Let me be the first to call bullshit on the criticism here. Is this group a little nutty? Sure. Fundamentalist? By their own admission. But violent? Come on! If the Christian equivalent of extremism is a bunch of hillbillies dressing their kids in fatigues and having them memorizing Bible verses, I think you can all go back to sleep. There's a huge deal of difference between actual military training camps and using military metaphors. At worst, this group is distasteful and a little nutty.
Violence does not have to start out with an initial physical contact act. A thought, a concept, can be planted and modeled, intentionally or unintentionally. Lets take the constant example that's always given, homosexuals. Religious leaders and teachers don't advocate going out and physically attacking gays. Yet, they remind their followers that this lifestyle as a sin; they are taught that these people will automatically go to Hell, They are taught that Jesus does not love gays. Now, with those concepts planted, people tend to react violently to gays, not because they have physically done anything to them, but because of what they have been taught, what they have learned, what they have heard. A person doesn't need military training to react, harm or kill, but playing toy soldier in the name of God only intensifies a dormant seed.
I have found that people who refer to themselves as "hillbillies" to be some of the most faithful, loyal, be there for you, need a hand type folks you would love to be able to call friend or neighbor.
Yet, were talking about a place in North Dakota, any descriptive words for the people of the Heartland you'd like to share? Other than, Opps, there's no names on these red and blue boxes!!!!
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
Jesus may not have specifically asked us to die for Him (at leasy not in any particular passage that I can recall right now, though He does ask us to be willing to make sacrifices), but shouldn't any principled man be willing to die for what he believes in? People have nobly died for much less than their devotion and love to the God they worship and to whom they attribute credit for all that is good.
I don't understand this. How does your death benefit god? I mean, when you "die for your country," your country benefits from your actions on the battlefield. What does god get?
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Christians need to be prepared for that, and we must be ready to defend our faith - not through violence, but through prayer, civil disobedience, non-comformity, etc.
there's a definition for a period dominated by conservators thinking to be non-comfortmist: Restauration
I don't understand this. How does your death benefit god? I mean, when you "die for your country," your country benefits from your actions on the battlefield. What does god get?
neither this, hippiemom: your country benefit if you take a task to the end, not if you die trying to reach it...
I have to take issue with your last statement, though. Jesus may not have specifically asked us to die for Him (at leasy not in any particular passage that I can recall right now, though He does ask us to be willing to make sacrifices), ...
There are no true Words that directs you, the servant, to kill or kill in his name or to die in his name. Even suicide is considered a sin.
but shouldn't any principled man be willing to die for what he believes in? People have nobly died for much less than their devotion and love to the God they worship and to whom they attribute credit for all that is good.
That is a twisted interpretation of human and social justification for acts and actions in the name of God and the teachings of the Son, not the Words of the Father and Son. The sacrifices asked of you is to spread the word of the Father, to live a humble and good life on the path set before you by Christ your Savior, not joe blow your Savior. Jesus did not teach through violence, bullying or condemnation to nonbelievers. He spoke and those that chose to followed did, those that didn't were not harassed or killed by Jesus or his followers.
If I'm not mistaken, the religions that believe in the existence of God, there is but one God. It's not your God, or their God; there's no my God is better than your God because if that is your mentally you go against God's commandment and will die in sin anyway.
1. Religious people (in this case, especially practicing Christians)
2. "Civil disobedience" specifically, is kind of a tough one, but I would say for example refusing take have any part in or to acknowledge gay marriages. There are also pro-life protests (as the movie showed), or pulling your kid out of class when they're teaching something that contradicts your faith, or boycotts, and then of course there is simply just asserting your faith (for example, even with something as simple as a Jesus fish on your car). Admittedly, such specific and practical strategies are not really discussed as often as they should be at these functions. I guess it's usually more just about having that mindset, and encouraging conviction in a world of apathy and subjectivism.
Let's go the second most discussed topic abortions. Your religion teaches you that abortion is taking of a life, ok. In spreading your religion, you may even stand outside of clinics and condemn the act that is about to take place in that clinic, because you want those people to know that your teaching values life. ok
When you bomb a clinic or kill a doctor you claim God told me to do this or that; God spoke to me; God would want me to do this or that; I prayed for guidance. All you did was sin in God's name, not because God blessed your actions beforehand, but because you believe your religion allows you to use Jesus' forgiveness to commit sins. Even when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorra, the innocent were sought out, now we have "casualties of war". People have religious choices so what's the mindset that separates the a fundamentalists from an extremists?
