Banning Guns = Banning Islam?

hippiemom

69charger wrote:

Here's the argument...

A lot of people on this board would like to see a total ban on guns based on a very small fraction of a percentage of firearms being used to comit high profile crimes. The majority of the millions of guns in this country are never used to comit a crime and in fact are used over a million times a year to prevent crime.

So the logic goes...

Based on the small fraction of a percentage of crimes being comitted by Muslim extremeists we should ban the worship of Islam because it is apparently dangerous. That majority of Muslims in the world have never comitted a crime and in fact are appalled by the violence comitted in the name of their religion.

Does anyone get the point I'm trying to make?

The obvious answer to this is that you can't ban an idea. If we were truly determined as a nation we COULD eliminate most guns, but I doubt there'd be many people who would be willing to do what it takes, which would include at the very least a few amendments to the constitution. There is no way to "ban" Islam. You could ban the PRACTICE of Islam, but you can't legislate an idea out of existence.

OutOfBreath wrote:

However, guns dont have to be available anywhere at all times, with noone knowing who has how many either. People should be allowed to own them, certainly. But there are many measures that can be tried and used inbetween "I love my 5 million guns" and "Noone should have guns". and most people here, maybe even dunky, are promoting stricter regulation for the most part. As I understand it, you pretty much dont have any regulation over there.

The laws vary widely from state to state. Ohio and Montana, for example, have very little regulation, while other states like Maryland have much tighter controls. Since we travel freely between the states, this means virtually anyone who wants a gun, or a hundred guns, can get them easily.

PaperPlates wrote:

Than you are arguing out of ignorance. We have plenty of laws concerning guns and who, when and how they can get them. Unfortunately, as there is in any country, there's a very healthy black market here. Much the same as if you banned them outright, only the people (for the most part) who ARE responsible follow the laws currently in place as far as guns are concerned.

Most guns initially enter the market legally. Smith & Wesson isn't selling to the guy in Brooklyn. They get into the black market because there's nothing stopping anyone from going to a state like Montana or Ohio and stockpiling weapons, then taking them back to a state like New York that has tighter controls in place and selling them on the black market. There needs to be more nation-wide uniformity in our gun laws.

El_Kabong

PaperPlates wrote:

Of course I didnt answer your question. The question is stupid (im assuming it was intended to be) , and the answer is obvious. To say they accomplish nothing would be foolish. To say they stop criminals from getting their hands on weapons, would be more foolish.

sorry my request for clarification seems stupid to you. 69 said we had all these gun laws and none of them stop a criminal from committing a crime w/ a gun. i think you can't stop ALL of it but i do think some of the laws do prevent crime. they may not stop all crime committed w/ a gun but i bet it cuts down a good bit, especially w/ ppl who are in the heat of the moment.

but by the logic given we should legalize all drugs b/c the drug laws don't work as i can still get any illicit drug rather easily

PaperPlates

El_Kabong wrote:

but by the logic given we should legalize all drugs b/c the drug laws don't work as i can still get any illicit drug rather easily

While I disagree with making them legal, id love to see them legalized and regulated. Much in the way guns are. But I guess gun laws go to show that even something legal has a black market. Hell, I'd bet you can buy a freegin toaster on the black market. Illegal marketing of goods has existed as long as goods have existed. You and your ideas and ideals are great, but reality is what it is.


And by definition heat of the moment doesnt give the benefit of thinking about what you are doing. As pointed out above by another poster, crime and murder rates RISE in areas where guns are prohibited.


I have no great answer to how to solve the problem of criminals aquiring guns. I do know however, that taking them away from law abiding citizens is NOT the answer.

Cosmo

Question:
What do Gun people have against Gun Licensing and Registration? Why is that such a big deal?
...
I am a firm believer in the Constitutuion and Bill Of Rights of the United States. I do not advocate the total removal of guns from the private sector, but, i believe that there are WAAAAAYY too many idiots in the Public and most of them should NOT be running around with fucking guns. Just go to a swap meet or a NASCAR race and look at the crowd... drive on the freeways of Los Angeles and look in the other cars... do you really think you would be safer if they were all armed?
And stiffen the penalties on unlicensed/unregistered guns, as well as crimes commited using guns. Throw those asshole in prison instead of the guys just smoking pot and snorting cocaine.
All I know is this... America has a lot of dickheads living here. I don't want dickheads with guns running around here.

josevolution

i've read most of the post concerning this thread and no one has a really good answer to fix this major problem of too many guns in the posession of assholes in america i include myself because i sure as hell don't know what the solution is i will make sure no one in my family never buys a gun as long as they live under my roof but i do know if no bill or legislation gets created to fix this problem more innocent bystanders will get killed, just had to put my 2cents into this discussion......
ps: if there is a bill or legislation concerning this matter it needs to be revamped or updated or what ever.

