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#46 President Joe Biden

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  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 39,957
    trumpsters preferred when the world hated the US. they somehow thought that equated to "respect" or "fear". 
    Shockingly they were wrong. lol
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 21,321
     
    Zahid Quraishi is sworn in during a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on Capitol Hill in Washington Kevin LamarquePool via AP
    Zahid Quraishi is sworn in for his confirmation hearing before the Senate Judiciary Committee on April 28. (Kevin Lamarque/Pool via AP)
    More

    The Senate on Thursday confirmed Zahid Quraishi to the District Court of New Jersey, making him the first Muslim American federal judge in U.S. history.

    Quraishi received bipartisan support with an 81-16 vote, including 32 Republicans who crossed party lines to approve his nomination. In April, President Biden nominated Quraishi to replace Judge Peter Sheridan, who is on senior status.

    The son of Pakistani immigrants, Quraishi was born in New York City and raised in Fanwood, N.J. After earning his law degree from Rutgers Law School, Quraishi joined the firm LeBoeuf, Lamb, Greene & MacRae. His first day of work was the day of the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, an event that prompted him to enlist in the military.

    “Those events of that day inspired Judge Quraishi to consider a career in public service.” Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., chairman of the Judiciary Committee, said before the vote. “He applied to the U.S. Army Judge Advocate General’s Corps, where he was commissioned as an officer and attained the rank of captain.” Quraishi was deployed to Iraq in 2004 and 2006. For his service, he was awarded the Bronze Star and a Combat Action Badge.


    Tom WilliamsPool via AP
    Quraishi at his confirmation hearing in April. (Tom Williams/Pool via AP)

    After leaving the Army, Quraishi worked as a federal prosecutor in the U.S. attorney’s office in New Jersey for five years and as an assistant chief counsel at the Department of Homeland Security. In 2019, he was appointed as a magistrate judge for the District Court of New Jersey, becoming the first Asian American to serve on the federal bench in the state.

    Upon his confirmation, Quarishi received congratulations from a number of progressives and Democrats. “Congrats to Judge Zahid Quraishi on his historic confirmation to the U.S. District Court of New Jersey!” Sen. Cory Booker, D-N.J., tweeted. “Zahid’s character, skill and expertise as a jurist, and his longstanding service to our state and country make him an excellent addition to the court.” Sen. Gary Peters, D-Mich., Sen. Mazie Hirono, D-Hawaii, and New Jersey Gov. Phil Murphy also took to Twitter to share their support.

    Quraishi is among Biden’s first judicial nominations, a diverse roster of 11 judges who would continue to make history if confirmed. These include Judge Florence Pan, who would be the first Asian American woman on the District Court in the District of Columbia, and Judge Lydia Griggsby, who would be the first woman of color to serve as a federal judge in Maryland.

    ____



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    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
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    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 21,321
     
    Biden, unlike predecessors, has maintained Putin skepticism
    By AAMER MADHANI
    Today

    BRUSSELS (AP) — President Joe Biden frequently talks about what he sees as central in executing effective foreign policy: building personal relationships.

    But unlike his four most recent White House predecessors, who made an effort to build a measure of rapport with Vladimir Putin, Biden has made clear that the virtue of fusing a personal connection might have its limits when it comes to the Russian leader.

    The American president, who is set to meet with Putin face to face on Wednesday in Geneva, is mindful of Putin’s ability to survive even as his country has diminished as a world economic power.

    Biden has repeated an anecdote about his last meeting with Putin, 10 years ago when he was vice president and Putin was serving as prime minister. Putin had taken a break from the presidency because the Russian constitution at the time prohibited a third consecutive term, but he was still seen as Russia's most powerful leader.

    Biden told biographer Evan Osnos that during that meeting in 2011, Putin showed him his ornate office in Moscow. Biden recalled poking Putin — a former KGB officer — that “it’s amazing what capitalism will do."

    Biden said he then turned around and standing inches from Putin said, “Mr. Prime Minister, I’m looking into your eyes, and I don’t think you have a soul." Biden said Putin smiled and responded: “We understand one another.”

    Putin, for his part, said in an NBC News interview aired Monday that he didn’t remember such an exchange. “I do not remember this particular part of our conversations,” Putin said.

    Biden's comment was in part a dig at former President George W. Bush, who faced ridicule after his first meeting with Putin when he claimed that he had “looked the man in the eye” and “was able to get a sense of his soul.” But in replaying his decade-old exchange with Putin, Biden also has attempted to demonstrate he is clear-eyed about the Russian leader in a way his predecessors weren’t.

    Biden and Putin are now meeting again, at a moment when the U.S.-Russia relationship seems to get more complicated by the day. Biden has repeatedly taken Putin to task — and levied sanctions against Russian entities and individuals in Putin’s orbit — over allegations of Russian interference in the 2020 election and the hacking of federal agencies in what is known as the SolarWinds breach.

    Despite the sanctions, Putin has been unmoved. Cyber attacks in the U.S. originating from Russian-based hackers in recent weeks have also impacted a major oil pipeline and the largest meat supplier in the world. Putin has denied Kremlin involvement.

    Michael McFaul, a former U.S. ambassador to Russia who was with Biden for the 2011 meeting with Putin, said in an interview that Biden might have a deeper skepticism and perhaps more informed view of Putin than any of his White House predecessors.

    “Biden’s knowledge of the region may be better than anybody that’s held the job,” McFaul said. “Biden has spent time in Georgia. He spent a lot of time in Ukraine. I traveled with him to Moldova, and he’s spent a lot of time in the eastern parts of the NATO alliance. He has been in those places and heard firsthand about Russian aggression and Russian threat. ... It has created a unique component of his analysis of Putin that other presidents have not had.”

