Bush calls for a Palestinian state

Last Exodus

catefrances wrote:

you lost me with this comment.

The man called me a racist. this was a response.

Abookamongstthemany

Last Exodus wrote:

Oh please there are people on here who directly insult people, hurl racial remarks and obscenities who don't ever get banned because their ANTI everything views are accetable. So that's crap and you know it.

I've been banned before and so have a few people who I think you would consider 'ANTI everything' whatever that actually means. Although, I can't say there are too many people here who hurl racial remarks, or regularly use obscenities or insults....just a small few and it's gotten to be a bit tired lately. So no, what I said is not crap. You have went out of your way to use the personal angle in multiple posts, at least own up and quit trying to hide behind 'well, he did it too' and finally just grow up. Maybe then we can discuss things.

ThumbingMyWay32

I myself am tired of those folks who reply to everyone they disagree with with an arrogant, smug, yet calm demeanor. Then take the high road once they've sufficiently crawled under someones skin.

catefrances

Last Exodus wrote:

The man called me a racist. this was a response.

then you respond with decorum. you don't bring yourself down to the other's level. it just shows the same lack of intelligence.
and for everyone's information if you are a white person, palestinians are 'our race.' as are Jews. what you are doing when you class them as outside the 'white race' is merely racialising ethnicity.

ThumbingMyWay32

catefrances wrote:

then you respond with decorum. you don't bring yourself down to the other's level. it just shows the same lack of intelligence.

No it doesn't. Intelligent folks have the right to be just as big a prick as the next person. Decorum is simply choice.

Notice my use of the word 'person'. Someone commend me for my PC!

Kann

Last Exodus wrote:

And we all know the Euro controlled AI would never exaggerate a statistic or a fact to serve it's own purposes. These institutions you speak of are made up of human beings who are fallible and subject to bias like any other organization. AI is not god. I don't dispute the Palestinians largely live in terrible conditions. How do I know? I was just there. I went, despite all of my governments warnings not to go, and saw the West Bank myself. I went to Hebron, I went to Bethelhem. Do the Israelis live more comfortably? Absolutely. Why? Simple, an educated democratic people using its limited resources to create a burgeoning economy. If the Israelis can do it for themselves why can't the arabs? And don't feed me this American support bullshit. We did not even support Israel in the 67 War until the very end.


I also went to Egypt and to Jordan, and I can tell you that condition in those countries were just as desparate as the Palestinian. The reality is the average Arab government could give two shits about the Palestinians. They were kicked out Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt in large numbers. The Palestinians, sadly, are used by virtually every Arab and Muslim despot to serve their own purposes. Once it was Nasser, Qaddafi, Amin, Kohmeini, and now Ahmadnijad. It's all the same. The Saudis alone could provide the dough out of probably 1/4 of year's oil profits to build a Palestinian infratructure. But do they? No. Why not? They don't give a shit. That's the truth. So before you get on the Hamas bandwagon do some reading. Because they crap that gets churned out on this board is just that, crap.

So give me some real educated opinions. Not just bullshit opinions that are being fed to you by the radical left.

I'm not even gonna comment all your post. It drips with so much hate and anger that the few arguments you actually make are overflowed and unintelligible. From what I have read so far you seem completely dominated by your xenophobia, I'm sorry but it does not help you achieve reasonable debate.
There are two things to your post : you have good knowledge history, you invent travels. I went to Egypt to, it has nothing to do with a "desperate condition" or the "terrible conditions" the Palestinian live in. I believe it's the same for Jordan and most surrounding countries not at war right now (appart from lebanon - of course), you know why? Because neither country are facing the political (inside and with Israel), humanitarian (well you saw it yourself) and economical (since Hamas got in power I understand support has not been the same) crisis of Palestine right now.
Also what is the secret agenda of these organisations that spin statistic to serve their purpose? I am curious about that.
I do have advice though : consider getting in a soccer fan club, you get to hit people who don't look like you or think like you every week. yay. (you might have to relocate to Europe though).

ps : You seem surprised to have one of your threads deleted while insulting pearl jam fans on a pearl jam forum. I'm shocked.
pps : guess what? I disagree with youa and I am not hamas/mujahideen/from germany in the 40's.

catefrances

ThumbingMyWay32 wrote:

No it doesn't. Intelligent folks have the right to be just as big a prick as the next person. Decorum is simply choice.

Notice my use of the word 'person'. Someone commend me for my PC!

sure it does. they denigrate you for your opinion cause they can't respond in an intelligent manner. what you do is bury them in logic. or just smile.

but yes you are right, decorum is a choice. and i choose it.

Last Exodus

Byrnzie wrote:

I agree that the majority of Arab governments simply feather their own nests. The reason the Saudi government doesn't give a shit is because the west is it's biggest customer and outwardly showing support for the Palestinians, to the detriment of Israel, would jeopardise these lucrative relationships. The pro-western stance of the Saudi Government is one reason we now have Al Queda to contend with.
The reason why Hamas and Hezbollah are so popular is because the people want change, and these appear to be the only parties prepared to stand up for the populations of their respective countries. The problem the Western governments are now facing is that not all people are driven by money. In this part of the world religious beliefs tend to take precedence. Some people can't be bribed and paid off, but instead aspire to other ideals. This is where the tension in the Middle East arises and why we are now knee deep in a quagmire.