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
I think they are just as dangerous and looney as the lunatic radical/extremist/fundamentalist (or whatever the overly-liberal PC people want to call them, this week) Muslims.
Both need to get a life and get that HUGE stick out of their ass.
It's going to be sad when they die and they realize that they "gave their lives" or "sacrificed their lives" for a god that is saddened and disappointed in their violent, hateful, obsessive behavior. God will ask them why they devoted their lives to the written works of men.
God will teach them a lesson when he sends them back to earth, as a horsefly to eat shit all day or a tick attatched to a hippo's ass.
I think they are just as dangerous and looney as the lunatic radical/extremist/fundamentalist (or whatever the overly-liberal PC people want to call them, this week) Muslims.
Based on what? There's a huge gray area between "looney" and "violent". They may be crazy, but violent?
"All governments are murderers and liars."
-Bill Hicks
No, but all Christians are taught that Jews killed Jesus, put this teaching in that setting.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
ummm, yeah. remember a little thing called the crusades? Remember how Bush called this war a crusade? remember seeing images of civilians in fallujah burnt to a crisp from OUR white phosphorous?
And again, the point of this thread is about the documentary. the documentary is teaching young children to wage their own holy war. If that isn;t the definition of wrong, i don't know what is!
There are no true Words that directs you, the servant, to kill or kill in his name or to die in his name. Even suicide is considered a sin.
That is a twisted interpretation of human and social justification for acts and actions in the name of God and the teachings of the Son, not the Words of the Father and Son. The sacrifices asked of you is to spread the word of the Father, to live a humble and good life on the path set before you by Christ your Savior, not joe blow your Savior. Jesus did not teach through violence, bullying or condemnation to nonbelievers. He spoke and those that chose to followed did, those that didn't were not harassed or killed by Jesus or his followers.
If I'm not mistaken, the religions that believe in the existence of God, there is but one God. It's not your God, or their God; there's no my God is better than your God because if that is your mentally you go against God's commandment and will die in sin anyway.
Let's go the second most discussed topic abortions. Your religion teaches you that abortion is taking of a life, ok. In spreading your religion, you may even stand outside of clinics and condemn the act that is about to take place in that clinic, because you want those people to know that your teaching values life. ok
When you bomb a clinic or kill a doctor you claim God told me to do this or that; God spoke to me; God would want me to do this or that; I prayed for guidance. All you did was sin in God's name, not because God blessed your actions beforehand, but because you believe your religion allows you to use Jesus' forgiveness to commit sins. Even when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorra, the innocent were sought out, now we have "casualties of war". People have religious choices so what's the mindset that separates the a fundamentalists from an extremists?
Once again, let me say that I do not condone violence, nor does any good Christian. I was pretty clear in defending a willingness to DIE for your beliefs, NOT TO KILL for them. I also specifically said that faith is to be spread through non-violent means. How did this not get accross? Violence is wrong - the bible teaches that, the church teaches that, and I believe that.
"It was Luke's fault" (Ed after stumbling on Soon Forget at Kitchener '05)
I don't understand this. How does your death benefit god? I mean, when you "die for your country," your country benefits from your actions on the battlefield. What does god get?
God is omnipotent and does not need to "benefit" from anything we do. However, He does love us and in return He asks us to love Him with all our hearts, all our minds, and all our stregth. We are not all obligated to die for God. However given the choice between death and insulting or denying God for example, if we love Him as we should, then we would first choose death. Morality is not always about strict consequencialism (ie. what good would come from your death), sometimes it's just about virtue.
"It was Luke's fault" (Ed after stumbling on Soon Forget at Kitchener '05)
You know... when you read the Bible... God was talking to all kinds of people.
Why isn't God talking to anyone today... except that crazy homeless guy that lives on Fairfax?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
God is omnipotent and does not need to "benefit" from anything we do. However, He does love us and in return He asks us to love Him with all our hearts, all our minds, and all our stregth. We are not all obligated to die for God. However given the choice between death and insulting or denying God for example, if we love Him as we should, then we would first choose death. Morality is not always about strict consequencialism (ie. what good would come from your death), sometimes it's just about virtue.
