Stupid Question for Singers

SLH916

Are there exercises and techniques that singers use to keep from ruining their voices when they sing really rough, screaming vocals (ANIMAL, LUKIN) and also play long shows (Pearl Jam, Bruce)?

Does anyone know how Eddie has been able to keep doing this for so many years?

FinsburyParkCarrots

Try to sing more from the diaphragm (no jokes, please), than the throat. You might be able to throw in a couple of shouty numbers here and there, then, without ruining your voice.

xtremehardy388

Yeah, sing from 'the gut'. You'll get a better sound too. Also, a sppon full of honey or sugar is really good for coating the voice.

Pearl Jam and toast

More input please. I've been screaming Pixies songs and growling Nick Cave songs lately praticing and I'm a bit worried about this... I think I've lost some range since (not for good, but you know..)

FinsburyParkCarrots

Here's a question, then. Would you rather sing a high note than scream it? Well, if you'd rather sing, but still give it some whoomph, stand up when you're singing, and look upwards, letting the air go through your body upwards. If you still want the note to sound rocky, practice shaping that air with your mouth as it comes out. Don't use the throat as much. You won't end up sounding plastic like Robbie Williams if you do that, either.

I'm hardly a great singer by any means, but I'm a good listener and aspire to sing better.


Just remember, a lot of singers who scream do so because they can't sing as well as they'd like, rather than due to the excuse that it's more "rock 'n' roll" to do so.

ianvomsaal

Yes - there are things like vocal training you can get (I had to take some in College.
I got pneumonia, tried to push through it and still sing, developed nodules, and completely lost my voice).
I still don't have the strength I once did (was a 1st tenor - now I'm more of a baritone - because of the damage I did), but I sing properly (you need to sing from the diaphragm, not the throat), and I have better control. Look what happened to Chris Cornell from bad technique (he basically blew out his voice - has had to have lots of training to get it back at all).

Vocal instruction/training works - you might find this funny, but James Hetfield (Metallica) lost his voice on the Black Album tour, and he HAD to get vocal training to get his voice back - now you hear him warming up before every practice and show singing scales and stuff (la la la la la la la -- bumblebee bumblebee bumblebee, ect in ascending scales). This stuff works - don't hurt yourself - you'll regret it - go talk to a vocal coach/instructor.

Cheers . . .

- Ian C.T. vom Saal

SLH916

Thank-you for all of the comments. I will talk to a vocal coach. Just a couple more questions.

Does the honey help during a show? My voice starts getting really tired after about an hour, and even speaking starts to feel like a strain.

Is Eddie's voice hardier than most, or is it possible to develop the kind of stamina he has?

korby

scream therapy

IDgotI

SLH916 wrote:

Thank-you for all of the comments. I will talk to a vocal coach. Just a couple more questions.

Does the honey help during a show? My voice starts getting really tired after about an hour, and even speaking starts to feel like a strain.

Is Eddie's voice hardier than most, or is it possible to develop the kind of stamina he has?

Honey will lubricate the vocal cords, but also undermine some of your control. As for sugar, I saw someone post that above. For my part I've always been lead to believe that sugar, particularly refined sugar (the stuff in everything we buy accept honey and raw sugar cane) is the absolute enemy when it comes to singing. It's right up there with milk as something to avoid. Honey is not so bad, but I wouldn't recommend it. Some believe in the tea with honey thing though. Personally I think you'll find nothing helps your voice more than water.

FinsburyParkCarrots

korby wrote:

scream therapy

Yep, but John Lennon's voice was fucked, by the time of Mind Games and Walls and Bridges.

Jeanie

SLH916 wrote:

Thank-you for all of the comments. I will talk to a vocal coach. Just a couple more questions.

Does the honey help during a show? My voice starts getting really tired after about an hour, and even speaking starts to feel like a strain.

Is Eddie's voice hardier than most, or is it possible to develop the kind of stamina he has?

I was told by a vocal coach that pineapple and paw paw contain a particular enzyme that is helpful for the throat. No idea if that's true or not but I do find it works for me. So I do drink pineapple juice in the hours before a performance, but I stick to water during. If my throat is sore, because everybody seems to get sick in the lead up to these things, I might alternate warm water with cold water. And I think that you'll find that alot of what Eddie has developed is due to good breathing and being in tune with his diaphragm and throat muscles and the placement of his tongue and the shaping of his mouth on particular notes. All of these things come into play with singing. The sound should be coming from the diaphragm. And lots and lots and lots of practicing vocal exercises and breathing will help you develop more power and stamina. BUT you need to go to a vocal coach or singing teacher and be taught what you need to know by a professional.