I partially agree. Where I disagree is the cause of the radical fundamentalism. I think that has little to do with religous belief and more to do with outright poverty and the disenfranchisement of many of the people in that part of the world who are largely oppressed by their own dictators and monarchs. Israel and the West and merely scapegoats. It is easier to blame them then have the people of those nations look at their own inner failings. This is a phenomenen that has repeated itself time and again all over the world. One need only look at 1930's Germany for a good analogy.

Last Exodus

Kann wrote:

I'm not even gonna comment all your post. It drips with so much hate and anger that the few arguments you actually make are overflowed and unintelligible. From what I have read so far you seem completely dominated by your xenophobia, I'm sorry but it does not help you achieve reasonable debate.
There are two things to your post : you have good knowledge history, you invent travels. I went to Egypt to, it has nothing to do with a "desperate condition" or the "terrible conditions" the Palestinian live in. I believe it's the same for Jordan and most surrounding countries not at war right now (appart from lebanon - of course), you know why? Because neither country are facing the political (inside and with Israel), humanitarian (well you saw it yourself) and economical (since Hamas got in power I understand support has not been the same) crisis of Palestine right now.
Also what is the secret agenda of these organisations that spin statistic to serve their purpose? I am curious about that.
I do have advice though : consider getting in a soccer fan club, you get to hit people who don't look like you or think like you every week. yay. (you might have to relocate to Europe though).

ps : You seem surprised to have one of your threads deleted while insulting pearl jam fans on a pearl jam forum. I'm shocked.
pps : guess what? I disagree with youa and I am not hamas/mujahideen/from germany in the 40's.

Didn't you say you weren't gonna comment on my post? Me confused

Last Exodus

Kann wrote:

I'm not even gonna comment all your post. It drips with so much hate and anger that the few arguments you actually make are overflowed and unintelligible. From what I have read so far you seem completely dominated by your xenophobia, I'm sorry but it does not help you achieve reasonable debate.
There are two things to your post : you have good knowledge history, you invent travels. I went to Egypt to, it has nothing to do with a "desperate condition" or the "terrible conditions" the Palestinian live in. I believe it's the same for Jordan and most surrounding countries not at war right now (appart from lebanon - of course), you know why? Because neither country are facing the political (inside and with Israel), humanitarian (well you saw it yourself) and economical (since Hamas got in power I understand support has not been the same) crisis of Palestine right now.
Also what is the secret agenda of these organisations that spin statistic to serve their purpose? I am curious about that.
I do have advice though : consider getting in a soccer

fan club, you get to hit people who don't look like you or think like you every week. yay. (you might have to relocate to Europe though).

ps : You seem surprised to have one of your threads deleted while insulting pearl jam fans on a pearl jam forum. I'm shocked.
pps : guess what? I disagree with youa and I am not hamas/mujahideen/from germany in the 40's.

and Soccers for pussies....

Last Exodus

catefrances wrote:

then you respond with decorum. you don't bring yourself down to the other's level. it just shows the same lack of intelligence.
and for everyone's information if you are a white person, palestinians are 'our race.' as are Jews. what you are doing when you class them as outside the 'white race' is merely racialising ethnicity.

I appreciate your point. But im lost on this palestinian race thing. I think i was misquoted because I never meant to say anything of the sort. Please point out what you are referring to because Im sure I phrased it wrong. I dont get into discussion of people's race ever.

catefrances

Last Exodus wrote:

I appreciate your point. But im lost on this palestinian race thing. I think i was misquoted because I never meant to say anything of the sort. Please point out what you are referring to because Im sure I phrased it wrong. I dont get into discussion of people's race ever.

i was commenting generally on what people constitute as race, it wasn't directed at anything you said. as far as i am concerned race is a social construct used for the purpose of exclusion and defining 'otherness'.

Last Exodus

catefrances wrote:

i was commenting generally on what people constitute as race, it wasn't directed at anything you said. as far as i am concerned race is a social construct used for the purpose of exclusion and defining 'otherness'.

you are refreshing...

catefrances

Last Exodus wrote:

I partially agree. Where I disagree is the cause of the radical fundamentalism. I think that has little to do with religous belief and more to do with outright poverty and the disenfranchisement of many of the people in that part of the world who are largely oppressed by their own dictators and monarchs. Israel and the West and merely scapegoats. It is easier to blame them then have the people of those nations look at their own inner failings. This is a phenomenen that has repeated itself time and again all over the world. One need only look at 1930's Germany for a good analogy.

dictators and monarchs that are supported by the one country that has too much power to be opposed. so called democratic nations should never support any monarchy.
and yes disenfranchisement through poverty has everything to do with fundamentalism. unfortunately in most cases it is in religion the poor often find solace. and so if you ignore the underlying basic shortcomings of a society, they will turn to what gives them comfort and a voice.
you can not disparage the source of this comfort without offering them a genuine viable alternative.

