I know it seems like Bono can be a bit much, but really he hasn't been that for about 15 years or so.
Yeah, for sure. Bono's overblown ego can get to me but I always seem to come around to appreciating him as a performer and for speaking out about important issues. The whole "mega-star as spokesperson" thing has it's problems, but I always end up giving Bono the thumbs up anyway.
"Don't give in to the lies. Don't give in to the fear. Hold on to the truth. And to hope."
Ed too has gone through this. Back on the 90s he was slagging off the pop music of the day saying it was trash and meaningless. Nowadays pop music and hip hop specifically is what rock was in the 60s. It’s what the youth of today listen to and IS pop music now. Now you have Ed and Dave Grohl giving props to Ed Sheehan, Niall and Billie Eilish. And no doubt his kids are listening to that music as well. At a certain point you get over that elitist attitude and just like what you like. If someone gives you crap about listening to Taylor or Kelly Clarkson it’s their own loss, that’s some good music. I think the 90s were harmful in that respect. Amazing music, amazing to be a kid during it, but the whole “you suck as a musician and are a traitor and failure as a human if you work with corporations at all”, seeped into all our bloodstream and ultimately that’s harmful. Pop music isn’t some evil entity, and indie music isn’t perfect either. I think that whole black and white thinking is basic and boring, personally. I’d rather live in the grey. That whole us versus them idea is harmful. If you can’t enjoy Taylor because it’s not deemed “cool”, that says more about the crowd you hang with, than it does the music
Those artists you listed aren't manufactured bubble gum pop music though. There is plenty of that on Z100 still is most likely what they meant.
I'm still not sure what to think of Doja Cat, lol.
But is manufactured bubble gum pop inherently bad? I think it takes way more talent to write a pop hit that goes to number one and is catchy, than writing some obscure tune only 5 people know about, to be honest.
And people back in the 90's were saying the same thing. You had, while the grunge thing and 'real rock" was going on, you had pop music, alot of which is now considered classic, and pop music fans back then were saying, "check it out, dude".
Im sort of over it, personally. I went through that phase, and I pointed out Ed did too. But ultimately if you are an artist you want your music heard or seen by as many people as possible. OP is correct, Taylor is a legend, but the idea she is obsessed with fame and celebrity is absurd. To my eyes, seems like she'd rather spend time alone with her boyfriend and cats than deal with fame. Did you check out Miss Americana her Netflix doc from a few years back. The idea she's some dumb as rocks fame obsessed idiot is pretty silly. Look at how the narrative of Britney has morphed. In 1999, every rock fan hated her and said her music and her style of music was the downfall of Western Culture and "real art". Now she's seen as a feminist icon, and someone way more complex than we all gave her credit for. You dont think the same is also true for alot of bubblegum pop artists? Its elitist to think only indie music is sacred. We all went through that phase. Glad to see theres a thread about how we have moved beyond that.
Doja has a few good songs, I dont understand the whole Megan Thee Stallion, Cardi B scene myself, so I get it. But this whole idea that we were fed in the 90's was crap, honestly. And it stunted my music appreciation in a way. I could have been enjoying lots of amazing music back then, not solely grunge bands on obscure labels with 2 fans total. Sub Pop is great and legendary, but Warner Bros and major labels put out quality stuff too.
And I beg to differ everyone I named, has been slagged off on this board and in wider culture as being vapid silly teeny popper crap, Taylor, Ed Sheeran, Kelly Clarkson, Niall (he was part of One Direction for gods sake!) etc... Those arent small time artists, folks. Those are the top .1 percent of artists Id say. Ed Sheeran and Taylor ALONE are the music industry, frankly.
I dont know I just sort of grew out of the "hey, she's signed to Universal Records so she's crap and I only listen to 7 inch vinyl prints of bands signed to some micro label in god knows where". Thats stuff we said in middle school, and as teens. I left that behind decades ago.
Actually as the OP I will say yes I have seen miss Americana and her folklore special. But as much as she says she whas changed I don’t think I but it. I saw her once in concert and I hated how she seemed to bask in the applause. And honestly half of miss americana is about her upset that she didn’t get nominated for reputation and wanted to get nominated and glorified again as she was making lover. Still love her music but don’t like that part of her. The funny thing is I think he best work is folklore and evermore where she did really seem to just relax and make music for the sake of making music. Will be interesting to see where she goes from here. I am loving the Taylor’s version of past albums lots of good vault stuff.
I am going to get ROASTED for saying this but I do see TS as kind of a modern day beetles. She has a ton of pop songs that have been huge hits and if that’s all you have heard it’s easy to dismiss her music. BUT if you dig deeper and listen to all the albums, there is a ton of amazing and diverse music. Rock, country, pop etc. she is not a one trick pony and like I said in the beginning an annoyingly good song writer. And the fact that her 8th and 9th albums are arguably her best I think is unmatched. Look at PJs 8h and 9th compared to earlier works. Some good stuff but not in the same stratosphere as their first 4-5 albums.
