Higher Minimum Wages

desandrews

angelica wrote:

I'm the first person to believe in empowering others, paving the way, and showing them it can be done. At the same time, I also acknowledge, understand and appreciate the gravity of why people succumb to "that" and cannot find the way as you do. I wonder if you understand those variables.


And what do you tell those who are unable to succeed due to psychological and environmental factors?

I don't think I agree with the statement that people are unable to succeed... They may have made decisions that prevented them from succeeding but everyone is capABLE. Furthermore, I acknowledge and understand the gravity, but I don't appreciate it, I don't respect it's power as though it is a force that cannot be overcome.

I'm not sure we're on the same page. Well, we're on the same page but maybe not paying attention to the same paragraph. I replied to HeinekenHelen's post while you really took the whole discussion to a more philosophical view. My comments should not be viewed in relation to yours, only as a rebuttal to HH's claim.

However, to answer your question, I usually tell them to do something. Literally, I say do something, I don't care what, just something. My friend worked the horrible labor job that was referred to here earlier, but he started off making twice the minimum wage, within months made 4 times the minimum wage, within months from that he moved into a management position and now has a company truck, company cell phone, the works. He's still wading in shit all day but he's doing just fine for himself and is no longer a waste of space. It's really not that hard in my opinion. People are scarred, their fucked up, their feelings are hurt, but who cares, that's what I tell myself (about myself), why not say it to others. My dad, the genious from earlier, actually somewhat got it together recently and went back to school (paid for once again by the gov't, everybody can do it) and now is a chef at a hotel. Doesn't make much but it's more than minimum wage and he loves it.

So in summary, I say, do something. It worked on me. :-)

angelica

farfromglorified wrote:

I'm still trying to understand this "impasse"......

Okay, wait, I apologize for being flip, here. It seems you've said you are only willing to focus on economics with these economics related issues. And the problem I see is that you then expect to be able to take economics and apply that to humans within human-based societies, which makes the then relevent societal and psychological systems of equal VALUE in the equation we are addressing. Therefore, if you opt to continue to focus on economics, alone, you will not come to an understanding of the situation.

angelica

desandrews wrote:

I don't think I agree with the statement that people are unable to succeed... They may have made decisions that prevented them from succeeding but everyone is capABLE. Furthermore, I acknowledge and understand the gravity, but I don't appreciate it, I don't respect it's power as though it is a force that cannot be overcome.

I'm not sure we're on the same page. Well, we're on the same page but maybe not paying attention to the same paragraph. I replied to HeinekenHelen's post while you really took the whole discussion to a more philosophical view. My comments should not be viewed in relation to yours, only as a rebuttal to HH's claim.

However, to answer your question, I usually tell them to do something. Literally, I say do something, I don't care what, just something. My friend worked the horrible labor job that was referred to here earlier, but he started off making twice the minimum wage, within months made 4 times the minimum wage, within months from that he moved into a management position and now has a company truck, company cell phone, the works. He's still wading in shit all day but he's doing just fine for himself and is no longer a waste of space. It's really not that hard in my opinion. People are scarred, their fucked up, their feelings are hurt, but who cares, that's what I tell myself (about myself), why not say it to others. My dad, the genious from earlier, actually somewhat got it together recently and went back to school (paid for once again by the gov't, everybody can do it) and now is a chef at a hotel. Doesn't make much but it's more than minimum wage and he loves it.

So in summary, I say, do something. It worked on me. :-)

Right. It's quite clear you do not understand the psychological and sociological issues involved. Fair enough.

The idea if people just do what you do, or whomever, then they will succeed, is about you and your opinion, rather than about objective understanding of the psychological and sociological issues.

Interestingly, I agree that people are capABLE when they can clear up the very real issues that hold them back. And you are correct, they are not insurmountable forces. However in order to be surmounted, such issues need to be acknowledged, appreciated and addressed. As you must know if you have done so for yourself.

farfromglorified

angelica wrote:

Okay, wait, I apologize for being flip, here. It seems you've said you are only willing to focus on economics with these economics related issues. And the problem I see is that you then expect to be able to take economics and apply that to humans within human-based societies, which makes the then relevent societal and psychological systems of equal VALUE in the equation we are addressing. Therefore, if you opt to continue to focus on economics, alone, you will not come to an understanding of the situation.

That's silly. It's like suggesting that a focus on gravity can't be applied to "humans" within "human-based societies".

Look, I'm not discounting the other factors in total, but you can't expand one side of the equation without expanding the other. If we expand beyond human economic value, we need to expand beyond human remuneration. Otherwise, the argument is ridiculous. If people are to be paid beyond their economic value, then I might as well sit here and demand you all give me all your money just because I did something nice for someone at sometime, or because I try hard or because my foot hurts.

angelica

farfromglorified wrote:

That's silly. It's like suggesting that a focus on gravity can't be applied to "humans" within "human-based societies".

