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those poor israeli victims...

El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
edited July 2006 in A Moving Train
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVtqnubZv9k&eurl=
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • MLC2006MLC2006 Posts: 861
    yeah the Israelis that get blown up in a nightclub or riding on a bus don't deserve the same human rights that all you nuts want to speak out for for the Palestinians. "oh, but strapping a bomb to themselves and killing innocent children is their only means of defending themselves". fuck that weak ass argument, maybe they shouldn't have elected Hamas to be their government.
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    MLC2006 wrote:
    yeah the Israelis that get blown up in a nightclub or riding on a bus don't deserve the same human rights that all you nuts want to speak out for for the Palestinians. "oh, but strapping a bomb to themselves and killing innocent children is their only means of defending themselves". fuck that weak ass argument, maybe they shouldn't have elected Hamas to be their government.


    so you think israel is justified in shooting over ppl's heads while holding a memorial for rachel corrie and then shooting them w/ tear gas?? what was the point in that? there was no violent actions going on and they just ride up and start shooting over everyone's heads.

    i've condmened suicide bombings soooo many times here. that's teh funny thing, i can condemn both sides, yet ppl like you only condemn one
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • MLC2006MLC2006 Posts: 861
    then please give me some of your past posts where you've condemned any of the Palestinians actions, because all I've seen is anti-Jew rhetoric and it is getting quite old.
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    MLC2006 wrote:
    then please give me some of your past posts where you've condemned any of the Palestinians actions, because all I've seen is anti-Jew rhetoric and it is getting quite old.

    well, here's one from just the other day
    http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?p=3509403&#post3509403

    i've condemned suicide bombing and the targeting of civilians (on both sides) several times, i'm not gonna waste more time searching for it. wouldn't ya think someone who's antiwar would be?

    anti-jew rhetoric? what's next, i'm a anti-semite? please, there is a difference between a government and their actions compared to the average citizen. being jewish has nothing to do w/ any of it.

    as i've said before, i can condemn both sides see;
    suicide bombing is wrong
    any targeting of civilians is a horrible crime

    can you denounce and condemn anything israel does?
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    Both sides are equally as wrong... This video sickens me.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • shirazshiraz Posts: 528
    El_Kabong wrote:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVtqnubZv9k&eurl=

    Your headline is disgusting, demagogic and most of all - pointless. What did you try to say, that our lifes worth less than otheres because of Israel's actions? That we deserve to die? What's with all of this contempt & disrespect?!? We are also burying people today!
  • NakedClownNakedClown Posts: 545
    shiraz wrote:
    Your headline is disgusting, demagogic and most of all - pointless. What did you try to say, that our lifes worth less than otheres because of Israel's actions? That we deserve to die? What's with all of this contempt & disrespect?!? We are also burying people today!

    THIS is what needs to be remembered. There are villians/victims on both sides - as in any battle.

    To demonize one side more than the other is absurd. Both sides have inflicted massive casualties to the other over the years... this is just a continuation - a surge in an already bloody past...
  • RockinInCanadaRockinInCanada Posts: 2,016
    NakedClown wrote:
    THIS is what needs to be remembered. There are villians/victims on both sides - as in any battle.

    To demonize one side more than the other is absurd. Both sides have inflicted massive casualties to the other over the years... this is just a continuation - a surge in an already bloody past...

    Its sickening already...the majority being punished by the evil actions of a few...
  • VivaPalestinaVivaPalestina Posts: 225
    Suicide bombings are a pretext for the Israelis. They will do whatever they want, it doesn't matter who's in their way, from Rachel Corrie we know that quite literally.
  • ilanailana Posts: 78
    NakedClown wrote:
    THIS is what needs to be remembered. There are villians/victims on both sides - as in any battle.