Ed too has gone through this. Back on the 90s he was slagging off the pop music of the day saying it was trash and meaningless. Nowadays pop music and hip hop specifically is what rock was in the 60s. It’s what the youth of today listen to and IS pop music now. Now you have Ed and Dave Grohl giving props to Ed Sheehan, Niall and Billie Eilish. And no doubt his kids are listening to that music as well. At a certain point you get over that elitist attitude and just like what you like. If someone gives you crap about listening to Taylor or Kelly Clarkson it’s their own loss, that’s some good music. I think the 90s were harmful in that respect. Amazing music, amazing to be a kid during it, but the whole “you suck as a musician and are a traitor and failure as a human if you work with corporations at all”, seeped into all our bloodstream and ultimately that’s harmful. Pop music isn’t some evil entity, and indie music isn’t perfect either. I think that whole black and white thinking is basic and boring, personally. I’d rather live in the grey. That whole us versus them idea is harmful. If you can’t enjoy Taylor because it’s not deemed “cool”, that says more about the crowd you hang with, than it does the music
Those artists you listed aren't manufactured bubble gum pop music though. There is plenty of that on Z100 still is most likely what they meant.
I'm still not sure what to think of Doja Cat, lol.
But is manufactured bubble gum pop inherently bad? I think it takes way more talent to write a pop hit that goes to number one and is catchy, than writing some obscure tune only 5 people know about, to be honest.
And people back in the 90's were saying the same thing. You had, while the grunge thing and 'real rock" was going on, you had pop music, alot of which is now considered classic, and pop music fans back then were saying, "check it out, dude".
Im sort of over it, personally. I went through that phase, and I pointed out Ed did too. But ultimately if you are an artist you want your music heard or seen by as many people as possible. OP is correct, Taylor is a legend, but the idea she is obsessed with fame and celebrity is absurd. To my eyes, seems like she'd rather spend time alone with her boyfriend and cats than deal with fame. Did you check out Miss Americana her Netflix doc from a few years back. The idea she's some dumb as rocks fame obsessed idiot is pretty silly. Look at how the narrative of Britney has morphed. In 1999, every rock fan hated her and said her music and her style of music was the downfall of Western Culture and "real art". Now she's seen as a feminist icon, and someone way more complex than we all gave her credit for. You dont think the same is also true for alot of bubblegum pop artists? Its elitist to think only indie music is sacred. We all went through that phase. Glad to see theres a thread about how we have moved beyond that.
Doja has a few good songs, I dont understand the whole Megan Thee Stallion, Cardi B scene myself, so I get it. But this whole idea that we were fed in the 90's was crap, honestly. And it stunted my music appreciation in a way. I could have been enjoying lots of amazing music back then, not solely grunge bands on obscure labels with 2 fans total. Sub Pop is great and legendary, but Warner Bros and major labels put out quality stuff too.
And I beg to differ everyone I named, has been slagged off on this board and in wider culture as being vapid silly teeny popper crap, Taylor, Ed Sheeran, Kelly Clarkson, Niall (he was part of One Direction for gods sake!) etc... Those arent small time artists, folks. Those are the top .1 percent of artists Id say. Ed Sheeran and Taylor ALONE are the music industry, frankly.
I dont know I just sort of grew out of the "hey, she's signed to Universal Records so she's crap and I only listen to 7 inch vinyl prints of bands signed to some micro label in god knows where". Thats stuff we said in middle school, and as teens. I left that behind decades ago.
Actually as the OP I will say yes I have seen miss Americana and her folklore special. But as much as she says she whas changed I don’t think I but it. I saw her once in concert and I hated how she seemed to bask in the applause. And honestly half of miss americana is about her upset that she didn’t get nominated for reputation and wanted to get nominated and glorified again as she was making lover. Still love her music but don’t like that part of her. The funny thing is I think he best work is folklore and evermore where she did really seem to just relax and make music for the sake of making music. Will be interesting to see where she goes from here. I am loving the Taylor’s version of past albums lots of good vault stuff.