Look, I'm not discounting the other factors in total, but you can't expand one side of the equation without expanding the other. If we expand beyond human economic value, we need to expand beyond human remuneration. Otherwise, the argument is ridiculous. If people are to be paid beyond their economic value, then I might as well sit here and demand you all give me all your money just because I did something nice for someone at sometime, or because I try hard or because my foot hurts.

Gravity can certainly be applied to humans within society. However humans entail psyches, and human societies are about human societies. So if we minimize humans and societies to objects for simplicity sake, we lose understanding.

It's actually like saying the act of sex is about human genitals, all the while discounting the humans who possess the genitals. But, yes, I hear you find this view silly, and hence there not being much purpose going beyond the basic disagreement.

desandrews

angelica wrote:

Right. It's quite clear you do not understand the psychological and sociological issues involved. Fair enough.

The idea if people just do what you do, or whomever, then they will succeed, is about you and your opinion, rather than about objective understanding of the psychological and sociological issues.

Interestingly, I agree that people are capABLE when they can clear up the very real issues that hold them back. And you are correct, they are not insurmountable forces. However in order to be surmounted, such issues need to be acknowledged, appreciated and addressed. As you must know if you have done so for yourself.

I spent the first 3 years in college taking philosophy classes trying to understand. Then I decided to do. I still like to understand but I also like diving in, acting and just seeing what happens. I'm not saying everyone has to do like I did, I'm just saying do something, anything. Do you know anyone "stuck" in a minimum wage job? That's the issue here, that's what I'm talking about at least. We spend a lot of time talking but if we forget about the fact that we're poor, that our parents suck, that the government's wasting all of our money, that murderers exist, that the air is polluted etc. etc. and just go apply for jobs, eventually you'll get one or you'll realize that for some reason you're not getting one, then you focus on that reason, eliminate that gap and go back and apply some more. Action. It will get you there. Maybe you understand the psychological and sociological issues too much. It makes for an easy excuse. I prefer the, "my life is not the worst in the world, so I'm going to quit bitching and do something about it route."

angelica

desandrews wrote:

Maybe you understand the psychological and sociological issues too much. It makes for an easy excuse. I prefer the, "my life is not the worst in the world, so I'm going to quit bitching and do something about it route."

The word "excuse" definitely indicates where you are coming from on this subject. Which is exactly my point here: a persons personal judgment of a situation is somewhat different than objective study that strives to be unbiased and informed through understanding. You are certainly entitled to your opinion as am I.

farfromglorified

angelica wrote:

Gravity can certainly be applied to humans within society. However humans entail psyches, and human societies are about human societies. So if we minimize humans and societies to objects for simplicity sake, we lose understanding.

I'm not "minimizing humans and societies to objects for simplicity sake". I'm responding directly to the issue of remuneration for labor, an economic concern.

If we want to talk about remuneration for "human value", let's do it. Let's get crazy. Give me $100 for this post. It no longer matters whether or not it has value to you. All that matters is that I have some subjective value to someone.

It's actually like saying the act of sex is about human genitals, all the while discounting the humans who possess the genitals. But, yes, I hear you find this view silly, and hence there not being much purpose going beyond the basic disagreement.

Your analogy doesn't map well, because I'm not talking about "sex" (all human interaction and exchange). I'm simply talking about economic exchange in the context of economic renumeration. If the context here was broader than the minimum wage, certainly a bigger spectrum of focus would be valid.

soulsinging

angelica wrote:

And what do you tell those who are unable to succeed due to psychological and environmental factors?

darwinism's a bitch.

surferdude

soulsinging wrote:

darwinism's a bitch.

I think angela and Ahnimus would prefer you use a gender neutral term.

angelica

farfromglorified wrote:

I'm not "minimizing humans and societies to objects for simplicity sake".

Pardon me, then, you are minimizing humans for the remuneration for labour, an economic concern or whatever.

If we want to talk about remuneration for "human value", let's do it. Let's get crazy. Give me $100 for this post. It no longer matters whether or not it has value to you. All that matters is that I have some subjective value to someone.

Your analogy doesn't map well, because I'm not talking about "sex" (all human interaction and exchange). I'm simply talking about economic exchange in the context of economic renumeration. If the context here was broader than the minimum wage, certainly a bigger spectrum of focus would be valid.

