It is hard. If the people being paid minimum wage were being paid a wage that "reflects an individuals contribution to the overall production", there would be no need for a minimum wage.
is the concept of minimum wage also related to the surplus availability of labour? ... i mean ... i can make a fortune on a product and pay someone minimum wage if there are plenty of people who are willing to accept the pay regardless of that individual's contribution to the product ...
A raise in the minimum wage results in a raise for everyone based upon what exactly? Based upon the whim of the government, it's not data/production driven.
but the gov't sets the minimum wage as well ... what is that based on? ... i assumed it was related to the costs of living ... if you're going to have a minimum wage to begin with and not let "the market" dictate that wage - it has to be adjusted to something ...
as said before - i'm no economist by any stretch - just posing the thoughts that come to my mind ...
Would you rather fund the disenfranchised via govt payments or the diminishment of society ( I am sure you and I could more reasonably fund it by giving up our dough at gunpoint (G-d forbid), as opposed to the funds going thru govt processes!)
I'd rather have neither. And I think that's possible. I don't see it as an either-or situation.
I am all for individual freedoms, but if the exercise of said freedoms diminish the enjoyment of others, and if people don't realize that, where does it get us?
I'm not sure I understand your question. "Individual freedom" isn't some blanket statement wherein all behaviors are justified. A person who uses their "individual freedom" to prevent someone else from expressing their own has demonstrated that "individual freedom" has no value to them. So society has a right to seek justice in the case wherein someone acts in a manner demonstrating that they have no interests in freedom, happiness, or life -- the core human rights and values.
Those cases are the exception, however, not the rule. Most people use their freedoms in an exceptionally constructive manner. I fail to see why those people should have to bribe and steal in order to prevent bribery and theft.
Inflation. A raise is individual. this is across the board, if you are at the bottom, you are at the bottom for a reason. Rasing the floor eventually raises the cost of everything effectively negating any positive impact of that rise in pay level.
edited for space
This is one reason I'm all about changing the taxation system. I'm all about teaching people how to live frugally, sensibly, responsibly. If you aren't living in debt you are never poor in this nation.
but inflation happens regardless of minimum wage ... so, while the cost of goods go up - how are people at a low wage supposed to compensate?
is the concept of minimum wage also related to the surplus availability of labour? ... i mean ... i can make a fortune on a product and pay someone minimum wage if there are plenty of people who are willing to accept the pay regardless of that individual's contribution to the product ...
If there are "plenty of people who are willing to accept the pay", then that pay is either at or close to the value of that labor. I'm confused as to how that statement is linked to this question:
"is the concept of minimum wage also related to the surplus availability of labour?"
Are you asking if the minimum wage contributes to unemployment or are you asking if the minimum wage contributes to situations wherein workers don't labor as hard as they could, or are you asking something entirely different?
but inflation happens regardless of minimum wage ... so, while the cost of goods go up - how are people at a low wage supposed to compensate?
increase their work experience, abilities etc. No one should be settling for a minimum wage job. Yeah you might start at Mcdonalds as a fry cook (they pay about 7.75 I think) but in 3-6 months given the average Mc'd's turnover...you're a manager. Same thing with bagging groceries.
Once you're a manager, you have management experience and so on and so forth.
There are plenty of horrid companies to work for and plenty of great ones... I think Whole Foods and Home Depot have profit sharing for every employee. I know where I'd be bagging groceries or slicing fish.
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
If there are "plenty of people who are willing to accept the pay", then that pay is either at or close to the value of that labor. I'm confused as to how that statement is linked to this question:
"is the concept of minimum wage also related to the surplus availability of labour?"
Are you asking if the minimum wage contributes to unemployment or are you asking if the minimum wage contributes to situations wherein workers don't labor as hard as they could, or are you asking something entirely different?
i thought it was said that the value of pay is related to one's contribution to production not dictated by supply and demand?
i'm asking if there is an abundance of cheap labour - that the wage itself is not dictated by one's contribution rather the demand similar to what i wrote above ...
increase their work experience, abilities etc. No one should be settling for a minimum wage job. Yeah you might start at Mcdonalds as a fry cook (they pay about 7.75 I think) but in 3-6 months given the average Mc'd's turnover...you're a manager. Same thing with bagging groceries.
Once you're a manager, you have management experience and so on and so forth.
