Higher Minimum Wages

135

Comments

  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    gue_barium wrote:
    Rant of the Year! You go, Helen!
    Thank you :) . It's just quite obvious that some people here are in cushy little jobs and are completely against ANY talk of 'sharing the wealth'... fuck the poor people, it's their own fault they are where they are :mad: . Maybe so, or maybe it's because of the greedy rich people who do everything they can to KEEP the poor people where they are. Ireland's not so bad cos we have free education but having seen some of the fees for third level education in the states :eek: that argument just does not hold up. Everyone does NOT have an equal chance :mad:
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  • Well you constantly insist that people should be paid in accordance with their abilities and their worth to the company. But I'm pointing out that in one of those crappy pay jobs, it doesn't matter HOW hard you work or how loyal you are to the company, because basically you're worthless and completely replaceable to them.

    You're attempting to link "abilities and worth to the company" with "hard work and loyalty". The link between those thing is not universal. Just because you're loyal and work hard doesn't mean that you have ability or that you have any worth to the company beyond a meager salary.
    As for your second paragraph... it's the people who perform the physically demanding jobs who keep the world ticking over... the CEO's we CAN actually do without. If everything were to go full circle for whatever reason and we end up being back to basics... we're going to be depending on the 'muscle' to survive.

    Hehe....if you want to "depend on muscle to survive", I'd invite you to go to Afghanistan, Pakistan, most of Africa, or any other place on this Earth where muscle defines an economy.

    A modern economy is driven by minds, not muscles, HH. Muscles can move and weld steel together, but it takes a mind to give it the purpose of an automobile. Muscles can move and stack blocks, but it takes a mind to give it the purpose of a skyscraper. Muscles can do many things that would have absolutely no value to you absent the mind that gives those muscles purpose and reason.
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    You're attempting to link "abilities and worth to the company" with "hard work and loyalty". The link between those thing is not universal. Just because you're loyal and work hard doesn't mean that you have ability or that you have any worth to the company beyond a meager salary.

    So why do you keep saying otherwise? :confused: That's exactly what I'm pointing out in response to how you always say that you define your own minimum wage... well, not unless you have the means to do so... which kinda defeats the purpose.
    Hehe....if you want to "depend on muscle to survive", I'd invite you to go to Afghanistan, Pakistan, most of Africa, or any other place on this Earth where muscle defines an economy

    A modern economy is driven by minds, not muscles, HH. Muscles can move and weld steel together, but it takes a mind to give it the purpose of an automobile. Muscles can move and stack blocks, but it takes a mind to give it the purpose of a skyscraper. Muscles can do many things that would have absolutely no value to you absent the mind that gives those muscles purpose and reason.
    Hmm... so do you think all the minds are isolated in the rich countries? :confused: I'm sure I don't need to dig up statistics to tell you that you're completely wrong... and are you saying there's no muscle in the rich countries? And I don't necessarily think a skyscraper is the work of genius... anyone can build big. Or a car.. see how THEY'RE ruining the world.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • Thank you :) . It's just quite obvious that some people here are in cushy little jobs and are completely against ANY talk of 'sharing the wealth'... fuck the poor people, it's their own fault they are where they are :mad: . Maybe so, or maybe it's because of the greedy rich people who do everything they can to KEEP the poor people where they are. Ireland's not so bad cos we have free education but having seen some of the fees for third level education in the states :eek: that argument just does not hold up. Everyone does NOT have an equal chance :mad:

    Yeah, fuck those people who have doubled the life expectancy of nearly everyone, fuck those people who have put air conditioners and automobiles in the hands of the poor, fuck those people who have given the poor jobs and opportunities to earn their way in life, rather than mooch it or leech it. Fuck those who give you a reason to educate people in the first place.

    Fuck those greedy bastards....now give me what's mine??? Nice.

    Perhaps we should all learn from the ancient Egyptians. Let's have a muscle economy wherein we all just stack blocks on top of each other until we have someplace nice to be when we're dead.
  • So why do you keep saying otherwise? :confused: That's exactly what I'm pointing out in response to how you always say that you define your own minimum wage... well, not unless you have the means to do so... which kinda defeats the purpose.

