Jesus Camp, the documentary

puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
edited October 2006 in A Moving Train
Many people send their children to bible camps no harm, no foul. This one goes a little further. What is your initial reaction to this upcoming documentary?
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
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  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    puremagic wrote:
    Many people send their children to bible camps no harm, no foul. This one goes a little further. What is your initial reaction to this upcoming documentary?
    ...
    Is this realated to that church that locked everyone inside because they think that the end of the world is going to happen in the next couple of days?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Is this realated to that church that locked everyone inside because they think that the end of the world is going to happen in the next couple of days?


    This is about the one in North Dakota. It just makes me wonder if they are trying to find the next Billy Graham or the next home grown terrorist? But, it should be interesting on how children's minds are being shaped and by whom.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_EKHK1C2IE
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222

    yes "reasonable" :rolleyes:
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    it's definitely a lot more charasmatic than i thought it would be. I'd be interested to see how the movie plays out rather than the trailer.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907

    That doesn't help. Bible camps are a big thing and for those that believe, a good thing. When it's tampered with hate and misinformation regarding other religions and politics then are they on the same line as cult or terrorists training camps. Supposedly, Jesus died for their sins, he never asked them to die in his name.

    At what point does teaching become brainwashing? and to what end?
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • North America could use a lot more camps like that.
    I've been to retreats, conferences, etc. that were pretty similar and believe me, we're not training to be terrorists. That "war" that they speak of is a spiritual warfare, and I think it's an appropriate term given how faith is being attacked these days. The world is always declaring war on the faithful (as evidenced by that so-called "reasonable response") and Christians need to be prepared for that, and we must be ready to defend our faith - not through violence, but through prayer, civil disobedience, non-comformity, etc.

    "It was Luke's fault" (Ed after stumbling on Soon Forget at Kitchener '05)
  • puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
    given2fall wrote:
    The world is always declaring war on the faithful (as evidenced by that so-called "reasonable response") and Christians need to be prepared for that, and we must be ready to defend our faith - not through violence, but through prayer, civil disobedience, non-comformity, etc.


    1. Who are the faithful?

    2. In preparing for and defending a war on the faithful, what would you consider civil disobedience and non-comformity, etc. acts or actions?
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • puremagic wrote:
    That doesn't help. Bible camps are a big thing and for those that believe, a good thing. When it's tampered with hate and misinformation regarding other religions and politics then are they on the same line as cult or terrorists training camps. Supposedly, Jesus died for their sins, he never asked them to die in his name.

    At what point does teaching become brainwashing? and to what end?
    Some good points. There's always the potential for misuse and abuse of faith, and there may even be some camps/events sending messages that aren't as peaceful as the many functions in which I've participated. However, they would be the exception to the rule as I myself have never heard a christian speaker (at any of these such events) even imply that the use of force would ever be justified.
    I have to take issue with your last statement, though. Jesus may not have specifically asked us to die for Him (at leasy not in any particular passage that I can recall right now, though He does ask us to be willing to make sacrifices), but shouldn't any principled man be willing to die for what he believes in? People have nobly died for much less than their devotion and love to the God they worship and to whom they attribute credit for all that is good.

    "It was Luke's fault" (Ed after stumbling on Soon Forget at Kitchener '05)
  • puremagic wrote:
    1. Who are the faithful?

    2. In preparing for and defending a war on the faithful, what would you consider civil disobedience and non-comformity, etc. acts or actions?
    1. Religious people (in this case, especially practicing Christians)
    2. "Civil disobedience" specifically, is kind of a tough one, but I would say for example refusing take have any part in or to acknowledge gay marriages. There are also pro-life protests (as the movie showed), or pulling your kid out of class when they're teaching something that contradicts your faith, or boycotts, and then of course there is simply just asserting your faith (for example, even with something as simple as a Jesus fish on your car). Admittedly, such specific and practical strategies are not really discussed as often as they should be at these functions. I guess it's usually more just about having that mindset, and encouraging conviction in a world of apathy and subjectivism.