There are plenty of horrid companies to work for and plenty of great ones... I think Whole Foods and Home Depot have profit sharing for every employee. I know where I'd be bagging groceries or slicing fish.
that may be so ... but opportunities need to exist ... if every fry cook, burger flipper wants to become a manager at the arches - then they would need to turn those positions over significantly ...
i see your point and i would hope anyone making a low wage would aspire and have the opportunities to aspire to a higher wage - however, even at your 6 mth timeframe ... how is someone to operate if that minimum wage does not cover the basic cost of living?
It's probably not. I'm against the concept of a minimum wage.
You'd think the free market would dictate wages..but unfortunately..there are some really gready people in this country..and some citizens that don't have many options. Say they need to raise it to $10.00 per hour. Yes it will raise the cost of sh#t......but oh well.
increase their work experience, abilities etc. No one should be settling for a minimum wage job. Yeah you might start at Mcdonalds as a fry cook (they pay about 7.75 I think) but in 3-6 months given the average Mc'd's turnover...you're a manager. Same thing with bagging groceries.
Once you're a manager, you have management experience and so on and so forth.
There are plenty of horrid companies to work for and plenty of great ones... I think Whole Foods and Home Depot have profit sharing for every employee. I know where I'd be bagging groceries or slicing fish.
the mental capability..or personality to advance.....so giving them a little more to make it...is good for the economy...and if it raises the price of a burger...so freakin what...and to small business's....they are all in the same boat...so doesn't hinder competitiveness.
You'd think the free market would dictate wages..but unfortunately..there are some really gready people in this country..and some citizens that don't have many options. Say they need to raise it to $10.00 per hour. Yes it will raise the cost of sh#t......but oh well.
No offense but that is pretty dumb. What if raising the min. wage to $10 actually causes inflation that results in a lower expendable income for the average worker?
No offense but that is pretty dumb. What if raising the min. wage to $10 actually causes inflation that results in a lower expendable income for the average worker?
...soo what makes you think it will cause inflation....I highly doubt it. If you look at consumer prices..energy, transportation what ever....giving the folks that are at minimum wage a boost it won't correlate to a one to one increase in all their goods..as everyone is not at minimum wage. Soooooo if you feel prices will go up in direct relation then your making a pretty dumb statement. Your not as smart as you think you are. No offense.
i thought it was said that the value of pay is related to one's contribution to production not dictated by supply and demand?
i'm asking if there is an abundance of cheap labour - that the wage itself is not dictated by one's contribution rather the demand similar to what i wrote above ...
Ok, I understand your question better. Thanks.
One's "contribution" is inextricably linked to both supply and demand. If you are the only one who could possibly do your job, the value of your contribution is very high. If millions of people could do your job, the value of your contribution is very low. Your "contribution" is bigger than just the execution of your skills.
That is an interesting question. A good one. At what wage can you set the minimum wage to maximize the income versus inflation issue?
i dunno ... to me - it would make sense to peg it to a cost of living index ... i think the last thing anyone wants is for people to have to draw into social assistance as that affects everyone ...
One's "contribution" is inextricably linked to both supply and demand. If you are the only one who could possibly do your job, the value of your contribution is very high. If millions of people could do your job, the value of your contribution is very low. Your "contribution" is bigger than just the execution of your skills.
but everything is subjective ... for example, take foreign trained workers ... many who have lots of skills and education but end up driving taxis here because they can't get the opportunity to do someone else's job ...
aren't unions a similar way of addressing the supply and demand link? ... and i would like to add that i am not totally in favour of unions ... and i don't necessarily want to make this into a discussion about the validity ...
but everything is subjective ... for example, take foreign trained workers ... many who have lots of skills and education but end up driving taxis here because they can't get the opportunity to do someone else's job ...
They may have lots of "skills and education". What they often don't have, however, are language skills or cultural understandings which are often just as important if not moreso. You can see this in action everyday. In fields such as medicine and information technology, those skills and education are often in such high demand that companies will look past language barriers and cultural differences. With lower-demand skills, however, the barriers and differences often outweigh them.
aren't unions a similar way of addressing the supply and demand link? ... and i would like to add that i am not totally in favour of unions ... and i don't necessarily want to make this into a discussion about the validity ...
Unions are a similar way of addressing supply and demand. Unions "artificially" affect the supply of labor by linking people together in large negotiating groups. And while I'm not a fan of unions for other reasons, I see no problem with people doing this. A union however is different than a law. Unions cross a line when they start aggressively attacking management or commit acts of violence or subversion to get their way. A minimum wage is little different -- it is backed by the force of the state that will subvert attempts to shirk their rules.
