Jesus Camp, the documentary

KidCarnivore

Cosmo wrote:

...
Weren't the Branch Dividians an off-shoot of some Christian Church?

Yes. The Branch Davidians posed no threat other than an imaginary one to the government. The Davidians were attacked, they didn't attack anyone themselves. They did surprisingly little to warrant a governmental attack from tanks.

Cosmo

KidCarnivore wrote:

I'm not saying there's no danger or potential for harm with the military stuff, but that's very, very far from the terrorist parallels it seems to be drawing here.

...
I don't think anyone equates these 'Jesus Camps' with the Al Qaeda camps of Afghanistan under Taliban rule... but, I can see the sense of paranoia leading to the feeling of fear of outsiders resulting the arming of themselves.
It has slipped down that slope before and it can happen again.. if we fail the learn the lessons history is trying to teach us.

KidCarnivore

Cosmo wrote:

...
I don't think anyone equates these 'Jesus Camps' with the Al Qaeda camps of Afghanistan under Taliban rule... but, I can see the sense of paranoia leading to the feeling of fear of outsiders resulting the arming of themselves.
It has slipped down that slope before and it can happen again.. if we fail the learn the lessons history is trying to teach us.

You're right, and it's a good point. However, an earlier post questioned why the president wouldn't address this. To me, that's where the criticism gets sketchy.

given2fall

Open wrote:

You're faith is between you and "god"...nothing else needs to be involved..the second you let an outside force, whatever it may be, get involved, then god is no longer involved, it becomes human v human.

That's absurd. I can't share my faith with other like-minded people in an environment that fosters spiritual growth, learning, inspiration, and encouragement. If you rely solely on your own merit in coming to know God, then isn't that a little arrogant, self-riteous, and ignorant? Besides, what your saying just sounds like a typical excuse not to go to church - like those people who say they can spend an hour on Sunday praying alone at home, but they never actually do because when it boils down to it they're really just too lazy in their faith. I'm not saying you should just be a mindless drone who memorizes the bible but actually understands nothing of his faith, but there's a lot to be said for community and everything else that the church (and these kinds of functions) can provide.

given2fall

bryanfury wrote:

this type of camp has to be shut down now!

That would be a huge infringement on their freedoms of speech and religion. These people have done nothing wrong!

Open

given2fall wrote:

That's absurd. I can't share my faith with other like-minded people in an environment that fosters spiritual growth, learning, inspiration, and encouragement. If you rely solely on your own merit in coming to know God, then isn't that a little arrogant, self-riteous, and ignorant? Besides, what your saying just sounds like a typical excuse not to go to church - like those people who say they can spend an hour on Sunday praying alone at home, but they never actually do because when it boils down to it they're really just too lazy in their faith. I'm not saying you should just be a mindless drone who memorizes the bible but actually understands nothing of his faith, but there's a lot to be said for community and everything else that the church (and these kinds of functions) can provide.

My point is when people defend their religion; subconsciously it's a selfish act, it's personal and has nothing to do with "god" at that point.

given2fall

Open wrote:

My point is when people defend their religion; subconsciously it's a selfish act, it's personal and has nothing to do with "god" at that point.

Oh, OK, I guess I misunderstood you - sorry. And you may be right, but then I could say that if I were to insult your mother and you defended her, that would be just as selfish. You'd be acting out of anger as if it were a personal offence to you, and your mom would really have nothing to do with it. However, the reason it would offend you personally is because you love your mom (and the reason a Christian would be offended is because he loves God and his fellow Christians), so isn't that understandable? Besides, one could always ask whether or not any act is ever truly unselfish - you could call almost anything selfish, but that doesn't make it wrong or unjustified.

Smellyman2

Any "camp" that has kids convulsing on the floor, speaking in tongues, worshipping a cardboard cutout of George Bush, taping slogans over their mouths, dressing them in fatigues and believing they need to be saved and confess all their sins at age 5 is f'd up in my book. The list goes on and on.

People running the camp can (and will) go to hell.

chopitdown

Smellyman wrote:

People running the camp can (and will) go to hell.

that's a fairly bold statement.

even flow?

puremagic wrote:

Many people send their children to bible camps no harm, no foul. This one goes a little further. What is your initial reaction to this upcoming documentary?

People are people should why should it be.....or something like that.

Thanks, eh!

puremagic

KidCarnivore wrote:

Let me be the first to call bullshit on the criticism here. Is this group a little nutty? Sure. Fundamentalist? By their own admission. But violent? Come on! If the Christian equivalent of extremism is a bunch of hillbillies dressing their kids in fatigues and having them memorizing Bible verses, I think you can all go back to sleep. There's a huge deal of difference between actual military training camps and using military metaphors. At worst, this group is distasteful and a little nutty.

Violence does not have to start out with an initial physical contact act. A thought, a concept, can be planted and modeled, intentionally or unintentionally. Lets take the constant example that's always given, homosexuals. Religious leaders and teachers don't advocate going out and physically attacking gays. Yet, they remind their followers that this lifestyle as a sin; they are taught that these people will automatically go to Hell, They are taught that Jesus does not love gays. Now, with those concepts planted, people tend to react violently to gays, not because they have physically done anything to them, but because of what they have been taught, what they have learned, what they have heard. A person doesn't need military training to react, harm or kill, but playing toy soldier in the name of God only intensifies a dormant seed.

