Photos of Israeli Children 'Signing' Missiles Stir Controversy

shiraz

baraka wrote:

With all due respect, shiraz, your analogy could be used to 'excuse' this behavior on the 'other side' of this conflict. I agree with you that these children are in a war zone and would naturally direct 'hate' towards the opposing side. The same argument can be made for the Palestinian children as well.

Hizbullah is a terror organization, Nasrallah is a terrorist! This has NOTHING to do with the Lebanese people, the 'other side' = Hizbullah, to whom the kids worte their "greetings", they didn't adress anything to the Lebanese civilians!

Hating the Hizbullah is the same thing as hating Al Qaida - its a natural thing. And I've never said anything about Palestinian children, for god sake stop reading what you want to read in my posts!

El_Kabong

i thought it ended w/ the point about the effects of militarization on children...not just pointing a finger at israelis. of course the populace and their children are being brainwashed on both sides, i just think israel is in more of a position to make it stop. if they stopped taking land, bulldozing down homes, throwing tear gas into ambulances picking up ppl they just beat, threw stun grenades at...then there wouldn't be as much of a reason tobelieve what groups like hezbollah and hamas say. they are merely exploiting the situation israel is helping to create, and so is the israel government.

but to make a case that this isn't happening on the israeli side, that their children aren't being raised w/ this hate is innacurate.

as for things being ignores, shiraz, this has been ignored every single time, too

http://www.captiveminds.org/misc/letter.htm

"DEAR SOLDIER, PLEASE KILL A LOT OF ARABS"

Source: Yedioth Ahronoth, May 7, 2002

Israeli reservists serving in the Tulkarm area during Operation Defensive Shield were stunned when they opened gifts sent by school children from central Israel. Many of the students wrote them letters in which they encouraged them to disregard the rules and regulations and to kill as many Arabs as possible. Dozens of the letters were sent, mostly from children in the 7th through 10th grades who attend national religious schools.

One reservist said he was eager to open the letter, but he was stunned when he started to read it. "I pray for you that you return home safely, and kill at least ten for me," wrote the pupil. "Screw the rules and spray them. By the way-a good Arab is a dead Arab." Other letters were even more heated. "Let the Palestinians, may God blacken their name, burn in Hell. Punch holes in them with your M-16 and bomb them," wrote one of the teens. Another wrote, "I have a special request for you-kill as many Arabs as you can." In another letter, a pupil wished the soldier success in his mission and added, "Say, isn't it fun to shoot an Arab? Here's a slogan: a good Arab is a dead Arab. A top notch Arab is a buried Arab."

Most of the letters contained similar statements. Some of the teenagers, who are supposed to be drafted in another two years, said they regretted not being able to take part in the "action" now. The reservist who opened the first letter mentioned above gathered all the letters and sent them to the Jewish Action Center. "I read the letters and couldn't believe my eyes," he said. "We keep talking about the hateful incitement of the Palestinian educational system towards Israel, and suddenly it happens here with us, beneath everyone's nose. This issue simply frightens me and has to set off alarms in our educational system."

The director of the public department at the Jewish Action Center sent a letter to the Education Minister demanding she investigate the situation and curb "trends towards radicalization." The ministry said it will investigate.

shiraz

El_Kabong wrote:

i thought it ended w/ the point about the effects of militarization on children...not just pointing a finger at israelis. of course the populace and their children are being brainwashed on both sides, i just think israel is in more of a position to make it stop. if they stopped taking land, bulldozing down homes, throwing tear gas into ambulances picking up ppl they just beat, threw stun grenades at...then there wouldn't be as much of a reason tobelieve what groups like hezbollah and hamas say. they are merely exploiting the situation israel is helping to create, and so is the israel government.

but to make a case that this isn't happening on the israeli side, that their children aren't being raised w/ this hate is innacurate.

as for things being ignores, shiraz, this has been ignored every single time, too

http://www.captiveminds.org/misc/letter.htm

"DEAR SOLDIER, PLEASE KILL A LOT OF ARABS"

Source: Yedioth Ahronoth, May 7, 2002

Israeli reservists serving in the Tulkarm area during Operation Defensive Shield were stunned when they opened gifts sent by school children from central Israel. Many of the students wrote them letters in which they encouraged them to disregard the rules and regulations and to kill as many Arabs as possible. Dozens of the letters were sent, mostly from children in the 7th through 10th grades who attend national religious schools.