The basic point is that you and I have opinions here, and the worlds we both live in represent a compromise between these views, in order to realistically deal with the "impasse". Which I'm fine with.

desandrews

angelica wrote:

The word "excuse" definitely indicates where you are coming from on this subject. Which is exactly my point here: a persons personal judgment of a situation is somewhat different than objective study that strives to be unbiased and informed through understanding. You are certainly entitled to your opinion as am I.

I'm an empiricist. I can't escape my experiences any better than you but I can certainly view the results of those experiences and replicate the ones with positive outcomes and eliminate those with negative ones. The bridge you're trying to grap won't come easily, good luck.

angelica

soulsinging wrote:

darwinism's a bitch.

Yes it is, and fortunately it's something everyone in this thread must deal with--those who succeed, as well. What I don't accept is when people blame others for the problems in their lives, which has been evident among the "successful" people in this thread. It's about the guy "out there". As long as I see that happening, I recognize some unacknowledged psychological issues.

angelica

desandrews wrote:

I'm an empiricist. I can't escape my experiences any better than you but I can certainly view the results of those experiences and replicate the ones with positive outcomes and eliminate those with negative ones. The bridge you're trying to grap won't come easily, good luck.

What bridge is that?

farfromglorified

angelica wrote:

Pardon me, then, you are minimizing humans for the remuneration for labour, an economic concern or whatever.

Ok, help me out here. How is it "minimizing" when I fixate on remuneration for labor, but not "minimizing" for anyone else in this thread to do the same? Are those who believe in a minimum wage not "minimizing" things as they focus only on the income of an individual? If not, why?

The basic point is that you and I have opinions here, and the worlds we both live in represent a compromise between these views, in order to realistically deal with the "impasse". Which I'm fine with.

There is no "impasse", in my opinion. I'll continue to pay people what I believe their labor is worth so long as they agree to it. And I'll continue to ignore these laws and let my employees determine whether or not the wage I offer is fair and appropriately compensates them for their value, be it as a person, a laborer, or however they choose to assess their worth.

desandrews

angelica wrote:

What bridge is that?

That whole objective study completely devoid of any personal judgment and bias.

That's why I ended up in Math, you can actually look at something without bias and personal judgement and get somewhere, not going to happen with social issues, in my opinion :-)

angelica

farfromglorified wrote:

Ok, help me out here. How is it "minimizing" when I fixate on remuneration for labor, but not "minimizing" for anyone else in this thread to do the same? Are those who believe in a minimum wage not "minimizing" things as they focus only on the income of an individual? If not, why?

I see your perspective as well. I see a LOT of blame coming from the other side, for sure. I agree that the "other side" minimizes blindly, too, under the auspices of helping. I thought you knew I thought that--in all of these arguments, when it's side against side. They are both two sides of the same coin, and yet short of being the integrated sides as the whole and therefore realistic coin.

There is no "impasse", in my opinion. I'll continue to pay people what I believe their labor is worth so long as they agree to it. And I'll continue to ignore these laws and let my employees determine whether or not the wage I offer is fair and appropriately compensates them for their value, be it as a person, a laborer, or however they choose to assess their worth.

That's fine. The real impasse here is in opinion. In the world, people and goverments evolve and adapt based on what works and what does not. Which includes the economics level, but also includes all the other ones, too, integrated as LIFE.

angelica

desandrews wrote:

That whole objective study completely devoid of any personal judgment and bias.

That's why I ended up in Math, you can actually look at something without bias and personal judgement and get somewhere, not going to happen with social issues, in my opinion :-)

Well thanks for the good luck then. It's not always simple, and it's surely not straightforward, but I'm surely capABLE and it IS surmountABLE. And the rewards are thrilling.

Heineken Helen

desandrews wrote:

I'm not sure we're on the same page. Well, we're on the same page but maybe not paying attention to the same paragraph. I replied to HeinekenHelen's post while you really took the whole discussion to a more philosophical view. My comments should not be viewed in relation to yours, only as a rebuttal to HH's claim.

well, Angelica's just saying what I wanted to say... except a million times better than I ever could

You seem to think everyone has some kind of equal chance to get to the top? Ok, I will agree to a certain extent that success can come from ANYWHERE but not everybody has an equal chance, some have to work about 100 times harder than others. There's always the 'fortunate son' syndrome... and then you have the ten year old girls in Africa who have to raise their siblings cos their parents are dead. It's pretty simple really when ya think of it that way.

desandrews

desandrews wrote:

Who cares if everybody doesn't have an EQUAL chance...

Heineken Helen wrote:

You seem to think everyone has some kind of equal chance to get to the top? Ok, I will agree to a certain extent that success can come from ANYWHERE but not everybody has an equal chance, some have to work about 100 times harder than others.

I wonder if you read my post.?.?.?.