...soo what makes you think it will cause inflation....I highly doubt it. If you look at consumer prices..energy, transportation what ever....giving the folks that are at minimum wage a boost it won't correlate to a one to one increase in all their goods..as everyone is not at minimum wage. Soooooo if you feel prices will go up in direct relation then your making a pretty dumb statement. Your not as smart as you think you are. No offense.
Raising the minimum wage in effect raises most wages. Did you read the article at all? Do you not understand that people that were making a premium above minimum wage will now expect that same premium above the new minimum wage?
Sorry, honestly didn' mean to offend, but to just arbitrarily say $10 minimum wage would raise everyone's lifestyle is naive. It's not that simple.
Raising the minimum wage in effect raises most wages. Did you read the article at all? Do you not understand that people that were making a premium above minimum wage will now expect that same premium above the new minimum wage?
Sorry, honestly didn' mean to offend, but to just arbitrarily say $10 minimum wage would raise everyone's lifestyle is naive. It's not that simple.
did I say it would raise everyones lifestyle???? Regardless if I read the article or not..to think that the added income of those at the bottom will entirely be eaten up by inflation is naive.....I also very much understand pay structure for business's that have many at the minimum wage...and understand the ramification of how those pay structures will have to be modified when the minimum wage is increased.....I went through it last time minimum wage was increased...yes I pulled $10.00 out of my ass...could have said $9...point was companies will pay as little as possible without regard for their employees...you should restrain passing judgement..because again..your not as smart as you think you are.
did I say it would raise everyones lifestyle???? Regardless if I read the article or not..to think that the added income of those at the bottom will entirely be eaten up by inflation is naive.....I also very much understand pay structure for business's that have many at the minimum wage...and understand the ramification of how those pay structures will have to be modified when the minimum wage is increased.....I went through it last time minimum wage was increased...yes I pulled $10.00 out of my ass...could have said $9...point was companies will pay as little as possible without regard for their employees...you should restrain passing judgement..because again..your not as smart as you think you are.
Peace
Lighten up, I wasn't passing judgment on you, just the $10 proposal. I've never claimed to be smart. Look who's passing judgement.
You are right in that most businesses would want to pay as little as possible. BUt raising the minimum wage is no magic pill.
Lighten up, I wasn't passing judgment on you, just the $10 proposal. I've never claimed to be smart. Look who's passing judgement.
You are right in that most businesses would want to pay as little as possible. BUt raising the minimum wage is no magic pill.
But it is a step in the right direction. Convolute it all you want, its really very basic, at the core of the situation.
But the upper class in the US has slowly been concentrating the wealth in this country, at the cost of the middle and lower classes, to a point where it is now comparable to the 20's before the crash. Since the 70's its relaly taken off, and with exxon posting the highest profit by ever a company (what-36$ billion?) there's plenty of room to pay employees what they are worth. So they make 35.9$ billion and all of their employees get a 10$ raise in wages? Does the economic model cllapse?
that may be so ... but opportunities need to exist ... if every fry cook, burger flipper wants to become a manager at the arches - then they would need to turn those positions over significantly ...
i see your point and i would hope anyone making a low wage would aspire and have the opportunities to aspire to a higher wage - however, even at your 6 mth timeframe ... how is someone to operate if that minimum wage does not cover the basic cost of living?
That would go against the "too many cooks in the kitchen" idea.....if everyone wanted to be manager, there wouldn't be enough cooks in the kitchen!
But it is a step in the right direction. Convolute it all you want, its really very basic, at the core of the situation.
But the upper class in the US has slowly been concentrating the wealth in this country, at the cost of the middle and lower classes, to a point where it is now comparable to the 20's before the crash. Since the 70's its relaly taken off, and with exxon posting the highest profit by ever a company (what-36$ billion?) there's plenty of room to pay employees what they are worth. So they make 35.9$ billion and all of their employees get a 10$ raise in wages? Does the economic model cllapse?
Listen, I never said anything about not having a minimum wage, but I do believe that we have the wrong people determining what it is for the wrong reasons.
When you add all the price increases I wonder if people making making more money is really giving them any more in their pockets.
The answer is yes.
You can do the math based on the figures in your article, (price increase of 2.4 percent vs a wage increase of 41 percent) a good excercise but probably inadequate for any real understanding. Or considering that the minimum wage is at its lowest value in 50 years and inflation has continued since the last minimum wage increase there is probably room for an increase. Or look at the history of the effect of minimum wage on economies historically and you won't need to wonder so much.