Can a child understand this in an enviroment that mixes politics and religion, them vs us? Can a child understand the true consequences of what a holy war entails? Many people lose their faith and in doing so may deny God, at that point should they just kill themselves? Or does life offer them a chance to fine their way back to God. Will this be taught? Jesus did not kill Judus because he denied him. Judus took his own life because he betrayed a friend.
Even you stated you would be concerned as what your child was being taught in school. Does a Bible camp make you less concern at what and how your child is being taught about your faith? If the message is being taught for the wrong reasons, then it weakens the faith it was founded upon.
At this point, all we are discussing are the limited clips that have been released regarding this documentary, they may have been taken out of context of the full documentary, if not, then you should speak out accordingly.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
Can a child understand this in an enviroment that mixes politics and religion, them vs us? Can a child understand the true consequences of what a holy war entails? Many people lose their faith and in doing so may deny God, at that point should they just kill themselves? Or does life offer them a chance to fine their way back to God. Will this be taught? Jesus did not kill Judus because he denied him. Judus took his own life because he betrayed a friend.
Even you stated you would be concerned as what your child was being taught in school. Does a Bible camp make you less concern at what and how your child is being taught about your faith? If the message is being taught for the wrong reasons, then it weakens the faith it was founded upon.
At this point, all we are discussing are the limited clips that have been released regarding this documentary, they may have been taken out of context of the full documentary, if not, then you should speak out accordingly.
the quotes speak for themselvs. and, you can watch clips. having kids praying in front of a picture of Bush is not what religion should be about. Asking them if they are prepared to fight is not either. Imagine Jesus telling his followers to kill the romans, or the jews.
it is time to stop minipulating religion, and way past time for true Chrisitans to stand up and denouce this kind of worship....the same way we expect saudi clerics to stop teaching hate.
Once again, let me say that I do not condone violence, nor does any good Christian. I was pretty clear in defending a willingness to DIE for your beliefs, NOT TO KILL for them. I also specifically said that faith is to be spread through non-violent means. How did this not get accross? Violence is wrong - the bible teaches that, the church teaches that, and I believe that.
Clarification, in most cases the use of "you" was metaphorically instead of saying Christians this, Christians that. It was not meant as a personal attack.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
Clarification, in most cases the use of "you" was metaphorically instead of saying Christians this, Christians that. It was not meant as a personal attack.
Well then in that case I agree with most of what you said as far as for those to whom it actually applies. However, I think people have a tendancy to greatly overestimate how many Christians are even potentially like this. I've known many MANY very religious Christians, and almost never were any of them (at least as far as I could tell) anything less than peaceful and loving, and even the few who weren't never really posed any sort of real threat to anyone else other than being a pain in the ass.
Then again, I live in Canada. From what I've seen and heard of American Christians, it is quite possible that they may be more prone to that sort of militaristic attitude down there.
"It was Luke's fault" (Ed after stumbling on Soon Forget at Kitchener '05)
Can a child understand this in an enviroment that mixes politics and religion, them vs us? Can a child understand the true consequences of what a holy war entails? Many people lose their faith and in doing so may deny God, at that point should they just kill themselves? Or does life offer them a chance to fine their way back to God. Will this be taught? Jesus did not kill Judus because he denied him. Judus took his own life because he betrayed a friend.
Even you stated you would be concerned as what your child was being taught in school. Does a Bible camp make you less concern at what and how your child is being taught about your faith? If the message is being taught for the wrong reasons, then it weakens the faith it was founded upon.
At this point, all we are discussing are the limited clips that have been released regarding this documentary, they may have been taken out of context of the full documentary, if not, then you should speak out accordingly.
I guess you bring up a good point. It's one thing when dealing with youth and adults, as you can hope that they'd be able to fully understand the symbolism and the underlying message of peace, but with kids you need to be more careful. With kids the message of peace and love should be made more explicit. Also, I believe it's just as important to know what they're teaching your kids at things like this as it is to know what they're teaching your kids in school. You can't always be aware of everything as a parent, but you should try to talk to your kids about this sort of thing.
"It was Luke's fault" (Ed after stumbling on Soon Forget at Kitchener '05)
having kids praying in front of a picture of Bush is not what religion should be about.
Woah, OK I never noticed that part - that is pretty disturbing. At all the functions I've been to, they've always been very careful to remain non-partisan and just focus on issues instead when dealing with politics at all. But again, that may just be the difference between Canadian and American Christians.