    Indeed, as president, Biden has said he would take a far different tack in his relationship with Putin than former President Donald Trump, who showed unusual deference to Putin, and the three other past U.S. presidents, whose political lives overlapped Putin's time in power.

    During his first visit of his presidency to the State Department, in February, Biden told agency employees that the days of “rolling over” for Putin were over — a not-so thinly veiled shot at Trump. Later, in an ABC News interview, Biden answered affirmatively that Putin was “a killer."

    Trump’s tendency to genuflect to Putin had many in Washington openly questioning whether the Russians had something embarrassing on the real estate mogul. Both Trump and Putin publicly denied the speculation.

    Trump repeatedly tried to scotch the widespread contention — underscored by U.S. intelligence findings — that Russia interfered in the 2016 U.S. election. Asked at their joint news conference at the end of their 2018 summit in Helsinki, Finland, whom he believed — U.S. intelligence or Putin — Trump demurred.

    The White House said that Biden would not hold a joint news conference with Putin, but would speak to media on his own after Wednesday's meeting. Administration officials say that Biden doesn't want to elevate Putin. Asked Sunday why years of U.S. sanctions haven't changed Putin's behavior, Biden laughed and responded: “He's Vladimir Putin.""

    Barack Obama came into office seeking a reset of the U.S.-Russia relationship, an effort to improve relations with Russian leadership and find areas of common interest.

    Before his visit to Moscow early in his first term Obama spoke dismissively of Putin, saying the then-prime minister had “one foot in the old ways of doing business and one foot in the new.” But after meeting face-to-face during the trip, Obama pronounced he was “very convinced the prime minister is a man of today and he’s got his eyes firmly on the future.”

    That feeling didn't last.

    By the time Obama and Putin met on the sidelines of the 2013 Group of Eight summit in Northern Ireland, the reset effort was on life support.

    At the time, G-8 leaders were unsuccessfully pressing Putin to join a call for Syrian President Bashar Assad to step down. Former U.S. National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden had been allowed to stay in Russia after releasing highly classified American intelligence.

    Obama and Putin's disdain for each other was palpable. During a photo opportunity before the press in Northern Ireland, they sat grim faced and avoided looking at each other.

    In 2014, after Russia invaded neighboring Ukraine, any vapor of hope for a reset had evaporated.

    George W. Bush tried mightily to charm Putin, hosting him at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, and bringing him to his father’s estate in Kennebunkport, Maine, where the 43rd and 41st presidents took the Russian president fishing.

    But Putin ultimately flummoxed Bush and the relationship was badly damaged after Russia's 2008 invasion of its neighbor Georgia after Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili ordered his troops into the breakaway region of South Ossetia.

    Bill Clinton was the first U.S. president to deal with Putin, meeting him for the first time in 1999 at the Asian-Pacific Economic Cooperation gathering months. That was months before Putin would succeed Boris Yeltsin as president and a little over a year before the end of Clinton’s presidency.

    In a phone call with Britain’s Prime Minister Tony Blair in November 2000, Clinton called Putin “a guy with a lot of ambition for the Russians” but also expressed concern that Putin “could get squishy on democracy,” according to a transcript of the call published by the Clinton Presidential Archives.

    White House press secretary Jen Psaki told reporters last week that Biden has known Putin for a long time and “never held back” on voicing his concerns.

    “This is not about friendship. It’s not about trust,” Psaki said. “It’s about what’s in the interest of the United States. And, in our view, that is moving toward a more stable and predictable relationship.”

    Biden has managed several complicated relationships with foreign leaders during his nearly 50 years in national politics. He's developed a rapport with China's Xi Jinping — spending days traveling with Xi in the U.S. and China. Biden in recent days has told aides that his relationship with Turkey's Recep Tayyip Erdogan has remained strong despite differences over U.S. support for Kurds in northwest Syria and Biden disparaging Erdogan as an autocrat.

    But Putin has left Biden with fundamentally more difficult problems that personal diplomacy can't fix, said Rachel Ellehuus, deputy director of the Europe, Russia and Eurasia Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

    “With someone like Erdogan, Xi or the North Korean (Kim Jong Un), Biden has had this sense that we have something they want," Ellehuus said. “Biden has long recognized that the only thing Putin really wants is to undermine the U.S., to divide NATO, to divide the EU. Biden knows there’s little common ground to work from with Putin."


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 21,321
    Seems to be a productive first overseas trip for USA by  The PRESIDENT.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,562
    mickeyrat said:
    Seems to be a productive first overseas trip for USA by  The PRESIDENT.
    I want to see him put extreme pressure on Putin for the cyber crimes.  Either Russia is a rogue state,  allowing this to happen,  or a failed state,  unable to stop the attacks. 
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 21,321
    mrussel1 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    Seems to be a productive first overseas trip for USA by  The PRESIDENT.
    I want to see him put extreme pressure on Putin for the cyber crimes.  Either Russia is a rogue state,  allowing this to happen,  or a failed state,  unable to stop the attacks. 

    the above article I posted reflects that I think.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,562
    mickeyrat said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    Seems to be a productive first overseas trip for USA by  The PRESIDENT.
    I want to see him put extreme pressure on Putin for the cyber crimes.  Either Russia is a rogue state,  allowing this to happen,  or a failed state,  unable to stop the attacks. 

    the above article I posted reflects that I think.
    I confess to not reading it
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 21,321
     
    Biden rallies NATO support ahead of confrontation with Putin
    By AAMER MADHANI, JONATHAN LEMIRE and LORNE COOK
    29 mins ago

    BRUSSELS (AP) — President Joe Biden used his first appearance at a NATO summit since taking office to call on Russian President Vladimir Putin to step back from provocative actions targeting the U.S. and its allies on Monday. NATO leaders joined the United States in formally accusing Moscow and Beijing of malign actions.

