Are we all forgetting that they're a band? They all contribute to all the songs, and if it works, it stays in, if not, it's out. To say one or the other is better is just plain stupid. They're a band, live with it.
I also find it amusing all the: "I don't like the music or lyrics from Pearl Jam, but I'm a huge fan." I'll admit I don't like all the songs, but can you really say that you don't like an entire songwriter's catalogue and say you're a fan? I don't think it makes sense. Anyway, my double-pennys.
I find it interesting that no one is commenting on what I brought up about Stone waiting and hanging around for Eddie to call them in. What does this tell us? Eddie is the big contributer and tallest voice in pearl jam, and the one the other members seems to rely on. Wouldn't that make him the best songwriter from an objective point of view? He is constantly writing and producing great material.
Yes, they are a band. But they are also five individuals each bringing different stuff to the table. If I was going to create a band and had every band member in pj sending me his CV, I would consider myself a fool not to hire Eddie!
The others are awsome no doubt. I just feel Eddie has proven himself way above the others in terms of songwriting. I bet you all the guys in pearl jam will agree.
I find it interesting that no one is commenting on what I brought up about Stone waiting and hanging around for Eddie to call them in. What does this tell us? Eddie is the big contributer and tallest voice in pearl jam, and the one the other members seems to rely on. Wouldn't that make him the best songwriter from an objective point of view? He is constantly writing and producing great material.
Yes, they are a band. But they are also five individuals each bringing different stuff to the table. If I was going to create a band and had every band member in pj sending me his CV, I would consider myself a fool not to hire Eddie!
The others are awsome no doubt. I just feel Eddie has proven himself way above the others in terms of songwriting. I bet you all the guys in pearl jam will agree.
You're right about that. Stone has said it in more than one interview. And even Jeff has said that Eddie is a good enough songwriter that he would be happy with albums that had only Eddie Vedder tunes. But I think that the band is stronger for the collaborations. It gives the albums variety and texture. But most of the tunes written by the others without the collaboration of Eddie are not usually very good, or at least not very memorable. Of course, opinions differ, and some may love these tunes.
And if I say that Eddie is the best songwriter, I'm not dissing any of the other members. They are all very talented. It is just an undeniable fact, and I don't think that any of the members would disagree with this.
You're right about that. Stone has said it in more than one interview. And even Jeff has said that Eddie is a good enough songwriter that he would be happy with albums that had only Eddie Vedder tunes. But I think that the band is stronger for the collaborations. It gives the albums variety and texture. But most of the tunes written by the others without the collaboration of Eddie are not usually very good, or at least not very memorable. Of course, opinions differ, and some may love these tunes.
And if I say that Eddie is the best songwriter, I'm not dissing any of the other members. They are all very talented. It is just an undeniable fact, and I don't think that any of the members would disagree with this.
I think many people reject to this because of fear that the band will split. Many here scream and plead that pearl jam must never break up and the slightest rumor has them on their toes. I am one of those too, but right now I find myself appreciating itw album more than S/T. This leaves me wanting more from Ed!
I hope Eddie continues to venture out of pj from time to time to explore his side as a solo artist. I bet he has a lot to offer that is difficult for him to do with pearl jam.
I'll admit I don't like all the songs, but can you really say that you don't like an entire songwriter's catalogue and say you're a fan? I don't think it makes sense. Anyway, my double-pennys.
Wouldn't it depend on the quantity?
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****
Aless
Tell them you love them. Never let the mundane, the unimportant, or worse, the misunderstood, be the final words of parting.
I thought I should back up my original post..Don't get me wrong, I think as live musicians and players, the rest of PJ are top notch. No-one can catch them, but since 2000 I just think Vedder is not only writing 60% of all the material but that 60% is the best stuff...I mean take:
Insiginicance
Greivance
I Am Mine
Parting Ways
Severed Hand
Worldwide Suicide
Man of The Hour
Undone
Can't Keep
Green Disease
Sad
Education
Can anyone deny, that list contains their best songs this decade?
Nope...can't agree with you there. I honestly think Eddie and Stone are best when they collaborate. And Inside Job is my favorite Pearl Jam song of the past decade.....followed closely by Severed Hand. And you left Love Boat Captain off that list by the way. I've never liked the name, but there's no denying that it is a great song and the best off Riot Act!
I think it's pretty much a proven fact that Stone is the top writer in the band when it comes to music.
I agree!
Maybe in your Dreamland.
Vedder got way to much shit, from Stone and Jeff included, trough their career and never got the credits he deserved, from PJ members 1st.
He never bitched about completing other people songs, when was in fact ass-covering because those gentlemen were not able to complete songs. While the other bitched and bitched and bitched while living of it.
Stone and Jeff were trying to get out of PJ for years, Jeff admitted it, for Stone is obvious. But their side projects went nowhere.
What does that tell us?
Eddie is the only name from PJ who is consideret a relevant songwriter (best of generation being used often) outside of the fanbase.
This thread started with a question about songwriting quality, not what would or wouldn't mean Pearl Jam, which is blind childish idealism. They never wrote an album as band jamming it in the studio for crying out loud!
I wouldn't be defending Eddie if he wasn't the one who worked the hardest on every PJ album since Vs. (which we know from various interviews to the other guys no less!) and was never properly credited and he should and have been and deserves to be.
I knew who I was before other people started telling me who I was. J.Joplin
Unfortunatley when pearl jam try different stuff (Binaural, RA) people moan....