Ps. I never thought of Bush as really being a model Christian either - POSSIBLY the lesser of two evils, but I'm certainly not a fan.
"It was Luke's fault" (Ed after stumbling on Soon Forget at Kitchener '05)
God is omnipotent and does not need to "benefit" from anything we do. However, He does love us and in return He asks us to love Him with all our hearts, all our minds, and all our stregth. We are not all obligated to die for God. However given the choice between death and insulting or denying God for example, if we love Him as we should, then we would first choose death. Morality is not always about strict consequencialism (ie. what good would come from your death), sometimes it's just about virtue.
I guess I just don't see the point. I love my kids and want them to love me, but I gotta tell ya, if they could save their lives by insulting me, then let the insults fly. They can deny me all day long. I'd know they love me and are just saying or doing what they have to do to get by. If they felt really bad about it, they could always make it up to me later, wash my car or something. You'd think a god that sacrificed his own son for us would feel sort of the same way.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
essentially, yes. read the reviews of this thing. then tell me if you could ever picture the the teacher's words coming out of jesus's mouth.
if the answer is no, then these people are NOT Christians.
+5 billion
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
jesus camp : A place to create america's future terrorists, and its not hard to see the neocons smile over this.
The holly war is coming.
Those who will fight, kill and die in jesus name are the ones truley with satan in thier hearts.
They tell you to pray while the devil's on thier shoulder.
these kids will forcefully become our enemies.
we will have no choice, with good on our side,
but to fight.
becAuse our freedom will be at risk
i hope i am so very wrong.
i hope these camps teach the true nature of jesus.
but i highly doubt it.
have you seen the movie? It's a little out of the mainstream (the camp) but if you think they are preaching force and violence it's b/c YOU want to believe it.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Comments
Violence does not have to start out with an initial physical contact act. A thought, a concept, can be planted and modeled, intentionally or unintentionally. Lets take the constant example that's always given, homosexuals. Religious leaders and teachers don't advocate going out and physically attacking gays. Yet, they remind their followers that this lifestyle as a sin; they are taught that these people will automatically go to Hell, They are taught that Jesus does not love gays. Now, with those concepts planted, people tend to react violently to gays, not because they have physically done anything to them, but because of what they have been taught, what they have learned, what they have heard. A person doesn't need military training to react, harm or kill, but playing toy soldier in the name of God only intensifies a dormant seed.
I have found that people who refer to themselves as "hillbillies" to be some of the most faithful, loyal, be there for you, need a hand type folks you would love to be able to call friend or neighbor.
Yet, were talking about a place in North Dakota, any descriptive words for the people of the Heartland you'd like to share? Other than, Opps, there's no names on these red and blue boxes!!!!
naděje umírá poslední
spot on!
"but their dillussions are feeling dangerous to me"
www.amnesty.org.uk
www.amnesty.org.uk
There are no true Words that directs you, the servant, to kill or kill in his name or to die in his name. Even suicide is considered a sin.
That is a twisted interpretation of human and social justification for acts and actions in the name of God and the teachings of the Son, not the Words of the Father and Son. The sacrifices asked of you is to spread the word of the Father, to live a humble and good life on the path set before you by Christ your Savior, not joe blow your Savior. Jesus did not teach through violence, bullying or condemnation to nonbelievers. He spoke and those that chose to followed did, those that didn't were not harassed or killed by Jesus or his followers.
If I'm not mistaken, the religions that believe in the existence of God, there is but one God. It's not your God, or their God; there's no my God is better than your God because if that is your mentally you go against God's commandment and will die in sin anyway.
Let's go the second most discussed topic abortions. Your religion teaches you that abortion is taking of a life, ok. In spreading your religion, you may even stand outside of clinics and condemn the act that is about to take place in that clinic, because you want those people to know that your teaching values life. ok
When you bomb a clinic or kill a doctor you claim God told me to do this or that; God spoke to me; God would want me to do this or that; I prayed for guidance. All you did was sin in God's name, not because God blessed your actions beforehand, but because you believe your religion allows you to use Jesus' forgiveness to commit sins. Even when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorra, the innocent were sought out, now we have "casualties of war". People have religious choices so what's the mindset that separates the a fundamentalists from an extremists?