    To demonize one side more than the other is absurd. Both sides have inflicted massive casualties to the other over the years... this is just a continuation - a surge in an already bloody past...
    that is nonesense, we dont need to demonise that arab side, they do that well enough for them selves
    is there really a moral equivilant, between the arrabs who deliberatlly target inocent civillians and the israeli's who target terrorist?
    i meen shall we try that with other wars, okay the natzi's and the allied forces where just as bad as the other
    9/11 oh well us, just as guilty as alquaida, or do we only make this both sides are wrong assertion when israel is concerned
  • VivaPalestinaVivaPalestina Posts: 225
    That is the point of the film, is that israel IS targeting civilians, not just Palestinians, but Americans. The film speaks for itself. The myth that israel targets terrorist is just that a MYTH.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    El_Kabong wrote:
    so you think israel is justified in shooting over ppl's heads while holding a memorial for rachel corrie and then shooting them w/ tear gas?? what was the point in that? there was no violent actions going on and they just ride up and start shooting over everyone's heads.

    i've condmened suicide bombings soooo many times here. that's teh funny thing, i can condemn both sides, yet ppl like you only condemn one

    Terrorism breeds terrorism. Come on El_Kabong don't let yourself get carried away here. The killing of Israeli civilians is a crime and should never happen, just as the illegal occupation and the killing of Palestinians should be stopped. It's the governments of Israel and the U.S that are perpetuating this slaughter, and it's the people of Israel and Palestine who are suffering as a consequence
  • rightonduderightondude Posts: 745
    El_Kabong wrote:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVtqnubZv9k&eurl=

    That's beyond insane...sewer rats lead a far better life than that.
  • NakedClownNakedClown Posts: 545
    ilana wrote:
    that is nonesense, we dont need to demonise that arab side, they do that well enough for them selves
    is there really a moral equivilant, between the arrabs who deliberatlly target inocent civillians and the israeli's who target terrorist?
    i meen shall we try that with other wars, okay the natzi's and the allied forces where just as bad as the other
    9/11 oh well us, just as guilty as alquaida, or do we only make this both sides are wrong assertion when israel is concerned

    Notice I did not say both sides were "wrong" - I said there were villians and victims on both sides of any conflict - to demonize "palestinians" or "isrealis" as a group is real nonsense. Demonize the terrorists, demonize the leaders who order the attacks all you want, etc. - but you can't say a whole group of people is at fault.

    Especially in a case like this. Yes, Hezbollah is clearly the "terrorist" organization here - but Israel has been shown to be indiscriminate in when/where it attacks at times.

    (YES, everyone has a right to defend themselves)...

    But - and here's the point - both sides have killed a substantial amount of innocent civilians. Non combatants who never ordered an attack or strapped an explosive vest to themselves. And that is the true crime.

    So no - it's not nonsense... villians and victims on both sides...
  • thankyougrandmathankyougrandma Posts: 1,182
    MLC2006 wrote:
    yeah the Israelis that get blown up in a nightclub or riding on a bus don't deserve the same human rights that all you nuts want to speak out for for the Palestinians. "oh, but strapping a bomb to themselves and killing innocent children is their only means of defending themselves". fuck that weak ass argument, maybe they shouldn't have elected Hamas to be their government.

    most people who condemn Israel also condemn Hezzbolah's kidnapping of the soldiers, while you defend the criminal action from Israel but condemn only the Hezzbolah. If there so many post about "poor Palestinians" or "poor Lebanese" and even "poor canadians" it's because there's more of these being killed than Israelis...
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • NMyTreeNMyTree Posts: 2,374
    ilana wrote:
    that is nonesense, we dont need to demonise that arab side, they do that well enough for them selves
    is there really a moral equivilant, between the arrabs who deliberatlly target inocent civillians and the israeli's who target terrorist?
    i meen shall we try that with other wars, okay the natzi's and the allied forces where just as bad as the other
    9/11 oh well us, just as guilty as alquaida, or do we only make this both sides are wrong assertion when israel is concerned

    Why are you so willing to give Israel a pass on the notion of deliberatlly targeting inocent civillians?

    I believe history has shown (and proven) that both Israel and all of it's enemies have committed attrocities against innocent civilians. They both have targeted and killed innocent civilians.

    Quite nonestly, I don't see a difference in any of the approaches. Ultimately, the result has been and continues to be, innocent civilians are being killed by all sides.

    Do you contend that all of Israel's killing of innocent civilians is purely by mistake? An error? But those innocent civilians killed by Arabs.....Hezzbolah, Palestine- are all deliberate?
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    NMyTree wrote:
    I believe history has shown (and proven) that both Israel and all of it's enemies have committed attrocities against innocent civilians. They both have targeted and killed innocent civilians.