Cosmo

josevolution wrote:

i've read most of the post concerning this thread and no one has a really good answer to fix this major problem of too many guns in the posession of assholes in america i include myself because i sure as hell don't know what the solution is i will make sure no one in my family never buys a gun as long as they live under my roof but i do know if no bill or legislation gets created to fix this problem more innocent bystanders will get killed, just had to put my 2cents into this discussion......
ps: if there is a bill or legislation concerning this matter it needs to be revamped or updated or what ever.

...
How about taxing the shit out of ammo? And while we're at it... tax the shit out of tobacco and alcohol.
Earmarking the taxes for Gun Safety Courses taught at local Law enforcement agencies, Gun Licensing/Registration funding, gun related trauma, etc... Just as taxes for cigarettes and booze are earmarked for health issues concering those things.
Reg'lur Joe Taxpayer that doesn't smoke or shoot up the fucking place and isn't a fucking alcoholic won't be paying for the ones who do.

josevolution

Cosmo wrote:

...
How about taxing the shit out of ammo? And while we're at it... tax the shit out of tobacco and alcohol.
Earmarking the taxes for Gun Safety Courses taught at local Law enforcement agencies, Gun Licensing/Registration funding, gun related trauma, etc... Just as taxes for cigarettes and booze are earmarked for health issues concering those things.
Reg'lur Joe Taxpayer that doesn't smoke or shoot up the fucking place and isn't a fucking alcoholic won't be paying for the ones who do.

these are all great suggestions that i did not think to bring up so i agree totally tax the shit out of all these things......

PaperPlates

josevolution wrote:

these are all great suggestions that i did not think to bring up so i agree totally tax the shit out of all these things......

They already do. Taxes won't mean less purchasers. And stricter laws wont either. Someone used the drug example. Drug laws are pretty stiff here, compared to abroad. And we have how many people who still want, buy, and use their drugs sitting in jail? Stricter laws just equals more law breakers. And when it becomes cheaper to buy something on the black market than it does to do so legally, people will go to the cheapest source. Legal or not. Alchohol prohibition worked well for us in the past didnt it?

therover

PaperPlates wrote:

Alchohol prohibition worked well for us in the past didnt it?

Excellent point. One of the most violent periods in American history.

Restless Soul

69charger wrote:

No, that's exactly my point.

Banning guns makes as much sense as banning Islam.

Exactly, you should ban both guns and bomb-making equipment instead, oh and video-making gear for jihadists, and swords and whatever else fundamentals use.

Cosmo

PaperPlates wrote:

They already do. Taxes won't mean less purchasers. And stricter laws wont either. Someone used the drug example. Drug laws are pretty stiff here, compared to abroad. And we have how many people who still want, buy, and use their drugs sitting in jail? Stricter laws just equals more law breakers. And when it becomes cheaper to buy something on the black market than it does to do so legally, people will go to the cheapest source. Legal or not. Alchohol prohibition worked well for us in the past didnt it?

...
Who's talking about 'less purchasers'? Make the users of these items pay for the consequnces of these products... what's wrong with that?
Make smokers pay for the issues caused by smoking, alcoholics pay for the consequences of alcohol use and gun shooters pay for the results of gun accidents and gun shot wounds.
Why should those of us who don't smoke, don't shoot guns and aren't alcoholics pay for the shit the people who do?
That's my question.

PaperPlates

Cosmo wrote:

...
Who's talking about 'less purchasers'? Make the users of these items pay for the consequnces of these products... what's wrong with that?
Make smokers pay for the issues caused by smoking, alcoholics pay for the consequences of alcohol use and gun shooters pay for the results of gun accidents and gun shot wounds.
Why should those of us who don't smoke, don't shoot guns and aren't alcoholics pay for the shit the people who do?
That's my question.

If I'm a gun owner who never shot someone, and never caused nor incurred any damages via my gun, why the fuck would or should I pay for that? Liberally diseased thinking at its finest.

1970RR

Cosmo wrote:

...
Who's talking about 'less purchasers'? Make the users of these items pay for the consequnces of these products... what's wrong with that?
Make smokers pay for the issues caused by smoking, alcoholics pay for the consequences of alcohol use and gun shooters pay for the results of gun accidents and gun shot wounds.
Why should those of us who don't smoke, don't shoot guns and aren't alcoholics pay for the shit the people who do?
That's my question.