Bullshit. People moan because the music is not good. Do you equate those albums to being "different"? How are they different? They are still rock, just subpar rock. That music is not experimental or different, it is just a collection of bad songs. How many times do you have to read interviews by the band members saying that Avocado is one of their best works and that the last two albums before it weren't as good as the rest of their catalog?
The band thinks Riot Act and Binaural are duds. Plain and simple. Why don't they play Get Right at live shows? That's right, it sucks.
Bullshit. People moan because the music is not good. Do you equate those albums to being "different"? How are they different? They are still rock, just subpar rock. That music is not experimental or different, it is just a collection of bad songs. How many times do you have to read interviews by the band members saying that Avocado is one of their best works and that the last two albums before it weren't as good as the rest of their catalog?
The band thinks Riot Act and Binaural are duds. Plain and simple. Why don't they play Get Right at live shows? That's right, it sucks.
The same band was saying Riot Act was the best thing they ever did.
People moan about every album/song they ever recorded. It's just different people but still. If the band listened to everyone about what not to play they would just stay there in silence.
I knew who I was before other people started telling me who I was. J.Joplin
I disagree. Of course, we all know that greatness and decency cannot be proven in a lab - they are purely subjective. And your musical background as a listener will certainly inform your opinions and assessments of all the music you listen to.
I think that they are fine songwriters in their own right. Each of them are a different vibe though. Definitely all products of their musical backgrounds. Mike is a straight-up 70's-early80's kinda dude. Stone is the funk guy. Jeff is the folksy metal head. Matt is a recovering Jazz jukie. Ed is much more dramatic - given his love for the Who and the Boss.
I'm sorry, but I don't see how the intro to Inside Job is "Marked by an unwarranted claim to importance or distinction" or "intended to impress others" - that is to say pretentious. If anything, it sets a mood for the song. It give the song a place to go. It's stepping outside of the box and doing the kind of things classical composers did - creates a movement. It provides atmosphere and dynamics - something, by and large, missing from most modern music.
<insert trite to each his own statement>
I've never had a quarrell with Jeff's songwriting. Pilate and Low Light are two songs that sucked me into Yield the hardest. Nothing As It Seems made me feel very excited. And I know I'm in the minority, but I fucking love Gods' Dice. Other Side nearly moves me to tears each time I hear it.
I think all the guys can be considered complete and elaborate songwriters, but for different reasons.
Stone:
All Those Yesterdays and the song Bayleaf, I think, are both good examples of how complete Stone is as a songwriter. He wove into those songs some very nicely placed dynamic shifts, and he provided some very poetic lyrics for both.
Jeff:
Nothing As It Seems and Resonate from Three Fish's The Quiet Table album are good examples of how Jeff can come up with a complete song. What strikes me the most about Jeff's writing is how much of it is mellow, given his love of Slayer and Mastodon.
Mike:
See my defense of Inside Job above for the musical aspect of the song. Lyrically, I think Mike did a fine job. It's a very personal subject for him, and it took courage to put his balls on the line the way he did. Then again, I could also point to Distress from the Rockfords album. Another personal journey from Mike, with fantastic music and emotionally naked lyrics.
Since the drum stool has historically been a revolving door position, I'm going to take any pains to stick up for Dave A's, Jack's, or Matt's contributions - though I will state that I have never had a problem with Get Right, and I think In The Moonlight shows what Matt is capable of on the musical and lyrical front.
Overall, I don't agree that Eddie is the absolute best songwriter in he group. But if you were arguing lyric writing, then I'd agree. Eddie is best lyricist in the band.
As far as riff writing goes, and whether or not it constitutes song writing, I guess I've been doing it wrong all these years. I'm a songwriter myself, and I've written many a tune that was musically contructed of riffs. So, uh, actually, writing a riff is writing the music of a song in quite a few cases. Even Flow, In Hiding, Jeremy, Alive, Breath, Glorified G, Daughter - all riff-based on the musical level, to name a few. To be fair, though, there are situations in any band's catalogue where the riffs were added after the fact. I have done this in my band. It's really a two way street. But as Alessiana pointed out, riffs do not make the entire song. It's about what happens when all 5 (or 6 if Boom is involved) have finished putting their stamp on the song.
I saw in this thread that Ed allegedly wrote the melody and lyrics for Life Wasted before Stone wrote the music. I could see the lyrics existing before the music, but it's not characteristic of any songwriter or musician to be able to take a pre-existing melody from someone else and write music around it. I would think it more accurate that Stone wrote the music, and Ed just happened to have something in his notebook that worked. Just my speculation though. As far as the accuracy of their credits is concerned, I have always felt that they are really only referring to who wrote the actual core of the song (that is basic music and/or lyrics). Writing a complimentary guitar part doesn't necessarily warrant a co-writing credit. And if another guy presents another idea that influences the arrangment, then fantastic.
The beauty of this band, or many other bands for that matter, is the way everyone else in the group finds a way to let you know they played on the song. In the case of a song like Porch - Ed baked the cake, but Dave K, Jeff, Mike and Stone added the icing and the little candy bits. It's Ed's cake, but the rest of the guys made it delicious. The same idea can be applied to Inside Job, Fatal, Help Help, and In The Moonlight.
It's been stated in this thread, numerous times already, but I'm going to state it again - With Pearl Jam, the Whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
Besides, the quote below sums up the truth if Ed took full creative control:
You can't measure taste in a lab but you can quality.
