Pearl Jam Groundworks 2001 HD Master

on2legs

Zod said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Zod said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Zod said:

I still can't believe it's in HD.   This must of been in the very infancy in the format.  I think I got my first HD TV around 2007.  HD had been out for a few years but it was still pretty new, and there wasn't alot to watch in HD quality.

I didn't think anything from 2001 was filmed in HD, so this was an amazing surprise.

Hopefully the poster puts the raw video somewhere to watch one day (and maybe a few of the other sets from Groundwork).

HD video has existed long before that. This is 91/92:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmk0AVNRBIY

I was referring to digital, not film.

Film isn't a precise resolution, but something like 35mm film carries more detail than 1080p video.  It's just that it was really rare back in the day to film concerns on actual film.  Cost, and size of equipment were much larger.   That's why finding classic concerts on film is like winning the lottery.  They're so far and few between.  Especially in the 80s/90's when videotape was so much cheaper.

I guess Groundwork 2001 could of been on film, but the poster mentioned digital files.   HD quality digital in 2001 would of been in it's infancy?  That's before there would of been much of anything to watch it on.

I have not mentioned film

You did.  The Tori Amos video you linked was sourced from 35mm film. It was implied.   You were making an argument that HD video existed for a long time, then linked a video from the montreux concerts which were filmed on 35mm film.

I was pointing out that HD as we currently know it (the digital format) didn't really become a thing until the 21st century.  Anything from the 90s or older, that's in HD, was sourced from old school analog film.  Not HD video.   Film doesn't have a precise resolution, but 35mm film has picture quality in excess of 4k digital video.  The analog film gets scanned and digitized for video release.

Most concerts aren't recorded on film.  There's gems through out history.  Led Zeppelin's The Song Remains the Same, Nirvana's Live at the Paramount, The GNR bluray in the use your illusion boxset, etc, but it's super rare because of how expensive it was at the time.  So many concerts were put onto video tape in the 80s/90s/early 00s.   Videotape is stuck in SD.  Film is nearly timeless.  This is why it's like winning the lottery when a band uncovers a concert recorded on film in their archives.  It's the only way to so old school classic concerts to be released in HD.

That's why the groundwork release amazed me.   It wouldn't of been a show they'd shell out to film in 35mm, but it was a few years before HD went mainstream.   To have a show from 2001 recorded in digital HD video is pretty rare, and a pretty cool find by that poster on youtube.

Short version:  You supported your argument with a video that was sourced from 35mm film.  That's why I discussed film in my post.  It's also possible I'm being pedantic and people just intertwine film quality with HD quality, but they're not exactly the same thing

I also wonder if Pearl Jam as ever recorded their classic shows on 35mm (or even 16mm), it would be amazing to see a classic PJ show in HD.

**Technically there were places that tried different versions of analog HD in the 20th century but they never really caught on and were footnotes in history then something widely used, classic concerts in HD still all come from film**

That was a really good explanation for us noobs.  Thank you for taking the time to write it out. Good stuff. 

PB11041

Zod said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Zod said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Zod said:

I still can't believe it's in HD.   This must of been in the very infancy in the format.  I think I got my first HD TV around 2007.  HD had been out for a few years but it was still pretty new, and there wasn't alot to watch in HD quality.

I didn't think anything from 2001 was filmed in HD, so this was an amazing surprise.

Hopefully the poster puts the raw video somewhere to watch one day (and maybe a few of the other sets from Groundwork).

HD video has existed long before that. This is 91/92:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmk0AVNRBIY

I was referring to digital, not film.

Film isn't a precise resolution, but something like 35mm film carries more detail than 1080p video.  It's just that it was really rare back in the day to film concerns on actual film.  Cost, and size of equipment were much larger.   That's why finding classic concerts on film is like winning the lottery.  They're so far and few between.  Especially in the 80s/90's when videotape was so much cheaper.