    You don't get paid for "hard work and loyalty". You get paid for valuable labor. It's not a bad thing that a person who expends the utmost of energy but produces the minimal amount of value gets paid a small wage. It makes perfect sense.

    Your standard for labor is "hard work and loyalty". That's not my standard. My standard for labor is the value of what comes out of it. Do you understand?
    Hmm... so do you think all the minds are isolated in the rich countries? :confused:

    No. Many of the minds in those countries come to ours. Many that stay are destroyed by the men of muscle in the forms of governments and militias.
    I'm sure I don't need to dig up statistics to tell you that you're completely wrong... and are you saying there's no muscle in the rich countries? And I don't necessarily think a skyscraper is the work of genius... anyone can build big.

    There is plenty of muscle in rich countries. The dominant form of muscle in rich countries comes in the forms of machines, not people. And if you don't think skyscrapers and automobiles and electricity are "genius", that's just fine by me. Your dollars speak otherwise, as does your way of life.
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    Yeah, fuck those people who have doubled the life expectancy of nearly everyone, fuck those people who have put air conditioners and automobiles in the hands of the poor, fuck those people who have given the poor jobs and opportunities to earn their way in life, rather than mooch it or leech it. Fuck those who give you a reason to educate people in the first place.

    Fuck those greedy bastards....now give me what's mine??? Nice..

    Wow, you and I have quite a different view of CEO's don't we? Wonder why that is :confused: . You seem to view them as... almost missionaries :eek: . Interesting outlook.

    And I speak on behalf of others... I get by just fine thank you and have never had to leech of anybody, even my parents.
    Perhaps we should all learn from the ancient Egyptians. Let's have a muscle economy wherein we all just stack blocks on top of each other until we have someplace nice to be when we're dead.
    Didn't the Egyptians pretty much rule the world at the time? Sometimes I think they were much more advanced than we are today. We just have a different outlook on life... I don't see concrete and carbon emissions as the way forward! Probably ironic considering my job but I do recognise the irony.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    You don't get paid for "hard work and loyalty". You get paid for valuable labor. It's not a bad thing that a person who expends the utmost of energy but produces the minimal amount of value gets paid a small wage. It makes perfect sense.

    Your standard for labor is "hard work and loyalty". That's not my standard. My standard for labor is the value of what comes out of it. Do you understand?.

    Thank you for finally admitting that you cannot see how we're all a team. Can you recognise that we wouldn't be able to keep going without the 'least valuable' members of society.
    No. Many of the minds in those countries come to ours. Many that stay are destroyed by the men of muscle in the forms of governments and militias.

    There is plenty of muscle in rich countries. The dominant form of muscle in rich countries comes in the forms of machines, not people. And if you don't think skyscrapers and automobiles and electricity are "genius", that's just fine by me. Your dollars speak otherwise, as does your way of life.
    See you're missing out on one valuable thing. 'Wealth' is not just financial... some people are not born with the same opportunities as you or I simply because of their environmental surroundings.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • Wow, you and I have quite a different view of CEO's don't we? Wonder why that is :confused: . You seem to view them as... almost missionaries :eek: . Interesting outlook.

    And I speak on behalf of others... I get by just fine thank you and have never had to leech of anybody, even my parents.

    I'm not just talking about "CEO's". I'm talking about anyone who has ever given you something with their mind that made your life easier and/or better.
    Didn't the Egyptians pretty much rule the world at the time? Sometimes I think they were much more advanced than we are today. We just have a different outlook on life... I don't see concrete and carbon emissions as the way forward! Probably ironic considering my job but I do recognise the irony.

    "Concrete and carbon emissions" are not the only way to build an advanced society. The true irony is that the muscles of government will not solve those things -- the people that give you better options will.

