Is ending the divide/coming together for common good, having civil discourse even possible today?

lastexitlondon

gimmesometruth27 said:

lastexitlondon said:

Social media and hunting in packs ruin rational thinking. I'm not American but world wide communication is at a low. In a world with many ways to communicate. If we tried to treat people like we would like to be treated it would help everyone 

there is a whole political party here that wants to take rights away from women and lgbtq community. i will never, ever treat those people the way i would want to be treated, because they are actually harming people. fuck them.

Gladly we don't have that here. So that's a problem i don't come into contact with.

brianlux

Thanks all for thoughtful answers here. 
What I'm coming away with here is a reflection of something I hate to admit which is that deep division in this country (and possible other countries) is at this point in history so heavily ingrained there is little hope (but maybe there's always some hope) of finding common ground (if there even is such a thing) and learning to work together for the good. 
On a personal note, I have immersed myself in various pro-environmental and social justice efforts for most of my adult life (with its seeds going back as far as high school), have seen improvements in some areas, but generally have come to the conclusion that our environmental and political climates simply continues to erode.  My apologies for the negativity.  I'm just being honest.  Five decades of giving a shit... for what?  Sometimes I wonder.

So anyway, unless I can come up with something more positive to say, I'll let this thread find its own way.  Good luck to us all.

Gern Blansten

brianlux said:

Thanks all for thoughtful answers here. 
What I'm coming away with here is a reflection of something I hate to admit which is that deep division in this country (and possible other countries) is at this point in history so heavily ingrained there is little hope (but maybe there's always some hope) of finding common ground (if there even is such a thing) and learning to work together for the good. 
On a personal note, I have immersed myself in various pro-environmental and social justice efforts for most of my adult life (with its seeds going back as far as high school), have seen improvements in some areas, but generally have come to the conclusion that our environmental and political climates simply continues to erode.  My apologies for the negativity.  I'm just being honest.  Five decades of giving a shit... for what?  Sometimes I wonder.

So anyway, unless I can come up with something more positive to say, I'll let this thread find its own way.  Good luck to us all.

I think we are seeing the boundary of free speech. Why should we let these outlets spew hateful fake bullshit and create their own bullshit universe? It's like our 2nd amendment problem. People misinterpret and politicians raise millions then we end up fucking killing each other.

And we can also thank Citizens United.

brianlux

Gern Blansten said:

brianlux said:

Thanks all for thoughtful answers here. 
What I'm coming away with here is a reflection of something I hate to admit which is that deep division in this country (and possible other countries) is at this point in history so heavily ingrained there is little hope (but maybe there's always some hope) of finding common ground (if there even is such a thing) and learning to work together for the good. 
On a personal note, I have immersed myself in various pro-environmental and social justice efforts for most of my adult life (with its seeds going back as far as high school), have seen improvements in some areas, but generally have come to the conclusion that our environmental and political climates simply continues to erode.  My apologies for the negativity.  I'm just being honest.  Five decades of giving a shit... for what?  Sometimes I wonder.

So anyway, unless I can come up with something more positive to say, I'll let this thread find its own way.  Good luck to us all.

I think we are seeing the boundary of free speech. Why should we let these outlets spew hateful fake bullshit and create their own bullshit universe? It's like our 2nd amendment problem. People misinterpret and politicians raise millions then we end up fucking killing each other.

And we can also thank Citizens United.

Wait till ChatGPT takes over the show.  Then we'll really be royally fucked.

Gern Blansten

brianlux said:

Gern Blansten said:

brianlux said:

Thanks all for thoughtful answers here. 
What I'm coming away with here is a reflection of something I hate to admit which is that deep division in this country (and possible other countries) is at this point in history so heavily ingrained there is little hope (but maybe there's always some hope) of finding common ground (if there even is such a thing) and learning to work together for the good. 
On a personal note, I have immersed myself in various pro-environmental and social justice efforts for most of my adult life (with its seeds going back as far as high school), have seen improvements in some areas, but generally have come to the conclusion that our environmental and political climates simply continues to erode.  My apologies for the negativity.  I'm just being honest.  Five decades of giving a shit... for what?  Sometimes I wonder.

So anyway, unless I can come up with something more positive to say, I'll let this thread find its own way.  Good luck to us all.