    Biden's sharp words for Russia and his friendly interactions with NATO allies marked a sharp shift in tone from the past four years and highlighted the renewed U.S. commitment to the 30-country alliance that was frequently maligned by predecessor Donald Trump.

    Biden, wearing a NATO lapel pin, said that in his extensive talks with NATO leaders about his planned meeting with Putin on Wednesday, all were supportive of his plans to press the Russian leader to halt Russian-originated cyber attacks against the West, end the violent stifling of political dissidents and stop interfering in elections outside its borders.

    “I’m going to make clear to President Putin that there are areas where we can cooperate, if he chooses," Biden told reporters as he ended his day at NATO headquarters. “And if he chooses not to cooperate and acts in a way that he has in the past relative to cybersecurity and other activities, then we will respond, we will respond in kind."

    Biden is on an eight-day visit to Europe in which he is seeking to rally allies to speak with a single voice on countering Russia and China.

    To that end, NATO leaders on Monday declared China a constant security challenge and said the Chinese are working to undermine global order, a message in sync with Biden’s pleas to confront Beijing on China’s trade, military and human rights practices.

    In a summit statement, the leaders said that China’s goals and “assertive behavior present systemic challenges to the rules-based international order and to areas relevant to alliance security.”

    The heads of state and government expressed concern about what they said were China's “coercive policies,” the opaque ways it is modernizing its armed forces and its use of disinformation.

    The NATO leaders also took a big swipe at Russia in their communique, deploring what they consider its aggressive military activities and its snap wargames near the borders of NATO countries as well as repeated violations of their airspace by Russian planes.

    They said that Russia had ramped up “hybrid” actions against member countries by attempts to interfere in elections, by political and economic intimidation, by disinformation campaigns and “malicious cyber activities.”

    “Until Russia demonstrates compliance with international law and its international obligations and responsibilities, there can be no return to ’business as usual,'” they said.

    The North Atlantic Treaty Organization is an alliance of European and North American countries formed after World War II as a bulwark against Russian aggression. The new Brussels communique states plainly that the NATO nations “will engage China with a view to defending the security interests of the alliance.”

    Biden arrived at the NATO summit after three days of consulting with Group of Seven allies in England, where he successfully pushed for a G-7 communique that called out forced labor practices and other human rights violations impacting Uyghur Muslims and other ethnic minorities in China's western Xinjiang province.

    However, differences remain among the allies about how forcefully to criticize Beijing.

    German Chancellor Angela Merkel said NATO’s decision to name China as a threat “shouldn’t be overstated” because Beijing, like Russia, is also a partner in some areas. China is Germany's top trading partner, and she said it is important to “find the right balance.”

    France's President Emmanuel Macron urged the alliance not to let China distract it from what he saw as more pressing issues facing NATO, including the fight against terrorism and security issues related to Russia.

    “I think it is very important not to scatter our efforts and not to have biases in our relation to China," Macron said.

    The Chinese Embassy to the United Kingdom on Monday issued a statement saying the G-7 communique “deliberately slandered China and arbitrarily interfered in China’s internal affairs." There was no immediate reaction from the Chinese government to the new NATO statement.

    Biden arrived at his first NATO summit as president as leading members declared it a pivotal moment for an alliance beleaguered during the presidency of Trump, who questioned the relevance of the multilateral organization.

    Biden sat down with NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg and underscored the U.S. commitment to Article 5 of the alliance charter, which spells out that an attack on any member is an attack on all and is to be met with a collective response.

    “Article 5 we take as a sacred obligation,” said Biden. “I want NATO to know America is there.”

    It was a marked contrast to the days when Trump called the alliance “obsolete" and complained that it allowed for “global freeloading” countries to spend less on military defense at the expense of the U.S.

    Biden was greeted by fellow leaders with warmth and even a bit of relief.

    Belgian Prime Minister Alexander de Croo said Biden’s presence “emphasizes the renewal of the transatlantic partnership." De Croo said NATO allies were looking to get beyond four stormy years with Trump and infighting among member countries.

    “I think now we are ready to turn the page," de Croo said.

    The alliance also updated Article 5 to offer greater clarity on how the alliance should react to major cyber attacks — a matter of growing concern amid hacks targeting the U.S. government and businesses around the globe by Russia-based hackers.

    Beyond extending potential use of the mutual defense clause to apply to space, the leaders also broadened the definition of what might constitute such an attack in cyberspace, in a warning to any adversary that might use constant low-level attacks as a tactic.

    The organization declared in 2014 that a cyber attack could be met by a collective response by all 30 member countries, and on Monday they said that “the impact of significant malicious cumulative cyber activities might, in certain circumstances, be considered as amounting to an armed attack.”

    The president started his day meeting with leaders of the Baltic states on NATO's eastern flank as well as separate meetings with leaders of Poland and Romania to discuss any threat posed by Russia and the recent air piracy in Belarus.

    Biden also met with Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, on the summit sidelines.

    Biden has known Erdogan for years, but their relationship has frequently been contentious. Biden, during his campaign, drew ire from Turkish officials when he described Erdogan as an “autocrat." In April, Biden infuriated Ankara by declaring that the Ottoman-era mass killing and deportations of Armenians was “genocide" — a term that U.S. presidents have avoided using.