One reservist said he was eager to open the letter, but he was stunned when he started to read it. "I pray for you that you return home safely, and kill at least ten for me," wrote the pupil. "Screw the rules and spray them. By the way-a good Arab is a dead Arab." Other letters were even more heated. "Let the Palestinians, may God blacken their name, burn in Hell. Punch holes in them with your M-16 and bomb them," wrote one of the teens. Another wrote, "I have a special request for you-kill as many Arabs as you can." In another letter, a pupil wished the soldier success in his mission and added, "Say, isn't it fun to shoot an Arab? Here's a slogan: a good Arab is a dead Arab. A top notch Arab is a buried Arab."

Most of the letters contained similar statements. Some of the teenagers, who are supposed to be drafted in another two years, said they regretted not being able to take part in the "action" now. The reservist who opened the first letter mentioned above gathered all the letters and sent them to the Jewish Action Center. "I read the letters and couldn't believe my eyes," he said. "We keep talking about the hateful incitement of the Palestinian educational system towards Israel, and suddenly it happens here with us, beneath everyone's nose. This issue simply frightens me and has to set off alarms in our educational system."

The director of the public department at the Jewish Action Center sent a letter to the Education Minister demanding she investigate the situation and curb "trends towards radicalization." The ministry said it will investigate.

You post it a few days ago, I wrote a replay, but again - YOU don't read what doesn't fit you.

shiraz wrote:

2002, are you kidding me? is that the best you got? One incident from 2002, which was well published at local media and then was investigated & solved?

God, this is pathetic. You are catually doing everything you can to see it in a specific fixed way.

Leave our kids alone!

shiraz

El_Kabong wrote:

i thought it ended w/ the point about the effects of militarization on children...not just pointing a finger at israelis. of course the populace and their children are being brainwashed on both sides, i just think israel is in more of a position to make it stop. if they stopped taking land, bulldozing down homes, throwing tear gas into ambulances picking up ppl they just beat, threw stun grenades at...then there wouldn't be as much of a reason tobelieve what groups like hezbollah and hamas say. they are merely exploiting the situation israel is helping to create, and so is the israel government.

but to make a case that this isn't happening on the israeli side, that their children aren't being raised w/ this hate is innacurate.

as for things being ignores, shiraz, this has been ignored every single time, too

http://www.captiveminds.org/misc/letter.htm

"DEAR SOLDIER, PLEASE KILL A LOT OF ARABS"

Source: Yedioth Ahronoth, May 7, 2002

Israeli reservists serving in the Tulkarm area during Operation Defensive Shield were stunned when they opened gifts sent by school children from central Israel. Many of the students wrote them letters in which they encouraged them to disregard the rules and regulations and to kill as many Arabs as possible. Dozens of the letters were sent, mostly from children in the 7th through 10th grades who attend national religious schools.

One reservist said he was eager to open the letter, but he was stunned when he started to read it. "I pray for you that you return home safely, and kill at least ten for me," wrote the pupil. "Screw the rules and spray them. By the way-a good Arab is a dead Arab." Other letters were even more heated. "Let the Palestinians, may God blacken their name, burn in Hell. Punch holes in them with your M-16 and bomb them," wrote one of the teens. Another wrote, "I have a special request for you-kill as many Arabs as you can." In another letter, a pupil wished the soldier success in his mission and added, "Say, isn't it fun to shoot an Arab? Here's a slogan: a good Arab is a dead Arab. A top notch Arab is a buried Arab."

Most of the letters contained similar statements. Some of the teenagers, who are supposed to be drafted in another two years, said they regretted not being able to take part in the "action" now. The reservist who opened the first letter mentioned above gathered all the letters and sent them to the Jewish Action Center. "I read the letters and couldn't believe my eyes," he said. "We keep talking about the hateful incitement of the Palestinian educational system towards Israel, and suddenly it happens here with us, beneath everyone's nose. This issue simply frightens me and has to set off alarms in our educational system."