It is hard. If the people being paid minimum wage were being paid a wage that "reflects an individuals contribution to the overall production", there would be no need for a minimum wage.
what a pile of bollox... everyone knows that minimum wage jobs are usually the most physically demanding, thankless jobs you can find... however they're usually in the 'cheap' sector where employers can only make a profit and a good one at that by keeping labour costs down... it has NOTHING to do with individual performance and never will be. So can we quit this pretence that 'if you work to the best of your ability in a crap job, you'll be paid CEO wages' :rolleyes:
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
what a pile of bollox... everyone knows that minimum wage jobs are usually the most physically demanding, thankless jobs you can find... however they're usually in the 'cheap' sector where employers can only make a profit and a good one at that by keeping labour costs down... it has NOTHING to do with individual performance and never will be. So can we quit this pretence that 'if you work to the best of your ability in a crap job, you'll be paid CEO wages' :rolleyes:
I didn't say 'if you work to the best of your ability in a crap job, you'll be paid CEO wages'. If the best of your ability is to do only something "physically demanding", you most likely won't be a CEO or earn CEO wages.
Furthermore, just because labor is physically demanding doesn't mean it has a high value. In fact, the opposite it typically true, since muscle is little more than a commodity.
I didn't say 'if you work to the best of your ability in a crap job, you'll be paid CEO wages'. If the best of your ability is to do only something "physically demanding", you most likely won't be a CEO or earn CEO wages.
Furthermore, just because labor is physically demanding doesn't mean it has a high value. In fact, the opposite it typically true, since muscle is little more than a commodity.
Well you constantly insist that people should be paid in accordance with their abilities and their worth to the company. But I'm pointing out that in one of those crappy pay jobs, it doesn't matter HOW hard you work or how loyal you are to the company, because basically you're worthless and completely replaceable to them.
As for your second paragraph... it's the people who perform the physically demanding jobs who keep the world ticking over... the CEO's we CAN actually do without. If everything were to go full circle for whatever reason and we end up being back to basics... we're going to be depending on the 'muscle' to survive.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
what a pile of bollox... everyone knows that minimum wage jobs are usually the most physically demanding, thankless jobs you can find... however they're usually in the 'cheap' sector where employers can only make a profit and a good one at that by keeping labour costs down... it has NOTHING to do with individual performance and never will be. So can we quit this pretence that 'if you work to the best of your ability in a crap job, you'll be paid CEO wages' :rolleyes:
Comments
is the concept of minimum wage also related to the surplus availability of labour? ... i mean ... i can make a fortune on a product and pay someone minimum wage if there are plenty of people who are willing to accept the pay regardless of that individual's contribution to the product ...
but the gov't sets the minimum wage as well ... what is that based on? ... i assumed it was related to the costs of living ... if you're going to have a minimum wage to begin with and not let "the market" dictate that wage - it has to be adjusted to something ...
as said before - i'm no economist by any stretch - just posing the thoughts that come to my mind ...
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
I'd rather have neither. And I think that's possible. I don't see it as an either-or situation.
I'm not sure I understand your question. "Individual freedom" isn't some blanket statement wherein all behaviors are justified. A person who uses their "individual freedom" to prevent someone else from expressing their own has demonstrated that "individual freedom" has no value to them. So society has a right to seek justice in the case wherein someone acts in a manner demonstrating that they have no interests in freedom, happiness, or life -- the core human rights and values.
Those cases are the exception, however, not the rule. Most people use their freedoms in an exceptionally constructive manner. I fail to see why those people should have to bribe and steal in order to prevent bribery and theft.
but inflation happens regardless of minimum wage ... so, while the cost of goods go up - how are people at a low wage supposed to compensate?
If there are "plenty of people who are willing to accept the pay", then that pay is either at or close to the value of that labor. I'm confused as to how that statement is linked to this question:
"is the concept of minimum wage also related to the surplus availability of labour?"
Are you asking if the minimum wage contributes to unemployment or are you asking if the minimum wage contributes to situations wherein workers don't labor as hard as they could, or are you asking something entirely different?
increase their work experience, abilities etc. No one should be settling for a minimum wage job. Yeah you might start at Mcdonalds as a fry cook (they pay about 7.75 I think) but in 3-6 months given the average Mc'd's turnover...you're a manager. Same thing with bagging groceries.
Once you're a manager, you have management experience and so on and so forth.
There are plenty of horrid companies to work for and plenty of great ones... I think Whole Foods and Home Depot have profit sharing for every employee. I know where I'd be bagging groceries or slicing fish.
i thought it was said that the value of pay is related to one's contribution to production not dictated by supply and demand?
i'm asking if there is an abundance of cheap labour - that the wage itself is not dictated by one's contribution rather the demand similar to what i wrote above ...