I have found that people who refer to themselves as "hillbillies" to be some of the most faithful, loyal, be there for you, need a hand type folks you would love to be able to call friend or neighbor.

Yet, were talking about a place in North Dakota, any descriptive words for the people of the Heartland you'd like to share? Other than, Opps, there's no names on these red and blue boxes!!!!

hippiemom

given2fall wrote:

Jesus may not have specifically asked us to die for Him (at leasy not in any particular passage that I can recall right now, though He does ask us to be willing to make sacrifices), but shouldn't any principled man be willing to die for what he believes in? People have nobly died for much less than their devotion and love to the God they worship and to whom they attribute credit for all that is good.

I don't understand this. How does your death benefit god? I mean, when you "die for your country," your country benefits from your actions on the battlefield. What does god get?

Collin

I think they're idiots, scary idiots.

bryanfury

Collin wrote:

I think they're idiots, scary idiots.

spot on!

"but their dillussions are feeling dangerous to me"

Puck78

given2fall wrote:

Christians need to be prepared for that, and we must be ready to defend our faith - not through violence, but through prayer, civil disobedience, non-comformity, etc.

there's a definition for a period dominated by conservators thinking to be non-comfortmist: Restauration

Puck78

hippiemom wrote:

I don't understand this. How does your death benefit god? I mean, when you "die for your country," your country benefits from your actions on the battlefield. What does god get?

neither this, hippiemom: your country benefit if you take a task to the end, not if you die trying to reach it...

puremagic

given2fall wrote:

I have to take issue with your last statement, though. Jesus may not have specifically asked us to die for Him (at leasy not in any particular passage that I can recall right now, though He does ask us to be willing to make sacrifices), ...

There are no true Words that directs you, the servant, to kill or kill in his name or to die in his name. Even suicide is considered a sin.

given2fall wrote:

but shouldn't any principled man be willing to die for what he believes in? People have nobly died for much less than their devotion and love to the God they worship and to whom they attribute credit for all that is good.

That is a twisted interpretation of human and social justification for acts and actions in the name of God and the teachings of the Son, not the Words of the Father and Son. The sacrifices asked of you is to spread the word of the Father, to live a humble and good life on the path set before you by Christ your Savior, not joe blow your Savior. Jesus did not teach through violence, bullying or condemnation to nonbelievers. He spoke and those that chose to followed did, those that didn't were not harassed or killed by Jesus or his followers.

If I'm not mistaken, the religions that believe in the existence of God, there is but one God. It's not your God, or their God; there's no my God is better than your God because if that is your mentally you go against God's commandment and will die in sin anyway.

given2fall wrote:

1. Religious people (in this case, especially practicing Christians)
2. "Civil disobedience" specifically, is kind of a tough one, but I would say for example refusing take have any part in or to acknowledge gay marriages. There are also pro-life protests (as the movie showed), or pulling your kid out of class when they're teaching something that contradicts your faith, or boycotts, and then of course there is simply just asserting your faith (for example, even with something as simple as a Jesus fish on your car). Admittedly, such specific and practical strategies are not really discussed as often as they should be at these functions. I guess it's usually more just about having that mindset, and encouraging conviction in a world of apathy and subjectivism.

Let's go the second most discussed topic abortions. Your religion teaches you that abortion is taking of a life, ok. In spreading your religion, you may even stand outside of clinics and condemn the act that is about to take place in that clinic, because you want those people to know that your teaching values life. ok

When you bomb a clinic or kill a doctor you claim God told me to do this or that; God spoke to me; God would want me to do this or that; I prayed for guidance. All you did was sin in God's name, not because God blessed your actions beforehand, but because you believe your religion allows you to use Jesus' forgiveness to commit sins. Even when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorra, the innocent were sought out, now we have "casualties of war". People have religious choices so what's the mindset that separates the a fundamentalists from an extremists?

NMyTree

I think they are just as dangerous and looney as the lunatic radical/extremist/fundamentalist (or whatever the overly-liberal PC people want to call them, this week) Muslims.

Both need to get a life and get that HUGE stick out of their ass.

It's going to be sad when they die and they realize that they "gave their lives" or "sacrificed their lives" for a god that is saddened and disappointed in their violent, hateful, obsessive behavior. God will ask them why they devoted their lives to the written works of men.


God will teach them a lesson when he sends them back to earth, as a horsefly to eat shit all day or a tick attatched to a hippo's ass.

KidCarnivore

NMyTree wrote:

I think they are just as dangerous and looney as the lunatic radical/extremist/fundamentalist (or whatever the overly-liberal PC people want to call them, this week) Muslims.

Based on what? There's a huge gray area between "looney" and "violent". They may be crazy, but violent?

bryanfury

KidCarnivore wrote:

Based on what? There's a huge gray area between "looney" and "violent". They may be crazy, but violent?

this whole post deals with a documentary that teaches kids about a christian holy war, and violence is definitely a theme in this doc.

that's what this whole thread is about....not just about some boring ass bible camp.