The director of the public department at the Jewish Action Center sent a letter to the Education Minister demanding she investigate the situation and curb "trends towards radicalization." The ministry said it will investigate.

You posted it a few days ago, I wrote a replay, but again - YOU don't read what doesn't fit you.

shiraz wrote:

2002, are you kidding me? is that the best you got? One incident from 2002, which was well published at local media and then was investigated & solved?

God, this is pathetic. You are acatually doing everything you can to see it in a specific fixed way.

Leave our kids alone!

El_Kabong

shiraz wrote:

You posted it a few days ago, I wrote a replay, but again - YOU don't read what doesn't fit you.




Leave our kids alone!

the article i started this thread w/ contradicted your reply that you say has been ignored. you claim the bombs were signed to a particular person or group.

from the article:
"The Jeusalem Post site explained, "Questions over the photos' authenticity have been put to rest by authorities that were present during the incident, which occurred on July 17 near the northern border. The mostly local children had been brought to see the shells by their parents. Although it remains unclear who encouraged them to write the messages, their colorful scribbles, including a Star of David, hearts, and 'From Israel, with Love'...."

and regardless if they were signed to a single person, i doubt it will comfort the family an innocent person who was killed. even if one of them killed Nasrallah you will just be recruiting even more to take his place w/ this display. killing thru wreckless force is not going to solve yours or anyones problems.

does it matter if it was 2002? IT STILL HAPPENED and if anything w/ these pics shows it STILL IS.

shiraz

El_Kabong wrote:

the article i started this thread w/ contradicted your reply that you say has been ignored. you claim the bombs were signed to a particular person or group.

from the article:
"The Jeusalem Post site explained, "Questions over the photos' authenticity have been put to rest by authorities that were present during the incident, which occurred on July 17 near the northern border. The mostly local children had been brought to see the shells by their parents. Although it remains unclear who encouraged them to write the messages, their colorful scribbles, including a Star of David, hearts, and 'From Israel, with Love'...."

and regardless if they were signed to a single person, i doubt it will comfort the family an innocent person who was killed. even if one of them killed Nasrallah you will just be recruiting even more to take his place w/ this display. killing thru wreckless force is not going to solve yours or anyones problems.

does it matter if it was 2002? IT STILL HAPPENED and if anything w/ these pics shows it STILL IS.

And once again, you read what you want to and playing the "innocent". Your original artical and original titles regarding those pictures were basically saying "Israeli kids are signing gifts for the Lebanese". This is a VERY demagogic thing to say, especially because kids are involved (not to mention your and most of other people lack of Hebrew knowledge).

I wrote I don't like this picture because of the proximity of the kids to weapons - they shouldn't have to be there in the first place. This is the ONLY thing worng with that picture. The kids wrote to Hizbullah, not to anyone else. They didn't write "we hate arabs", and connecting this incident to an old isolated one from 2002 is WRONG AND COMPLETELY DEMAGOGIC. You are painting here a dangerous false equation: All Israeli kids are bloodthirsty and hate arabs. What the hell are you trying to do? Do you want some fanatical person to go into a Jewish/Israeli kindergarten and shoot the kids? What are getting out of criminal generalizing and presenting Israeli kids and their parents as full with hate to arabs?

THIS IS WRONG, and you should be extremely ashamed of yourself for doing that.

Open

jsand wrote:

Of course that's scarier than the Palestinian children with suicide bomb belts on.

Give it a rest.

Open your eyes just for a milisecond, for a MILISECOND! What's sad is that kids are being taken advantage of...cause kids on either sides, they dont know any better, obviously you dont either. Grow a brain.

