Ukraine

mrussel1

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

@Spiritual_Chaos Thanks for posting that.  It was a fascinating read.  It's a mix of Putin's thinking with propaganda, so it was interesting.  I can't say how a normal Russian will read that.  But it's interesting that Putin made no promises of economic prosperity from this clash with the Anglo Saxons and the West.  It was purely about reuniting empire.  

One thing that I really took away early, was that he was focused on reuniting the ancient people of eastern Europe.  You could call them Rus or, go up one level and you have Lech, Rus and Czech, the supposed three brothers of legend that settled eastern Europe.  These are the Slavs.  So if Putin is bent on reuniting his people, where does it stop?  Poland, Czech, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia and even Serbia are rooted in these tribes.  Putin's ambition is limitless. 

The Rus (Old East Slavic: Рѹсь, Old Norse: Garðar) are an ethnic group in that formed the Kievan Rus. They were originally Norse people, mainly originating from Sweden. 


Maybe time for Sweden to take back what belongs to us. Waiting for the call any minute now to board closest Volvo and bring our brothers back into the motherland.

You're damn right they were Norse.  You fucking Norse are everywhere.  William the Conqueror was as well.

I'm Ruse, so does that mean I get to be Norse too?

Jearlpam0925

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

So the question may soon become.. What escape hatch will the West give Putin to withdraw and save face?   This has to be a topic of conversation between Ukraine, US, Britain, Germany, etc.  This cannot be an unconditional surrender against Putin.  Let him keep the two breakaways?  Let him keep one?  He isn't going to disarm, obviously.  Nor will his demand for Ukraine's military to overtake the political apparatus happen either. 

May be too early to think about it, but I am.  The war isn't going well for them and the economic sanctions are hitting fast. I can't believe they are mostly cutoff from SWIFT.  I thought this would take much longer.  Sberbank is going to fail.  Market was closed today to protect it.  They are literally an international pariah. 

I've heard others suggest the same thing, that the West needs to give Putin a way to save face.  I understand that argument and, considering his power and instability of mind, it's probably for the best.  But a better solution might be for him to be deposed or eliminated in some way by his own people.  He has brought total shame to his people and country.  Much of the world is united against him.  But of course, because of that, the question becomes, how desperate and unstable has he become.

As a side note, I'm a little surprised how relative little traction this event has been gained here on AMT.  The war in Ukraine is the biggest current event to happen in the world in many years and yet only a handful of people post here while other, less pressing issues seem to get equal or greater attention.  Strange and baffling!

This is for the absolute best, really.

g under p

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Here is an article (translated obviously) that was put up to early on russian state media, and removed -- showing Putins view of how things would go:

A new world is being born before our eyes. Russia's military operation in Ukraine has opened a new era — and in three dimensions at once. And of course, in the fourth, domestic. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system — but we should talk about this separately a little later.

Russia is restoring its unity — the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe of our history, its unnatural dislocation, has been overcome. Yes, at a great price, yes, through the tragic events of the civil war, because now brothers are still shooting at each other, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies— but there will be no more Ukraine as anti-Russia. Russian Russian is restoring its historical completeness by bringing the Russian world, the Russian people together — in all its totality of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had refused this, allowed the temporary division to take hold for centuries, we would not only have betrayed the memory of our ancestors, but would also have been cursed by our descendants for allowing the disintegration of the Russian land.

Vladimir Putin has assumed — without a drop of exaggeration - historical responsibility, deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian issue to future generations. After all, the need to solve it would always remain the main problem for Russia — for two key reasons. And the issue of national security, that is, the creation of an anti-Russia from Ukraine and an outpost to pressure the West on us, is only the second most important among them.

The first would always be the complex of a divided people, the complex of national humiliation — when the Russian house first lost part of its foundation (Kiev), and then had to accept the existence of two states, not one, but two peoples. That is, either to abandon your history, agreeing with the crazy versions that "only Ukraine is the real Russia", or to gnash your teeth powerlessly, remembering the times when "we lost Ukraine". Russian Russians would be getting more and more difficult to return Ukraine, that is, to turn it back to Russia, with every decade — recoding, de-russification of Russians and setting up against Russian Little Russians-Ukrainians, would gain momentum. And if the full geopolitical and military control of the West over Ukraine were consolidated, its return to Russia would become completely impossible — it would have to fight with the Atlantic bloc for it.

Now there is no such problem - Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be rebuilt, re-established and returned to its natural state of a part of the Russian world. In what borders, in what form will the union with Russia be consolidated (through the CSTO and the Eurasian Union or the Union State of Russia and Belarus)? This will be decided after the end is put in the history of Ukraine as anti-Russia. In any case, the period of the split of the Russian people is coming to an end.