    Quite nonestly, I don't see a difference in any of the approaches. Ultimately, the result has been and continues to be, innocent civilians are being killed by all sides.
    I agree, and when we start looking at the craziness of accepting justification for killing in any way, we might come to realise we deny our own problems, which we'd rather overlook. "your killing is worse than my killing" is a ludicrous smokescreen that distracts each party from looking at their own accountability.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • danmacdanmac Posts: 387
    NakedClown wrote:
    THIS is what needs to be remembered. There are villians/victims on both sides - as in any battle.

    To demonize one side more than the other is absurd. Both sides have inflicted massive casualties to the other over the years... this is just a continuation - a surge in an already bloody past...


    No. One side has inflicted, using direct military action, five times the fatalities the other, using direct 'terrorist' activity, suicide bombing etc, has.

    And please do not believe that this is a 3000 yr struggle. The 'bloody past' you refer to only goes back 60 years, since the west, for strategic reasons, under the UN in 1948, granted the jews a homeland. For the thousands of years before that, Palestinians and Jews lived together under various empires; roman, persian, crusader, persian, ottoman, british.

    What Byrnzie said above is the most sensible thing i've heard all day.
    A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects
    are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
    god-fearing and pious: Aristotle

    Viva Zapatista!
  • NakedClownNakedClown Posts: 545
    danmac wrote:
    No. One side has inflicted, using direct military action, five times the fatalities the other, using direct 'terrorist' activity, suicide bombing etc, has.

    And please do not believe that this is a 3000 yr struggle. The 'bloody past' you refer to only goes back 60 years, since the west, for strategic reasons, under the UN in 1948, granted the jews a homeland. For the thousands of years before that, Palestinians and Jews lived together under various empires; roman, persian, crusader, persian, ottoman, british.

    What Byrnzie said above is the most sensible thing i've heard all day.

    I don't recall saying it went back 3,000 years???

    Anyway, words put in mouth aside, my whole point in this thread - after reading the initial post by someone who spent his entire day yesterday demonizing Israelis in countless threads - was that there were villians and victims on both sides - and that both sides truly have a share of the blame in this conflict. Not necessarily an equal share of the blame, but it would be naive to say that mistakes and atrocities have not been inflicted by both sides.

    That is all.

    But thanks for the history lesson chief.

    (I, too, agree with what Byrnzie said EDIT: but it is still possible to point out the "warts" of both sides)
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    danmac wrote:
    No. One side has inflicted, using direct military action, five times the fatalities the other, using direct 'terrorist' activity, suicide bombing etc, has.

    And please do not believe that this is a 3000 yr struggle. The 'bloody past' you refer to only goes back 60 years, since the west, for strategic reasons, under the UN in 1948, granted the jews a homeland. For the thousands of years before that, Palestinians and Jews lived together under various empires; roman, persian, crusader, persian, ottoman, british.

    What Byrnzie said above is the most sensible thing i've heard all day.

    Thanks man. Respect.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,445
    El_Kabong wrote:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVtqnubZv9k&eurl=


    Funny, you see it black and white. Too bad it isn't.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    angelica wrote:
    I agree, and when we start looking at the craziness of accepting justification for killing in any way, we might come to realise we deny our own problems, which we'd rather overlook. "your killing is worse than my killing" is a ludicrous smokescreen that distracts each party from looking at their own accountability.

    I believe as well that all killing is horrible, especially when it involves the innocent. But I do question what the Arabs are supposed to in the face of such force and continual occupation of more and more territory...give up their right to exist, just lay down so the can be mowed down more easily? There is no answer for them? Where do they go? What do they do? Maybe they should knock their own homes down for the Israels? It hurts me very deeply to see these people being exterminated while my country aids and supports this theft and murder. They just keep taking more....
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • RockinInCanadaRockinInCanada Posts: 2,016
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I believe as well that all killing is horrible, especially when it involves the innocent. But I do question what the Arabs are supposed to in the face of such force and continual occupation of more and more territory...give up their right to exist, just lay down so the can be mowed down more easily? There is no answer for them? Where do they go? What do they do? Maybe they should knock their own homes down for the Israels? It hurts me very deeply to see these people being exterminated while my country aids and supports this theft and murder. They just keep taking more....


