dispelling the ignorance some harbor towards Ralph Nader

RolandTD20Kdrummer

angelica wrote:

in the case of Alanis:

"It's like rain on your wedding day"

"it's a black fly in your chardonnay"

or like winning the lottery and dying the next day...


irony: an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.

A freeee riiide when you've already paid...

How bout not getting a free ride when you're already paid...

*cough* (Obama...pro bailout)

VictoryGin

angelica wrote:

And the dictionary.

What I'd like to know is where this Alanis-irony meme has stemmed from, that enables people act out ignorance of the the English language and yet feel so smug about it!

there's a difference between reading a definition and having the ability to really get it and apply it correctly. since you asked:

alanis acknowledged it:
The song's usage of the word "ironic" attracted attention [1][2][3] for what many feel is an improper application of the term.[4][5] Some situations that Morissette describes in the song are arguably examples of cosmic irony: events that, as the Oxford English Dictionary puts it, appear "as if in mockery of the fitness or rightness of things", such as "a death row pardon/two minutes too late".

Morissette has also confirmed that she is a self-dubbed "malapropism queen" and alleges that the song was lighthearted and not taken too seriously at the time it was written:[6]
“ For me the great debate on whether what I was saying in ‘Ironic’ was ironic wasn’t a traumatic debate. I’d always embraced the fact that every once in a while I’d be the malapropism queen. And when Glen and I were writing it, we definitely were not doggedly making sure that everything was technically ironic. It’s a testament to the fact that we didn’t think it was going to be put under the microscope by 30 million people. For me the sweetest moment came in New York when a woman came up to me in a record store and said, ‘So all those things in the “Ironic” aren’t ironic.’ And then she said, ‘And that’s the irony.’ I said, ‘Yup.’ To me it’s a real snapshot of a nineteen-year-old’s definition and version of how life worked at the time. All that ‘Ironic’ touches on spawned all my future inquiries into and current understandings of the mysteries of life. ”

The popular Irish comedian Ed Byrne often performs a skit in which he jokingly attacks the song for its lack of ironies: "The only ironic thing about that song is it's called ironic and it's written by a woman who doesn't know what irony is. That's quite ironic." Byrne goes through the song, working out how to change the various unfortunate incidents, mentioned in the song, into ironies. [7]

Popular satirists Berger and Wyse also parodied the song in their cartoon strip The Pitchers. In an episode where superhero Irony Man (a pun on Iron Man) likens his superpowers to lyrics from Morrisette's song, causing his cohorts to rename him "The Man from Alanis" (a pun on The Man from Atlantis).[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic_(song)


this guy talks about cognitive stuff, you might like it:

Most of the examples in "Ironic" don't even stand on the initial incongruity test. Morissette sings of flies in wine, rain on wedding days, and traffic that impedes your progress when things are already behind schedule. Sure, dying the day after you won the lottery would certainly suck, but dying at the age of ninety-eight is not especially unexpected. On the contrary, I would maintain that every morning a 98-year-old wakes up alive is more unexpected than the other. A situation is not ironic simply because it's a "bummer"; true irony is much more specific, much more dramatic, and—to those with a sardonic wit such as mine—much more amusing.

The most straightforward account I've discovered as to why this song is not ironic is online. Scott provides a brief, yet accurate description as to why the song lyrics do not describe ironic situations. Scott is a bit lenient, in my opinion, when he suggests that the song's plane crash vignette is an accurate depiction of irony. A person fearing airplanes who dies when his first flight crashes is not irony, in the true sense of the word. Remember, to be truly ironic, the situation must be profoundly absurd or even laughable. A man who fears flight and then dies when a plane crashes into his car would be an example of irony.

The amazingly humorous thing about the song, of course, is that it is itself a form of irony. Writing a song about irony—one which attempts to demonstrate irony—that, instead, provides not one true example of irony is most ironic. And damned funny, if you ask me. Some have argued that this was intentional, that Morissette had this in mind all along as she wrote the song. While I will admit that she seems more intelligent than the average bear, Alanis has never struck me as an intellectual of any depth. I believe such a profound statement far beyond her capabilities.

http://home.mchsi.com/~djdowns9/ironic.html

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Someone post the lyrics to the entire song...the suspense is killing me now.

Anyone have Alanis on speed dial? Can someone do their PHD thesis on this song?