And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era - it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting in geopolitical terms as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage — the West sees Russia returning to its historical borders in Europe. And he loudly resents this, although deep down I have to admit to myself that it could not have been any other way.

Did anyone in the old European capitals, in Paris and Berlin, seriously believe that Moscow would abandon Kiev? That the Russians will forever be a divided people? And at the same time when Europe is uniting, when the German and French elites are trying to seize control of European integration from the Anglo-Saxons and assemble a united Europe? Forgetting that the unification of Europe became possible only thanks to the unification of Germany, which happened by the Russian good (albeit not very smart) will. To take a swing after that also at the Russian lands is not even the height of ingratitude, but of geopolitical stupidity. The West as a whole, and even more so Europe individually, did not have the strength to keep in its sphere of influence, and even more so to take Ukraine for itself. To not understand this, you had to be just geopolitical fools.

More precisely, there was only one option: to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it didn't work should have become clear twenty years ago. And already fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even a deaf person could hear that Russia was returning.

Deputy Head of the Presidential Administration of the Russian Federation - Press Secretary of the President of the Russian Federation Dmitry Peskov - RIA

Now the West is trying to punish Russia for having returned, for not justifying its plans to profit at its expense, not allowing it to expand the Western space to the east. In an effort to punish us, the West thinks that relations with it are of vital importance to us. But this has not been the case for a long time — the world has changed, and this is well understood not only by Europeans, but also by the Anglo-Saxons who rule the West. No Western pressure on Russia will lead to anything. Losses from the escalation of confrontation will be on both sides, but Russia is ready for them morally and geopolitically. But for the West itself, increasing the degree of confrontation carries huge costs — and the main ones are not economic at all.

Europe, as part of the West, wanted autonomy — the German project of European integration does not make strategic sense while maintaining Anglo-Saxon ideological, military and geopolitical control over the Old World. And it cannot be successful, because the Anglo-Saxons need a controlled Europe. But Europe also needs autonomy for another reason — in case the United States moves to self-isolation (as a result of increasing internal conflicts and contradictions) or focuses on the Pacific region, where the geopolitical center of gravity is moving.

But the confrontation with Russia, into which the Anglo-Saxons are dragging Europe, deprives Europeans of even a chance of independence — not to mention the fact that they are trying to impose a break with China on Europe in the same way. If Atlantists are now happy that the "Russian threat" will unite the Western bloc, then Berlin and Paris cannot but understand that, having lost hope for autonomy, the European project will simply collapse in the medium term. That is why independent-minded Europeans are now completely uninterested in building a new iron curtain on their eastern borders - realizing that it will turn into a pen specifically for Europe. Whose century (more precisely, half a millennium) of global leadership is over anyway — but various options for its future are still possible.

Because the construction of a new world order — and this is the third dimension of current events - is accelerating, and its contours are becoming clearer through the spreading veil of globalization in Anglo-Saxon. The multipolar world has finally become a reality — the operation in Ukraine is not able to rally anyone against Russia except the West. Because the rest of the world sees and understands perfectly well - this is a conflict between Russia and the West, this is a response to the geopolitical expansion of the Atlantists, this is Russia's return of its historical space and its place in the world.

China and India, Latin America and Africa, the Islamic world and Southeast Asia - no one believes that the West leads the world order and even more so sets the rules of the game. Russia has not just challenged the West - it has shown that the era of Western global domination can be considered completely and finally over. The new world will be built by all civilizations and centers of forces, naturally, together with the West (united or not) — but not on its terms and not according to its rules.

Wow, Putin is on a whole other level of madness in trying to make Russia an equal world power through brute military force. THIS, will not end well for this maniac while innocent people are dying.

Peace ✌️ 

Meltdown99

https://twitter.com/jonkarl/status/1498305596709163014?s=21

Good to see Vlad social distancing.

mrussel1

The Juggler said:

mrussel1 said:

So the question may soon become.. What escape hatch will the West give Putin to withdraw and save face?   This has to be a topic of conversation between Ukraine, US, Britain, Germany, etc.  This cannot be an unconditional surrender against Putin.  Let him keep the two breakaways?  Let him keep one?  He isn't going to disarm, obviously.  Nor will his demand for Ukraine's military to overtake the political apparatus happen either. 

May be too early to think about it, but I am.  The war isn't going well for them and the economic sanctions are hitting fast. I can't believe they are mostly cutoff from SWIFT.  I thought this would take much longer.  Sberbank is going to fail.  Market was closed today to protect it.  They are literally an international pariah. 