I guess Groundwork 2001 could of been on film, but the poster mentioned digital files.   HD quality digital in 2001 would of been in it's infancy?  That's before there would of been much of anything to watch it on.

I have not mentioned film

You did.  The Tori Amos video you linked was sourced from 35mm film. It was implied.   You were making an argument that HD video existed for a long time, then linked a video from the montreux concerts which were filmed on 35mm film.

I was pointing out that HD as we currently know it (the digital format) didn't really become a thing until the 21st century.  Anything from the 90s or older, that's in HD, was sourced from old school analog film.  Not HD video.   Film doesn't have a precise resolution, but 35mm film has picture quality in excess of 4k digital video.  The analog film gets scanned and digitized for video release.

Most concerts aren't recorded on film.  There's gems through out history.  Led Zeppelin's The Song Remains the Same, Nirvana's Live at the Paramount, The GNR bluray in the use your illusion boxset, etc, but it's super rare because of how expensive it was at the time.  So many concerts were put onto video tape in the 80s/90s/early 00s.   Videotape is stuck in SD.  Film is nearly timeless.  This is why it's like winning the lottery when a band uncovers a concert recorded on film in their archives.  It's the only way to so old school classic concerts to be released in HD.

That's why the groundwork release amazed me.   It wouldn't of been a show they'd shell out to film in 35mm, but it was a few years before HD went mainstream.   To have a show from 2001 recorded in digital HD video is pretty rare, and a pretty cool find by that poster on youtube.

Short version:  You supported your argument with a video that was sourced from 35mm film.  That's why I discussed film in my post.  It's also possible I'm being pedantic and people just intertwine film quality with HD quality, but they're not exactly the same thing

I also wonder if Pearl Jam as ever recorded their classic shows on 35mm (or even 16mm), it would be amazing to see a classic PJ show in HD.

**Technically there were places that tried different versions of analog HD in the 20th century but they never really caught on and were footnotes in history then something widely used, classic concerts in HD still all come from film**

You are correct, not being pedantic. Sorry if I confused things, wasn't implying this was shot digitally, just was giving some timelines of a visit to an exhibit I did at the George Eastman Museum.  

PB11041

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PB11041 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PB11041 said:

igotid88 said:

Zod said:

I still can't believe it's in HD.   This must of been in the very infancy in the format.  I think I got my first HD TV around 2007.  HD had been out for a few years but it was still pretty new, and there wasn't alot to watch in HD quality.

I didn't think anything from 2001 was filmed in HD, so this was an amazing surprise.

Hopefully the poster puts the raw video somewhere to watch one day (and maybe a few of the other sets from Groundwork).

Wasn't HD talked about in the 90s or something?

The first HD quality film was shot in 1987, the first commercial players with HD and consumer cameras came about in 2006.  Attack of the clones was produced in 4K in 2002.  Bottom line this was probably shot with a very high quality professional camera that was either HD or just extremely high end widescreen. 

 Attack of the Clones was not shot in 4K. It was shot on Sony HD-CAM and matted for ~1920x800.

And what exactly do you mean by "high end widescreen" compared to HD?

I didn't say attack of the clone was shot in 4K, I said it was produced, and it was, produced using 4k resolution standards.

What are you even talking about here

the specifics of the question you asked and the implication that I said something I did not. 

Spiritual_Chaos

PB11041 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PB11041 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PB11041 said:

igotid88 said:

Zod said:

I still can't believe it's in HD.   This must of been in the very infancy in the format.  I think I got my first HD TV around 2007.  HD had been out for a few years but it was still pretty new, and there wasn't alot to watch in HD quality.

I didn't think anything from 2001 was filmed in HD, so this was an amazing surprise.

Hopefully the poster puts the raw video somewhere to watch one day (and maybe a few of the other sets from Groundwork).

Wasn't HD talked about in the 90s or something?