El_Kabong

MrBrian wrote:

Yep, infact chenney even called Mandela a terrorist in the 80's.
---

Even night clubs were blown up during that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe
----

annnnnd reagan vetoed a un resolution on international terrorism b/c it would classify certain friends <including s. africa> as terrorists

war on terrorism? since when!? for several decades we've been causing, creating, funding, arming...terrorism around the world

Last Exodus

catefrances wrote:

dictators and monarchs that are supported by the one country that has too much power to be opposed. so called democratic nations should never support any monarchy.
and yes disenfranchisement through poverty has everything to do with fundamentalism. unfortunately in most cases it is in religion the poor often find solace. and so if you ignore the underlying basic shortcomings of a society, they will turn to what gives them comfort and a voice.
you can not disparage the source of this comfort without offering them a genuine viable alternative.

I cant disagree. I think that holds true anywhere in the world. Generally you don't find alot of people who own homes, and boats and shit blowing themselves up on public buses. The key to the whole shindig is poverty. Plain and simple. If you got dough, ya aint gonna wanna go...

El_Kabong

Last Exodus wrote:

And we all know the Euro controlled AI would never exaggerate a statistic or a fact to serve it's own purposes. These institutions you speak of are made up of human beings who are fallible and subject to bias like any other organization. AI is not god. I don't dispute the Palestinians largely live in terrible conditions. How do I know? I was just there. I went, despite all of my governments warnings not to go, and saw the West Bank myself. I went to Hebron, I went to Bethelhem. Do the Israelis live more comfortably? Absolutely. Why? Simple, an educated democratic people using its limited resources to create a burgeoning economy. If the Israelis can do it for themselves why can't the arabs? And don't feed me this American support bullshit. We did not even support Israel in the 67 War until the very end.


I also went to Egypt and to Jordan, and I can tell you that condition in those countries were just as desparate as the Palestinian. The reality is the average Arab government could give two shits about the Palestinians. They were kicked out Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt in large numbers. The Palestinians, sadly, are used by virtually every Arab and Muslim despot to serve their own purposes. Once it was Nasser, Qaddafi, Amin, Kohmeini, and now Ahmadnijad. It's all the same. The Saudis alone could provide the dough out of probably 1/4 of year's oil profits to build a Palestinian infratructure. But do they? No. Why not? They don't give a shit. That's the truth. So before you get on the Hamas bandwagon do some reading. Because they crap that gets churned out on this board is just that, crap.

So give me some real educated opinions. Not just bullshit opinions that are being fed to you by the radical left.

hamas bandwagon? are you for real?

maybe the checkpoints which are can be closed at a drop of a hat leaving you stranded, a security fence on land not belonging to israel and even the un called illegal, the OCCUPIED territories and the treatment of arabs withing them....and things like that kinda hampers their infrastructure?

who said anything about lebanon and jordan and iran...? why is it called the occupied territories? oh yeah, cos it's not their land!

what would be a good enough source for you? it seems the only ones good enough are ones that agree w/ you as certain ones can be not good enough at one point but reliable when it agrees w/ you

catefrances

Last Exodus wrote:

I cant disagree. I think that holds true anywhere in the world. Generally you don't find alot of people who own homes, and boats and shit blowing themselves up on public buses. The key to the whole shindig is poverty. Plain and simple. If you got dough, ya aint gonna wanna go...

and here's where we part company exodus. i am a socialist. i don't own a house. nor a boat. i don't see the absolute need. but i do ride on public buses. i do not believe that 'having money' is the answer. i prefer to think that people need to be treated decently. they need access to education, shelter and food. people need to be respected for who they are not for what they possess. governments should be for ALL the people not just those with money.

El_Kabong

catefrances wrote:

and here's where we part company exodus. i am a socialist. i don't own a house. nor a boat. i don't see the absolute need. but i do ride on public buses. i do not believe that 'having money' is the answer. i prefer to think that people need to be treated decently. they need access to education, shelter and food. people need to be respected for who they are not for what they possess. governments should be for ALL the people not just those with money.

..

Last Exodus

El_Kabong wrote:

hamas bandwagon? are you for real?

maybe the checkpoints which are can be closed at a drop of a hat leaving you stranded, a security fence on land not belonging to israel and even the un called illegal, the OCCUPIED territories and the treatment of arabs withing them....and things like that kinda hampers their infrastructure?

who said anything about lebanon and jordan and iran...? why is it called the occupied territories? oh yeah, cos it's not their land!

what would be a good enough source for you? it seems the only ones good enough are ones that agree w/ you as certain ones can be not good enough at one point but reliable when it agrees w/ you

Where is this it you refer to? The West Bank and Gaza? Is that the It? Last time I checked half of it was just given back and now serves as a Qassam missile launching base.