You can analyze structures, melodies, arrangements in term of subtleties that are there for a reason in contrast with wankery(big chords big solos pointless screaming hitting notes no-one with testicles should be allowed to etc.).
There are specific songwriting skills that are absolutely objective. You can't argue composers like Beethoven, Mozart, Vivaldi etc. are absolutely great (I'm not comparing Vedder with them btw except maybe that he has the same hair cut as Beethoven). They just are, period. If a guy can bring in a studio a completed RVM and Corduroy and I Am Mine etc. he kicked ass, period.
Eddie can DO more as a songwriter and do it better than any other in PJ. If people don't notice the complexity of pieces doesn't mean it's subjective but it means people are superficial which is completely fine since it's just music.
People don't want to see that many of the credits for music mean just a simple riff and Eddie did everything else. It's in interviews out there.
Taste is a completely different matter and absolutely subjective.
Objectivity comes from the fact that Eddie has high profile songwriting jobs as a songwriter.
If we would argue songwriting is completely subjective we would have to agree the current Billboard top 10 is the top songwriting of today and Pearl Jam is below average considering their recent sales. But we don't, do we?
That's the criteria some of you are trying to sell.
If Stone and Jeff would have been in charge they would have became the wanna be G'n'R.
My "problem" with this thread is that people started shitting on the guy who opened it because many people here need to see PJ as a hippy community and the 10C as their biggest enemy. Have you forgot how many time they were splitting up (including a few months ago because someone didn't appreciate Ed did ITW alone). If Eddie Vedder was somebody else he would have left a long time ago. Similar things happened within rock bands many many times.
I could see the lyrics existing before the music, but it's not characteristic of any songwriter or musician to be able to take a pre-existing melody from someone else and write music around it.
This is exactly why Eddie is the best in the band. He can. What often happens in Pearl Jam is that someone brings in a riff and does the structure and bridge.
It give the song a place to go. It's stepping outside of the box and doing the kind of things classical composers did - creates a movement. It provides atmosphere and dynamics - something, by and large, missing from most modern music.
Exactly the problem. It sets a place to go and never reaches it. Eddie is co-credited for the music on Inside Job.
I knew who I was before other people started telling me who I was. J.Joplin
Bullshit. People moan because the music is not good. Do you equate those albums to being "different"? How are they different? They are still rock, just subpar rock. That music is not experimental or different, it is just a collection of bad songs. How many times do you have to read interviews by the band members saying that Avocado is one of their best works and that the last two albums before it weren't as good as the rest of their catalog?
I just don't see how they're bad songs, I'm sorry, I think Sleight of Hand is superb amd Gods Dice.....I just find Avocado very generic compared to Binaural and Riot Act, I find something new everytime i listen to those two records, they grew on me, there's things to discover.....Avocado bored me very quickly, there doesn't seem any depth to it, JUST MY OPINION, im not saying there isn't depth but it is easily my least favourite record of theirs.....
And to be honest I remember Pearl Jam bigging up RA big time, but thats irrelevent.....The Stones hated Exile on Main Street.....
'The more I studied religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself.' - Sir Richard Francis Burton
I don't see how Inside Job goes nowhere. I think it does ultimately reach a destination. But I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm just adding my own log to the fire.
And the quality of art is not provable in a lab, the quality of art is measured by the individual experiencing it. It's always a matter of opinion.
- Justin
You think the Slayer tour is out, or what?
"Finally! I get to save the earth with deadly lasers instead of deadly slide shows." -- Al Gore.
I don't see how Inside Job goes nowhere. I think it does ultimately reach a destination. But I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm just adding my own log to the fire.
And the quality of art is not provable in a lab, the quality of art is measured by the individual experiencing it. It's always a matter of opinion.
That's still taste not quality. And that's ok.
I knew who I was before other people started telling me who I was. J.Joplin
I don't think so, but since I'm guitarist, not a barber, I'm not going to split hairs with you. If it comes down to analysis of the chord structures and melodies, that pretty much sucks all life out of the music. Sometimes things that sound good aren't technically correct. Like playing a Cadd9 when the other guitarist plays a straight Cmaj. Not technically correct, but it sounds pretty damn good.
Honestly, I don't give a flying fuck what chord inversion was played by whichever guitarist. Just so long as it makes me feel.
Maybe I'm just a dumb motherfucker, but I listen to music because it moves me, not because the artist used the right intervals and chord sequences. It just so happens that I'm equally moved by the writing of Stone, Jeff, Mike, Jack, Matt and even the two Daves, as I am by Ed. In my eyes and ears they're musical equals. I will concede on the lyric skills though. Ed has a knack for lyrics that the other guys are still learning.
Of course the beauty of opinions is that no one is wrong.
Justin
- Justin
You think the Slayer tour is out, or what?
"Finally! I get to save the earth with deadly lasers instead of deadly slide shows." -- Al Gore.
Does not the SUM of a set of parts = its WHOLE and therefore adding the parts constitute the whole? The sum of the parts does equal the whole. I've used the cliché myself but it's ridiculous. ACK!
I just had to say that because it irritates the frack out of me.