The first HD quality film was shot in 1987, the first commercial players with HD and consumer cameras came about in 2006.  Attack of the clones was produced in 4K in 2002.  Bottom line this was probably shot with a very high quality professional camera that was either HD or just extremely high end widescreen. 

 Attack of the Clones was not shot in 4K. It was shot on Sony HD-CAM and matted for ~1920x800.

And what exactly do you mean by "high end widescreen" compared to HD?

I didn't say attack of the clone was shot in 4K, I said it was produced, and it was, produced using 4k resolution standards.

What are you even talking about here

the specifics of the question you asked and the implication that I said something I did not. 

What do you mean by ”4K resolution standards”

2-feign-reluctance

Love the collared shirt EV era! LOL! 

Spiritual_Chaos

on2legs said:

Zod said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Zod said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Zod said:

I still can't believe it's in HD.   This must of been in the very infancy in the format.  I think I got my first HD TV around 2007.  HD had been out for a few years but it was still pretty new, and there wasn't alot to watch in HD quality.

I didn't think anything from 2001 was filmed in HD, so this was an amazing surprise.

Hopefully the poster puts the raw video somewhere to watch one day (and maybe a few of the other sets from Groundwork).

HD video has existed long before that. This is 91/92:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmk0AVNRBIY

I was referring to digital, not film.

Film isn't a precise resolution, but something like 35mm film carries more detail than 1080p video.  It's just that it was really rare back in the day to film concerns on actual film.  Cost, and size of equipment were much larger.   That's why finding classic concerts on film is like winning the lottery.  They're so far and few between.  Especially in the 80s/90's when videotape was so much cheaper.

I guess Groundwork 2001 could of been on film, but the poster mentioned digital files.   HD quality digital in 2001 would of been in it's infancy?  That's before there would of been much of anything to watch it on.

I have not mentioned film

You did.  The Tori Amos video you linked was sourced from 35mm film. It was implied.   You were making an argument that HD video existed for a long time, then linked a video from the montreux concerts which were filmed on 35mm film.

I was pointing out that HD as we currently know it (the digital format) didn't really become a thing until the 21st century.  Anything from the 90s or older, that's in HD, was sourced from old school analog film.  Not HD video.   Film doesn't have a precise resolution, but 35mm film has picture quality in excess of 4k digital video.  The analog film gets scanned and digitized for video release.

Most concerts aren't recorded on film.  There's gems through out history.  Led Zeppelin's The Song Remains the Same, Nirvana's Live at the Paramount, The GNR bluray in the use your illusion boxset, etc, but it's super rare because of how expensive it was at the time.  So many concerts were put onto video tape in the 80s/90s/early 00s.   Videotape is stuck in SD.  Film is nearly timeless.  This is why it's like winning the lottery when a band uncovers a concert recorded on film in their archives.  It's the only way to so old school classic concerts to be released in HD.

That's why the groundwork release amazed me.   It wouldn't of been a show they'd shell out to film in 35mm, but it was a few years before HD went mainstream.   To have a show from 2001 recorded in digital HD video is pretty rare, and a pretty cool find by that poster on youtube.

Short version:  You supported your argument with a video that was sourced from 35mm film.  That's why I discussed film in my post.  It's also possible I'm being pedantic and people just intertwine film quality with HD quality, but they're not exactly the same thing

I also wonder if Pearl Jam as ever recorded their classic shows on 35mm (or even 16mm), it would be amazing to see a classic PJ show in HD.

**Technically there were places that tried different versions of analog HD in the 20th century but they never really caught on and were footnotes in history then something widely used, classic concerts in HD still all come from film**

That was a really good explanation for us noobs.  Thank you for taking the time to write it out. Good stuff. 

Here is a good explanation for you noobs (and @Zod) —

— that Tori Amos video isn’t sourced from 35mm film. 

*ta-da*

So, not to repeat myself but; I have not mentioned film. Not to be pedantic. 