Both need to get a life and get that HUGE stick out of their ass.
It's going to be sad when they die and they realize that they "gave their lives" or "sacrificed their lives" for a god that is saddened and disappointed in their violent, hateful, obsessive behavior. God will ask them why they devoted their lives to the written works of men.
God will teach them a lesson when he sends them back to earth, as a horsefly to eat shit all day or a tick attatched to a hippo's ass.
Based on what? There's a huge gray area between "looney" and "violent". They may be crazy, but violent?
-Bill Hicks
this whole post deals with a documentary that teaches kids about a christian holy war, and violence is definitely a theme in this doc.
that's what this whole thread is about....not just about some boring ass bible camp.
Have they beheaded anyone, or blown anyone up?
The message, conditioning and training at these "Jesus Camps" is blatantly clear and violence is one of the main themes they are stressing.
If this was an Islamic camp where they are teaching their kids the very same type theme, jsand would be all over the Muslims.
No, but all Christians are taught that Jews killed Jesus, put this teaching in that setting.
ummm, yeah. remember a little thing called the crusades? Remember how Bush called this war a crusade? remember seeing images of civilians in fallujah burnt to a crisp from OUR white phosphorous?
And again, the point of this thread is about the documentary. the documentary is teaching young children to wage their own holy war. If that isn;t the definition of wrong, i don't know what is!
that's exactly the point, thank you. the double standard in this country is unreal.
this stuff IS being taught in Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan, and its creating an entire new generation of "holy warriors". are we trying to do the same?
So they are telling the kids to be martyrs and to go out and kill others because of their religion?
essentially, yes. read the reviews of this thing. then tell me if you could ever picture the the teacher's words coming out of jesus's mouth.
if the answer is no, then these people are NOT Christians.
"It was Luke's fault" (Ed after stumbling on Soon Forget at Kitchener '05)
"It was Luke's fault" (Ed after stumbling on Soon Forget at Kitchener '05)
Why isn't God talking to anyone today... except that crazy homeless guy that lives on Fairfax?
Hail, Hail!!!
Can a child understand this in an enviroment that mixes politics and religion, them vs us? Can a child understand the true consequences of what a holy war entails? Many people lose their faith and in doing so may deny God, at that point should they just kill themselves? Or does life offer them a chance to fine their way back to God. Will this be taught? Jesus did not kill Judus because he denied him. Judus took his own life because he betrayed a friend.
Even you stated you would be concerned as what your child was being taught in school. Does a Bible camp make you less concern at what and how your child is being taught about your faith? If the message is being taught for the wrong reasons, then it weakens the faith it was founded upon.
At this point, all we are discussing are the limited clips that have been released regarding this documentary, they may have been taken out of context of the full documentary, if not, then you should speak out accordingly.
the quotes speak for themselvs. and, you can watch clips. having kids praying in front of a picture of Bush is not what religion should be about. Asking them if they are prepared to fight is not either. Imagine Jesus telling his followers to kill the romans, or the jews.
it is time to stop minipulating religion, and way past time for true Chrisitans to stand up and denouce this kind of worship....the same way we expect saudi clerics to stop teaching hate.
Clarification, in most cases the use of "you" was metaphorically instead of saying Christians this, Christians that. It was not meant as a personal attack.
Then again, I live in Canada. From what I've seen and heard of American Christians, it is quite possible that they may be more prone to that sort of militaristic attitude down there.
"It was Luke's fault" (Ed after stumbling on Soon Forget at Kitchener '05)
"It was Luke's fault" (Ed after stumbling on Soon Forget at Kitchener '05)
Ps. I never thought of Bush as really being a model Christian either - POSSIBLY the lesser of two evils, but I'm certainly not a fan.
"It was Luke's fault" (Ed after stumbling on Soon Forget at Kitchener '05)
The holly war is coming.
Those who will fight, kill and die in jesus name are the ones truley with satan in thier hearts.
They tell you to pray while the devil's on thier shoulder.
these kids will forcefully become our enemies.
we will have no choice, with good on our side,
but to fight.
becAuse our freedom will be at risk
i hope i am so very wrong.
i hope these camps teach the true nature of jesus.
but i highly doubt it.
+5 billion
have you seen the movie? It's a little out of the mainstream (the camp) but if you think they are preaching force and violence it's b/c YOU want to believe it.