    ___

    Associated Press writers Frank Jordans, Sylvie Corbet, Zeke Miller and Alexandra Jaffe contributed reporting.


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,562
    dankind said:
    I think this is misleading a bit, in the headline.  The DOJ filed the motion.  If Biden has shown us anything, he has allowed the DOJ to work free of political influence, to the point where cases filed on behalf of Trump have continued forward.  The official policy of the US gov't today is that the federal death penalty is intact.  If anyone deserves the death penalty, this is a strong candidate. 
  • dankinddankind I am not your foot. Posts: 17,877
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    I think this is misleading a bit, in the headline.  The DOJ filed the motion.  If Biden has shown us anything, he has allowed the DOJ to work free of political influence, to the point where cases filed on behalf of Trump have continued forward.  The official policy of the US gov't today is that the federal death penalty is intact.  If anyone deserves the death penalty, this is a strong candidate. 
    In your opinion. And Mr. Compassion's DOJ's, I guess.

    I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't execute people for a mistake they made before their brains are fully developed; he couldn't even buy a beer or rent a car, but if he's to be our scapegoat for revenge, I guess that's who we are as a nation. Barbaric.
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,562
    dankind said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    I think this is misleading a bit, in the headline.  The DOJ filed the motion.  If Biden has shown us anything, he has allowed the DOJ to work free of political influence, to the point where cases filed on behalf of Trump have continued forward.  The official policy of the US gov't today is that the federal death penalty is intact.  If anyone deserves the death penalty, this is a strong candidate. 
    In your opinion. And Mr. Compassion's DOJ's, I guess.

    I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't execute people for a mistake they made before their brains are fully developed; he couldn't even buy a beer or rent a car, but if he's to be our scapegoat for revenge, I guess that's who we are as a nation. Barbaric.
    He was a legal adult.. I'm vehemently against juveniles in the adult court system regardless of the crime.  But at some point a child becomes an adult.  Whether that should be 18, 21 or 25, I can't say.  But it is 18 today. If he was 30 when he did it rather than 19 or 20, would you feel differently?
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 14,748
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    I think this is misleading a bit, in the headline.  The DOJ filed the motion.  If Biden has shown us anything, he has allowed the DOJ to work free of political influence, to the point where cases filed on behalf of Trump have continued forward.  The official policy of the US gov't today is that the federal death penalty is intact.  If anyone deserves the death penalty, this is a strong candidate. 
    In your opinion. And Mr. Compassion's DOJ's, I guess.

    I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't execute people for a mistake they made before their brains are fully developed; he couldn't even buy a beer or rent a car, but if he's to be our scapegoat for revenge, I guess that's who we are as a nation. Barbaric.
    He was a legal adult.. I'm vehemently against juveniles in the adult court system regardless of the crime.  But at some point a child becomes an adult.  Whether that should be 18, 21 or 25, I can't say.  But it is 18 today. If he was 30 when he did it rather than 19 or 20, would you feel differently?
    I'm the complete opposite. If you commit murder at age 16 or 17, I think you should face those charges as an adult. Though I wouldn't be against the person being held in juvenile detention until they're 18. 
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2

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  • dankinddankind I am not your foot. Posts: 17,877
    edited June 15
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    I think this is misleading a bit, in the headline.  The DOJ filed the motion.  If Biden has shown us anything, he has allowed the DOJ to work free of political influence, to the point where cases filed on behalf of Trump have continued forward.  The official policy of the US gov't today is that the federal death penalty is intact.  If anyone deserves the death penalty, this is a strong candidate. 
    In your opinion. And Mr. Compassion's DOJ's, I guess.

    I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't execute people for a mistake they made before their brains are fully developed; he couldn't even buy a beer or rent a car, but if he's to be our scapegoat for revenge, I guess that's who we are as a nation. Barbaric.
    He was a legal adult.. I'm vehemently against juveniles in the adult court system regardless of the crime.  But at some point a child becomes an adult.  Whether that should be 18, 21 or 25, I can't say.  But it is 18 today. If he was 30 when he did it rather than 19 or 20, would you feel differently?
    Absolutely, I would.

    I'm against the death penalty, but I would certainly feel differently.

    And as for you can't say whether it should be 18, 21, or 25, well, the science has been at 25 for decades now, but autos, alcohol, tobacco, and firearms must be sold to keep the nation awesome.
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,562
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    I think this is misleading a bit, in the headline.  The DOJ filed the motion.  If Biden has shown us anything, he has allowed the DOJ to work free of political influence, to the point where cases filed on behalf of Trump have continued forward.  The official policy of the US gov't today is that the federal death penalty is intact.  If anyone deserves the death penalty, this is a strong candidate. 
    In your opinion. And Mr. Compassion's DOJ's, I guess.

    I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't execute people for a mistake they made before their brains are fully developed; he couldn't even buy a beer or rent a car, but if he's to be our scapegoat for revenge, I guess that's who we are as a nation. Barbaric.
    He was a legal adult.. I'm vehemently against juveniles in the adult court system regardless of the crime.  But at some point a child becomes an adult.  Whether that should be 18, 21 or 25, I can't say.  But it is 18 today. If he was 30 when he did it rather than 19 or 20, would you feel differently?
    I'm the complete opposite. If you commit murder at age 16 or 17, I think you should face those charges as an adult. Though I wouldn't be against the person being held in juvenile detention until they're 18. 
    I don't think kids that young fully understand consequences.  And if you're going bad at that age, it's more than likely your environment and/or mental illness.  
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 14,748
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    I think this is misleading a bit, in the headline.  The DOJ filed the motion.  If Biden has shown us anything, he has allowed the DOJ to work free of political influence, to the point where cases filed on behalf of Trump have continued forward.  The official policy of the US gov't today is that the federal death penalty is intact.  If anyone deserves the death penalty, this is a strong candidate. 
    In your opinion. And Mr. Compassion's DOJ's, I guess.