    And if you think the Egyptians were "much more advanced than we are today", I'd invite you to go live in a shack in the desert and spend 12 hours a day doing hard manual labor, sometimes against your will. See how well that works out for you.
  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    callen wrote:
    ...soo what makes you think it will cause inflation....I highly doubt it. If you look at consumer prices..energy, transportation what ever....giving the folks that are at minimum wage a boost it won't correlate to a one to one increase in all their goods..as everyone is not at minimum wage. Soooooo if you feel prices will go up in direct relation then your making a pretty dumb statement. Your not as smart as you think you are. No offense.


    actually, the people making 10 dollars an hour will also require a raise as they are then making 10 dollars an hour, if their job was worth more when the minimum is lower, it's worth more now.... and so on and so forth. That's how it works. That's how Unions negociate wages. Rasing the minimum wage has more to do with Unions and their contracts than anything else.

    The ultimate result is the increase of work for people at the bottom and the reduction of positions, so many of the positions that people use to gain experience are sacrificed so a smaller number of people can make a higher wage and subsequently be forced to do more, which may also have the effect of more unskilled laborers being unemployeed or working for temp agencies (or getting paid illegally under the table). Many employers will simply discontinue many of their low wage positions and force the higher paid positions to pick up the slack. They do it all the time as it is now. Many companies run as thin as possible until something forces them to hire more people.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • Thank you for finally admitting that you cannot see how we're all a team.

    Hehe...if "we're all a team", then why does it matter what these individuals are making?

    No, we're not all a team. I'm not your teammate. I'm not George Bush's teammate. I'm not Menu Food's teammate. I'm not Louis Farrakhan's teammate. There are plenty of people who aren't my "teammate".
    Can you recognise that we wouldn't be able to keep going without the 'least valuable' members of society.

    That depends on what you mean. We certainly could "keep going" without minimum wage workers. Our lives would be adversely affected, but not to any massive extent.
    See you're missing out on one valuable thing. 'Wealth' is not just financial... some people are not born with the same opportunities as you or I simply because of their environmental surroundings.

    I never said people were born with the same opportunities as you or I. You and I weren't born with the same opportunities as each other.

    However, all those people I mentioned have the opportunity to use their minds and to reject the worship of muscle. They may never be "CEOs", but their lives will be much better for it.
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    I'm not just talking about "CEO's". I'm talking about anyone who has ever given you something with their mind that made your life easier and/or better..
    well I'm NOT talking about those people... cos they're generally not for holding back the poor people! I'm talking about those who fight every single attempt to spread out the wealth, they're the ones I have a problem with... cos they're generally the people who won't miss it. Just cos one is intelligent does not necessarily mean that one is entitled to be more wealthy than 'stupid yet strong' people and SHOULD not. You seem to see intelligence as a thing that makes you better than others though? Sure, intelligence is a great thing BUT isn't that already a wealth? Why then should you be more entitled to every kind?
    "Concrete and carbon emissions" are not the only way to build an advanced society. The true irony is that the muscles of government will not solve those things -- the people that give you better options will.
    well then, why is the terminator leading the American mission to be environmentally friendly? :p Oh yes, the people that give us better options WILL indeed work hard to wipe out the damage caused by the other wonderful things they gave us :rolleyes:
    And if you think the Egyptians were "much more advanced than we are today", I'd invite you to go live in a shack in the desert and spend 12 hours a day doing hard manual labor, sometimes against your will. See how well that works out for you.
    See how YOU'D like it. I never said I'd LIKE a physically demanding job but I just think you can be quite patronising towards those who HAVE no other option... so yeh, you give it a go and then come back and argue what you're worth.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    Hehe...if "we're all a team", then why does it matter what these individuals are making?

    No, we're not all a team. I'm not your teammate. I'm not George Bush's teammate. I'm not Menu Food's teammate. I'm not Louis Farrakhan's teammate. There are plenty of people who aren't my "teammate".



    That depends on what you mean. We certainly could "keep going" without minimum wage workers. Our lives would be adversely affected, but not to any massive extent.
    well then.. that pretty much says it all about the point of arguing anything with you :eek: . You just keep on working on your own then and see how far you get.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • well I'm NOT talking about those people... cos they're generally not for holding back the poor people! I'm talking about those who fight every single attempt to spread out the wealth, they're the ones I have a problem with... cos they're generally the people who won't miss it. Just cos one is intelligent does not necessarily mean that one is entitled to be more wealthy than 'stupid yet strong' people and SHOULD not. You seem to see intelligence as a thing that makes you better than others though? Sure, intelligence is a great thing BUT isn't that already a wealth? Why then should you be more entitled to every kind?