    The logic people around here dumbfounds me lately, people saying Israel was attacked and their actions were justified because their home land was under seige...I hope these people realize that logic can also be used on them....another question that comes to mind is how come these people who 100% support Israel (instead of the postition of neutrality...but who wants neutralilty it looks bad on TV....blood gets more ratings than deliberations anyhow)...get away with not even taking a minute to examine the abuses against Muslims in the area...when we all how the Muslims have acted to the Israelities....fuck you would think Israel is an innocent angel when it is not...its got jsut as much blood on their hands as does radical Islam...we only hear the one side here....

    On another note I'm sick of people saying one side supports Hezbollah because they disagree with the actions of Israel. Well you know what all we hear about in western media is how bad Israel gets treated over and over again...myself for example think that western civiilizaiton needs a crash course in how Israel has done equally as many bad things...it goes BOTH ways...there is no good or bad guy in this...

    Its funny cause for me I am neutral, I want an end to the bloodshed ON BOTH SIDES and something done about this....but just like any other time a certain demographic that goes against the war they are instantly labelled Liberals...once again the branding of one political thought deserves your either a leftie or a rightie...fucking sick of this game the war mongers on here preach....they need to realize us here who are here that are openly against the Israel attack also critize Hezbollah; we are simply stating there are two sides of the story here not just the one we get force fed every fucking day ......once again the pathetic attempt to catergorize anything against their fear/war mongering ways...

    The people here who are against the Israel attack KNOW THERE ARE TWO SIDES OF THE STORY...now if the real blind on the board open their eyes and realize that maybe collectively something can get done about this if they simply learn to deal with the fact that both sides are just as to blame and not just one...in this battle there is no good or evil...

    Im sorry for the rant, Im one person sick of the war mongering trolls (two come to mind....loved the quote "beautiful military") on this message board spewing their hate, makes me sick....Im sorry but this is a major issue and some people want to make it a "your with us or against us" bullshit game...instead of coming to grips with reality that both sides are wronged in some way or another....
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    Rockin'InCanada wrote:
    The logic people around here dumbfounds me lately, people saying Israel was attacked and their actions were justified because their home land was under seige...I hope these people realize that logic can also be used on them....another question that comes to mind is how come these people who 100% support Israel (instead of the postition of neutrality...but who wants neutralilty it looks bad on TV....blood gets more ratings than deliberations anyhow)...get away with not even taking a minute to examine the abuses against Muslims in the area...when we all how the Muslims have acted to the Israelities....fuck you would think Israel is an innocent angel when it is not...its got jsut as much blood on their hands as does radical Islam...we only hear the one side here....

    On another note I'm sick of people saying one side supports Hezbollah because they disagree with the actions of Israel. Well you know what all we hear about in western media is how bad Israel gets treated over and over again...myself for example think that western civiilizaiton needs a crash course in how Israel has done equally as many bad things...it goes BOTH ways...there is no good or bad guy in this...

    Its funny cause for me I am neutral, I want an end to the bloodshed ON BOTH SIDES and something done about this....but just like any other time a certain demographic that goes against the war they are instantly labelled Liberals...once again the branding of one political thought deserves your either a leftie or a rightie...fucking sick of this game the war mongers on here preach....they need to realize us here who are here that are openly against the Israel attack also critize Hezbollah; we are simply stating there are two sides of the story here not just the one we get force fed every fucking day ......once again the pathetic attempt to catergorize anything against their fear/war mongering ways...

    The people here who are against the Israel attack KNOW THERE ARE TWO SIDES OF THE STORY...now if the real blind on the board open their eyes and realize that maybe collectively something can get done about this if they simply learn to deal with the fact that both sides are just as to blame and not just one...in this battle there is no good or evil...

    Im sorry for the rant, Im one person sick of the war mongering trolls (two come to mind....loved the quote "beautiful military") on this message board spewing their hate, makes me sick....Im sorry but this is a major issue and some people want to make it a "your with us or against us" bullshit game...instead of coming to grips with reality that both sides are wronged in some way or another....