Anyway, anyone who can walk into a room with Man Of The Hour in a day is a flipping stone cold genius and Vedder does this all the damn time. This is SOP. The argument that the others are the same as Eddie or that he just writes better words is beyond tenuous - it's flimsy. He's a musical genius, not just a poet. And I think it's arguable that even with as great a poet as he can be, he writes greater music on a consistent basis than he does words. Man Of The Hour is a perfect example of this. There are lines that work because of the music. They are formed to fit the meter and musical phrasing, but as poetry they don't work as well because they are too obscure. However, the musical ideas and song structure are a 100% hard sell of the song's meaning. Man Of the Hour ends up a masterpiece. This genius is another reason why he's so brilliant at interpreting other people's work. He knows how to use his voice to improve their work and how to arrange instruments and accompanying musical lines to improve a song's effectiveness. This comes from his musical genius, not his ability with words.
There's been a collective fantasy in operation for years in fandom regarding how they work on each others' songs, particularly those with Vedder music credits. That's cool, as long as it doesn't obscure the truth from the general public, but in this case, that's exactly what's happened.
Vedder music credits are exactly that, Vedder music credits, and people shouldn't be confused about this issue. In Ed's case, this means he wrote every note for *all parts* in almost all songs. This makes sense when you hear his music because its characteristics are unlike any others. Some people are pissed off about this. Those people are idiots (sorry but true). This isn't a matter of someone being selfish, this a matter of art. What a person has in their head is their creation. And this doesn't mean they don't collaborate well with others or that they stifle them with overbearing leadership. Anyone who would sing some of their weaker material with Vedder's level of conviction to sell the song, couldn't be selfish. He seems the opposite in that he pulled back and let others write their own songs. Vedder writing his own parts means that what he hears, his musical vision for his own creation, is vital.
That's part of being a great artist.
What I find most disturbing as a result of this mass fantasy, is the assumption in the broader press that Eddie was a "wordsmith" - hurl, I hate that term - and nothing more, with Into The Wild being his great musical breakout.
::blinks::
Here's this great genius and people have been flipping clueless for 17 years.
How people perceive Radiohead (all hail to Yorke - what Greenwoods?) and Pearl Jam (Eddie - great front man but it's really the other guys) is a story of ... complete ... wrongness. Only now is it beginning to be corrected for both bands but good lord, why did it take so damn long?
Of course Vedder shouldn't write all the music. It would be a huge loss of fantastic musical ideas if he did so. He obviously knows this or they'd have either broken up &/or we wouldn't see collaborations and songs by others. But we do and THANK GOD because these are truly great songs.
I don't think we have to worry about any of this. Really, I don't. But in trying not to worry about this, we shouldn't ignore certain truths.
And I wish the press would get more of a clue.
ps. Again, I think everyone in the band is wonderful. In fact, I don't know them but I love them and I want them to work together. At the same time I think certain truths are truths and have been obvious to other musicians for years (I wanna make a band with Eddie!!! says who knows many other musicians). It's just only now the fanbase and press are catching up so we're having this conversation... etc.
.
****
Aless
Tell them you love them. Never let the mundane, the unimportant, or worse, the misunderstood, be the final words of parting.
Does not the SUM of a set of parts = its WHOLE and therefore adding the parts constitute the whole? The sum of the parts does equal the whole. I've used the cliché myself but it's ridiculous. ACK!
I just had to say that because it irritates the frack out of me.
Anyway, anyone who can walk into a room with Man Of The Hour in a day is a flipping stone cold genius and Vedder does this all the damn time. This is SOP. The argument that the others are the same as Eddie or that he just writes better words is beyond tenuous - it's flimsy. He's a musical genius, not just a poet. And I think it's arguable that even with as great a poet as he can be, he writes greater music on a consistent basis than he does words. Man Of The Hour is a perfect example of this. There are lines that work because of the music. They are formed to fit the meter and musical phrasing, but as poetry they don't work as well because they are too obscure. However, the musical ideas and song structure are a 100% hard sell of the song's meaning. Man Of the Hour ends up a masterpiece. This genius is another reason why he's so brilliant at interpreting other people's work. He knows how to use his voice to improve their work and how to arrange instruments and accompanying musical lines to improve a song's effectiveness. This comes from his musical genius, not his ability with words.
snippity
.
I never said Ed wasn't a genius. Though I did state he's the best lyricist of the bunch (I'm really hoping I didn't imply he's a poet - not my intention). I just expressed my opinion that I view them as equals in the realm of songwriting. I think they're all excellent songwriters in their own way.
That doesn't make me right. It's just how I feel. I'm not trying to take away from the man either. He's written some stellar material, and he's a classy musician. Ed Vedder is a super-freak when he writes songs. The only thing I'm reacting to is the assertion that Eddie is the ONLY decent songwriter in the band.
P.S. Johnny Greenwood is a bad ass motherfucker. Always has been.
- Justin
You think the Slayer tour is out, or what?
"Finally! I get to save the earth with deadly lasers instead of deadly slide shows." -- Al Gore.
I never said Ed wasn't a genius. Though I did state he's the best lyricist of the bunch (I'm really hoping I didn't imply he's a poet - not my intention). I just expressed my opinion that I view them as equals in the realm of songwriting. I think they're all excellent songwriters in their own way.
That doesn't make me right. It's just how I feel. I'm not trying to take away from the man either. He's written some stellar material, and he's a classy musician. Ed Vedder is a super-freak when he writes songs. The only thing I'm reacting to is the assertion that Eddie is the ONLY decent songwriter in the band.