*ta-da again*

2-feign-reluctance

Can we all agree that regardless of whatever the source, film type, resolution, weather on the day it was filmed, that this is a badass set?! 

on2legs

2-feign-reluctance said:

Can we all agree that regardless of whatever the source, film type, resolution, weather on the day it was filmed, that this is a badass set?! 

The set is epic!!!

on2legs

Spiritual_Chaos said:

on2legs said:

Zod said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Zod said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Zod said:

I still can't believe it's in HD.   This must of been in the very infancy in the format.  I think I got my first HD TV around 2007.  HD had been out for a few years but it was still pretty new, and there wasn't alot to watch in HD quality.

I didn't think anything from 2001 was filmed in HD, so this was an amazing surprise.

Hopefully the poster puts the raw video somewhere to watch one day (and maybe a few of the other sets from Groundwork).

HD video has existed long before that. This is 91/92:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmk0AVNRBIY

I was referring to digital, not film.

Film isn't a precise resolution, but something like 35mm film carries more detail than 1080p video.  It's just that it was really rare back in the day to film concerns on actual film.  Cost, and size of equipment were much larger.   That's why finding classic concerts on film is like winning the lottery.  They're so far and few between.  Especially in the 80s/90's when videotape was so much cheaper.

I guess Groundwork 2001 could of been on film, but the poster mentioned digital files.   HD quality digital in 2001 would of been in it's infancy?  That's before there would of been much of anything to watch it on.

I have not mentioned film

You did.  The Tori Amos video you linked was sourced from 35mm film. It was implied.   You were making an argument that HD video existed for a long time, then linked a video from the montreux concerts which were filmed on 35mm film.

I was pointing out that HD as we currently know it (the digital format) didn't really become a thing until the 21st century.  Anything from the 90s or older, that's in HD, was sourced from old school analog film.  Not HD video.   Film doesn't have a precise resolution, but 35mm film has picture quality in excess of 4k digital video.  The analog film gets scanned and digitized for video release.

Most concerts aren't recorded on film.  There's gems through out history.  Led Zeppelin's The Song Remains the Same, Nirvana's Live at the Paramount, The GNR bluray in the use your illusion boxset, etc, but it's super rare because of how expensive it was at the time.  So many concerts were put onto video tape in the 80s/90s/early 00s.   Videotape is stuck in SD.  Film is nearly timeless.  This is why it's like winning the lottery when a band uncovers a concert recorded on film in their archives.  It's the only way to so old school classic concerts to be released in HD.

That's why the groundwork release amazed me.   It wouldn't of been a show they'd shell out to film in 35mm, but it was a few years before HD went mainstream.   To have a show from 2001 recorded in digital HD video is pretty rare, and a pretty cool find by that poster on youtube.

Short version:  You supported your argument with a video that was sourced from 35mm film.  That's why I discussed film in my post.  It's also possible I'm being pedantic and people just intertwine film quality with HD quality, but they're not exactly the same thing

I also wonder if Pearl Jam as ever recorded their classic shows on 35mm (or even 16mm), it would be amazing to see a classic PJ show in HD.

**Technically there were places that tried different versions of analog HD in the 20th century but they never really caught on and were footnotes in history then something widely used, classic concerts in HD still all come from film**

That was a really good explanation for us noobs.  Thank you for taking the time to write it out. Good stuff. 

Here is a good explanation for you noobs (and @Zod) —

— that Tori Amos video isn’t sourced from 35mm film. 

*ta-da*

So, not to repeat myself but; I have not mentioned film. Not to be pedantic. 

*ta-da again*

That wasn't really a good explanation.  Going to go with Zod's.

mrk2

Those early 90's Montreux festival shows were not shot on film.

Found some info on Toto's performance at the same festival in 1991 from a couple of forums, including this one :
https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/7z336v/a_video_from_1991_recorded_in_1080_hd_looks_like/

The entire Jazz Festival was recorded using the Sony HDVS system, 1125 lines interlaced analog component video signal. with 16x9 aspect ratio. So it is basically 1080i when converted to digital. The audio was recorded with 2 Sony 48 track DASH digital recorders at 16 bit resolution 48 KHz sample rate.