Jeanie

IDgotI wrote:

Honey will lubricate the vocal cords, but also undermine some of your control. As for sugar, I saw someone post that above. For my part I've always been lead to believe that sugar, particularly refined sugar (the stuff in everything we buy accept honey and raw sugar cane) is the absolute enemy when it comes to singing. It's right up there with milk as something to avoid. Honey is not so bad, but I wouldn't recommend it. Some believe in the tea with honey thing though. Personally I think you'll find nothing helps your voice more than water.

I agree with you. Sugar = Bad for the throat. Which probably throws my whole pineapple theory out the window coz it's all sugar!! But the enzyme!!! And ditto Milk = Bad for the throat. Water, water, water.

ianvomsaal

Warm water seems to be best (plain hot herbal tea works well sometimes).
Honey is not very good for singing - it actually seems to tighten the larynx.
I use to sip on a Boddingtons or Guinness every now and then during my shows (alcohol is actually supposed to be bad since it dries you out).
They make a throat spray called Vocal Eze: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Travel-Wellness-VocalEze-Vocalist-Throat-Spray?sku=430241
that uses and herbs glycerin to help lubricate the throat - I liked it okay, but I seemed to use a lot of it.
Here's another brand called Clear Voice: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Clear-Voice-Vocal-Spray?sku=430130
Anything you can think of to help lubricate your throat will work.
A friend of mine (blues singer) chews sugarless gum - really seems to work for her - and she sounds amazing every night.
Cheers . . .

- Ian C.T. vom Saal

Jeanie

ianvomsaal wrote:

Warm water seems to be best (plain hot herbal tea works well sometimes).
Honey is not very good for singing - it actually seems to tighten the larynx.
I use to sip on a Boddingtons or Guinness every now and then during my shows (alcohol is actually supposed to be bad since it dries you out).
They make a throat spray called Vocal Eze: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Travel-Wellness-VocalEze-Vocalist-Throat-Spray?sku=430241
that uses and herbs glycerin to help lubricate the throat - I liked it okay, but I seemed to use a lot of it.
Here's another brand called Clear Voice: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Clear-Voice-Vocal-Spray?sku=430130
Anything you can think of to help lubricate your throat will work.
A friend of mine (blues singer) chews sugarless gum - really seems to work for her - and she sounds amazing every night.
Cheers . . .

- Ian C.T. vom Saal

Oh yes!! I've had the Vocal Eze! It's excellent!
And I also find chewing sugarless gum very, very helpful. Must be the natural saliva production or something.

not4u

i havn't read any posts here but its simple... Always return to your base.

Dirty Mosquito

I have used Throat Coat Tea and it really seems to work. It clears your voice and soothes. I smoke, which I've noticed has significantly altered my abilities especially in the last year or two, but it does help me.

Pearl Jam and toast

So,..

Any tips/drills/excercises/techniques for being able to use my diaphragm in higher registers? I can go up in scales and notice the point where I start using my throat to hit the note. Don't have money or frankly want to get a coach either.

xtremehardy388

Take DEEP breathes. I had to do breathing excersizes for trumpet and then after my accident(when I tore my diafragm). Anyway, if you really want excersizes, take deep breathes. Inhale. When you exhale, push your breath out slowly. It should take a full minute. When you inhale again, take the full minute. Do this for ten minutes. If you hve a piano, sing along to the scales. Start low and then work your way up. If you miss a note, start ALL over again. You'll get frustrated but keep going.

ianvomsaal

Take a chorus class at your local Community College. It'll be cheap, and you'll end up doing lots of exercises in class to get you singing better -- I knew a few guys that took chorus classes because they needed to build their voices back after nodule surgery.
I ended up being another to do this - I was a 1st tenor my freshman year, and by my junior year had to switch to baritone (due to my own vocal trouble I had to start singing lower). The chorus classes helped me get back my vocal strength after a 'bout with pneumonia, and after getting a couple nodules removed (this is something you won’t want to get - you usually get them from singing with poor technique - I got them from singing while really sick). Chekc it out, it actually helps.
Cheers . . .