Of course you are assuming that our government is capable of directing taxes collected to specific expenditures. With our current system - not fucking likely.

Cosmo

PaperPlates wrote:

If I'm a gun owner who never shot someone, and never caused nor incurred any damages via my gun, why the fuck would or should I pay for that? Liberally diseased thinking at its finest.

...
And I have a beer or two every once in a while and smoke a cigarette every now and then... so what? You won't find me crying about it. I don't care if that beer cost a little more if I know the fucker that drinks a pint of cheap whiskey every day has to pay for his hospital bills instead of me when his liver shuts down. Make the fuckers that cause the shit... pay for trhe shit.
And how much ammo do you buy per year? Offset that against your tax dollars burned in trauma centers and see which is greater.

Cosmo

1970RR wrote:

Of course you are assuming that our government is capable of directing taxes collected to specific expenditures. With our current system - not fucking likely.

...
Then you know what?
FIX THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT!!!
Don't accept its ineptness and corruption.

PaperPlates

Cosmo wrote:

...
And I have a beer or two every once in a while and smoke a cigarette every now and then... so what? You won't find me crying about it. I don't care if that beer cost a little more if I know the fucker that drinks a pint of cheap whiskey every day has to pay for his hospital bills instead of me when his liver shuts down. Make the fuckers that cause the shit... pay for trhe shit.
And how much ammo do you buy per year? Offset that against your tax dollars burned in trauma centers and see which is greater.

How does US paying more for our rights equal the "abuser" having to pay for it himself. Now, if you're telling me you simply feel that those who choose to abuse, are RESPONISIBLE THEMSELVES, then I agree. I dont understand how higher taxes would enable or force them to pay for it themselves? What did I miss? If you're bitching about our tax dollars paying for morons who cant or wont pay for their own problems, you're preaching to the choir.

Abookamongstthemany

Cosmo wrote:

...
Then you know what?
FIX THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT!!!
Don't accept its ineptness and corruption.

No shit, we are supposed to control the government. But all people ever do is wait around and complain, like nothing can ever be changed!! It's so lazy and american to simply want to throw out the system instead of getting off your ass and fixing the problems within it.

Cosmo

PaperPlates wrote:

How does US paying more for our rights equal the "abuser" having to pay for it himself. Now, if you're telling me you simply feel that those who choose to abuse, are RESPONISIBLE THEMSELVES, then I agree. I dont understand how higher taxes would enable or force them to pay for it themselves? What did I miss? If you're bitching about our tax dollars paying for morons who cant or wont pay for their own problems, you're preaching to the choir.

...
Earmark the taxes paid on Tobacco, Alcohol and Guns and Ammo to pay for the shit associated with them. If the excuse is that the government is corrupt and will spend it on hookers and booze in D.C, then the problem is THE GOVERNMENT.
If taxes collected from alcohol went to alcohol education and alcohol related issues... them make the fucker that are drinking the shit pay for it. Same goes for cigarettes and firearms.
...
Look through this entire thread and see who is tossing out ideas for solutions, rather than off-tangent bitching. Toss out some ideas to solve the problem or ideas to build on the ideas out there instead of simply looking for some way to tear them down and let the ineptness, corruption and status quo to continue.

trappedinmyradio

well, your argument based on analogy is a good one. but, the fact is, both are guaranteed, protected rights given to all citizens of this country. as far as banning a religion in another country, we have NOTHING. so, good day.

69charger wrote:

Here's the argument...

A lot of people on this board would like to see a total ban on guns based on a very small fraction of a percentage of firearms being used to comit high profile crimes. The majority of the millions of guns in this country are never used to comit a crime and in fact are used over a million times a year to prevent crime.

So the logic goes...

Based on the small fraction of a percentage of crimes being comitted by Muslim extremeists we should ban the worship of Islam because it is apparently dangerous. That majority of Muslims in the world have never comitted a crime and in fact are appalled by the violence comitted in the name of their religion.

Does anyone get the point I'm trying to make?

69charger

El_Kabong wrote:

but by the logic given we should legalize all drugs b/c the drug laws don't work as i can still get any illicit drug rather easily

I'm for this too! But with that come responsibility. Your insurance rates would be sky high if you develop a heroin addiction and if you comit crime while under the influence you should suffer huge penalties. I'm all for the legalization, TAXATION, and regulation of narcotics.