Do you think giving him the two breakaways would work? I was thinking about that this morning. I bet Putin would claim that as a win but it's obviously not what he originally wanted. 

I don't know, honestly.  Depends on how desperate he is.  If he is cornered, he could lash out and intensify the war, or he might want to cut his losses and say all he ever wanted was protection on the western flank.  Of course his message that SC posted never says that BS line either.  It's much more imperialistic.  

Unless we think there will be a coup and he is deposed, there has to be an exit ramp for Putin.  Because all the power (read: money) is concentrated into the oligarchs who are close to Putin, and who would be financially and legally devastated if he was deposed, I think a coup is unlikely.  So then what's the next option for Ukraine/West?

HughFreakingDillon

Meltdown99 said:

https://twitter.com/jonkarl/status/1498305596709163014?s=21

Good to see Vlad social distancing.

what is with this guy and his gigantic tables?

Halifax2TheMax

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Here is an article (translated obviously) that was put up to early on russian state media, and removed -- showing Putins view of how things would go:

A new world is being born before our eyes. Russia's military operation in Ukraine has opened a new era — and in three dimensions at once. And of course, in the fourth, domestic. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system — but we should talk about this separately a little later.

Russia is restoring its unity — the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe of our history, its unnatural dislocation, has been overcome. Yes, at a great price, yes, through the tragic events of the civil war, because now brothers are still shooting at each other, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies— but there will be no more Ukraine as anti-Russia. Russian Russian is restoring its historical completeness by bringing the Russian world, the Russian people together — in all its totality of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had refused this, allowed the temporary division to take hold for centuries, we would not only have betrayed the memory of our ancestors, but would also have been cursed by our descendants for allowing the disintegration of the Russian land.

Vladimir Putin has assumed — without a drop of exaggeration - historical responsibility, deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian issue to future generations. After all, the need to solve it would always remain the main problem for Russia — for two key reasons. And the issue of national security, that is, the creation of an anti-Russia from Ukraine and an outpost to pressure the West on us, is only the second most important among them.

The first would always be the complex of a divided people, the complex of national humiliation — when the Russian house first lost part of its foundation (Kiev), and then had to accept the existence of two states, not one, but two peoples. That is, either to abandon your history, agreeing with the crazy versions that "only Ukraine is the real Russia", or to gnash your teeth powerlessly, remembering the times when "we lost Ukraine". Russian Russians would be getting more and more difficult to return Ukraine, that is, to turn it back to Russia, with every decade — recoding, de-russification of Russians and setting up against Russian Little Russians-Ukrainians, would gain momentum. And if the full geopolitical and military control of the West over Ukraine were consolidated, its return to Russia would become completely impossible — it would have to fight with the Atlantic bloc for it.

Now there is no such problem - Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be rebuilt, re-established and returned to its natural state of a part of the Russian world. In what borders, in what form will the union with Russia be consolidated (through the CSTO and the Eurasian Union or the Union State of Russia and Belarus)? This will be decided after the end is put in the history of Ukraine as anti-Russia. In any case, the period of the split of the Russian people is coming to an end.

And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era - it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting in geopolitical terms as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage — the West sees Russia returning to its historical borders in Europe. And he loudly resents this, although deep down I have to admit to myself that it could not have been any other way.

Did anyone in the old European capitals, in Paris and Berlin, seriously believe that Moscow would abandon Kiev? That the Russians will forever be a divided people? And at the same time when Europe is uniting, when the German and French elites are trying to seize control of European integration from the Anglo-Saxons and assemble a united Europe? Forgetting that the unification of Europe became possible only thanks to the unification of Germany, which happened by the Russian good (albeit not very smart) will. To take a swing after that also at the Russian lands is not even the height of ingratitude, but of geopolitical stupidity. The West as a whole, and even more so Europe individually, did not have the strength to keep in its sphere of influence, and even more so to take Ukraine for itself. To not understand this, you had to be just geopolitical fools.

More precisely, there was only one option: to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it didn't work should have become clear twenty years ago. And already fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even a deaf person could hear that Russia was returning.

Deputy Head of the Presidential Administration of the Russian Federation - Press Secretary of the President of the Russian Federation Dmitry Peskov - RIA

Now the West is trying to punish Russia for having returned, for not justifying its plans to profit at its expense, not allowing it to expand the Western space to the east. In an effort to punish us, the West thinks that relations with it are of vital importance to us. But this has not been the case for a long time — the world has changed, and this is well understood not only by Europeans, but also by the Anglo-Saxons who rule the West. No Western pressure on Russia will lead to anything. Losses from the escalation of confrontation will be on both sides, but Russia is ready for them morally and geopolitically. But for the West itself, increasing the degree of confrontation carries huge costs — and the main ones are not economic at all.