I think we are seeing the boundary of free speech. Why should we let these outlets spew hateful fake bullshit and create their own bullshit universe? It's like our 2nd amendment problem. People misinterpret and politicians raise millions then we end up fucking killing each other.

And we can also thank Citizens United.

Wait till ChatGPT takes over the show.  Then we'll really be royally fucked.

tRump will never die...he'll live in ChatGPT forever

brianlux

I generally find the notion of "sides coming together" a hopeless concept.  Reading the responses on this thread basically confirms that assumption.

But then I see something like the article below and can't help but wonder... maybe it's not so far fetched.  Now, of course, the basis of the friendship the article addresses is centered around an art form, but that confirms another belief I have which is that the creative arts can bring people together in ways few other things can and maybe if we focused on that concept more often, things wouldn't be so bad.

Wishful thinking?  Maybe, but I tend to fall into being a curmudgeon too easily at times so maybe wishful thinking isn't such a bad thing.  Just a thought.

https://www.nme.com/news/music/tom-morello-defends-his-friendship-with-ted-nugent-3073080

Tom Morello defends his friendship with Ted Nugent

“I reserve the right to be friends with anybody"

Tom Morello has defended his unlikely friendship with Ted Nugent in a new interview with NME.

The Rage Against The Machine guitarist previously told The Howard Stern Show back in March that while he and Nugent (who has faced frequent scrutiny over his controversial right-wing views) “certainly have differences, I consider him a friend”.

• Read More: Tom Morello: “In the past, I’ve wanted to use music as a battering ram for social justice”

Speaking to NME about their relationship, Morello said that he “reserves the right to be friends with anybody”.

...more at link

HughFreakingDillon

I'd like to pose a question: how divided ARE we, really? I mean "we" as everyone. Millions upon millions. There will always be polar
opposites. But the vast, vast majority fall into the middle. as always, the extremes tend to be the loudest, no matter the side (MTG, AOC, etc). 

AMT is not a good barometer for real life. This is literally the only place I discuss politics to this extent. If someone I know/care about starts spouting off about something I disagree with, knowing full well it won't end well (especially if there's alcohol involved), I shut it down. No winner, no loser. Just quit the game. 

we keep getting TOLD how divided we are. by whom? the media. why? they profit off the division, as do the politicians they say are causing it (they are both at fault). i'd like to think about 70-85% of us are not divided at all, at least not to the extent we're told we are. 

there has always been violence in this world; political, domestic, random, etc. That will literally never go away. how much of that violence wouldn't happen without the constant barrage of hateful bullshit coming out of the mouths of the people we are paying to tell us (media) and the people we pay to change it (politicians)?

we give those who influence us the most way too much power. 


SSS

Stay informed
Shut out the noise
Shut off the news

dudeman

HughFreakingDillon said:

I'd like to pose a question: how divided ARE we, really? I mean "we" as everyone. Millions upon millions. There will always be polar
opposites. But the vast, vast majority fall into the middle. as always, the extremes tend to be the loudest, no matter the side (MTG, AOC, etc). 

AMT is not a good barometer for real life. This is literally the only place I discuss politics to this extent. If someone I know/care about starts spouting off about something I disagree with, knowing full well it won't end well (especially if there's alcohol involved), I shut it down. No winner, no loser. Just quit the game. 

we keep getting TOLD how divided we are. by whom? the media. why? they profit off the division, as do the politicians they say are causing it (they are both at fault). i'd like to think about 70-85% of us are not divided at all, at least not to the extent we're told we are. 

there has always been violence in this world; political, domestic, random, etc. That will literally never go away. how much of that violence wouldn't happen without the constant barrage of hateful bullshit coming out of the mouths of the people we are paying to tell us (media) and the people we pay to change it (politicians)?

we give those who influence us the most way too much power. 


SSS

Stay informed
Shut out the noise
Shut off the news

Well said, friend!

OnWis97

HughFreakingDillon said:

I'd like to pose a question: how divided ARE we, really? I mean "we" as everyone. Millions upon millions. There will always be polar
opposites. But the vast, vast majority fall into the middle. as always, the extremes tend to be the loudest, no matter the side (MTG, AOC, etc). 