The VTR's used to record the concert recorded the analog component HD video digitally along with separate 8 channel 16 bit 48 Khz audio, so a 8 channel audio sub mix was fed to the truck to be recorded to the tape with the video.

The production used 5 cameras 4 Sony HDC-300 3 tube HDVS cameras and one Sony HDC-500 3 CCD HDVS camera (a prototype). The 5 cameras where fed into an 8 input HDS-1000T switcher a ,live mix was recorded to an HDD-1000 Digital 1" VTR. Three of the cameras where also directly run to their own HDD-1000 VTR(ISO CAMS) so that more shots could be added or changed in post production.

The entire system of 4 VTR's and 2 DASH audio recorders was synced through the use of SMPTE time code. The output of the switcher was also fed through a Sony HDN-22000 NTSC/PAL down-converter, the output of which was recorded on Betacam SP and D2 to allow local broadcast outlets have copies of the jazz festival for use in their broadcasts.

Other notable uses of this kind of technology was the Bob Dylan 30th Anniversary concert in 1992.

Spiritual_Chaos

on2legs said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

on2legs said:

Zod said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Zod said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Zod said:

I still can't believe it's in HD.   This must of been in the very infancy in the format.  I think I got my first HD TV around 2007.  HD had been out for a few years but it was still pretty new, and there wasn't alot to watch in HD quality.

I didn't think anything from 2001 was filmed in HD, so this was an amazing surprise.

Hopefully the poster puts the raw video somewhere to watch one day (and maybe a few of the other sets from Groundwork).

HD video has existed long before that. This is 91/92:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmk0AVNRBIY

I was referring to digital, not film.

Film isn't a precise resolution, but something like 35mm film carries more detail than 1080p video.  It's just that it was really rare back in the day to film concerns on actual film.  Cost, and size of equipment were much larger.   That's why finding classic concerts on film is like winning the lottery.  They're so far and few between.  Especially in the 80s/90's when videotape was so much cheaper.

I guess Groundwork 2001 could of been on film, but the poster mentioned digital files.   HD quality digital in 2001 would of been in it's infancy?  That's before there would of been much of anything to watch it on.

I have not mentioned film

You did.  The Tori Amos video you linked was sourced from 35mm film. It was implied.   You were making an argument that HD video existed for a long time, then linked a video from the montreux concerts which were filmed on 35mm film.

I was pointing out that HD as we currently know it (the digital format) didn't really become a thing until the 21st century.  Anything from the 90s or older, that's in HD, was sourced from old school analog film.  Not HD video.   Film doesn't have a precise resolution, but 35mm film has picture quality in excess of 4k digital video.  The analog film gets scanned and digitized for video release.

Most concerts aren't recorded on film.  There's gems through out history.  Led Zeppelin's The Song Remains the Same, Nirvana's Live at the Paramount, The GNR bluray in the use your illusion boxset, etc, but it's super rare because of how expensive it was at the time.  So many concerts were put onto video tape in the 80s/90s/early 00s.   Videotape is stuck in SD.  Film is nearly timeless.  This is why it's like winning the lottery when a band uncovers a concert recorded on film in their archives.  It's the only way to so old school classic concerts to be released in HD.

That's why the groundwork release amazed me.   It wouldn't of been a show they'd shell out to film in 35mm, but it was a few years before HD went mainstream.   To have a show from 2001 recorded in digital HD video is pretty rare, and a pretty cool find by that poster on youtube.

Short version:  You supported your argument with a video that was sourced from 35mm film.  That's why I discussed film in my post.  It's also possible I'm being pedantic and people just intertwine film quality with HD quality, but they're not exactly the same thing

I also wonder if Pearl Jam as ever recorded their classic shows on 35mm (or even 16mm), it would be amazing to see a classic PJ show in HD.