Europe, as part of the West, wanted autonomy — the German project of European integration does not make strategic sense while maintaining Anglo-Saxon ideological, military and geopolitical control over the Old World. And it cannot be successful, because the Anglo-Saxons need a controlled Europe. But Europe also needs autonomy for another reason — in case the United States moves to self-isolation (as a result of increasing internal conflicts and contradictions) or focuses on the Pacific region, where the geopolitical center of gravity is moving.

But the confrontation with Russia, into which the Anglo-Saxons are dragging Europe, deprives Europeans of even a chance of independence — not to mention the fact that they are trying to impose a break with China on Europe in the same way. If Atlantists are now happy that the "Russian threat" will unite the Western bloc, then Berlin and Paris cannot but understand that, having lost hope for autonomy, the European project will simply collapse in the medium term. That is why independent-minded Europeans are now completely uninterested in building a new iron curtain on their eastern borders - realizing that it will turn into a pen specifically for Europe. Whose century (more precisely, half a millennium) of global leadership is over anyway — but various options for its future are still possible.

Because the construction of a new world order — and this is the third dimension of current events - is accelerating, and its contours are becoming clearer through the spreading veil of globalization in Anglo-Saxon. The multipolar world has finally become a reality — the operation in Ukraine is not able to rally anyone against Russia except the West. Because the rest of the world sees and understands perfectly well - this is a conflict between Russia and the West, this is a response to the geopolitical expansion of the Atlantists, this is Russia's return of its historical space and its place in the world.

China and India, Latin America and Africa, the Islamic world and Southeast Asia - no one believes that the West leads the world order and even more so sets the rules of the game. Russia has not just challenged the West - it has shown that the era of Western global domination can be considered completely and finally over. The new world will be built by all civilizations and centers of forces, naturally, together with the West (united or not) — but not on its terms and not according to its rules.

Did POOTWH write this? Sounds like it in all its brilliant brilliance of brilliancy. Also sounds as if a certain poster who pops in about every six months or so would agree with the last paragraph. Sad.

oftenreading

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

So the question may soon become.. What escape hatch will the West give Putin to withdraw and save face?   This has to be a topic of conversation between Ukraine, US, Britain, Germany, etc.  This cannot be an unconditional surrender against Putin.  Let him keep the two breakaways?  Let him keep one?  He isn't going to disarm, obviously.  Nor will his demand for Ukraine's military to overtake the political apparatus happen either. 

May be too early to think about it, but I am.  The war isn't going well for them and the economic sanctions are hitting fast. I can't believe they are mostly cutoff from SWIFT.  I thought this would take much longer.  Sberbank is going to fail.  Market was closed today to protect it.  They are literally an international pariah. 

I've heard others suggest the same thing, that the West needs to give Putin a way to save face.  I understand that argument and, considering his power and instability of mind, it's probably for the best.  But a better solution might be for him to be deposed or eliminated in some way by his own people.  He has brought total shame to his people and country.  Much of the world is united against him.  But of course, because of that, the question becomes, how desperate and unstable has he become.

As a side note, I'm a little surprised how relative little traction this event has been gained here on AMT.  The war in Ukraine is the biggest current event to happen in the world in many years and yet only a handful of people post here while other, less pressing issues seem to get equal or greater attention.  Strange and baffling!

Reading but not posting. This is not my area of expertise. 

Spiritual_Chaos

mrussel1 said:

The Juggler said:

mrussel1 said:

So the question may soon become.. What escape hatch will the West give Putin to withdraw and save face?   This has to be a topic of conversation between Ukraine, US, Britain, Germany, etc.  This cannot be an unconditional surrender against Putin.  Let him keep the two breakaways?  Let him keep one?  He isn't going to disarm, obviously.  Nor will his demand for Ukraine's military to overtake the political apparatus happen either. 

May be too early to think about it, but I am.  The war isn't going well for them and the economic sanctions are hitting fast. I can't believe they are mostly cutoff from SWIFT.  I thought this would take much longer.  Sberbank is going to fail.  Market was closed today to protect it.  They are literally an international pariah. 

Do you think giving him the two breakaways would work? I was thinking about that this morning. I bet Putin would claim that as a win but it's obviously not what he originally wanted. 

I don't know, honestly.  Depends on how desperate he is.  If he is cornered, he could lash out and intensify the war, or he might want to cut his losses and say all he ever wanted was protection on the western flank.  Of course his message that SC posted never says that BS line either.  It's much more imperialistic.  

