those poor israeli victims...

El_Kabong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVtqnubZv9k&eurl=

MLC2006

yeah the Israelis that get blown up in a nightclub or riding on a bus don't deserve the same human rights that all you nuts want to speak out for for the Palestinians. "oh, but strapping a bomb to themselves and killing innocent children is their only means of defending themselves". fuck that weak ass argument, maybe they shouldn't have elected Hamas to be their government.

El_Kabong

MLC2006 wrote:

yeah the Israelis that get blown up in a nightclub or riding on a bus don't deserve the same human rights that all you nuts want to speak out for for the Palestinians. "oh, but strapping a bomb to themselves and killing innocent children is their only means of defending themselves". fuck that weak ass argument, maybe they shouldn't have elected Hamas to be their government.

so you think israel is justified in shooting over ppl's heads while holding a memorial for rachel corrie and then shooting them w/ tear gas?? what was the point in that? there was no violent actions going on and they just ride up and start shooting over everyone's heads.

i've condmened suicide bombings soooo many times here. that's teh funny thing, i can condemn both sides, yet ppl like you only condemn one

MLC2006

then please give me some of your past posts where you've condemned any of the Palestinians actions, because all I've seen is anti-Jew rhetoric and it is getting quite old.

El_Kabong

MLC2006 wrote:

then please give me some of your past posts where you've condemned any of the Palestinians actions, because all I've seen is anti-Jew rhetoric and it is getting quite old.

well, here's one from just the other day
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?p=3509403&#post3509403

i've condemned suicide bombing and the targeting of civilians (on both sides) several times, i'm not gonna waste more time searching for it. wouldn't ya think someone who's antiwar would be?

anti-jew rhetoric? what's next, i'm a anti-semite? please, there is a difference between a government and their actions compared to the average citizen. being jewish has nothing to do w/ any of it.

as i've said before, i can condemn both sides see;
suicide bombing is wrong
any targeting of civilians is a horrible crime

can you denounce and condemn anything israel does?

keeponrockin

Both sides are equally as wrong... This video sickens me.

shiraz

El_Kabong wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVtqnubZv9k&eurl=

Your headline is disgusting, demagogic and most of all - pointless. What did you try to say, that our lifes worth less than otheres because of Israel's actions? That we deserve to die? What's with all of this contempt & disrespect?!? We are also burying people today!

NakedClown

shiraz wrote:

Your headline is disgusting, demagogic and most of all - pointless. What did you try to say, that our lifes worth less than otheres because of Israel's actions? That we deserve to die? What's with all of this contempt & disrespect?!? We are also burying people today!

THIS is what needs to be remembered. There are villians/victims on both sides - as in any battle.

To demonize one side more than the other is absurd. Both sides have inflicted massive casualties to the other over the years... this is just a continuation - a surge in an already bloody past...

RockinInCanada

NakedClown wrote:

THIS is what needs to be remembered. There are villians/victims on both sides - as in any battle.

To demonize one side more than the other is absurd. Both sides have inflicted massive casualties to the other over the years... this is just a continuation - a surge in an already bloody past...

Its sickening already...the majority being punished by the evil actions of a few...

VivaPalestina

Suicide bombings are a pretext for the Israelis. They will do whatever they want, it doesn't matter who's in their way, from Rachel Corrie we know that quite literally.

ilana

NakedClown wrote:

THIS is what needs to be remembered. There are villians/victims on both sides - as in any battle.

To demonize one side more than the other is absurd. Both sides have inflicted massive casualties to the other over the years... this is just a continuation - a surge in an already bloody past...

that is nonesense, we dont need to demonise that arab side, they do that well enough for them selves
is there really a moral equivilant, between the arrabs who deliberatlly target inocent civillians and the israeli's who target terrorist?
i meen shall we try that with other wars, okay the natzi's and the allied forces where just as bad as the other
9/11 oh well us, just as guilty as alquaida, or do we only make this both sides are wrong assertion when israel is concerned

VivaPalestina

That is the point of the film, is that israel IS targeting civilians, not just Palestinians, but Americans. The film speaks for itself. The myth that israel targets terrorist is just that a MYTH.

Byrnzie

El_Kabong wrote:

so you think israel is justified in shooting over ppl's heads while holding a memorial for rachel corrie and then shooting them w/ tear gas?? what was the point in that? there was no violent actions going on and they just ride up and start shooting over everyone's heads.

i've condmened suicide bombings soooo many times here. that's teh funny thing, i can condemn both sides, yet ppl like you only condemn one

Terrorism breeds terrorism. Come on El_Kabong don't let yourself get carried away here. The killing of Israeli civilians is a crime and should never happen, just as the illegal occupation and the killing of Palestinians should be stopped. It's the governments of Israel and the U.S that are perpetuating this slaughter, and it's the people of Israel and Palestine who are suffering as a consequence

rightondude

El_Kabong wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVtqnubZv9k&eurl=

That's beyond insane...sewer rats lead a far better life than that.