**Technically there were places that tried different versions of analog HD in the 20th century but they never really caught on and were footnotes in history then something widely used, classic concerts in HD still all come from film**

That was a really good explanation for us noobs.  Thank you for taking the time to write it out. Good stuff. 

Here is a good explanation for you noobs (and @Zod) —

— that Tori Amos video isn’t sourced from 35mm film. 

*ta-da*

So, not to repeat myself but; I have not mentioned film. Not to be pedantic. 

*ta-da again*

That wasn't really a good explanation.  Going to go with Zod's.

Ofc you would.

Spiritual_Chaos

mrk2 said:

Those early 90's Montreux festival shows were not shot on film.

Found some info on Toto's performance at the same festival in 1991 from a couple of forums, including this one :
https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/7z336v/a_video_from_1991_recorded_in_1080_hd_looks_like/

The entire Jazz Festival was recorded using the Sony HDVS system, 1125 lines interlaced analog component video signal. with 16x9 aspect ratio. So it is basically 1080i when converted to digital. The audio was recorded with 2 Sony 48 track DASH digital recorders at 16 bit resolution 48 KHz sample rate.

The VTR's used to record the concert recorded the analog component HD video digitally along with separate 8 channel 16 bit 48 Khz audio, so a 8 channel audio sub mix was fed to the truck to be recorded to the tape with the video.

The production used 5 cameras 4 Sony HDC-300 3 tube HDVS cameras and one Sony HDC-500 3 CCD HDVS camera (a prototype). The 5 cameras where fed into an 8 input HDS-1000T switcher a ,live mix was recorded to an HDD-1000 Digital 1" VTR. Three of the cameras where also directly run to their own HDD-1000 VTR(ISO CAMS) so that more shots could be added or changed in post production.

The entire system of 4 VTR's and 2 DASH audio recorders was synced through the use of SMPTE time code. The output of the switcher was also fed through a Sony HDN-22000 NTSC/PAL down-converter, the output of which was recorded on Betacam SP and D2 to allow local broadcast outlets have copies of the jazz festival for use in their broadcasts.

Other notable uses of this kind of technology was the Bob Dylan 30th Anniversary concert in 1992.

Almost sounds like you are in this thread claiming that a Tori Amos video from 1991 was shot on video and not film.

igotid88

https://youtu.be/RVD4RGgKzPA?si=h1C5wo1vPLYO432q

demetrios

igotid88 said:

https://youtu.be/RVD4RGgKzPA?si=h1C5wo1vPLYO432q

Awesome!!!

2-feign-reluctance

Insignificance from that era was a fucking beast of a song! Still one of my favorite to play on my guitar. 

Zod

ok, feel bad wasting all that time explaining where most HD material of classic concerts from, only to find out Montreux did their own thing, and used extremely uncommon HD cameras and technology to record many of their sets. 

As well as finding it amazing that someone was recording PJ's 2001 set in digital HD when modern HD was in it's infancy, I find it even more amazing Montreux festival was doing it 10 years earlier before that was even a thing.  That's amazing.

Any entity or band that was capturing these things in amazing quality at a time where most people were using videotape should get high honours and praise

matt3846

2-feign-reluctance said:

Love the collared shirt EV era! LOL! 

The Jason Bateman era!

darthvedder

I had forgotten they debuted I Am Mine at the Bridge School Benefit that weekend. Groundwork was the "plugged in" debut. You can tell it's a work in progress, as the tempo is a bit slower.

NAIS is cut from this video. I don't remember if it was officially released or not.

Spiritual_Chaos

Not weird or frustrating, but some other feeling... that Pearl Jam stood in front of HD cameras at a charity gig in 2001 but chose SD for their commercially released Madison Square Garden gig two years later. 

I mean, they were on Sony at the time. Make some phone calls.

Zod

That's right up there with Imagine in Cornice being filmed in HD but was only released on DVD :(