P.S. Johnny Greenwood is a bad ass motherfucker. Always has been.
lol
he is a poet, we just don't get to see it necessarily. this is a fact. it doesn't mean you have to like the few pieces we've seen but it is what it is. i'm a poet too. i may suck, but that doesn't mean i'm not what i say i am.
eddie vedder is a poet. what is the problem with saying something like that? i don't understand why you wouldn't even want to make the implication when it is so clearly evident. dude, this is a safe bet.
a few years ago, people used to come at me for saying vedder was a musical genius. wtf? again, so clearly true. nothing like a few years to make it obvious.
i just do not understand what it is about pj fans that as a general thing, we cannot make statements regarding this man that would be very clearly obvious if we were outside fandom. i don't believe anyone outside fandom would argue he wasn't a poet. it's preposterous.
i think we have some bizarre disease as a collective when it comes to vedder. i don't know what it is but it exists. there's also a fear of being perceived as worshipful and the greatest insult (which i agree is highly insulting) is to be accused of worship. this is stupid. it's soooooo flipping stupid, i don't know what to say about it other than that it's stupid.
REGARDLESS, i understand other the assertion you are making. it makes sense. i won't argue it. i understand the concept of taste. for myself, i don't have the same reaction to all our yesterdays as i do to some of vedder's ballads but it's all good.
i don't begrudge anyone their art. who the fuck am i to do that? i suck.
anyway, i think pj should adopt the 25 songs per album format. what do you think?
; )
ps. i think so too, but like much of the population, i didn't understand that band. one thing i did not do was jump to any conclusions. i asked questions instead. i alos have questions about tool. aside from lyrics and melody, who does what in that band, anyone know?
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****
Aless
Tell them you love them. Never let the mundane, the unimportant, or worse, the misunderstood, be the final words of parting.
he is a poet, we just don't get to see it necessarily. this is a fact. it doesn't mean you have to like the few pieces we've seen but it is what it is. i'm a poet too. i may suck, but that doesn't mean i'm not what i say i am.
eddie vedder is a poet. what is the problem with saying something like that? i don't understand why you wouldn't even want to make the implication when it is so clearly evident. dude, this is a safe bet.
Ok, I took your poet statement a couple posts earlier the wrong way (and I left out the word "just" in my parenthesis as in I didn't mean to imply he's just a poet - I type like an amputee).
I'd be a fool to deny that his writing has a poetic quality to it, but I didn't want to make it seem like that's all he is - does that make sense? I've written a bit of poetry myself, and once got published in my college's quarterly literary journal. But I also write lyrics too. And I know there is a distinction between the two. But that's a different discussion for another time altogether. In the words of the great Phil Collins - "It must be some misunderstanding".
I think I understand what you mean about the extreme appreciation of Ed's talents (don't call it worship ). I've been looked at like a special needs kid for enjoying the band and their output, as well as appreciating Ed as an individual. People have also questioned my sexuality for the high regard in which I hold Mr. Gossard due to his guitar playing (and its influence on me as a guitarist). I just try to shake it off and be comfortable in the knowledge that I am a fan of one of the greatest bands ever.
25 songs an album? Fuck it - make it 30.
PS - with Tool, Maynard writes the words and the other three collectively write the music. Or so they would have us believe from their interviews in Guitar World.
- Justin
You think the Slayer tour is out, or what?
"Finally! I get to save the earth with deadly lasers instead of deadly slide shows." -- Al Gore.
I should also mention that the Into the Wild Soundtrack makes me hope that Ed releases another solo record. Though I also hope to see another solo offering from Stone.
- Justin
You think the Slayer tour is out, or what?
"Finally! I get to save the earth with deadly lasers instead of deadly slide shows." -- Al Gore.
Comments
I find it interesting that no one is commenting on what I brought up about Stone waiting and hanging around for Eddie to call them in. What does this tell us? Eddie is the big contributer and tallest voice in pearl jam, and the one the other members seems to rely on. Wouldn't that make him the best songwriter from an objective point of view? He is constantly writing and producing great material.
Yes, they are a band. But they are also five individuals each bringing different stuff to the table. If I was going to create a band and had every band member in pj sending me his CV, I would consider myself a fool not to hire Eddie!
The others are awsome no doubt. I just feel Eddie has proven himself way above the others in terms of songwriting. I bet you all the guys in pearl jam will agree.
And if I say that Eddie is the best songwriter, I'm not dissing any of the other members. They are all very talented. It is just an undeniable fact, and I don't think that any of the members would disagree with this.
I think many people reject to this because of fear that the band will split. Many here scream and plead that pearl jam must never break up and the slightest rumor has them on their toes. I am one of those too, but right now I find myself appreciating itw album more than S/T. This leaves me wanting more from Ed!
I hope Eddie continues to venture out of pj from time to time to explore his side as a solo artist. I bet he has a lot to offer that is difficult for him to do with pearl jam.
That would be amazing if it was 80 - 90% Eddie's words and music in my opinion
Wouldn't it depend on the quantity?
.
Aless
Tell them you love them. Never let the mundane, the unimportant, or worse, the misunderstood, be the final words of parting.
Tell them.
I see people on here who admit to liking only one or two songs. What's the point of coming here? That's what I'm asking.
Nope...can't agree with you there. I honestly think Eddie and Stone are best when they collaborate. And Inside Job is my favorite Pearl Jam song of the past decade.....followed closely by Severed Hand. And you left Love Boat Captain off that list by the way. I've never liked the name, but there's no denying that it is a great song and the best off Riot Act!
Then it wouldn't be Pearl Jam, would it?