I heard her say Nader is like an ice cream cone that you dropped on the ground but you already paid. Still tastes the same, not as perfect as the brand new cone, but it has a little more grit to it.

angelica

VictoryGin wrote:

there's a difference between reading a definition and having the ability to really get it and apply it correctly. since you asked:

Dictionary definitions are pretty straightforward. Including this case.

alanis acknowledged it:
The song's usage of the word "ironic" attracted attention [1][2][3] for what many feel is an improper application of the term.[4][5] Some situations that Morissette describes in the song are arguably examples of cosmic irony: events that, as the Oxford English Dictionary puts it, appear "as if in mockery of the fitness or rightness of things", such as "a death row pardon/two minutes too late".

Morissette has also confirmed that she is a self-dubbed "malapropism queen" and alleges that the song was lighthearted and not taken too seriously at the time it was written:[6]
“ For me the great debate on whether what I was saying in ‘Ironic’ was ironic wasn’t a traumatic debate. I’d always embraced the fact that every once in a while I’d be the malapropism queen. And when Glen and I were writing it, we definitely were not doggedly making sure that everything was technically ironic. It’s a testament to the fact that we didn’t think it was going to be put under the microscope by 30 million people. For me the sweetest moment came in New York when a woman came up to me in a record store and said, ‘So all those things in the “Ironic” aren’t ironic.’ And then she said, ‘And that’s the irony.’ I said, ‘Yup.’ To me it’s a real snapshot of a nineteen-year-old’s definition and version of how life worked at the time. All that ‘Ironic’ touches on spawned all my future inquiries into and current understandings of the mysteries of life. ”

The popular Irish comedian Ed Byrne often performs a skit in which he jokingly attacks the song for its lack of ironies: "The only ironic thing about that song is it's called ironic and it's written by a woman who doesn't know what irony is. That's quite ironic." Byrne goes through the song, working out how to change the various unfortunate incidents, mentioned in the song, into ironies. [7]

Popular satirists Berger and Wyse also parodied the song in their cartoon strip The Pitchers. In an episode where superhero Irony Man (a pun on Iron Man) likens his superpowers to lyrics from Morrisette's song, causing his cohorts to rename him "The Man from Alanis" (a pun on The Man from Atlantis).[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic_(song)


this guy talks about cognitive stuff, you might like it:

Most of the examples in "Ironic" don't even stand on the initial incongruity test. Morissette sings of flies in wine, rain on wedding days, and traffic that impedes your progress when things are already behind schedule. Sure, dying the day after you won the lottery would certainly suck, but dying at the age of ninety-eight is not especially unexpected. On the contrary, I would maintain that every morning a 98-year-old wakes up alive is more unexpected than the other. A situation is not ironic simply because it's a "bummer"; true irony is much more specific, much more dramatic, and—to those with a sardonic wit such as mine—much more amusing.

The most straightforward account I've discovered as to why this song is not ironic is online. Scott provides a brief, yet accurate description as to why the song lyrics do not describe ironic situations. Scott is a bit lenient, in my opinion, when he suggests that the song's plane crash vignette is an accurate depiction of irony. A person fearing airplanes who dies when his first flight crashes is not irony, in the true sense of the word. Remember, to be truly ironic, the situation must be profoundly absurd or even laughable. A man who fears flight and then dies when a plane crashes into his car would be an example of irony.

The amazingly humorous thing about the song, of course, is that it is itself a form of irony. Writing a song about irony—one which attempts to demonstrate irony—that, instead, provides not one true example of irony is most ironic. And damned funny, if you ask me. Some have argued that this was intentional, that Morissette had this in mind all along as she wrote the song. While I will admit that she seems more intelligent than the average bear, Alanis has never struck me as an intellectual of any depth. I believe such a profound statement far beyond her capabilities.

http://home.mchsi.com/~djdowns9/ironic.html

And still, Alanis' words fit within the dictionary definition I quoted.


I'm interested in why you feel Roland's usage of the word ironic is inaccurate, if you do in fact feel that way.

El_Kabong

inmytree wrote:

I stand corrected, my comparison post was about Job Creation...

http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=297792&highlight=nader

it might not have been as long as obama's but

[/quote]By requiring equitable trade, investing in urgently needed local labor-intensive public works (infrastructure improvements), creating a new renewable energy efficiency policy; by fully funding education and redirecting large bureaucratic and fraudulent health expenditures toward preventive health care we can reverse this trend and create millions of new jobs.
[/qote]

inmytree wrote:

I do have to say I agree with a lot of what Nader says about Healthcare...I will give him that...and I agree, there needs to be a new direction in regards to healthcare...I wish he would address the loss of jobs that would happen if we went to a single payer, non-profit system...

there is much i wish obama would address, here is the post on obama's health care plan

http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?p=5266293