Would have loved to see your resonse before you deleted it.
that may be so ... but opportunities need to exist ... if every fry cook, burger flipper wants to become a manager at the arches - then they would need to turn those positions over significantly ...
i see your point and i would hope anyone making a low wage would aspire and have the opportunities to aspire to a higher wage - however, even at your 6 mth timeframe ... how is someone to operate if that minimum wage does not cover the basic cost of living?
That is an interesting question. A good one. At what wage can you set the minimum wage to maximize the income versus inflation issue?
No offense but that is pretty dumb. What if raising the min. wage to $10 actually causes inflation that results in a lower expendable income for the average worker?
Ok, I understand your question better. Thanks.
One's "contribution" is inextricably linked to both supply and demand. If you are the only one who could possibly do your job, the value of your contribution is very high. If millions of people could do your job, the value of your contribution is very low. Your "contribution" is bigger than just the execution of your skills.
i dunno ... to me - it would make sense to peg it to a cost of living index ... i think the last thing anyone wants is for people to have to draw into social assistance as that affects everyone ...
but i dunno ... hard to say ...
but everything is subjective ... for example, take foreign trained workers ... many who have lots of skills and education but end up driving taxis here because they can't get the opportunity to do someone else's job ...
aren't unions a similar way of addressing the supply and demand link? ... and i would like to add that i am not totally in favour of unions ... and i don't necessarily want to make this into a discussion about the validity ...
They may have lots of "skills and education". What they often don't have, however, are language skills or cultural understandings which are often just as important if not moreso. You can see this in action everyday. In fields such as medicine and information technology, those skills and education are often in such high demand that companies will look past language barriers and cultural differences. With lower-demand skills, however, the barriers and differences often outweigh them.
Unions are a similar way of addressing supply and demand. Unions "artificially" affect the supply of labor by linking people together in large negotiating groups. And while I'm not a fan of unions for other reasons, I see no problem with people doing this. A union however is different than a law. Unions cross a line when they start aggressively attacking management or commit acts of violence or subversion to get their way. A minimum wage is little different -- it is backed by the force of the state that will subvert attempts to shirk their rules.
Raising the minimum wage in effect raises most wages. Did you read the article at all? Do you not understand that people that were making a premium above minimum wage will now expect that same premium above the new minimum wage?
Sorry, honestly didn' mean to offend, but to just arbitrarily say $10 minimum wage would raise everyone's lifestyle is naive. It's not that simple.
Peace
Lighten up, I wasn't passing judgment on you, just the $10 proposal. I've never claimed to be smart. Look who's passing judgement.
You are right in that most businesses would want to pay as little as possible. BUt raising the minimum wage is no magic pill.
But the upper class in the US has slowly been concentrating the wealth in this country, at the cost of the middle and lower classes, to a point where it is now comparable to the 20's before the crash. Since the 70's its relaly taken off, and with exxon posting the highest profit by ever a company (what-36$ billion?) there's plenty of room to pay employees what they are worth. So they make 35.9$ billion and all of their employees get a 10$ raise in wages? Does the economic model cllapse?
That would go against the "too many cooks in the kitchen" idea.....if everyone wanted to be manager, there wouldn't be enough cooks in the kitchen!
Listen, I never said anything about not having a minimum wage, but I do believe that we have the wrong people determining what it is for the wrong reasons.
The answer is yes.
You can do the math based on the figures in your article, (price increase of 2.4 percent vs a wage increase of 41 percent) a good excercise but probably inadequate for any real understanding. Or considering that the minimum wage is at its lowest value in 50 years and inflation has continued since the last minimum wage increase there is probably room for an increase. Or look at the history of the effect of minimum wage on economies historically and you won't need to wonder so much.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I didn't say 'if you work to the best of your ability in a crap job, you'll be paid CEO wages'. If the best of your ability is to do only something "physically demanding", you most likely won't be a CEO or earn CEO wages.
Furthermore, just because labor is physically demanding doesn't mean it has a high value. In fact, the opposite it typically true, since muscle is little more than a commodity.
As for your second paragraph... it's the people who perform the physically demanding jobs who keep the world ticking over... the CEO's we CAN actually do without. If everything were to go full circle for whatever reason and we end up being back to basics... we're going to be depending on the 'muscle' to survive.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Rant of the Year! You go, Helen!
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.