- Ian

goo

I've always wondered for sure what the biggest singers out there, especially rock singers screamers and shriekers, have done to preserve their voices for as long as they'll hold out. Here's a perfect example I think... the more I got into Led Zeppelin, the more I noticed how Plant's voice just went more and more downhill as their career progressed. Some of that came with age and smoking I'm sure, but by my listening to Physical Graffiti and also enduring some of the painful vocal performances of the '75 tour, my guess is he never had one training session with a vocal coach. It seems like voices that once had so much character are not made to last too long, especially when there is no training. Some singers have gotten lucky, Steven Tyler for one, whose voices have remained solid as a rock for 30+ years.

SLH916

ianvomsaal wrote:

Yes - there are things like vocal training you can get (I had to take some in College.
I got pneumonia, tried to push through it and still sing, developed nodules, and completely lost my voice).
I still don't have the strength I once did (was a 1st tenor - now I'm more of a baritone - because of the damage I did), but I sing properly (you need to sing from the diaphragm, not the throat), and I have better control. Look what happened to Chris Cornell from bad technique (he basically blew out his voice - has had to have lots of training to get it back at all).

Vocal instruction/training works - you might find this funny, but James Hetfield (Metallica) lost his voice on the Black Album tour, and he HAD to get vocal training to get his voice back - now you hear him warming up before every practice and show singing scales and stuff (la la la la la la la -- bumblebee bumblebee bumblebee, ect in ascending scales). This stuff works - don't hurt yourself - you'll regret it - go talk to a vocal coach/instructor.

Cheers . . .

- Ian C.T. vom Saal

I'm as curious as Goo about rock singers. I know that I've damaged my voice from singing with bad technique, but I didn't know that you can bring it back.

I know exactly what Goo is talking about with Robert Plant. I was a big fan, and some of those performances are excruciating to listen to, but he sounds better today than he did 20 years ago. On the other hand, I think that Roger Daltrey has never gone through a really bad period, and look at all the screaming he's had to do.

Is it really as simple as just singing from your diaghram and shaping the words correctly? Is it genetics? Is it vocal exercises?

I heard Stephen Stills recently, and it was scary. That is a voice that's going to have to be resurrected from the dead.

Pearl Jam and toast

SLH916 wrote:

I'm as curious as Goo about rock singers. I know that I've damaged my voice from singing with bad technique, but I didn't know that you can bring it back.

I know exactly what Goo is talking about with Robert Plant. I was a big fan, and some of those performances are excruciating to listen to, but he sounds better today than he did 20 years ago. On the other hand, I think that Roger Daltrey has never gone through a really bad period, and look at all the screaming he's had to do.

Is it really as simple as just singing from your diaghram and shaping the words correctly? Is it genetics? Is it vocal exercises?

I heard Stephen Stills recently, and it was scary. That is a voice that's going to have to be resurrected from the dead.

I've always wondered the same thing about guys like Daltrey. Add Ed Vedder, Cornell (though he did have a short shit period at the first audioslave album I'm really astonished at how well his voice has held up even with all his problems), and there are plenty of other examples.

Ian or someone with more expertise: Could poor technique and all that half screaming he did in the 70s be more responsible for Bob Dylan's decline than the billions of cigarettes?

Jeanie

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

I've always wondered the same thing about guys like Daltrey. Add Ed Vedder, Cornell (though he did have a short shit period at the first audioslave album I'm really astonished at how well his voice has held up even with all his problems), and there are plenty of other examples.

Ian or someone with more expertise: Could poor technique and all that half screaming he did in the 70s be more responsible for Bob Dylan's decline than the billions of cigarettes?

It's probably a combination but yes, poor technique can result in all kinds of singing problems. Least that's what all of my singing teachers/vocal coaches have always said and also what I have read. But also people's voices change as they age. So it's possible that comes into play also.

ianvomsaal

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

I've always wondered the same thing about guys like Daltrey. Add Ed Vedder, Cornell (though he did have a short shit period at the first audioslave album I'm really astonished at how well his voice has held up even with all his problems), and there are plenty of other examples.
Ian or someone with more expertise: Could poor technique and all that half screaming he did in the 70s be more responsible for Bob Dylan's decline than the billions of cigarettes?