~www.myspace.com/laurababy0105~
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Vedder got way to much shit, from Stone and Jeff included, trough their career and never got the credits he deserved, from PJ members 1st.
He never bitched about completing other people songs, when was in fact ass-covering because those gentlemen were not able to complete songs. While the other bitched and bitched and bitched while living of it.
Stone and Jeff were trying to get out of PJ for years, Jeff admitted it, for Stone is obvious. But their side projects went nowhere.
What does that tell us?
Eddie is the only name from PJ who is consideret a relevant songwriter (best of generation being used often) outside of the fanbase.
This thread started with a question about songwriting quality, not what would or wouldn't mean Pearl Jam, which is blind childish idealism. They never wrote an album as band jamming it in the studio for crying out loud!
I wouldn't be defending Eddie if he wasn't the one who worked the hardest on every PJ album since Vs. (which we know from various interviews to the other guys no less!) and was never properly credited and he should and have been and deserves to be.
Bullshit. People moan because the music is not good. Do you equate those albums to being "different"? How are they different? They are still rock, just subpar rock. That music is not experimental or different, it is just a collection of bad songs. How many times do you have to read interviews by the band members saying that Avocado is one of their best works and that the last two albums before it weren't as good as the rest of their catalog?
The band thinks Riot Act and Binaural are duds. Plain and simple. Why don't they play Get Right at live shows? That's right, it sucks.
People moan about every album/song they ever recorded. It's just different people but still. If the band listened to everyone about what not to play they would just stay there in silence.
I think that they are fine songwriters in their own right. Each of them are a different vibe though. Definitely all products of their musical backgrounds. Mike is a straight-up 70's-early80's kinda dude. Stone is the funk guy. Jeff is the folksy metal head. Matt is a recovering Jazz jukie. Ed is much more dramatic - given his love for the Who and the Boss.
I'm sorry, but I don't see how the intro to Inside Job is "Marked by an unwarranted claim to importance or distinction" or "intended to impress others" - that is to say pretentious. If anything, it sets a mood for the song. It give the song a place to go. It's stepping outside of the box and doing the kind of things classical composers did - creates a movement. It provides atmosphere and dynamics - something, by and large, missing from most modern music.
<insert trite to each his own statement>
I've never had a quarrell with Jeff's songwriting. Pilate and Low Light are two songs that sucked me into Yield the hardest. Nothing As It Seems made me feel very excited. And I know I'm in the minority, but I fucking love Gods' Dice. Other Side nearly moves me to tears each time I hear it.
I think all the guys can be considered complete and elaborate songwriters, but for different reasons.
Stone:
All Those Yesterdays and the song Bayleaf, I think, are both good examples of how complete Stone is as a songwriter. He wove into those songs some very nicely placed dynamic shifts, and he provided some very poetic lyrics for both.
Jeff:
Nothing As It Seems and Resonate from Three Fish's The Quiet Table album are good examples of how Jeff can come up with a complete song. What strikes me the most about Jeff's writing is how much of it is mellow, given his love of Slayer and Mastodon.
Mike:
See my defense of Inside Job above for the musical aspect of the song. Lyrically, I think Mike did a fine job. It's a very personal subject for him, and it took courage to put his balls on the line the way he did. Then again, I could also point to Distress from the Rockfords album. Another personal journey from Mike, with fantastic music and emotionally naked lyrics.
Since the drum stool has historically been a revolving door position, I'm going to take any pains to stick up for Dave A's, Jack's, or Matt's contributions - though I will state that I have never had a problem with Get Right, and I think In The Moonlight shows what Matt is capable of on the musical and lyrical front.
Overall, I don't agree that Eddie is the absolute best songwriter in he group. But if you were arguing lyric writing, then I'd agree. Eddie is best lyricist in the band.
As far as riff writing goes, and whether or not it constitutes song writing, I guess I've been doing it wrong all these years. I'm a songwriter myself, and I've written many a tune that was musically contructed of riffs. So, uh, actually, writing a riff is writing the music of a song in quite a few cases. Even Flow, In Hiding, Jeremy, Alive, Breath, Glorified G, Daughter - all riff-based on the musical level, to name a few. To be fair, though, there are situations in any band's catalogue where the riffs were added after the fact. I have done this in my band. It's really a two way street. But as Alessiana pointed out, riffs do not make the entire song. It's about what happens when all 5 (or 6 if Boom is involved) have finished putting their stamp on the song.
I saw in this thread that Ed allegedly wrote the melody and lyrics for Life Wasted before Stone wrote the music. I could see the lyrics existing before the music, but it's not characteristic of any songwriter or musician to be able to take a pre-existing melody from someone else and write music around it. I would think it more accurate that Stone wrote the music, and Ed just happened to have something in his notebook that worked. Just my speculation though. As far as the accuracy of their credits is concerned, I have always felt that they are really only referring to who wrote the actual core of the song (that is basic music and/or lyrics). Writing a complimentary guitar part doesn't necessarily warrant a co-writing credit. And if another guy presents another idea that influences the arrangment, then fantastic.
The beauty of this band, or many other bands for that matter, is the way everyone else in the group finds a way to let you know they played on the song. In the case of a song like Porch - Ed baked the cake, but Dave K, Jeff, Mike and Stone added the icing and the little candy bits. It's Ed's cake, but the rest of the guys made it delicious. The same idea can be applied to Inside Job, Fatal, Help Help, and In The Moonlight.