    I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't execute people for a mistake they made before their brains are fully developed; he couldn't even buy a beer or rent a car, but if he's to be our scapegoat for revenge, I guess that's who we are as a nation. Barbaric.
    He was a legal adult.. I'm vehemently against juveniles in the adult court system regardless of the crime.  But at some point a child becomes an adult.  Whether that should be 18, 21 or 25, I can't say.  But it is 18 today. If he was 30 when he did it rather than 19 or 20, would you feel differently?
    I'm the complete opposite. If you commit murder at age 16 or 17, I think you should face those charges as an adult. Though I wouldn't be against the person being held in juvenile detention until they're 18. 
    I don't think kids that young fully understand consequences.  And if you're going bad at that age, it's more than likely your environment and/or mental illness.  
    There's kids that young that are hardened criminals. You're right that environment and/or mental illness will more than likely be the cause. But it's just as likely to be the cause for a 18 or 19 year old. I just don't agree that someone that is a few months away from being 18 that murders someone should go into the juvenile system, while someone that just turned 18 should go into the adult system. And it wouldn't happen like that. The 17 and a half year old would likely be certified to adult court. 
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2

    Pearl Jam bootlegs:
    http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 23,314
    dankind said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    I think this is misleading a bit, in the headline.  The DOJ filed the motion.  If Biden has shown us anything, he has allowed the DOJ to work free of political influence, to the point where cases filed on behalf of Trump have continued forward.  The official policy of the US gov't today is that the federal death penalty is intact.  If anyone deserves the death penalty, this is a strong candidate. 
    In your opinion. And Mr. Compassion's DOJ's, I guess.

    I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't execute people for a mistake they made before their brains are fully developed; he couldn't even buy a beer or rent a car, but if he's to be our scapegoat for revenge, I guess that's who we are as a nation. Barbaric.
    He was a legal adult.. I'm vehemently against juveniles in the adult court system regardless of the crime.  But at some point a child becomes an adult.  Whether that should be 18, 21 or 25, I can't say.  But it is 18 today. If he was 30 when he did it rather than 19 or 20, would you feel differently?
    Absolutely, I would.

    I'm against the death penalty, but I would certainly feel differently.

    And as for you can't say whether it should be 18, 21, or 25, well, the science has been at 25 for decades now, but autos, alcohol, tobacco, and firearms must be sold to keep the nation awesome.
    Don’t forget about all those 18  and 19 year-olds in the forces. 
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,562
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    I think this is misleading a bit, in the headline.  The DOJ filed the motion.  If Biden has shown us anything, he has allowed the DOJ to work free of political influence, to the point where cases filed on behalf of Trump have continued forward.  The official policy of the US gov't today is that the federal death penalty is intact.  If anyone deserves the death penalty, this is a strong candidate. 
    In your opinion. And Mr. Compassion's DOJ's, I guess.

    I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't execute people for a mistake they made before their brains are fully developed; he couldn't even buy a beer or rent a car, but if he's to be our scapegoat for revenge, I guess that's who we are as a nation. Barbaric.
    He was a legal adult.. I'm vehemently against juveniles in the adult court system regardless of the crime.  But at some point a child becomes an adult.  Whether that should be 18, 21 or 25, I can't say.  But it is 18 today. If he was 30 when he did it rather than 19 or 20, would you feel differently?
    I'm the complete opposite. If you commit murder at age 16 or 17, I think you should face those charges as an adult. Though I wouldn't be against the person being held in juvenile detention until they're 18. 
    I don't think kids that young fully understand consequences.  And if you're going bad at that age, it's more than likely your environment and/or mental illness.  
    There's kids that young that are hardened criminals. You're right that environment and/or mental illness will more than likely be the cause. But it's just as likely to be the cause for a 18 or 19 year old. I just don't agree that someone that is a few months away from being 18 that murders someone should go into the juvenile system, while someone that just turned 18 should go into the adult system. And it wouldn't happen like that. The 17 and a half year old would likely be certified to adult court. 
    There are kids as young as 15 that are charged as adults.  In some states, it's mandatory, completely out of the judge's discretion.  17 years and 10 months.. fine.  I'm not arguing that.  15, 16, and even 17 is too young.  
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 14,748
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    I think this is misleading a bit, in the headline.  The DOJ filed the motion.  If Biden has shown us anything, he has allowed the DOJ to work free of political influence, to the point where cases filed on behalf of Trump have continued forward.  The official policy of the US gov't today is that the federal death penalty is intact.  If anyone deserves the death penalty, this is a strong candidate. 
    In your opinion. And Mr. Compassion's DOJ's, I guess.

    I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't execute people for a mistake they made before their brains are fully developed; he couldn't even buy a beer or rent a car, but if he's to be our scapegoat for revenge, I guess that's who we are as a nation. Barbaric.
    He was a legal adult.. I'm vehemently against juveniles in the adult court system regardless of the crime.  But at some point a child becomes an adult.  Whether that should be 18, 21 or 25, I can't say.  But it is 18 today. If he was 30 when he did it rather than 19 or 20, would you feel differently?
    I'm the complete opposite. If you commit murder at age 16 or 17, I think you should face those charges as an adult. Though I wouldn't be against the person being held in juvenile detention until they're 18. 
    I don't think kids that young fully understand consequences.  And if you're going bad at that age, it's more than likely your environment and/or mental illness.  
    There's kids that young that are hardened criminals. You're right that environment and/or mental illness will more than likely be the cause. But it's just as likely to be the cause for a 18 or 19 year old. I just don't agree that someone that is a few months away from being 18 that murders someone should go into the juvenile system, while someone that just turned 18 should go into the adult system. And it wouldn't happen like that. The 17 and a half year old would likely be certified to adult court. 
    There are kids as young as 15 that are charged as adults.  In some states, it's mandatory, completely out of the judge's discretion.  17 years and 10 months.. fine.  I'm not arguing that.  15, 16, and even 17 is too young.  