AMT is not a good barometer for real life. This is literally the only place I discuss politics to this extent. If someone I know/care about starts spouting off about something I disagree with, knowing full well it won't end well (especially if there's alcohol involved), I shut it down. No winner, no loser. Just quit the game. 

we keep getting TOLD how divided we are. by whom? the media. why? they profit off the division, as do the politicians they say are causing it (they are both at fault). i'd like to think about 70-85% of us are not divided at all, at least not to the extent we're told we are. 

there has always been violence in this world; political, domestic, random, etc. That will literally never go away. how much of that violence wouldn't happen without the constant barrage of hateful bullshit coming out of the mouths of the people we are paying to tell us (media) and the people we pay to change it (politicians)?

we give those who influence us the most way too much power. 


SSS

Stay informed
Shut out the noise
Shut off the news

To your point, many of the millions...well probably most of the millions are not that different. They don't care about Bud Light's advertising, they're not obsessed with hating Trump/Biden/Pelosi/MSNBC/FOX. They do care about inflation, shooting sprees, and fentanyl, but who they blame and what to do about it probably comes down to nuanced difference. However, in a sense, they don't count. If they're not dug in on one party/side and not looking to be outraged, they're difficult to cater/market to.

So it plays out as if we are that divided...and AMT effectively becomes a barometer for real life in terms of the outcomes of who is elected and why (well not exactly; we lean way more left).

That all said, I'm not both-sidings it. For example, I think AOC and MTG is a false equivalency. One is one of the further left congressmembers. The other is not just one of the further right but she's a professional gaslighter and outrage weaponizer. For some reason, outrage media comes from the right far more than the left. I'm not exactly sure why. People on the left are not above being greedy or corrupt and pre-MAGA, it seems that both parties were roughly as likely to be just that in terms of electeds. But right-wing outrage has been a bigger seller going back to Rush. This isn't a both-sides problem. It's a right-wing problem and it's profitable enough that it's not about to change.

HughFreakingDillon

disagree. we all know/think that indies decide elections. not many here are indies. 

I wasn't trying to compare AOC with MTG. i was just giving examples of the two extremes in congress. I wasn't suggesting they are at the same extreme point on their respective side. 

brianlux

HughFreakingDillon said:

I'd like to pose a question: how divided ARE we, really? I mean "we" as everyone. Millions upon millions. There will always be polar
opposites. But the vast, vast majority fall into the middle. as always, the extremes tend to be the loudest, no matter the side (MTG, AOC, etc). 

AMT is not a good barometer for real life. This is literally the only place I discuss politics to this extent. If someone I know/care about starts spouting off about something I disagree with, knowing full well it won't end well (especially if there's alcohol involved), I shut it down. No winner, no loser. Just quit the game. 

we keep getting TOLD how divided we are. by whom? the media. why? they profit off the division, as do the politicians they say are causing it (they are both at fault). i'd like to think about 70-85% of us are not divided at all, at least not to the extent we're told we are. 

there has always been violence in this world; political, domestic, random, etc. That will literally never go away. how much of that violence wouldn't happen without the constant barrage of hateful bullshit coming out of the mouths of the people we are paying to tell us (media) and the people we pay to change it (politicians)?

we give those who influence us the most way too much power. 


SSS

Stay informed
Shut out the noise
Shut off the news

That's a very good point- news outlets thrive on sensationalism and division and they are surely jacking up the hostilities.  The media has run amuck with getting away with that crap.  Even news outlets I once favored have made their efforts to persuade a higher priority than informing.  We would do well to be wary of any news source that does this because that very act sabotages critical thinking.   

At the same time, some of the division is exacerbated by laws that do not reflect what the majority of people want.  Just a few examples: We all want cleaner air, but lawmakers make it too easy for gross polluters to continue to increase air pollution.  The majority of people are pro-choice, but law makers in this country removed a woman's right to her own body.  The system is broken, and broken systems are part of what increases division.

OnWis97

HughFreakingDillon said:

disagree. we all know/think that indies decide elections. not many here are indies. 

I wasn't trying to compare AOC with MTG. i was just giving examples of the two extremes in congress. I wasn't suggesting they are at the same extreme point on their respective side. 

Indies might decide who wins but they don't decide who's nominated.

cblock4life

OnWis97 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

disagree. we all know/think that indies decide elections. not many here are indies. 

I wasn't trying to compare AOC with MTG. i was just giving examples of the two extremes in congress. I wasn't suggesting they are at the same extreme point on their respective side. 

Indies might decide who wins but they don't decide who's nominated.

Yes.  This allows all us D and R to put the worst available candidates out there for them to vote on.