Yes, poor technique can result in vocal problems, but cigarettes are also something to add to the mix, they'll really kill your voice if you're not careful.
However, peoples voices do change as they age/mature - Listen to how Ed Vedder's voice has changed since the TEN album. I know Ed went through a few problems in the Mid 90"s - During my regular session days I had an opportunity to record a tune with PJ (1996 - it must have been a B-side track or something - I haven't heard it since). Anyhow, ED was struggling so much with his voice that day that they asked me to come back the following day to finish up - I don't think he wanted anyone hearing him squawk and hack so much, so he just called it a day. I think he quit smoking for a bit after that - I know he's back smoking so I figure he's bound to have problems again, just give it time.
So, BOTTOM LINE - everything you do can affect your voice - poor technique, cigarettes, lack of sleep, singing while sick, drinking the wrong thing, overuse without proper down time, and a tone of other things.
Have fun, practice proper technique, and stay away from cigarettes.
Cheers . . .

- Ian C.T. vom Saal

SLH916

Pearl Jam and Toast and I want to thank everyone who has helped us.

First off, Ian, you sang with Ed? Wow! Was he better the second day? I haven't listened to any mid-90's boots. Did he go through a nasty patch during that time and is there a point in time when he improved? He sounds great now.

Second, if you have damaged your voice, will just resting it, bring it back? I think that PJandT and I are both a little worried about it.

Third, do you smoke PJandT?

xtremehardy388

depends on how you damaged it what downtime consists of. Green Tea is a great soother though.

ianvomsaal

SLH916 wrote:

Pearl Jam and Toast and I want to thank everyone who has helped us.
First off, Ian, you sang with Ed? Wow! Was he better the second day? I haven't listened to any mid-90's boots. Did he go through a nasty patch during that time and is there a point in time when he improved? He sounds great now.
Second, if you have damaged your voice, will just resting it, bring it back? I think that PJandT and I are both a little worried about it.
Third, do you smoke PJandT?

No, I didn't sing with Ed . . . I played guitar with the band (that's what I do).
I have a Music Degree in Jazz/Classical Guitar Studies.
Yes Ed was better the 2nd day - said he got some decent rest.
That was in my Studio Troll days - that's all I did - I was a 22yr old studio bum.
No, not just rest alone will bring it back, but getting proper rest, warming up, proper technique, and certain throat sprays can help.
Cheers . . .

- Ian C.T. vom Saal

Pearl Jam and toast

You can kind of hear how Ed's voice is weak on No Code. It's frail.. a bit pitchy.. And having no expertise really I can tell you why that probably is..

He screamed his ass off for 5 years strait. Simple enough? I don't think he was using quite proper technique on the vitalogy tour either.. which would allude to the fact that his voice got tired and drained towards the end of the 1995 shows but nowadays (and since really) he's been able to go the full length at pretty much full strength.

Yes I smoke :-/. I'd say I smoke too much, but compared to other smokers I'm a lightweight... a pack every 5-10 days.

SLH916

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

Yes I smoke :-/. I'd say I smoke too much, but compared to other smokers I'm a lightweight... a pack every 5-10 days.

Pearl Jam and Toast,

Do you lay off smoking if you know you are going to sing? Does it make a difference?

Watching Ed singing with a cigarette in his hand makes me cringe, but people like Frank Sinatra used to do it all the time, and he sang until he was 80.

Jeanie

SLH916 wrote:

.....Second, if you have damaged your voice, will just resting it, bring it back? I think that PJandT and I are both a little worried about it.....

Not to freak you out, or bring Julie Andrews into it, :eek: but regardless of what you think of her, she is certainly a singer and was one her whole life.
Anyway, she lost her ability to sing entirely after surgery on her voice box.
I've included a link.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2002/langer-andrews.html

SLH916

Jeanie wrote:

Not to freak you out, or bring Julie Andrews into it, :eek: but regardless of what you think of her, she is certainly a singer and was one her whole life.
Anyway, she lost her ability to sing entirely after surgery on her voice box.
I've included a link.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2002/langer-andrews.html

I don't know what to say to that. The Sound of Music was my favorite movie from 1st grade through college. That voice was the soundtrack to my childhood. I hope they can help her.