figure out shit themselves.




    pre-castro days was 50 years ago. times have changed. regardless of what you think or what has happened pre-castro (a long long time ago), american business and investment would do a great deal of good for cuba and the cuban people.

    its almost entirly dependent on what type of government and society cubans want for themselves.

    First off I walking talking pre-Castro. When the US put pressure on the Cuban government to sell coffee beans, sugar, and fruit at below market price to US corporations so that they could increase their profit. this wasn't benefiting Cubans. It benefited the corrupt Cuban government and it's immediate associates. They where filling their pockets while the average Cuban laborer and small farm owner was getting the shaft. Even after Fidel took over the government the US still fucked over Cubans by initiating hostilities towards the Castro government. Castro had never intended his revolution to be a communist take over of the country. He and his brother, Raul, along with Camillo Cienfuegos had leftist ideals but where not communist. they wanted an agrarian revolution where the farmer owner was in control of setting the price for their goods. After their victory and the souring of relations with the US, which by the way US policy towards Cuba was defined at the time by rich Cuban exiles who prospered under Batistas regime, Castro (with much pressure from Che) finally turned to the Soviet Union for help. Not that I support Castro's decision but when you have 1 of the 2 superpowers threatening you what other option do you have than to turn to the other for help. Had the US not turned hostile and attempted to work with the Castro government we could have averted the Pay of Pigs invasion, the Cuban Missle Crisis, the Cuban Embargo, and we could all be enjoying a mojito on some of the most prestine and beautiful beaches the world has to offer.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    MrBrian wrote:
    yes it is relevant, but you also can not ignore that it is systematic the way these companies work. that's why it's imporant when speaking about them to include as many examples as possible.

    ok
    MrBrian wrote:
    If a company is aware of such practices, they should stop doing business with them, it's greed that keeps american companies in those places, if they made americans sew those soccer balls it would mean less profit for the company, so yes fault does lay with the american companies.

    I wont say american companies could be more morally responsible about it, but its still the fault of the country for allowing it to happen. american companies brings opportunities to those workers. they are forced to work.
    MrBrian wrote:
    yes the bahamas makes lot's of money, so do many other countries that are not americas tourist bitch.

    not in the Caribbean. hence why proximity is so important
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    mammasan wrote:
    First off I walking talking pre-Castro. When the US put pressure on the Cuban government to sell coffee beans, sugar, and fruit at below market price to US corporations so that they could increase their profit. this wasn't benefiting Cubans. It benefited the corrupt Cuban government and it's immediate associates.

    exactly, governments fault. not america
    mammasan wrote:
    They where filling their pockets while the average Cuban laborer and small farm owner was getting the shaft. Even after Fidel took over the government the US still fucked over Cubans by initiating hostilities towards the Castro government. Castro had never intended his revolution to be a communist take over of the country. He and his brother, Raul, along with Camillo Cienfuegos had leftist ideals but where not communist. they wanted an agrarian revolution where the farmer owner was in control of setting the price for their goods. After their victory and the souring of relations with the US, which by the way US policy towards Cuba was defined at the time by rich Cuban exiles who prospered under Batistas regime, Castro (with much pressure from Che) finally turned to the Soviet Union for help.

    that was then. 50 years ago. I may be wrong but I think things would be different now.

    mammasan wrote:
    Not that I support Castro's decision but when you have 1 of the 2 superpowers threatening you what other option do you have than to turn to the other for help. Had the US not turned hostile and attempted to work with the Castro government we could have averted the Pay of Pigs invasion, the Cuban Missle Crisis, the Cuban Embargo, and we could all be enjoying a mojito on some of the most prestine and beautiful beaches the world has to offer.

    I wish as much as you that I could enjoy a mojito on the beach. cuba is a beatiful place. I want the embargo to end.

    the only point I am trying to make in this thread is that american investment you greatly benefit the cuban economy. it would trickle down to many cubans. IF they have a free capitalistic economy. thats up to them, I hope. with a dictator, however, that will never happen.
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    jlew24asu wrote:
    the only point I am trying to make in this thread is that american investment you greatly benefit the cuban economy. it would trickle down to many cubans. IF they have a free capitalistic economy. thats up to them, I hope. with a dictator, however, that will never happen.

    The problem is that Cuba has never had a free capitalist economy. They where always at the mercy of a greater power. First it was Spain, then the US, and finally the Soviet Union. Cuba has always been someone's bitch, I guess that's the best way I can describe it. You made a point that it was the Cuban governments cfault that the Cuban people where taken advantage of, but that government was enabled by US support. And yes that was 50 years ago and things may have changed, but I'm unwilling to take the chance. Like I said in an earlier post Cuba for Cubans. Cuban owned business, with cubans controlling their economy without undue foreign influence. I also see a renewed interest in Cuba by our government not because of some need to spread democracy but because of a large oil reserve found in the North Cuba Basin.

    When the embardgo is lifted maybe we can all catch a PJ show at the Teatro Garcia Lorca in Havana and then head to the beach at Varadero for those mojitos.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    mammasan wrote:
    The problem is that Cuba has never had a free capitalist economy. They where always at the mercy of a greater power. First it was Spain, then the US, and finally the Soviet Union. Cuba has always been someone's bitch, I guess that's the best way I can describe it. You made a point that it was the Cuban governments cfault that the Cuban people where taken advantage of, but that government was enabled by US support. And yes that was 50 years ago and things may have changed, but I'm unwilling to take the chance. Like I said in an earlier post Cuba for Cubans. Cuban owned business, with cubans controlling their economy without undue foreign influence. I also see a renewed interest in Cuba by our government not because of some need to spread democracy but because of a large oil reserve found in the North Cuba Basin.

    When the embardgo is lifted maybe we can all catch a PJ show at the Teatro Garcia Lorca in Havana and then head to the beach at Varadero for those mojitos.


    I'll be there dude. Mojitos on me :)
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I'll be there dude. Mojitos on me :)

    Deal and I'll treat to some ropa veija con congre and yuca.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
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