    I'm not surprised that you feel this way. I just disagree. 
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2

    Pearl Jam bootlegs:
    http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,562
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    I think this is misleading a bit, in the headline.  The DOJ filed the motion.  If Biden has shown us anything, he has allowed the DOJ to work free of political influence, to the point where cases filed on behalf of Trump have continued forward.  The official policy of the US gov't today is that the federal death penalty is intact.  If anyone deserves the death penalty, this is a strong candidate. 
    In your opinion. And Mr. Compassion's DOJ's, I guess.

    I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't execute people for a mistake they made before their brains are fully developed; he couldn't even buy a beer or rent a car, but if he's to be our scapegoat for revenge, I guess that's who we are as a nation. Barbaric.
    He was a legal adult.. I'm vehemently against juveniles in the adult court system regardless of the crime.  But at some point a child becomes an adult.  Whether that should be 18, 21 or 25, I can't say.  But it is 18 today. If he was 30 when he did it rather than 19 or 20, would you feel differently?
    I'm the complete opposite. If you commit murder at age 16 or 17, I think you should face those charges as an adult. Though I wouldn't be against the person being held in juvenile detention until they're 18. 
    I don't think kids that young fully understand consequences.  And if you're going bad at that age, it's more than likely your environment and/or mental illness.  
    There's kids that young that are hardened criminals. You're right that environment and/or mental illness will more than likely be the cause. But it's just as likely to be the cause for a 18 or 19 year old. I just don't agree that someone that is a few months away from being 18 that murders someone should go into the juvenile system, while someone that just turned 18 should go into the adult system. And it wouldn't happen like that. The 17 and a half year old would likely be certified to adult court. 
    There are kids as young as 15 that are charged as adults.  In some states, it's mandatory, completely out of the judge's discretion.  17 years and 10 months.. fine.  I'm not arguing that.  15, 16, and even 17 is too young.  

    I'm not surprised that you feel this way. I just disagree. 
    This is an interesting read.  It talks about Kip's case and the broader issues around mental health,  and trying kids as adults without and latitude by a judge or prosecutor. 

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kip-kinkel-is-ready-to-speak_n_60abd623e4b0a2568315c62d
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 14,748
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    I think this is misleading a bit, in the headline.  The DOJ filed the motion.  If Biden has shown us anything, he has allowed the DOJ to work free of political influence, to the point where cases filed on behalf of Trump have continued forward.  The official policy of the US gov't today is that the federal death penalty is intact.  If anyone deserves the death penalty, this is a strong candidate. 
    In your opinion. And Mr. Compassion's DOJ's, I guess.

    I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't execute people for a mistake they made before their brains are fully developed; he couldn't even buy a beer or rent a car, but if he's to be our scapegoat for revenge, I guess that's who we are as a nation. Barbaric.
    He was a legal adult.. I'm vehemently against juveniles in the adult court system regardless of the crime.  But at some point a child becomes an adult.  Whether that should be 18, 21 or 25, I can't say.  But it is 18 today. If he was 30 when he did it rather than 19 or 20, would you feel differently?
    I'm the complete opposite. If you commit murder at age 16 or 17, I think you should face those charges as an adult. Though I wouldn't be against the person being held in juvenile detention until they're 18. 
    I don't think kids that young fully understand consequences.  And if you're going bad at that age, it's more than likely your environment and/or mental illness.  
    There's kids that young that are hardened criminals. You're right that environment and/or mental illness will more than likely be the cause. But it's just as likely to be the cause for a 18 or 19 year old. I just don't agree that someone that is a few months away from being 18 that murders someone should go into the juvenile system, while someone that just turned 18 should go into the adult system. And it wouldn't happen like that. The 17 and a half year old would likely be certified to adult court. 
    There are kids as young as 15 that are charged as adults.  In some states, it's mandatory, completely out of the judge's discretion.  17 years and 10 months.. fine.  I'm not arguing that.  15, 16, and even 17 is too young.  

    I'm not surprised that you feel this way. I just disagree. 
    This is an interesting read.  It talks about Kip's case and the broader issues around mental health,  and trying kids as adults without and latitude by a judge or prosecutor. 

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kip-kinkel-is-ready-to-speak_n_60abd623e4b0a2568315c62d
    Thanks. I'll have to read this later, as I am somewhat familiar with Kinkel's case. But it's too long to read now at work. 
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2

    Pearl Jam bootlegs:
    http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,944
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    I think this is misleading a bit, in the headline.  The DOJ filed the motion.  If Biden has shown us anything, he has allowed the DOJ to work free of political influence, to the point where cases filed on behalf of Trump have continued forward.  The official policy of the US gov't today is that the federal death penalty is intact.  If anyone deserves the death penalty, this is a strong candidate. 
    In your opinion. And Mr. Compassion's DOJ's, I guess.