Unless we think there will be a coup and he is deposed, there has to be an exit ramp for Putin.  Because all the power (read: money) is concentrated into the oligarchs who are close to Putin, and who would be financially and legally devastated if he was deposed, I think a coup is unlikely.  So then what's the next option for Ukraine/West?

I mean... he/Russia has swung back and forth more than Trump over figuring out a defense. The Defense has been marely freeing two isolated areas. Then freeing the whole of Ukraine from nenoazis. From drugusers. From Ukraine wanting to commit genocide. To now in the UN saying Ukraine was on the way to develop nukes. If I understood the russian delegate correctly. 

The truth is - Putin is 70 year old and want's his legacy to be that he was the one who restored the Russian empire by taking back, at least, Ukraine. 

brianlux

The Juggler said:

mrussel1 said:

So the question may soon become.. What escape hatch will the West give Putin to withdraw and save face?   This has to be a topic of conversation between Ukraine, US, Britain, Germany, etc.  This cannot be an unconditional surrender against Putin.  Let him keep the two breakaways?  Let him keep one?  He isn't going to disarm, obviously.  Nor will his demand for Ukraine's military to overtake the political apparatus happen either. 

May be too early to think about it, but I am.  The war isn't going well for them and the economic sanctions are hitting fast. I can't believe they are mostly cutoff from SWIFT.  I thought this would take much longer.  Sberbank is going to fail.  Market was closed today to protect it.  They are literally an international pariah. 

Do you think giving him the two breakaways would work? I was thinking about that this morning. I bet Putin would claim that as a win but it's obviously not what he originally wanted. 

I really don't know.  I suppose if those regions really do want to be part of Russia it would be hard to argue with that.  But how strongly do they want to separate?  I honestly don't know.

Jearlpam0925 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

So the question may soon become.. What escape hatch will the West give Putin to withdraw and save face?   This has to be a topic of conversation between Ukraine, US, Britain, Germany, etc.  This cannot be an unconditional surrender against Putin.  Let him keep the two breakaways?  Let him keep one?  He isn't going to disarm, obviously.  Nor will his demand for Ukraine's military to overtake the political apparatus happen either. 

May be too early to think about it, but I am.  The war isn't going well for them and the economic sanctions are hitting fast. I can't believe they are mostly cutoff from SWIFT.  I thought this would take much longer.  Sberbank is going to fail.  Market was closed today to protect it.  They are literally an international pariah. 

I've heard others suggest the same thing, that the West needs to give Putin a way to save face.  I understand that argument and, considering his power and instability of mind, it's probably for the best.  But a better solution might be for him to be deposed or eliminated in some way by his own people.  He has brought total shame to his people and country.  Much of the world is united against him.  But of course, because of that, the question becomes, how desperate and unstable has he become.

As a side note, I'm a little surprised how relative little traction this event has been gained here on AMT.  The war in Ukraine is the biggest current event to happen in the world in many years and yet only a handful of people post here while other, less pressing issues seem to get equal or greater attention.  Strange and baffling!

This is for the absolute best, really.

Why is that?  I don't understand this response.

dankind

HughFreakingDillon said:

Meltdown99 said:

https://twitter.com/jonkarl/status/1498305596709163014?s=21

Good to see Vlad social distancing.

what is with this guy and his gigantic tables?

mrussel1

Halifax2TheMax said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Here is an article (translated obviously) that was put up to early on russian state media, and removed -- showing Putins view of how things would go:

A new world is being born before our eyes. Russia's military operation in Ukraine has opened a new era — and in three dimensions at once. And of course, in the fourth, domestic. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system — but we should talk about this separately a little later.

Russia is restoring its unity — the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe of our history, its unnatural dislocation, has been overcome. Yes, at a great price, yes, through the tragic events of the civil war, because now brothers are still shooting at each other, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies— but there will be no more Ukraine as anti-Russia. Russian Russian is restoring its historical completeness by bringing the Russian world, the Russian people together — in all its totality of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had refused this, allowed the temporary division to take hold for centuries, we would not only have betrayed the memory of our ancestors, but would also have been cursed by our descendants for allowing the disintegration of the Russian land.

Vladimir Putin has assumed — without a drop of exaggeration - historical responsibility, deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian issue to future generations. After all, the need to solve it would always remain the main problem for Russia — for two key reasons. And the issue of national security, that is, the creation of an anti-Russia from Ukraine and an outpost to pressure the West on us, is only the second most important among them.