    "It was Luke's fault" (Ed after stumbling on Soon Forget at Kitchener '05)
  • this report scared me the first time i saw it.

    extremism has to start somwhere, and just think of the outcome of 30- years of thsi type of training on our youth. they then turn and teach the same to their children, and next thing you know, we live in saudi arabia, where extremists control everything.

    this type of camp has to be shut down now!

    why is Bush not interested in stemming this type of fundamentalism?
    those undecided, needn't have faith to be free
  • prismprism Posts: 2,440
    bryanfury wrote:
    this report scared me the first time i saw it.

    extremism has to start somwhere, and just think of the outcome of 30- years of thsi type of training on our youth. they then turn and teach the same to their children, and next thing you know, we live in saudi arabia, where extremists control everything.

    this type of camp has to be shut down now!

    why is Bush not interested in stemming this type of fundamentalism?


    because these type of fundamentalist are the ones that put him in office.
    *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
    angels share laughter
    *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
  • prism wrote:
    because these type of fundamentalist are the ones that put him in office.

    kind of a rhetorical question :)

    but where is the media to call this type of bullshit? covering a football game in a city that is still in ruins?

    what a joke...
    those undecided, needn't have faith to be free
  • JOEJOEJOEJOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,609
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Is this realated to that church that locked everyone inside because they think that the end of the world is going to happen in the next couple of days?

    The world is ending in the next couple of days???.....that so doesn't work with my schedule......can we push ot back a few thousand years?

    I just got a haircut & a car wash yesterday!....would really suck if both went to waste!....not to mention all of the unused giftcards!
  • Let me be the first to call bullshit on the criticism here. Is this group a little nutty? Sure. Fundamentalist? By their own admission. But violent? Come on! If the Christian equivalent of extremism is a bunch of hillbillies dressing their kids in fatigues and having them memorizing Bible verses, I think you can all go back to sleep. There's a huge deal of difference between actual military training camps and using military metaphors. At worst, this group is distasteful and a little nutty.
    "All governments are murderers and liars."
    -Bill Hicks
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    JOEJOEJOE wrote:
    The world is ending in the next couple of days???.....that so doesn't work with my schedule......can we push ot back a few thousand years?

    I just got a haircut & a car wash yesterday!....would really suck if both went to waste!....not to mention all of the unused giftcards!
    ...
    I know...
    and... "the next couple of days"... was a couple of weeks ago. I'm guessing the inside of that church is smeeling kinda ripe, these days.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • OpenOpen Posts: 792
    given2fall wrote:
    North America could use a lot more camps like that.
    I've been to retreats, conferences, etc. that were pretty similar and believe me, we're not training to be terrorists. That "war" that they speak of is a spiritual warfare, and I think it's an appropriate term given how faith is being attacked these days. The world is always declaring war on the faithful (as evidenced by that so-called "reasonable response") and Christians need to be prepared for that, and we must be ready to defend our faith - not through violence, but through prayer, civil disobedience, non-comformity, etc.

    You're faith is between you and "god"...nothing else needs to be involved..the second you let an outside force, whatever it may be, get involved, then god is no longer involved, it becomes human v human.
  • JOEJOEJOEJOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,609
    Let me be the first to call bullshit on the criticism here. Is this group a little nutty? Sure. Fundamentalist? By their own admission. But violent? Come on! If the Christian equivalent of extremism is a bunch of hillbillies dressing their kids in fatigues and having them memorizing Bible verses, I think you can all go back to sleep. There's a huge deal of difference between actual military training camps and using military metaphors. At worst, this group is distasteful and a little nutty.

    To play Devils advocate here, what if the military outfits rub-off on the kids, and they then use military tactics to "spread the word"?
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    JOEJOEJOE wrote:
    To play Devils advocate here, what if the military outfits rub-off on the kids, and they then use military tactics to "spread the word"?
    ...
    Weren't the Branch Dividians an off-shoot of some Christian Church?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • I'm not saying there's no danger or potential for harm with the military stuff, but that's very, very far from the terrorist parallels it seems to be drawing here.
    "All governments are murderers and liars."
    -Bill Hicks
  • Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Weren't the Branch Dividians an off-shoot of some Christian Church?