    Way to make massive generalizations on CEOs. Not all CEOs are "holding back the poor". And just because you don't support "spreading the wealth" doesn't mean you're holding back anyone. Wealth is not a static thing. It is made. I can't stop you from making wealth unless I forcibly stop you from thinking or acting.

    Intelligence does make me "better" than some others. Those who have more intelligence than I do are "better" than me. And intelligence is wealth. It entitles me to no other wealth until someone exchanges their wealth for my intelligence. Do you understand that? I'm not talking about anyone, poor or CEO, being "entitled" to anything else owned by another.
    well then, why is the terminator leading the American mission to be environmentally friendly? :p Oh yes, the people that give us better options WILL indeed work hard to wipe out the damage caused by the other wonderful things they gave us :rolleyes:

    Yes, they will. What's so wrong about this?
    See how YOU'D like it. I never said I'd LIKE a physically demanding job but I just think you can be quite patronising towards those who HAVE no other option... so yeh, you give it a go and then come back and argue what you're worth.

    The ancient egyptians did have "other options". Modern egyptians prove that by not living in the same manner. If you want to grasp onto this predestination stick, help yourself. But if that's the case, none of this matters because then things now are exactly as they should be as well.
  • well then.. that pretty much says it all about the point of arguing anything with you :eek: . You just keep on working on your own then and see how far you get.

    "Working on my own" is not what I'm talking about, HH. What I'm talking about is working with whom I please, and vice versa. Slavery isn't my bag.
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Intelligence does make me "better" than some others. Those who have more intelligence than I do are "better" than me.
    Intelligence is one thing. And it's value is dependent on many, many factors. A higher intelligence is not guaranteed self-evidently "better".
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

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  • angelica wrote:
    Intelligence is one thing. And it's value is dependent on many, many factors. A higher intelligence is not guaranteed self-evidently "better".

    Agreed. Intelligence is not the only possible standard for assessing the value of another. I didn't mean "better" as some all-encompassing term.
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Agreed. Intelligence is not the only possible standard for assessing the value of another. I didn't mean "better" as some all-encompassing term.
    With each "intelligence" itself, there can be huge variations on how it plays out in the environment, and within the indivdual. One can be highly intelligent and spend their life in jail, or being mentally ill. My brother, once a physics student in university currently is unable to work, due to schizophrenia. As well, a CEO can possess average intelligence and have great interpersonal and life skills, etc. I personally believe George Bush is of startlingly average intelligence (but therefore has resonated with the 'norm'--and I also see him as having a non-visionary type of intelligence, unlike most people on this board who couldn't get elected if their lives depended on it) I know many stunningly intelligent people who are on the fringes of society, for example, driving cabs, or working temporary jobs. All humans have huge depths of value, whether they are appreciated in society based on our norms of what is valued at this time.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    One more thing...my brother who has had schizophrenia for over 10 years, and who is unable to work in the traditional sense because the stress causes him to hallucinate and become delusional, the one who once dreamed of being an astrophysicist, also has the same personality type as Ayn Rand and supposedly Newton, among others....and if you recall farfromglorified, you and I have discussed the possibility of you being of that type, as well.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelica wrote:
    With each "intelligence" itself, there can be huge variations on how it plays out in the environment, and within the indivdual. One can be highly intelligent and spend their life in jail, or being mentally ill. My brother, once a physics student in university currently is unable to work, due to schizophrenia. As well, a CEO can possess average intelligence and have great interpersonal and life skills, etc. I personally believe George Bush is of startlingly average intelligence (but therefore has resonated with the 'norm'--and I also see him as having a non-visionary type of intelligence, unlike most people on this board who couldn't get elected if their lives depended on it) I know many stunningly intelligent people who are on the fringes of society, for example, driving cabs, or working temporary jobs. All humans have huge depths of value, whether they are appreciated in society based on our norms of what is valued at this time.