PaperPlates

El_Kabong wrote:

i thought it ended w/ the point about the effects of militarization on children...not just pointing a finger at israelis. of course the populace and their children are being brainwashed on both sides, i just think israel is in more of a position to make it stop. if they stopped taking land, bulldozing down homes, throwing tear gas into ambulances picking up ppl they just beat, threw stun grenades at...then there wouldn't be as much of a reason tobelieve what groups like hezbollah and hamas say. they are merely exploiting the situation israel is helping to create, and so is the israel government.

but to make a case that this isn't happening on the israeli side, that their children aren't being raised w/ this hate is innacurate.

as for things being ignores, shiraz, this has been ignored every single time, too

http://www.captiveminds.org/misc/letter.htm

"DEAR SOLDIER, PLEASE KILL A LOT OF ARABS"

Source: Yedioth Ahronoth, May 7, 2002

Israeli reservists serving in the Tulkarm area during Operation Defensive Shield were stunned when they opened gifts sent by school children from central Israel. Many of the students wrote them letters in which they encouraged them to disregard the rules and regulations and to kill as many Arabs as possible. Dozens of the letters were sent, mostly from children in the 7th through 10th grades who attend national religious schools.

One reservist said he was eager to open the letter, but he was stunned when he started to read it. "I pray for you that you return home safely, and kill at least ten for me," wrote the pupil. "Screw the rules and spray them. By the way-a good Arab is a dead Arab." Other letters were even more heated. "Let the Palestinians, may God blacken their name, burn in Hell. Punch holes in them with your M-16 and bomb them," wrote one of the teens. Another wrote, "I have a special request for you-kill as many Arabs as you can." In another letter, a pupil wished the soldier success in his mission and added, "Say, isn't it fun to shoot an Arab? Here's a slogan: a good Arab is a dead Arab. A top notch Arab is a buried Arab."

Most of the letters contained similar statements. Some of the teenagers, who are supposed to be drafted in another two years, said they regretted not being able to take part in the "action" now. The reservist who opened the first letter mentioned above gathered all the letters and sent them to the Jewish Action Center. "I read the letters and couldn't believe my eyes," he said. "We keep talking about the hateful incitement of the Palestinian educational system towards Israel, and suddenly it happens here with us, beneath everyone's nose. This issue simply frightens me and has to set off alarms in our educational system."

The director of the public department at the Jewish Action Center sent a letter to the Education Minister demanding she investigate the situation and curb "trends towards radicalization." The ministry said it will investigate.

I wonder if Sally Struthers could help me "adopt" one of those cuties. Id promise to send two Sharpies every week.

El_Kabong

shiraz wrote:

And once again, you read what you want to and playing the "innocent". Your original artical and original titles regarding those pictures were basically saying "Israeli kids are signing gifts for the Lebanese". This is a VERY demagogic thing to say, especially because kids are involved (not to mention your and most of other people lack of Hebrew knowledge).

not true...i posted the pics one other time and that was in someone else's thread...here it is
http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=3520557&postcount=23

i did not say what you are claiming. in both that reply and the original one in this i stated that it is horrible to do this to children...i am not demonizing israelis, i'm saying kids are being taught to hate on both sides and it is sick!

as flor my lack of hebrew knowledge, i will rely on the Jerueslem Post, which certainly does know hebrew.

shiraz wrote:

I wrote I don't like this picture because of the proximity of the kids to weapons - they shouldn't have to be there in the first place. This is the ONLY thing worng with that picture. The kids wrote to Hizbullah, not to anyone else. They didn't write "we hate arabs", and connecting this incident to an old isolated one from 2002 is WRONG AND COMPLETELY DEMAGOGIC. You are painting here a dangerous false equation: All Israeli kids are bloodthirsty and hate arabs. What the hell are you trying to do? Do you want some fanatical person to go into a Jewish/Israeli kindergarten and shoot the kids? What are getting out of criminal generalizing and presenting Israeli kids and their parents as full with hate to arabs?