The first would always be the complex of a divided people, the complex of national humiliation — when the Russian house first lost part of its foundation (Kiev), and then had to accept the existence of two states, not one, but two peoples. That is, either to abandon your history, agreeing with the crazy versions that "only Ukraine is the real Russia", or to gnash your teeth powerlessly, remembering the times when "we lost Ukraine". Russian Russians would be getting more and more difficult to return Ukraine, that is, to turn it back to Russia, with every decade — recoding, de-russification of Russians and setting up against Russian Little Russians-Ukrainians, would gain momentum. And if the full geopolitical and military control of the West over Ukraine were consolidated, its return to Russia would become completely impossible — it would have to fight with the Atlantic bloc for it.

Now there is no such problem - Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be rebuilt, re-established and returned to its natural state of a part of the Russian world. In what borders, in what form will the union with Russia be consolidated (through the CSTO and the Eurasian Union or the Union State of Russia and Belarus)? This will be decided after the end is put in the history of Ukraine as anti-Russia. In any case, the period of the split of the Russian people is coming to an end.

And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era - it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting in geopolitical terms as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage — the West sees Russia returning to its historical borders in Europe. And he loudly resents this, although deep down I have to admit to myself that it could not have been any other way.

Did anyone in the old European capitals, in Paris and Berlin, seriously believe that Moscow would abandon Kiev? That the Russians will forever be a divided people? And at the same time when Europe is uniting, when the German and French elites are trying to seize control of European integration from the Anglo-Saxons and assemble a united Europe? Forgetting that the unification of Europe became possible only thanks to the unification of Germany, which happened by the Russian good (albeit not very smart) will. To take a swing after that also at the Russian lands is not even the height of ingratitude, but of geopolitical stupidity. The West as a whole, and even more so Europe individually, did not have the strength to keep in its sphere of influence, and even more so to take Ukraine for itself. To not understand this, you had to be just geopolitical fools.

More precisely, there was only one option: to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it didn't work should have become clear twenty years ago. And already fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even a deaf person could hear that Russia was returning.

Deputy Head of the Presidential Administration of the Russian Federation - Press Secretary of the President of the Russian Federation Dmitry Peskov - RIA

Now the West is trying to punish Russia for having returned, for not justifying its plans to profit at its expense, not allowing it to expand the Western space to the east. In an effort to punish us, the West thinks that relations with it are of vital importance to us. But this has not been the case for a long time — the world has changed, and this is well understood not only by Europeans, but also by the Anglo-Saxons who rule the West. No Western pressure on Russia will lead to anything. Losses from the escalation of confrontation will be on both sides, but Russia is ready for them morally and geopolitically. But for the West itself, increasing the degree of confrontation carries huge costs — and the main ones are not economic at all.

Europe, as part of the West, wanted autonomy — the German project of European integration does not make strategic sense while maintaining Anglo-Saxon ideological, military and geopolitical control over the Old World. And it cannot be successful, because the Anglo-Saxons need a controlled Europe. But Europe also needs autonomy for another reason — in case the United States moves to self-isolation (as a result of increasing internal conflicts and contradictions) or focuses on the Pacific region, where the geopolitical center of gravity is moving.

But the confrontation with Russia, into which the Anglo-Saxons are dragging Europe, deprives Europeans of even a chance of independence — not to mention the fact that they are trying to impose a break with China on Europe in the same way. If Atlantists are now happy that the "Russian threat" will unite the Western bloc, then Berlin and Paris cannot but understand that, having lost hope for autonomy, the European project will simply collapse in the medium term. That is why independent-minded Europeans are now completely uninterested in building a new iron curtain on their eastern borders - realizing that it will turn into a pen specifically for Europe. Whose century (more precisely, half a millennium) of global leadership is over anyway — but various options for its future are still possible.

Because the construction of a new world order — and this is the third dimension of current events - is accelerating, and its contours are becoming clearer through the spreading veil of globalization in Anglo-Saxon. The multipolar world has finally become a reality — the operation in Ukraine is not able to rally anyone against Russia except the West. Because the rest of the world sees and understands perfectly well - this is a conflict between Russia and the West, this is a response to the geopolitical expansion of the Atlantists, this is Russia's return of its historical space and its place in the world.

China and India, Latin America and Africa, the Islamic world and Southeast Asia - no one believes that the West leads the world order and even more so sets the rules of the game. Russia has not just challenged the West - it has shown that the era of Western global domination can be considered completely and finally over. The new world will be built by all civilizations and centers of forces, naturally, together with the West (united or not) — but not on its terms and not according to its rules.