Im not following your logic. I agree with your ultimate conclusion, however you seen to have two conflicting ideas. One that she's vapid and self centered and fame obsessed. The other that she's a modern day Beatles, and has unbelievable depth and high quality depth to her music and art. That seems conflicting to me. Secondly, whats your opinion on PJ in 2021. Generally, almost always, when you create art you want it to be heard and consumed by as many people as possible. Being on stage provides you something personally, whether its the ego, fame, money, whatever. Its like the people who run for President. To run for president you ultimately are saying, "I have a vision for America, that 350 million people could benefit from". Seems very egoist to my ears personally. PJ in 2021, means Instagram accounts for all band members, accounts on all social media, Ed routinely appears at Grammy's, Oscars, Golden Globes, and is photographed with Billie Eilish or Niall, or whoever. The days of refusing to play along with Ticketmaster, and corporations is long gone. I remember in the press for Backspacer, Ed taking about how recently he was at a record store, ran into a friend, and the friend said, when are you guys coming out with a new album. And they had just released some live deal or whatever and he said it bothered him. He no longer wanted to make music only a small group of people got into. And Backspacer certainly was the point PJ, felt okay with corporate promotion etc.. Is Ed's statement all that different from your reading of the Taylor documentary? Ed wanted to be noticed. Why else would you create a major label band? PJ and Taylor could both be on some indie label like Discord, or whatever. They aren't Why not? The difference is you seem to suggest this is a bad thing I dont. I talked about this weeks ago and no one responded. The values we were sold in the 90's were harmful. Otherwise your main point is spot on. Her re-recorded albums are stunning, and the comparison to the Beatles is very apt. We all love PJ, but are they making their most hard hitting and powerful music in 2021? I dont think thats accurate. Taylor however is 13 plus years into her career and making as you say her best work. This isnt some flash in the pan, flavor of the week pop star. She was seen as that, but at this point we have to admit she's gone way way beyond that. I asked weeks ago to someone who's said she wasnt one of the best ever, that what specifically does she have to do to reach that status of the Beatles or the Stones. I said she has checked every box we associate with best ever, and is in that conversation now. Is she better than the Beatles, no way. But will she be discussed with them, absolutely.
Christmas music. This time of the year the car radio on my commute stays on a channel that plays Christmas music 24/7. It doesn't matter what artist it is, sappy old stuff or seriously cringe worthy new versions, the channel doesn't get changed.
I have a new one, Olivia Rodrigo. Never heard of her before this week, yes I guess I am late to the party. But she has so,e interesting shit. I understand there is some controversy around a few songs that would usually steer me away but such good stuff i am I’m for this.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,746
I love but do not hate to admit I love R.E.M. Furthermore, I love but do not hate to admit I love their song, "Shiny Happy People". I wrote this about it in the "POLL- The Weakest Link of American Bands" thread:
The R.E.M. song people love to hate, LOL. I'm one of those nerds
who love that song. Now and then, I hear it playing in the grocery
story while I am shopping. If you happen to be there at the same time, I
am the idiot who is dancing in the isles while it plays!
Here's another shiny little number I love but do not hate to admit I love, "Sweetness and Light" by Steve Wynn:
I have a new one, Olivia Rodrigo. Never heard of her before this week, yes I guess I am late to the party. But she has so,e interesting shit. I understand there is some controversy around a few songs that would usually steer me away but such good stuff i am I’m for this.
Look at the aftermarket pricing for her tickets. People w money want to make sure their kids get to see her, lol.
Comments
Yeah, for sure. Bono's overblown ego can get to me but I always seem to come around to appreciating him as a performer and for speaking out about important issues. The whole "mega-star as spokesperson" thing has it's problems, but I always end up giving Bono the thumbs up anyway.
I still have an iPad that it’s stuck on.
Interesting to know.
Secondly, whats your opinion on PJ in 2021. Generally, almost always, when you create art you want it to be heard and consumed by as many people as possible. Being on stage provides you something personally, whether its the ego, fame, money, whatever. Its like the people who run for President. To run for president you ultimately are saying, "I have a vision for America, that 350 million people could benefit from". Seems very egoist to my ears personally. PJ in 2021, means Instagram accounts for all band members, accounts on all social media, Ed routinely appears at Grammy's, Oscars, Golden Globes, and is photographed with Billie Eilish or Niall, or whoever. The days of refusing to play along with Ticketmaster, and corporations is long gone. I remember in the press for Backspacer, Ed taking about how recently he was at a record store, ran into a friend, and the friend said, when are you guys coming out with a new album. And they had just released some live deal or whatever and he said it bothered him. He no longer wanted to make music only a small group of people got into. And Backspacer certainly was the point PJ, felt okay with corporate promotion etc.. Is Ed's statement all that different from your reading of the Taylor documentary? Ed wanted to be noticed. Why else would you create a major label band? PJ and Taylor could both be on some indie label like Discord, or whatever. They aren't Why not? The difference is you seem to suggest this is a bad thing I dont.
I talked about this weeks ago and no one responded. The values we were sold in the 90's were harmful.
Otherwise your main point is spot on. Her re-recorded albums are stunning, and the comparison to the Beatles is very apt. We all love PJ, but are they making their most hard hitting and powerful music in 2021? I dont think thats accurate. Taylor however is 13 plus years into her career and making as you say her best work. This isnt some flash in the pan, flavor of the week pop star. She was seen as that, but at this point we have to admit she's gone way way beyond that.
I asked weeks ago to someone who's said she wasnt one of the best ever, that what specifically does she have to do to reach that status of the Beatles or the Stones. I said she has checked every box we associate with best ever, and is in that conversation now. Is she better than the Beatles, no way. But will she be discussed with them, absolutely.
I'm one of those nerds who love that song. Now and then, I hear it playing in the grocery story while I am shopping. If you happen to be there at the same time, I am the idiot who is dancing in the isles while it plays!
She's good. Enjoy.