THIS IS WRONG, and you should be extremely ashamed of yourself for doing that.

according to an ISRAELI newspaper they signed them ambiguously w/ things like 'from israel w/ love' i also stated it does not matter if they were signing them just to hezbollah (which the israeli newspaper refuted), it is WRONG.

i never said, implied or did anything to mean 'all israeli kids are bloodthirsty' what i said is israeli childrend are being raised to hate and that is horrible.

the incident from 2002 simply shows that this has been going on.

if you want i can repost the videos of israeli children (living in an occupied territory) throwing rocks at, punching and kicking arabs while the idf stands around doing nothing to stop it. this is not to demonize israeli children, it's to show they are being raised to hate a certain group just like some palestinian/arab kids are. you have to admit your own mistakes before you can work on solving them. to just say the arabs are the ones taught to hate and constantly rationalize the other side of it will get nowhere in terms of peace.

baraka

El_Kabong wrote:

you have to admit your own mistakes before you can work on solving them. to just say the arabs are the ones taught to hate and constantly rationalize the other side of it will get nowhere in terms of peace.

I agree with this statement. The cycle of violence has to stop somewhere. Sadly, until both sides learn to respect each others right to exist, this madness will only continue. There has to come a point when finger pointing stops and progressive peace negotiations begin.

Commy

baraka wrote:

I agree with this statement. The cycle of violence has to stop somewhere. Sadly, until both sides learn to respect each others right to exist, this madness will only continue. There has to come a point when finger pointing stops and progressive peace negotiations begin.

For that to happen Israel and the United States to to recognize the palestinian people's right to exist and cease all hostile actions towards them.

Abookamongstthemany

Just imagine having or letting our school age children sign bombs to get Bin Laden. It's just sick to teach children that killing is how to solve your problems. It instills this neverending cycle of hate and hinders any chance of peace or a solution to this.

baraka

Commy wrote:

For that to happen Israel and the United States to to recognize the palestinian people's right to exist and cease all hostile actions towards them.

Of course, thus my quote, 'until both sides learn to respect each others right to exist..........'

baraka

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Just imagine having or letting our school age children signing bombs to get Bin Laden. It's just sick to teach children that killing is how to solve your problems. It instills this neverending cycle of hate and hinders any chance of peace or a solution to this.

Exactly, most young children are going to equate a 'figure head/heads' of the conflicting group to the whole group of said people. Children signing bombs, regardless if they're only directed toward Nasrallah fans the flames for fear & hate toward a much larger group of people & this is inappropriate. & this works both ways on both sides.

catefrances

shiraz wrote:

This, This is what I'm talking about. Assuming things just becasue someone said something that matched your point of view and there we have it - the whole world is now thinking these Israeli *kids* and maybe all Israeli kids are evil.

How LOW can you guys go?"

That artical proves I was right. Great, so now our kids are evil. Yeah, good for you. Keep on "not" stirring up the air storm.

in no way do i believe that israeli kids are evil. as a parent i find the signing of missiles, bombs or whatever abhorrant no matter what the hell they are saying. who is in charge of these children? where is the responsibility of care?

Vedderlution_Baby

catefrances wrote:

in no way do i believe that israeli kids are evil. as a parent i find the signing of missiles, bombs or whatever abhorrant no matter what the hell they are saying. who is in charge of these children? where is the responsibility of care?

It seems that some people would see it as their responsibility to teach their childern who the enemy is, which would be THEM. (Please, take notice that "THEM" does not refer to a specific group of people, but rather more like the Pink Floyd song. Jesus. Calm the fuck down). It's fucking ridiculous. Oh my god. What the fuck.!?!

shiraz

El_Kabong wrote:

i did not say what you are claiming. in both that reply and the original one in this i stated that it is horrible to do this to children...i am not demonizing israelis, i'm saying kids are being taught to hate on both sides and it is sick!

And I'm telling you that the Hate for Hizbullah comes naturally, nobody needs to teach them these kind of things, we're talking about a TERROR ORGANIZATION.

El_Kabong wrote:

as flor my lack of hebrew knowledge, i will rely on the Jerueslem Post, which certainly does know hebrew.according to an ISRAELI newspaper they signed them ambiguously w/ things like 'from israel w/ love' i also stated it does not matter if they were signing them just to hezbollah (which the israeli newspaper refuted), it is WRONG.

It DOES matter, because all over the board and other websites, people claim those children were "signing gifts for the Lebanese", and that is a lie. I don't think there's something wrong with hating a terror organization who is destroying everybody's life just because it can (hence, I don't have a problem with stuff like "from Israel with love..." that were adressed to the Hizbullah). I do have a problem with this whole scenario (as I said before), meaning our kids shouldn't have done any of it, they weren't even suppose to be around these weapons and that is indeed wrong (and I already wrote that).