Did POOTWH write this? Sounds like it in all its brilliant brilliance of brilliancy. Also sounds as if a certain poster who pops in about every six months or so would agree with the last paragraph. Sad.

It's a translation issue.  I found it really interesting to see how he is viewing the world, when talking to the Russian people.  He's obviously trying to rally them to support the war, and unify the Soviets again.  Notice how he calls German unification stupid?  But again, he doesn't make any promises.  Is this a Russian cultural thing that you follow the order?  Remember that Russia has zero experience with democracy.  I mean I guess you have the Yeltsin years, but that was a disaster for them because it was right after the breaking of the USSR, as they tried to turn the economy capitalistic.

Halifax2TheMax

mrussel1 said:

@Spiritual_Chaos Thanks for posting that.  It was a fascinating read.  It's a mix of Putin's thinking with propaganda, so it was interesting.  I can't say how a normal Russian will read that.  But it's interesting that Putin made no promises of economic prosperity from this clash with the Anglo Saxons and the West.  It was purely about reuniting empire.  

One thing that I really took away early, was that he was focused on reuniting the ancient people of eastern Europe.  You could call them Rus or, go up one level and you have Lech, Rus and Czech, the supposed three brothers of legend that settled eastern Europe.  These are the Slavs.  So if Putin is bent on reuniting his people, where does it stop?  Poland, Czech, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia and even Serbia are rooted in these tribes.  Putin's ambition is limitless. 

Its not limitless unless putin on the ritz gets greedy after reconstituting the old Soviet Union. Would that include what was once East Germany? Probably not as Germany is a NATO ally. Poland? Czech? Or any current NATO countries. I doubt it but putin on the ritz isn't very stable these days.

Meltdown99

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

The Juggler said:

mrussel1 said:

So the question may soon become.. What escape hatch will the West give Putin to withdraw and save face?   This has to be a topic of conversation between Ukraine, US, Britain, Germany, etc.  This cannot be an unconditional surrender against Putin.  Let him keep the two breakaways?  Let him keep one?  He isn't going to disarm, obviously.  Nor will his demand for Ukraine's military to overtake the political apparatus happen either. 

May be too early to think about it, but I am.  The war isn't going well for them and the economic sanctions are hitting fast. I can't believe they are mostly cutoff from SWIFT.  I thought this would take much longer.  Sberbank is going to fail.  Market was closed today to protect it.  They are literally an international pariah. 

Do you think giving him the two breakaways would work? I was thinking about that this morning. I bet Putin would claim that as a win but it's obviously not what he originally wanted. 

I don't know, honestly.  Depends on how desperate he is.  If he is cornered, he could lash out and intensify the war, or he might want to cut his losses and say all he ever wanted was protection on the western flank.  Of course his message that SC posted never says that BS line either.  It's much more imperialistic.  

Unless we think there will be a coup and he is deposed, there has to be an exit ramp for Putin.  Because all the power (read: money) is concentrated into the oligarchs who are close to Putin, and who would be financially and legally devastated if he was deposed, I think a coup is unlikely.  So then what's the next option for Ukraine/West?

I mean... he/Russia has swung back and forth more than Trump over figuring out a defense. The Defense has been marely freeing two isolated areas. Then freeing the whole of Ukraine from nenoazis. From drugusers. From Ukraine wanting to commit genocide. To now in the UN saying Ukraine was on the way to develop nukes. If I understood the russian delegate correctly. 

The truth is - Putin is 70 year old and want's his legacy to be that he was the one who restored the Russian empire by taking back, at least, Ukraine. 

Is there any chance his inner circle will take him out?  

Spiritual_Chaos

brianlux said:

I really don't know.  I suppose if those regions really do want to be part of Russia it would be hard to argue with that.  But how strongly do they want to separate?  I honestly don't know.

Ukraine is a democracy. By that, shouldn't that separation be a democratic process? Do you think China should come in and save California from being a part of the US, with their being a movement in California to be freed from the shackles of the US?

Also, people in those areas were kidnapped and forced to fight against other Ukrainian citizens. I doubt that would be needed if them leaving Ukraine was so natural and overwhelming and obvious.

The Juggler

dankind said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Meltdown99 said:

https://twitter.com/jonkarl/status/1498305596709163014?s=21

Good to see Vlad social distancing.

what is with this guy and his gigantic tables?

Hahaha....first thing I thought of too. 

Spiritual_Chaos

dankind said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Meltdown99 said:

https://twitter.com/jonkarl/status/1498305596709163014?s=21

Good to see Vlad social distancing.

what is with this guy and his gigantic tables?

Haha. I posted a picture from that scene in a group chat with some friends today. On the same subject.