    I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't execute people for a mistake they made before their brains are fully developed; he couldn't even buy a beer or rent a car, but if he's to be our scapegoat for revenge, I guess that's who we are as a nation. Barbaric.
    He was a legal adult.. I'm vehemently against juveniles in the adult court system regardless of the crime.  But at some point a child becomes an adult.  Whether that should be 18, 21 or 25, I can't say.  But it is 18 today. If he was 30 when he did it rather than 19 or 20, would you feel differently?
    I'm the complete opposite. If you commit murder at age 16 or 17, I think you should face those charges as an adult. Though I wouldn't be against the person being held in juvenile detention until they're 18. 
    I don't think kids that young fully understand consequences.  And if you're going bad at that age, it's more than likely your environment and/or mental illness.  
    There's kids that young that are hardened criminals. You're right that environment and/or mental illness will more than likely be the cause. But it's just as likely to be the cause for a 18 or 19 year old. I just don't agree that someone that is a few months away from being 18 that murders someone should go into the juvenile system, while someone that just turned 18 should go into the adult system. And it wouldn't happen like that. The 17 and a half year old would likely be certified to adult court. 
    There are kids as young as 15 that are charged as adults.  In some states, it's mandatory, completely out of the judge's discretion.  17 years and 10 months.. fine.  I'm not arguing that.  15, 16, and even 17 is too young.  

    I'm not surprised that you feel this way. I just disagree. 
    This is an interesting read.  It talks about Kip's case and the broader issues around mental health,  and trying kids as adults without and latitude by a judge or prosecutor. 

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kip-kinkel-is-ready-to-speak_n_60abd623e4b0a2568315c62d
    This paragraph from the article strikes me and leads me to think a couple of things:

    Most people with schizophrenia do not commit acts of violence — in fact, people with severe mental illness are more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators. But Kinkel’s voices demanded he commit terrible violence at an incredibly vulnerable time in his young life.

    Mainly, how things might have been different if he wasn't given a rifle when he was 12, allowed to purchase a hand gun with money he had saved a year before he committed the killings and if he had gotten the appropriate mental health care with his father being more supportive of his getting treatment. Oh, and if "responsible" gun owners secured their firearms so they couldn't be stolen and sold for $110.00.

    The ease with which firearms are obtained is absolutely ridiculous. 'Murica, and the shots ring out.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,562
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    I think this is misleading a bit, in the headline.  The DOJ filed the motion.  If Biden has shown us anything, he has allowed the DOJ to work free of political influence, to the point where cases filed on behalf of Trump have continued forward.  The official policy of the US gov't today is that the federal death penalty is intact.  If anyone deserves the death penalty, this is a strong candidate. 
    In your opinion. And Mr. Compassion's DOJ's, I guess.

    I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't execute people for a mistake they made before their brains are fully developed; he couldn't even buy a beer or rent a car, but if he's to be our scapegoat for revenge, I guess that's who we are as a nation. Barbaric.
    He was a legal adult.. I'm vehemently against juveniles in the adult court system regardless of the crime.  But at some point a child becomes an adult.  Whether that should be 18, 21 or 25, I can't say.  But it is 18 today. If he was 30 when he did it rather than 19 or 20, would you feel differently?
    I'm the complete opposite. If you commit murder at age 16 or 17, I think you should face those charges as an adult. Though I wouldn't be against the person being held in juvenile detention until they're 18. 
    I don't think kids that young fully understand consequences.  And if you're going bad at that age, it's more than likely your environment and/or mental illness.  
    There's kids that young that are hardened criminals. You're right that environment and/or mental illness will more than likely be the cause. But it's just as likely to be the cause for a 18 or 19 year old. I just don't agree that someone that is a few months away from being 18 that murders someone should go into the juvenile system, while someone that just turned 18 should go into the adult system. And it wouldn't happen like that. The 17 and a half year old would likely be certified to adult court. 
    There are kids as young as 15 that are charged as adults.  In some states, it's mandatory, completely out of the judge's discretion.  17 years and 10 months.. fine.  I'm not arguing that.  15, 16, and even 17 is too young.  

    I'm not surprised that you feel this way. I just disagree. 
    This is an interesting read.  It talks about Kip's case and the broader issues around mental health,  and trying kids as adults without and latitude by a judge or prosecutor. 

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kip-kinkel-is-ready-to-speak_n_60abd623e4b0a2568315c62d
    This paragraph from the article strikes me and leads me to think a couple of things:

    Most people with schizophrenia do not commit acts of violence — in fact, people with severe mental illness are more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators. But Kinkel’s voices demanded he commit terrible violence at an incredibly vulnerable time in his young life.

    Mainly, how things might have been different if he wasn't given a rifle when he was 12, allowed to purchase a hand gun with money he had saved a year before he committed the killings and if he had gotten the appropriate mental health care with his father being more supportive of his getting treatment. Oh, and if "responsible" gun owners secured their firearms so they couldn't be stolen and sold for $110.00.

    The ease with which firearms are obtained is absolutely ridiculous. 'Murica, and the shots ring out.
    Yes,  his parents put him in a risk position.  Doesn't mean that he could not have killed with a knife or something else.  But they made it easier. 
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,944
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    I think this is misleading a bit, in the headline.  The DOJ filed the motion.  If Biden has shown us anything, he has allowed the DOJ to work free of political influence, to the point where cases filed on behalf of Trump have continued forward.  The official policy of the US gov't today is that the federal death penalty is intact.  If anyone deserves the death penalty, this is a strong candidate. 
    In your opinion. And Mr. Compassion's DOJ's, I guess.