    I agree with this as well. "Intelligence" is a multi-faceted thing and it not some guarantee of wealth, nor should it be. I didn't bring up "intelligence" here, I brought up the mind, and there's a differentiation there that accounts for other factors you mention above. Anyway, specific types of intelligence that produce ideas and products of value to others are what should "guarantee" wealth, so long as those others are actually willing to exchange for it.
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    I agree with this as well. "Intelligence" is a multi-faceted thing and it not some guarantee of wealth, nor should it be. I didn't bring up "intelligence" here, I brought up the mind, and there's a differentiation there that accounts for other factors you mention above. Anyway, specific types of intelligence that produce ideas and products of value to others are what should "guarantee" wealth, so long as those others are actually willing to exchange for it.
    The beauty of the myers briggs personality typing is that is points to the value of what each individual brings to the table. There is distinct, absolute, undeniable value in physical labour as well. My dad worked a physical labour job until he retired. He's not a theoretical type of guy and believed he was not smart, but he's a detail oriented and highly creative person. So while his brother became a respected university professor, my dad worked at a factory to support his seven kids. His true dream, that he pursued alongside his "survival" job was being a musician. My parents band played in bars essentially every weekend of my childhood. My dad self-produced and financed the band's album in the 70's (by selling his beloved record collection of 78s). Later on, some other dude released an album of songs by my dad. And as I've told you privately before, a few years back, one of the members of Depeche Mode recorded one of my 70-something year old dad's songs, on a solo release including songs also written by Lou Reed, David Bowie and Iggy Pop. Once my dad was old enough to realize the silliness of the social judgments and value that was put on him as a factory worker (minimizing his actual value) including by himself, he began to truly outlet his purpose and has since gone on to become one of Canada's most well known record dealers/collectors, and was touted on the CBC as contributing more to the Canadian country music scene than any other musician. I know you don't dispute that people can do such things, and I have no doubt you would encourage them to. The thing is, there are reasons people are working labour jobs, and are not opening to their actual potential and contributing what you or others consider "value". And those reasons are both individual and societal. It's another side of the coin of what you argue in these debates, imo.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelica wrote:
    The beauty of the myers briggs personality typing is that is points to the value of what each individual brings to the table. There is distinct, absolute, undeniable value in physical labour as well. My dad worked a physical labour job until he retired. He's not a theoretical type of guy and believed he was not smart, but he's a detail oriented and highly creative person. So while his brother became a respected university professor, my dad worked at a factory to support his seven kids. His true dream, that he pursued alongside his "survival" job was being a musician. My parents band played in bars essentially every weekend of my childhood. My dad self-produced and financed the band's album in the 70's (by selling his beloved record collection of 78s). Later on, some other dude released an album of songs by my dad. And as I've told you privately before, a few years back, one of the members of Depeche Mode recorded one of my 70-something year old dad's songs, on a solo release including songs also written by Lou Reed, David Bowie and Iggy Pop. Once my dad was old enough to realize the silliness of the social judgments and value that was put on him as a factory worker (minimizing his actual value) including by himself, he began to truly outlet his purpose and has since gone on to become one of Canada's most well known record dealers/collectors, and was touted on the CBC as contributing more to the Canadian country music scene than any other musician. I know you don't dispute that people can do such things, and I have no doubt you would encourage them to. The thing is, there are reasons people are working labour jobs, and are not opening to their actual potential and contributing what you or others consider "value". And those reasons are both individual and societal. It's another side of the coin of what you argue in these debates, imo.

    Slow down...you've made a statement that implies a complete misrepresentation of what I've said here:

    "There is distinct, absolute, undeniable value in physical labour as well."

    Are you implying that I don't think physical labor has a "distinct, absolute, undeniable" value?
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Slow down...you've made a statement that implies a complete misrepresentation of what I've said here:

    "There is distinct, absolute, undeniable value in physical labour as well."