El_Kabong wrote:

i never said, implied or did anything to mean 'all israeli kids are bloodthirsty' what i said is israeli childrend are being raised to hate and that is horrible.

Yes you did, and not only you. It is called demagoguery, and you use this method in most of you posts (and not only you). Hence, you don't to say it loud and clear, just write "DEAR SOLDIER, PLEASE KILL A LOT OF ARABS" as a response to the case in Lebanon and there we have it: 1+1 =2, those kids from the picture hate arabs and are signing gifts for the Lebanese. Other may think all Israeli's think that way, and why? because of some isolated well published incident from 2002. I'm not saying stuff like that never happened here (I'm sure there's lots of similar cases in the US), but you are doing a dangerous generalization and THAT is wrong.

El_Kabong wrote:

if you want i can repost the videos of israeli children (living in an occupied territory) throwing rocks at, punching and kicking arabs while the idf stands around doing nothing to stop it. this is not to demonize israeli children, it's to show they are being raised to hate a certain group just like some palestinian/arab kids are.

This IS a demonizing of israeli (or Palestinian) children, becuse someone who sees these kind of things along with your demagogic titles would think ALL Israeli (or Palestinian) kids are full with hate and are being raised that way.

El_Kabong wrote:

you have to admit your own mistakes before you can work on solving them

I would suggest you'll adress those words to yourself cause:

El_Kabong wrote:

to just say the arabs are the ones taught to hate and constantly rationalize the other side of it will get nowhere in terms of peace.

I NEVER EVER SAID THIS, which proves yet once again you are a VREY demagogic person who reads what he wants to read, not what I ACTUALLY wrote. Now people will read (or alreay read) your post, they won't bother to check what I really posted and some of them may start thinking: "Shiraz thinks all arabs are educated to hate", which leads us to "Israeli's think all arab are educated to hate" and there you have it - demagogy in its full glory. Make no mistake, this is EXACTLY how it works, and I think you know that very well so stop playing the "innocent" guy.

shiraz

catefrances wrote:

in no way do i believe that israeli kids are evil. as a parent i find the signing of missiles, bombs or whatever abhorrant no matter what the hell they are saying. who is in charge of these children? where is the responsibility of care?

You won't. Others may do. And as I've said before this whole scenario is wrong, however evryone who has something to say about it connected it with "Israeli kids are signing gifts to the Lebanese", which is a dangerous lie.

http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=207915

" Israeli kids signing gifts to lebanon kids" (second post by Eva7). This, This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

shiraz

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

It seems that some people would see it as their responsibility to teach their childern who the enemy is, which would be THEM. (Please, take notice that "THEM" does not refer to a specific group of people, but rather more like the Pink Floyd song. Jesus. Calm the fuck down). It's fucking ridiculous. Oh my god. What the fuck.!?!

They don't need to. Hizbullah is shooting rockets over our houses, I think its a big hint they are not our friends... It's like the Lebanese kids would assume the IDF is their enemy, because we are shooting over their houses. It's a natuarl thing, no one needs to teach it, and I don't think there's a point in explaining *very young kids* what is really going on - they won't understand it anyway, little kids usually see the world in black or white till they are getting older.

shiraz

Commy wrote:

For that to happen Israel and the United States to to recognize the palestinian people's right to exist and cease all hostile actions towards them.

This is a good example to what's El_Kabong's demagogy can cause. You see I've never said we have no mistakes, nor justified our actions. In fact, I wrote many many times I think both sides are to blame, and that I think our reaction in Lebanon was unmeasured. But why bother to actually check the things I *wrote*, when someone else has already "delivered them"?

So people read his demagogic stuff and assume I'm a one sided person who can not acknowledge her own country's mistakes, and maybe all of Israeli and Jewish people are the same. Not only this is not fair, but also dangerous. Demagogy leads to more hate, and more hate leads to radical actions like the one in Seattle.

Stop doing it!