It's been stated in this thread, numerous times already, but I'm going to state it again - With Pearl Jam, the Whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
Besides, the quote below sums up the truth if Ed took full creative control:
There's truth in that statement.
__________________
Justin
You think the Slayer tour is out, or what?
"Finally! I get to save the earth with deadly lasers instead of deadly slide shows." -- Al Gore.
You can analyze structures, melodies, arrangements in term of subtleties that are there for a reason in contrast with wankery(big chords big solos pointless screaming hitting notes no-one with testicles should be allowed to etc.).
There are specific songwriting skills that are absolutely objective. You can't argue composers like Beethoven, Mozart, Vivaldi etc. are absolutely great (I'm not comparing Vedder with them btw except maybe that he has the same hair cut as Beethoven). They just are, period. If a guy can bring in a studio a completed RVM and Corduroy and I Am Mine etc. he kicked ass, period.
Eddie can DO more as a songwriter and do it better than any other in PJ. If people don't notice the complexity of pieces doesn't mean it's subjective but it means people are superficial which is completely fine since it's just music.
People don't want to see that many of the credits for music mean just a simple riff and Eddie did everything else. It's in interviews out there.
Taste is a completely different matter and absolutely subjective.
Objectivity comes from the fact that Eddie has high profile songwriting jobs as a songwriter.
If we would argue songwriting is completely subjective we would have to agree the current Billboard top 10 is the top songwriting of today and Pearl Jam is below average considering their recent sales. But we don't, do we?
That's the criteria some of you are trying to sell.
If Stone and Jeff would have been in charge they would have became the wanna be G'n'R.
My "problem" with this thread is that people started shitting on the guy who opened it because many people here need to see PJ as a hippy community and the 10C as their biggest enemy. Have you forgot how many time they were splitting up (including a few months ago because someone didn't appreciate Ed did ITW alone). If Eddie Vedder was somebody else he would have left a long time ago. Similar things happened within rock bands many many times.
This is exactly why Eddie is the best in the band. He can. What often happens in Pearl Jam is that someone brings in a riff and does the structure and bridge.
Exactly the problem. It sets a place to go and never reaches it. Eddie is co-credited for the music on Inside Job.
I agree 100%!!!
I just don't see how they're bad songs, I'm sorry, I think Sleight of Hand is superb amd Gods Dice.....I just find Avocado very generic compared to Binaural and Riot Act, I find something new everytime i listen to those two records, they grew on me, there's things to discover.....Avocado bored me very quickly, there doesn't seem any depth to it, JUST MY OPINION, im not saying there isn't depth but it is easily my least favourite record of theirs.....
And to be honest I remember Pearl Jam bigging up RA big time, but thats irrelevent.....The Stones hated Exile on Main Street.....
And the quality of art is not provable in a lab, the quality of art is measured by the individual experiencing it. It's always a matter of opinion.
You think the Slayer tour is out, or what?
"Finally! I get to save the earth with deadly lasers instead of deadly slide shows." -- Al Gore.
I don't think so, but since I'm guitarist, not a barber, I'm not going to split hairs with you. If it comes down to analysis of the chord structures and melodies, that pretty much sucks all life out of the music. Sometimes things that sound good aren't technically correct. Like playing a Cadd9 when the other guitarist plays a straight Cmaj. Not technically correct, but it sounds pretty damn good.
Honestly, I don't give a flying fuck what chord inversion was played by whichever guitarist. Just so long as it makes me feel.
Maybe I'm just a dumb motherfucker, but I listen to music because it moves me, not because the artist used the right intervals and chord sequences. It just so happens that I'm equally moved by the writing of Stone, Jeff, Mike, Jack, Matt and even the two Daves, as I am by Ed. In my eyes and ears they're musical equals. I will concede on the lyric skills though. Ed has a knack for lyrics that the other guys are still learning.
Of course the beauty of opinions is that no one is wrong.
Justin
You think the Slayer tour is out, or what?
"Finally! I get to save the earth with deadly lasers instead of deadly slide shows." -- Al Gore.
Does not the SUM of a set of parts = its WHOLE and therefore adding the parts constitute the whole? The sum of the parts does equal the whole. I've used the cliché myself but it's ridiculous. ACK!
I just had to say that because it irritates the frack out of me.
Anyway, anyone who can walk into a room with Man Of The Hour in a day is a flipping stone cold genius and Vedder does this all the damn time. This is SOP. The argument that the others are the same as Eddie or that he just writes better words is beyond tenuous - it's flimsy. He's a musical genius, not just a poet. And I think it's arguable that even with as great a poet as he can be, he writes greater music on a consistent basis than he does words. Man Of The Hour is a perfect example of this. There are lines that work because of the music. They are formed to fit the meter and musical phrasing, but as poetry they don't work as well because they are too obscure. However, the musical ideas and song structure are a 100% hard sell of the song's meaning. Man Of the Hour ends up a masterpiece. This genius is another reason why he's so brilliant at interpreting other people's work. He knows how to use his voice to improve their work and how to arrange instruments and accompanying musical lines to improve a song's effectiveness. This comes from his musical genius, not his ability with words.
There's been a collective fantasy in operation for years in fandom regarding how they work on each others' songs, particularly those with Vedder music credits. That's cool, as long as it doesn't obscure the truth from the general public, but in this case, that's exactly what's happened.