    Are you implying that I don't think physical labor has a "distinct, absolute, undeniable" value?
    Do you agree that value is arbitrary? Do you agree that my dad's contribution to his employer down at the old plant was as valuable as that of the CEO at the corporation? I understand value is "defined" by the market, but that is one kind of value, and imo not an actual full representation of value. I have the impression that your term for value in this context is purely in regards to economics, whereas that is not representative of the full situation and the full values involved, but instead an aspect of it. There are very real human aspects that your opponents in such debates present as a piece that it seems you are less willing to factor in. While we are discussing economics, we are also discussing numerous other factors that must be considered and dealt with in order to be realistic. Hence why our systems balance out societal aspects as well, in order to be more efficient. It may be beyond the economics, itself, but that's because it IS beyond the economics itself.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelica wrote:
    Do you agree that value is arbitrary?

    No. It's directly linked to the value others get out of the output of said labor.
    Do you agree that my dad's contribution to his employer down at the old plant was as valuable as that of the CEO at the corporation?

    I can't answer that question, not knowing your dad's contribution, the CEO's contribution, the purpose of the corporation or the values of its customers and shareholders. Mere existence doesn't imply value. Simply filling a role, be it the CEO's or the janitor's, doesn't imply value.
    I understand value is "defined" by the market, but that is one kind of value, and imo not an actual full representation of value. I have the impression that your term for value in this context is purely in regards to economics, whereas that is not representative of the full situation and the full values involved, but instead an aspect of it.

    Correct. I'm speaking economics here, not some larger concept of "human value".
    There are very real human aspects that your opponents in such debates present as a piece that it seems you are less willing to factor in. While we are discussing economics, we are also discussing numerous other factors that must be considered and dealt with in order to be realistic. Hence why our systems balance out societal aspects as well, in order to be more efficient. It may be beyond the economics, itself, but that's because it IS beyond the economics itself.

    See, these "real human aspects" certainly exist but it sounds absolutely ridiculous to bring them into a conversation about the minimum wage. So long as were discussing payment, we're talking economics. If you want to step out of the economic constraints of the discussion, you'll have to step out of the constraints of payment as well.

    Do you understand what this means? For example, people always want to fall into discussions of "team" and "society" and "altruism" and all these other wonderful things to imply somehow that minimum wage workers are entitled to more at the sacrifice of others. Unfortunately, that doesn't wash because one could easily use the very same arguments to say that minimum wage workers are entitled to less and thereby sacrifice further to others. In other words, if all this becomes about massive generalizations and social aspects wherein people have arbitrary obligations to one another, all bets are off. At that point, people only have what someone allows them to have, and that can work in all directions.
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Correct. I'm speaking economics here, not some larger concept of "human value".

    See, these "real human aspects" certainly exist but it sounds absolutely ridiculous to bring them into a conversation about the minimum wage. So long as were discussing payment, we're talking economics. If you want to step out of the economic constraints of the discussion, you'll have to step out of the constraints of payment as well.
    This is the crux of it between you and I and is representative of our different worldviews, so I will leave it at that. However that does not mean that the other side of the coin you are on does not exist.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • desandrewsdesandrews Posts: 143
    Thank you :) . It's just quite obvious that some people here are in cushy little jobs and are completely against ANY talk of 'sharing the wealth'... fuck the poor people, it's their own fault they are where they are :mad: . Maybe so, or maybe it's because of the greedy rich people who do everything they can to KEEP the poor people where they are. Ireland's not so bad cos we have free education but having seen some of the fees for third level education in the states :eek: that argument just does not hold up. Everyone does NOT have an equal chance :mad:

    I'm living proof that this is not the case. Poor kid, parents never went beyond high school. They were bankrupt, literally, when I was 12, divorced by the time I was 15. Some months the electricity went out because my mom couldn't pay the bill. My dad, the genious that he is, took a lower paying job so his child support payments would be lower. You know, all that good stuff. However, since I was poor, I qualified for every grant and loan you can think of. Not enough to go to a prestigious school or one anyone's probably even heard of, but enough to go to a modest school that gave me a good education. I worked hard to get a good degree (not something unmarketable like psychology, sociology or english :-)) and now I work for a large corporation making more money than I'd ever dreamed of. Not enough to make me rich by any means, but more money that I absolutely need to survive. Who cares if everybody doesn't have an EQUAL chance, the point is, they have a chance and if they want to, they can take advantage of it.
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    desandrews wrote:
    I'm living proof that this is not the case. Poor kid, parents never went beyond high school. They were bankrupt, literally, when I was 12, divorced by the time I was 15. Some months the electricity went out because my mom couldn't pay the bill. My dad, the genious that he is, took a lower paying job so his child support payments would be lower. You know, all that good stuff. However, since I was poor, I qualified for every grant and loan you can think of. Not enough to go to a prestigious school or one anyone's probably even heard of, but enough to go to a modest school that gave me a good education. I worked hard to get a good degree (not something unmarketable like psychology, sociology or english :-)) and now I work for a large corporation making more money than I'd ever dreamed of. Not enough to make me rich by any means, but more money that I absolutely need to survive. Who cares if everybody doesn't have an EQUAL chance, the point is, they have a chance and if they want to, they can take advantage of it.
    That lack of sociology and psychology degree is evident. ;) You don't seem to understand the piece one's psyche or their sociological influences bring to whether they are empowered to take advantage of opportunities.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • desandrewsdesandrews Posts: 143
    angelica wrote:
    That lack of sociology and psychology degree is evident. ;) You don't seem to understand the piece one's psyche or their sociological influences bring to whether they are empowered to take advantage of opportunities.

    Maybe that was partially my point, my psyche was damaged, I had poor sociological influences, all that stuff. Didn't matter though, you can't succumb to that.

    As Andre 3000 said, humble as a mumble in the jungle of shouts and screams, that's the way the cracker crumbles, so I guess I've got to re-route my dreams.
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    desandrews wrote:
    Maybe that was partially my point, my psyche was damaged, I had poor sociological influences, all that stuff. Didn't matter though, you can't succumb to that.

    As Andre 3000 said, humble as a mumble in the jungle of shouts and screams, that's the way the cracker crumbles, so I guess I've got to re-route my dreams.
    You also have what appears to be a reasonably high degree of intelligence, as well as at least some talent for business, which are not things equally possessed by all people.

    I won't even go into the reasons why different people respond differently to poor influences, because angelica's probably typing an outstanding post on that topic right now.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    hippiemom wrote:
    You also have what appears to be a reasonably high degree of intelligence, as well as at least some talent for business, which are not things equally possessed by all people.

    I won't even go into the reasons why different people respond differently to poor influences, because angelica's probably typing an outstanding post on that topic right now.
    I'm a firm believer that everyone has a talent that they can exploit for decent profit while enjoying what they do. And at a certain point in your life you have to stop feeling sorry for yourself, stop blaming the lack of control in your life on others and/or circumstances and step up to the plate and take control of your life.

    Are we all equally equiped to do this? No. Do we all have to do this regardless of situation? You bet if you want to be happy.

    I see people all the time who are afraid to succeed or afraid to demand respect for their abilities. Hell, I'm that person sometimes too. But we will never be able to engineer a society that does this for you. We all have no choice but to step up to the plate and do it ourselves. We can't choose our parents but we do choose our friends. Choose wisely, choose people who'll suupport your dreams. It's unfair that some people may never learn this but it's not something that society or school can really teach either. You have to learn this for yourself.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    desandrews wrote:
    Maybe that was partially my point, my psyche was damaged, I had poor sociological influences, all that stuff. Didn't matter though, you can't succumb to that.
    I'm the first person to believe in empowering others, paving the way, and showing them it can be done. At the same time, I also acknowledge, understand and appreciate the gravity of why people succumb to "that" and cannot find the way as you do. I wonder if you understand those variables.

    As Andre 3000 said, humble as a mumble in the jungle of shouts and screams, that's the way the cracker crumbles, so I guess I've got to re-route my dreams.
    And what do you tell those who are unable to succeed due to psychological and environmental factors?
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
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