NakedClown

ilana wrote:

that is nonesense, we dont need to demonise that arab side, they do that well enough for them selves
is there really a moral equivilant, between the arrabs who deliberatlly target inocent civillians and the israeli's who target terrorist?
i meen shall we try that with other wars, okay the natzi's and the allied forces where just as bad as the other
9/11 oh well us, just as guilty as alquaida, or do we only make this both sides are wrong assertion when israel is concerned

Notice I did not say both sides were "wrong" - I said there were villians and victims on both sides of any conflict - to demonize "palestinians" or "isrealis" as a group is real nonsense. Demonize the terrorists, demonize the leaders who order the attacks all you want, etc. - but you can't say a whole group of people is at fault.

Especially in a case like this. Yes, Hezbollah is clearly the "terrorist" organization here - but Israel has been shown to be indiscriminate in when/where it attacks at times.

(YES, everyone has a right to defend themselves)...

But - and here's the point - both sides have killed a substantial amount of innocent civilians. Non combatants who never ordered an attack or strapped an explosive vest to themselves. And that is the true crime.

So no - it's not nonsense... villians and victims on both sides...

thankyougrandma

MLC2006 wrote:

yeah the Israelis that get blown up in a nightclub or riding on a bus don't deserve the same human rights that all you nuts want to speak out for for the Palestinians. "oh, but strapping a bomb to themselves and killing innocent children is their only means of defending themselves". fuck that weak ass argument, maybe they shouldn't have elected Hamas to be their government.

most people who condemn Israel also condemn Hezzbolah's kidnapping of the soldiers, while you defend the criminal action from Israel but condemn only the Hezzbolah. If there so many post about "poor Palestinians" or "poor Lebanese" and even "poor canadians" it's because there's more of these being killed than Israelis...

NMyTree

ilana wrote:

that is nonesense, we dont need to demonise that arab side, they do that well enough for them selves
is there really a moral equivilant, between the arrabs who deliberatlly target inocent civillians and the israeli's who target terrorist?
i meen shall we try that with other wars, okay the natzi's and the allied forces where just as bad as the other
9/11 oh well us, just as guilty as alquaida, or do we only make this both sides are wrong assertion when israel is concerned

Why are you so willing to give Israel a pass on the notion of deliberatlly targeting inocent civillians?

I believe history has shown (and proven) that both Israel and all of it's enemies have committed attrocities against innocent civilians. They both have targeted and killed innocent civilians.

Quite nonestly, I don't see a difference in any of the approaches. Ultimately, the result has been and continues to be, innocent civilians are being killed by all sides.

Do you contend that all of Israel's killing of innocent civilians is purely by mistake? An error? But those innocent civilians killed by Arabs.....Hezzbolah, Palestine- are all deliberate?

angelica

NMyTree wrote:

I believe history has shown (and proven) that both Israel and all of it's enemies have committed attrocities against innocent civilians. They both have targeted and killed innocent civilians.

Quite nonestly, I don't see a difference in any of the approaches. Ultimately, the result has been and continues to be, innocent civilians are being killed by all sides.

I agree, and when we start looking at the craziness of accepting justification for killing in any way, we might come to realise we deny our own problems, which we'd rather overlook. "your killing is worse than my killing" is a ludicrous smokescreen that distracts each party from looking at their own accountability.

danmac

NakedClown wrote:

THIS is what needs to be remembered. There are villians/victims on both sides - as in any battle.

To demonize one side more than the other is absurd. Both sides have inflicted massive casualties to the other over the years... this is just a continuation - a surge in an already bloody past...

No. One side has inflicted, using direct military action, five times the fatalities the other, using direct 'terrorist' activity, suicide bombing etc, has.

And please do not believe that this is a 3000 yr struggle. The 'bloody past' you refer to only goes back 60 years, since the west, for strategic reasons, under the UN in 1948, granted the jews a homeland. For the thousands of years before that, Palestinians and Jews lived together under various empires; roman, persian, crusader, persian, ottoman, british.

What Byrnzie said above is the most sensible thing i've heard all day.

NakedClown

danmac wrote:

No. One side has inflicted, using direct military action, five times the fatalities the other, using direct 'terrorist' activity, suicide bombing etc, has.

And please do not believe that this is a 3000 yr struggle. The 'bloody past' you refer to only goes back 60 years, since the west, for strategic reasons, under the UN in 1948, granted the jews a homeland. For the thousands of years before that, Palestinians and Jews lived together under various empires; roman, persian, crusader, persian, ottoman, british.

What Byrnzie said above is the most sensible thing i've heard all day.

I don't recall saying it went back 3,000 years???

Anyway, words put in mouth aside, my whole point in this thread - after reading the initial post by someone who spent his entire day yesterday demonizing Israelis in countless threads - was that there were villians and victims on both sides - and that both sides truly have a share of the blame in this conflict. Not necessarily an equal share of the blame, but it would be naive to say that mistakes and atrocities have not been inflicted by both sides.

That is all.

But thanks for the history lesson chief.

(I, too, agree with what Byrnzie said EDIT: but it is still possible to point out the "warts" of both sides)

Byrnzie

danmac wrote:

No. One side has inflicted, using direct military action, five times the fatalities the other, using direct 'terrorist' activity, suicide bombing etc, has.

And please do not believe that this is a 3000 yr struggle. The 'bloody past' you refer to only goes back 60 years, since the west, for strategic reasons, under the UN in 1948, granted the jews a homeland. For the thousands of years before that, Palestinians and Jews lived together under various empires; roman, persian, crusader, persian, ottoman, british.

What Byrnzie said above is the most sensible thing i've heard all day.

Thanks man. Respect.