Vedder music credits are exactly that, Vedder music credits, and people shouldn't be confused about this issue. In Ed's case, this means he wrote every note for *all parts* in almost all songs. This makes sense when you hear his music because its characteristics are unlike any others. Some people are pissed off about this. Those people are idiots (sorry but true). This isn't a matter of someone being selfish, this a matter of art. What a person has in their head is their creation. And this doesn't mean they don't collaborate well with others or that they stifle them with overbearing leadership. Anyone who would sing some of their weaker material with Vedder's level of conviction to sell the song, couldn't be selfish. He seems the opposite in that he pulled back and let others write their own songs. Vedder writing his own parts means that what he hears, his musical vision for his own creation, is vital.
That's part of being a great artist.
What I find most disturbing as a result of this mass fantasy, is the assumption in the broader press that Eddie was a "wordsmith" - hurl, I hate that term - and nothing more, with Into The Wild being his great musical breakout.
::blinks::
Here's this great genius and people have been flipping clueless for 17 years.
How people perceive Radiohead (all hail to Yorke - what Greenwoods?) and Pearl Jam (Eddie - great front man but it's really the other guys) is a story of ... complete ... wrongness. Only now is it beginning to be corrected for both bands but good lord, why did it take so damn long?
Of course Vedder shouldn't write all the music. It would be a huge loss of fantastic musical ideas if he did so. He obviously knows this or they'd have either broken up &/or we wouldn't see collaborations and songs by others. But we do and THANK GOD because these are truly great songs.
I don't think we have to worry about any of this. Really, I don't. But in trying not to worry about this, we shouldn't ignore certain truths.
And I wish the press would get more of a clue.
ps. Again, I think everyone in the band is wonderful. In fact, I don't know them but I love them and I want them to work together. At the same time I think certain truths are truths and have been obvious to other musicians for years (I wanna make a band with Eddie!!! says who knows many other musicians). It's just only now the fanbase and press are catching up so we're having this conversation... etc.
.
Aless
Tell them you love them. Never let the mundane, the unimportant, or worse, the misunderstood, be the final words of parting.
Tell them.
I never said Ed wasn't a genius. Though I did state he's the best lyricist of the bunch (I'm really hoping I didn't imply he's a poet - not my intention). I just expressed my opinion that I view them as equals in the realm of songwriting. I think they're all excellent songwriters in their own way.
That doesn't make me right. It's just how I feel. I'm not trying to take away from the man either. He's written some stellar material, and he's a classy musician. Ed Vedder is a super-freak when he writes songs. The only thing I'm reacting to is the assertion that Eddie is the ONLY decent songwriter in the band.
P.S. Johnny Greenwood is a bad ass motherfucker. Always has been.
You think the Slayer tour is out, or what?
"Finally! I get to save the earth with deadly lasers instead of deadly slide shows." -- Al Gore.
lol
he is a poet, we just don't get to see it necessarily. this is a fact. it doesn't mean you have to like the few pieces we've seen but it is what it is. i'm a poet too. i may suck, but that doesn't mean i'm not what i say i am.
eddie vedder is a poet. what is the problem with saying something like that? i don't understand why you wouldn't even want to make the implication when it is so clearly evident. dude, this is a safe bet.
a few years ago, people used to come at me for saying vedder was a musical genius. wtf? again, so clearly true. nothing like a few years to make it obvious.
i just do not understand what it is about pj fans that as a general thing, we cannot make statements regarding this man that would be very clearly obvious if we were outside fandom. i don't believe anyone outside fandom would argue he wasn't a poet. it's preposterous.
i think we have some bizarre disease as a collective when it comes to vedder. i don't know what it is but it exists. there's also a fear of being perceived as worshipful and the greatest insult (which i agree is highly insulting) is to be accused of worship. this is stupid. it's soooooo flipping stupid, i don't know what to say about it other than that it's stupid.
REGARDLESS, i understand other the assertion you are making. it makes sense. i won't argue it. i understand the concept of taste. for myself, i don't have the same reaction to all our yesterdays as i do to some of vedder's ballads but it's all good.
i don't begrudge anyone their art. who the fuck am i to do that? i suck.
anyway, i think pj should adopt the 25 songs per album format. what do you think?
; )
ps. i think so too, but like much of the population, i didn't understand that band. one thing i did not do was jump to any conclusions. i asked questions instead. i alos have questions about tool. aside from lyrics and melody, who does what in that band, anyone know?
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Aless
Tell them you love them. Never let the mundane, the unimportant, or worse, the misunderstood, be the final words of parting.
Tell them.
Ok, I took your poet statement a couple posts earlier the wrong way (and I left out the word "just" in my parenthesis as in I didn't mean to imply he's just a poet - I type like an amputee).
I'd be a fool to deny that his writing has a poetic quality to it, but I didn't want to make it seem like that's all he is - does that make sense? I've written a bit of poetry myself, and once got published in my college's quarterly literary journal. But I also write lyrics too. And I know there is a distinction between the two. But that's a different discussion for another time altogether. In the words of the great Phil Collins - "It must be some misunderstanding".
I think I understand what you mean about the extreme appreciation of Ed's talents (don't call it worship
25 songs an album? Fuck it - make it 30.
PS - with Tool, Maynard writes the words and the other three collectively write the music. Or so they would have us believe from their interviews in Guitar World.
You think the Slayer tour is out, or what?
"Finally! I get to save the earth with deadly lasers instead of deadly slide shows." -- Al Gore.
You think the Slayer tour is out, or what?
"Finally! I get to save the earth with deadly lasers instead of deadly slide shows." -- Al Gore.