    Yes. The Branch Davidians posed no threat other than an imaginary one to the government. The Davidians were attacked, they didn't attack anyone themselves. They did surprisingly little to warrant a governmental attack from tanks.
    "All governments are murderers and liars."
    -Bill Hicks
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    I'm not saying there's no danger or potential for harm with the military stuff, but that's very, very far from the terrorist parallels it seems to be drawing here.
    ...
    I don't think anyone equates these 'Jesus Camps' with the Al Qaeda camps of Afghanistan under Taliban rule... but, I can see the sense of paranoia leading to the feeling of fear of outsiders resulting the arming of themselves.
    It has slipped down that slope before and it can happen again.. if we fail the learn the lessons history is trying to teach us.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    I don't think anyone equates these 'Jesus Camps' with the Al Qaeda camps of Afghanistan under Taliban rule... but, I can see the sense of paranoia leading to the feeling of fear of outsiders resulting the arming of themselves.
    It has slipped down that slope before and it can happen again.. if we fail the learn the lessons history is trying to teach us.

    You're right, and it's a good point. However, an earlier post questioned why the president wouldn't address this. To me, that's where the criticism gets sketchy.
    "All governments are murderers and liars."
    -Bill Hicks
  • Open wrote:
    You're faith is between you and "god"...nothing else needs to be involved..the second you let an outside force, whatever it may be, get involved, then god is no longer involved, it becomes human v human.
    That's absurd. I can't share my faith with other like-minded people in an environment that fosters spiritual growth, learning, inspiration, and encouragement. If you rely solely on your own merit in coming to know God, then isn't that a little arrogant, self-riteous, and ignorant? Besides, what your saying just sounds like a typical excuse not to go to church - like those people who say they can spend an hour on Sunday praying alone at home, but they never actually do because when it boils down to it they're really just too lazy in their faith. I'm not saying you should just be a mindless drone who memorizes the bible but actually understands nothing of his faith, but there's a lot to be said for community and everything else that the church (and these kinds of functions) can provide.

    "It was Luke's fault" (Ed after stumbling on Soon Forget at Kitchener '05)
  • bryanfury wrote:
    this type of camp has to be shut down now!
    That would be a huge infringement on their freedoms of speech and religion. These people have done nothing wrong!

    "It was Luke's fault" (Ed after stumbling on Soon Forget at Kitchener '05)
  • OpenOpen Posts: 792
    given2fall wrote:
    That's absurd. I can't share my faith with other like-minded people in an environment that fosters spiritual growth, learning, inspiration, and encouragement. If you rely solely on your own merit in coming to know God, then isn't that a little arrogant, self-riteous, and ignorant? Besides, what your saying just sounds like a typical excuse not to go to church - like those people who say they can spend an hour on Sunday praying alone at home, but they never actually do because when it boils down to it they're really just too lazy in their faith. I'm not saying you should just be a mindless drone who memorizes the bible but actually understands nothing of his faith, but there's a lot to be said for community and everything else that the church (and these kinds of functions) can provide.

    My point is when people defend their religion; subconsciously it's a selfish act, it's personal and has nothing to do with "god" at that point.
  • Open wrote:
    My point is when people defend their religion; subconsciously it's a selfish act, it's personal and has nothing to do with "god" at that point.
    Oh, OK, I guess I misunderstood you - sorry. And you may be right, but then I could say that if I were to insult your mother and you defended her, that would be just as selfish. You'd be acting out of anger as if it were a personal offence to you, and your mom would really have nothing to do with it. However, the reason it would offend you personally is because you love your mom (and the reason a Christian would be offended is because he loves God and his fellow Christians), so isn't that understandable? Besides, one could always ask whether or not any act is ever truly unselfish - you could call almost anything selfish, but that doesn't make it wrong or unjustified.

    "It was Luke's fault" (Ed after stumbling on Soon Forget at Kitchener '05)
  • Any "camp" that has kids convulsing on the floor, speaking in tongues, worshipping a cardboard cutout of George Bush, taping slogans over their mouths, dressing them in fatigues and believing they need to be saved and confess all their sins at age 5 is f'd up in my book. The list goes on and on.

    People running the camp can (and will) go to hell.
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    Smellyman wrote:

    People running the camp can (and will) go to hell.

    that's a fairly bold statement.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • even flow?even flow? Posts: 8,066
    puremagic wrote:
    Many people send their children to bible camps no harm, no foul. This one goes a little further. What is your initial reaction to this upcoming documentary?


    People are people should why should it be.....or something like that.

    Thanks, eh!
    You've changed your place in this world!
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