MICHAEL IS RETURNING THIS YEAR!

brianlux

Spiritual_Chaos said:

brianlux said:

I really don't know.  I suppose if those regions really do want to be part of Russia it would be hard to argue with that.  But how strongly do they want to separate?  I honestly don't know.

Ukraine is a democracy. By that, shouldn't that separation be a democratic process? Do you think China should come in and save California from being a part of the US, with their being a movement in California to be freed from the shackles of the US?

Also, people in those areas were kidnapped and forced to fight against other Ukrainian citizens. I doubt that would be needed if them leaving Ukraine was so natural and overwhelming and obvious.

My response would be obviously not. 

(But you must be thinking about Texas, not California, right?)

Spiritual_Chaos

Meltdown99 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

The Juggler said:

mrussel1 said:

So the question may soon become.. What escape hatch will the West give Putin to withdraw and save face?   This has to be a topic of conversation between Ukraine, US, Britain, Germany, etc.  This cannot be an unconditional surrender against Putin.  Let him keep the two breakaways?  Let him keep one?  He isn't going to disarm, obviously.  Nor will his demand for Ukraine's military to overtake the political apparatus happen either. 

May be too early to think about it, but I am.  The war isn't going well for them and the economic sanctions are hitting fast. I can't believe they are mostly cutoff from SWIFT.  I thought this would take much longer.  Sberbank is going to fail.  Market was closed today to protect it.  They are literally an international pariah. 

Do you think giving him the two breakaways would work? I was thinking about that this morning. I bet Putin would claim that as a win but it's obviously not what he originally wanted. 

I don't know, honestly.  Depends on how desperate he is.  If he is cornered, he could lash out and intensify the war, or he might want to cut his losses and say all he ever wanted was protection on the western flank.  Of course his message that SC posted never says that BS line either.  It's much more imperialistic.  

Unless we think there will be a coup and he is deposed, there has to be an exit ramp for Putin.  Because all the power (read: money) is concentrated into the oligarchs who are close to Putin, and who would be financially and legally devastated if he was deposed, I think a coup is unlikely.  So then what's the next option for Ukraine/West?

I mean... he/Russia has swung back and forth more than Trump over figuring out a defense. The Defense has been marely freeing two isolated areas. Then freeing the whole of Ukraine from nenoazis. From drugusers. From Ukraine wanting to commit genocide. To now in the UN saying Ukraine was on the way to develop nukes. If I understood the russian delegate correctly. 

The truth is - Putin is 70 year old and want's his legacy to be that he was the one who restored the Russian empire by taking back, at least, Ukraine. 

Is there any chance his inner circle will take him out?  

Maybe Trump will. 

Meltdown99

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Meltdown99 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

The Juggler said:

mrussel1 said:

So the question may soon become.. What escape hatch will the West give Putin to withdraw and save face?   This has to be a topic of conversation between Ukraine, US, Britain, Germany, etc.  This cannot be an unconditional surrender against Putin.  Let him keep the two breakaways?  Let him keep one?  He isn't going to disarm, obviously.  Nor will his demand for Ukraine's military to overtake the political apparatus happen either. 

May be too early to think about it, but I am.  The war isn't going well for them and the economic sanctions are hitting fast. I can't believe they are mostly cutoff from SWIFT.  I thought this would take much longer.  Sberbank is going to fail.  Market was closed today to protect it.  They are literally an international pariah. 

Do you think giving him the two breakaways would work? I was thinking about that this morning. I bet Putin would claim that as a win but it's obviously not what he originally wanted. 

I don't know, honestly.  Depends on how desperate he is.  If he is cornered, he could lash out and intensify the war, or he might want to cut his losses and say all he ever wanted was protection on the western flank.  Of course his message that SC posted never says that BS line either.  It's much more imperialistic.  

Unless we think there will be a coup and he is deposed, there has to be an exit ramp for Putin.  Because all the power (read: money) is concentrated into the oligarchs who are close to Putin, and who would be financially and legally devastated if he was deposed, I think a coup is unlikely.  So then what's the next option for Ukraine/West?

I mean... he/Russia has swung back and forth more than Trump over figuring out a defense. The Defense has been marely freeing two isolated areas. Then freeing the whole of Ukraine from nenoazis. From drugusers. From Ukraine wanting to commit genocide. To now in the UN saying Ukraine was on the way to develop nukes. If I understood the russian delegate correctly. 

The truth is - Putin is 70 year old and want's his legacy to be that he was the one who restored the Russian empire by taking back, at least, Ukraine. 

Is there any chance his inner circle will take him out?  

Maybe Trump will. 

Lmfao.