    I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't execute people for a mistake they made before their brains are fully developed; he couldn't even buy a beer or rent a car, but if he's to be our scapegoat for revenge, I guess that's who we are as a nation. Barbaric.
    He was a legal adult.. I'm vehemently against juveniles in the adult court system regardless of the crime.  But at some point a child becomes an adult.  Whether that should be 18, 21 or 25, I can't say.  But it is 18 today. If he was 30 when he did it rather than 19 or 20, would you feel differently?
    I'm the complete opposite. If you commit murder at age 16 or 17, I think you should face those charges as an adult. Though I wouldn't be against the person being held in juvenile detention until they're 18. 
    I don't think kids that young fully understand consequences.  And if you're going bad at that age, it's more than likely your environment and/or mental illness.  
    There's kids that young that are hardened criminals. You're right that environment and/or mental illness will more than likely be the cause. But it's just as likely to be the cause for a 18 or 19 year old. I just don't agree that someone that is a few months away from being 18 that murders someone should go into the juvenile system, while someone that just turned 18 should go into the adult system. And it wouldn't happen like that. The 17 and a half year old would likely be certified to adult court. 
    There are kids as young as 15 that are charged as adults.  In some states, it's mandatory, completely out of the judge's discretion.  17 years and 10 months.. fine.  I'm not arguing that.  15, 16, and even 17 is too young.  

    I'm not surprised that you feel this way. I just disagree. 
    This is an interesting read.  It talks about Kip's case and the broader issues around mental health,  and trying kids as adults without and latitude by a judge or prosecutor. 

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kip-kinkel-is-ready-to-speak_n_60abd623e4b0a2568315c62d
    This paragraph from the article strikes me and leads me to think a couple of things:

    Most people with schizophrenia do not commit acts of violence — in fact, people with severe mental illness are more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators. But Kinkel’s voices demanded he commit terrible violence at an incredibly vulnerable time in his young life.

    Mainly, how things might have been different if he wasn't given a rifle when he was 12, allowed to purchase a hand gun with money he had saved a year before he committed the killings and if he had gotten the appropriate mental health care with his father being more supportive of his getting treatment. Oh, and if "responsible" gun owners secured their firearms so they couldn't be stolen and sold for $110.00.

    The ease with which firearms are obtained is absolutely ridiculous. 'Murica, and the shots ring out.
    Yes,  his parents put him in a risk position.  Doesn't mean that he could not have killed with a knife or something else.  But they made it easier. 
    I’m not sure he would have killed both his parents, two classmates and injured 25 though. Stabbing someone is a much more personal endeavor and he was stopped by someone he had shot. A hell of a lot easier.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,562
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dankind said:
    I think this is misleading a bit, in the headline.  The DOJ filed the motion.  If Biden has shown us anything, he has allowed the DOJ to work free of political influence, to the point where cases filed on behalf of Trump have continued forward.  The official policy of the US gov't today is that the federal death penalty is intact.  If anyone deserves the death penalty, this is a strong candidate. 
    In your opinion. And Mr. Compassion's DOJ's, I guess.

    I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't execute people for a mistake they made before their brains are fully developed; he couldn't even buy a beer or rent a car, but if he's to be our scapegoat for revenge, I guess that's who we are as a nation. Barbaric.
    He was a legal adult.. I'm vehemently against juveniles in the adult court system regardless of the crime.  But at some point a child becomes an adult.  Whether that should be 18, 21 or 25, I can't say.  But it is 18 today. If he was 30 when he did it rather than 19 or 20, would you feel differently?
    I'm the complete opposite. If you commit murder at age 16 or 17, I think you should face those charges as an adult. Though I wouldn't be against the person being held in juvenile detention until they're 18. 
    I don't think kids that young fully understand consequences.  And if you're going bad at that age, it's more than likely your environment and/or mental illness.  
    There's kids that young that are hardened criminals. You're right that environment and/or mental illness will more than likely be the cause. But it's just as likely to be the cause for a 18 or 19 year old. I just don't agree that someone that is a few months away from being 18 that murders someone should go into the juvenile system, while someone that just turned 18 should go into the adult system. And it wouldn't happen like that. The 17 and a half year old would likely be certified to adult court. 
    There are kids as young as 15 that are charged as adults.  In some states, it's mandatory, completely out of the judge's discretion.  17 years and 10 months.. fine.  I'm not arguing that.  15, 16, and even 17 is too young.  

    I'm not surprised that you feel this way. I just disagree. 
    This is an interesting read.  It talks about Kip's case and the broader issues around mental health,  and trying kids as adults without and latitude by a judge or prosecutor. 

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kip-kinkel-is-ready-to-speak_n_60abd623e4b0a2568315c62d
    This paragraph from the article strikes me and leads me to think a couple of things:

    Most people with schizophrenia do not commit acts of violence — in fact, people with severe mental illness are more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators. But Kinkel’s voices demanded he commit terrible violence at an incredibly vulnerable time in his young life.

    Mainly, how things might have been different if he wasn't given a rifle when he was 12, allowed to purchase a hand gun with money he had saved a year before he committed the killings and if he had gotten the appropriate mental health care with his father being more supportive of his getting treatment. Oh, and if "responsible" gun owners secured their firearms so they couldn't be stolen and sold for $110.00.

    The ease with which firearms are obtained is absolutely ridiculous. 'Murica, and the shots ring out.
    Yes,  his parents put him in a risk position.  Doesn't mean that he could not have killed with a knife or something else.  But they made it easier. 
    I’m not sure he would have killed both his parents, two classmates and injured 25 though. Stabbing someone is a much more personal endeavor and he was stopped by someone he had shot. A hell of a lot easier.
    Certainly not as efficient or complete.  That's for sure 
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