    Some people (maybe most) condemn both sides ... There are a few that keep it pretty one-sided, which in turn makes the freakjobs on the other side irate.
  • shirazshiraz Posts: 528
    I was angry about the title of the thread - " those poor israeli victims...", not about the video. Like I said, its demagogic, disgusting, disrespecting, full with contempt, and indicating that our lifes worth less than other's.
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    shiraz wrote:
    I was angry about the title of the thread - " those poor israeli victims...", not about the video. Like I said, its demagogic, disgusting, disrespecting, full with contempt, and indicating that our lifes worth less than other's.


    how the hell does it imply an israeli's life is worth less???

    what it was meant to portray is it's not just a simple matter of 'self-defense' by israel, that they antagonize the other side just as much.

    what's funny is i've condemned BOTH sides, so far the only i can remembr seeing say anything similiar from the other side is reborn. so which side is making it seem like the others lives are worth less? israel kills 5 palestinian kids for every 1 israeli child killed...and even in this last week israel has killed at least 2 ppl for ever 1 israeli killed. not to even mention israels idea of collective punishment.

    i never indicated an israeli's life is worth less than anyone else's...that is for your cohorts like illana to say (but the other way around). i wuold like if you could explain how i did this.
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Funny, you see it black and white. Too bad it isn't.

    the only thing i see black and white is how pretty much everyone on my side can admit both sides are doing wrong while the other side can't (w/ very few exceptions)

    what's black and white is how the idf will swoop in and start firing over ppl's heads then shoot tear gas at them just for holding a memorial for an american that they purposely ran over w/ a bulldozer.
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    NakedClown wrote:
    - after reading the initial post by someone who spent his entire day yesterday demonizing Israelis in countless threads

    i did? how did i 'demonize' them??
    NakedClown wrote:
    - - was that there were villians and victims on both sides - and that both sides truly have a share of the blame in this conflict. Not necessarily an equal share of the blame, but it would be naive to say that mistakes and atrocities have not been inflicted by both sides.

    That is all.

    hmm, sounds like a few of the posts i've made in the past few days...
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    i wonder what these ppl did to deserve this reaction??

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRse0lXv0Ww
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • thankyougrandmathankyougrandma Posts: 1,182
    Rockin'InCanada wrote:
    The logic people around here dumbfounds me lately, people saying Israel was attacked and their actions were justified because their home land was under seige...I hope these people realize that logic can also be used on them....another question that comes to mind is how come these people who 100% support Israel (instead of the postition of neutrality...but who wants neutralilty it looks bad on TV....blood gets more ratings than deliberations anyhow)...get away with not even taking a minute to examine the abuses against Muslims in the area...when we all how the Muslims have acted to the Israelities....fuck you would think Israel is an innocent angel when it is not...its got jsut as much blood on their hands as does radical Islam...we only hear the one side here....

    On another note I'm sick of people saying one side supports Hezbollah because they disagree with the actions of Israel. Well you know what all we hear about in western media is how bad Israel gets treated over and over again...myself for example think that western civiilizaiton needs a crash course in how Israel has done equally as many bad things...it goes BOTH ways...there is no good or bad guy in this...

    Its funny cause for me I am neutral, I want an end to the bloodshed ON BOTH SIDES and something done about this....but just like any other time a certain demographic that goes against the war they are instantly labelled Liberals...once again the branding of one political thought deserves your either a leftie or a rightie...fucking sick of this game the war mongers on here preach....they need to realize us here who are here that are openly against the Israel attack also critize Hezbollah; we are simply stating there are two sides of the story here not just the one we get force fed every fucking day ......once again the pathetic attempt to catergorize anything against their fear/war mongering ways...

    The people here who are against the Israel attack KNOW THERE ARE TWO SIDES OF THE STORY...now if the real blind on the board open their eyes and realize that maybe collectively something can get done about this if they simply learn to deal with the fact that both sides are just as to blame and not just one...in this battle there is no good or evil...

    Im sorry for the rant, Im one person sick of the war mongering trolls (two come to mind....loved the quote "beautiful military") on this message board spewing their hate, makes me sick....Im sorry but this is a major issue and some people want to make it a "your with us or against us" bullshit game...instead of coming to grips with reality that both sides are wronged in some way or another....

    great great post, i share your thought about this: "On another note I'm sick of people saying one side supports Hezbollah because they disagree with the actions of Israel"

    I'm sick and tired of it too.
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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