White Privilege

hedonist

tbergs said:

mcgruff10 said:

@tbergs I am almost positive you are from Minnesota.  Question, is Minneapolis pretty racist or is this a isolated incident?  Were you surprised this happened?

@mcgruff10 Yes, I am. I grew up in rural MN, but have lived and worked in the MPLS/St. Paul metro area for most of the last 20+ years. I mentioned in another thread after this happened that I briefly lived in the area where Floyd died and know many people from around that area.

In relation to this incident, I have been trying to refrain from offering my candid opinion in most settings because it would mean openly mentioning my background of law enforcement and what I know existed at least 10 years ago when I was still knee deep in everything LE (and we know how mentioning our professions goes around here sometimes). I don't know that I can explain it very well. I stepped away from that role and work for a college campus now as the director of public safety which is leaps and bounds different than the chaos a police officer on the city streets has to deal with on a daily basis.

I think there is a very fine line and even the best officers have their moments because they are flawed humans. Most of the bias exists in the 15+ year veterans from my experience, but the bias often expands far beyond race. It is a disdain for those who choose to harm themselves and others, whether it be assault, theft, substance abuse or one of the many other vices that plague the entire world. There is no excuse for intentional violence or abuse of power against anyone when you choose to wear the badge, but I think some lose that rose colored tint after being exposed to the same situations and people day in and day out. The same justice system you see fail minorities, fails police as well. That slam dunk domestic assault where they had to pull the suspect off the victim ends up getting pled down to a misdemeanor with probation. Or the stabbing in the alley of a bar where the suspect is screaming about murdering their ex as they're being taken in to custody seems like a no-brainer to be at least a 2nd degree assault with a deadly weapon ends up being a disorderly conduct and 5th degree assault. Cops lose that feeling and sense of "I" can make a difference the longer they see the same result and cycle continue. When this attitude and race intersect, it's a recipe for disaster, even if it did not have to do with race it can never not be about race. The present doesn't yet allow us to move beyond the past race inequities because we have not taken the necessary steps to ensure the future will be any different.

I worked with officers who were great people and didn't have any racial prejudice, but they did have a bit of an attitude (which is another stigma of LE that I think is getting better) that made them feel the need to make sure they were in control. It wasn't a situation where any policy or human rights violation was being committed, but it was a lesser standard of patience and due care. Maybe instead of gently assisting someone off the ground in cuffs, it was a tug and a jerk because they just had to wrestle with the person for 5 minutes to get them cuffed. No blatant hitting, kicking or physical abuse, but a less courteous approach.

When it comes to Minneapolis specifically, I can only speak from what I know or saw personally through friends or colleagues who worked for that department because I did not work for them. I can tell you that it was one of the few departments in the state that I absolutely did not want to work for because there was a reputation I was not interested in being a part of. I think things have change a little, but the "joke" has always been that St. Paul was the clean and friendly PD to work for, but once you crossed the river beware. St. Paul has since had many of their own issues, but for the most part has maintained a better reputation.

When I was an intern in college, the agency I worked for did a search warrant on the residence of a drug dealer/gang member. This was a white male who lived in the basement of his parent's house. It was, to say lightly, a shit hole. This guy literally had a piss and shit bucket in the corner of the basement about 20 feet from their bed. During the search there was an MPD officer who I had come to know as a bit more aggressive in his attitude and approach that decided he'd had enough and just trashed the place worse than it needed to be. Searches of people's homes are usually disrupting enough and the goal is to try and leave it as much like you found it as possible, but that was not what he did. That along with the other things I'd heard about MPD told me all I needed to know about the type of officers that I would be working with if I chose to work there. Of course, not all MPD officers were or are that way, but it's also easy for small behaviors and attitudes to go unchecked which can lead to an overly toxic environment where even new officers can be unknowingly trained to respond the same way.

What I was most surprised about in the Floyd death is that MPD actually has a policy in place yet that allows for a knee to the back of the neck to be administered in any situation. I know it is a somewhat rare policy and is only allowed by officers specifically trained to administer it, but it reminds me a lot of the "sleeper hold" restraint that was discontinued years ago. I was originally trained on how to administer that, but most departments had policies in place that didn't allow it because it was so dangerous and if not done correctly could cause death. While a knee to the back of the neck generally isn't something that can restrict breathing or obstruct an airway, it just doesn't seem like a restraint method steeped in a lot of actual purpose and just looks bad. Generally placing a knee directly between the shoulder blades will be sufficient so I don't understand why a department, especially one that has had its share of excessive force issues, would not remove it as an accepted form of restraint.

Take it for what it's worth, but I think what I see in Mpls. is what you will find in any major metro area all over the country. There's a disparate amount of racial inequity, which leads to more frequent contact with police and in turn more situations where excessive force is being used. I don't have any answers. This incident has baffled me because it seems so apparent that the officers should have assessed the situation long before Floyd stopped breathing. Sure, people lie to the police and exaggerate the trauma or pain they are under all the time, but never have I seen someone be disregarded for so long. I can't imagine being one of the officers and not doing a physical assessment at any point, especially after he became motionless. At that point you know you're restraining a limp body. Figure it the fuck out and be a person.

Too many cops are trained to enforce the letter of the law and I think that is to their detriment because there are many situations where circumstances dictate that it's not in the best interest of public safety or even makes sense. Off the top of my head, I think of the recent arrest of the CNN team and then the next day a local news station photographer. That's where I can only assume that those cops were told "clear everyone out and arrest anyone who doesn't leave" so they did exactly that. Good cops need to be able to apply rational thought, but I think this is where training and education need to be improved and expanded. We need veteran training officers who have these abilities and knowledge and can instill it in younger officers. There will still be mistakes, but hopefully they will be fewer and far between.

I don't know. I just rambled on for a few paragraphs and I'm not sure any of it makes sense.

Thank you for this. (and apologies if the quote feature got fucked up yet again!)

brianlux

tempo_n_groove said:

So Antifa posted that they are going to "fuck up the city" tonight and then march into the Privileged areas.  Their twitter account has now been suspended.

Looting, robbery, destroying small businesses is harming the protest, most of which are peaceful.  Sacramento's J Street was hit hard yesterday.  That's where The Beat, a record store  where I used to shop for used LPs used to be, so I know the area pretty well.  There are several great little independent shops in the area.  Seeing so many of them being ransacked is more than sad.  It's infuriating.  The protests are great- very important at this time, very needed and most are legit and peaceful.  But the cretins doing the damage are screwing things up big time.  Some of these people are common thieves and some are white supremacists sabotaging the protests and stirring shit.

xavier mcdaniel

brianlux said:

tempo_n_groove said:

So Antifa posted that they are going to "fuck up the city" tonight and then march into the Privileged areas.  Their twitter account has now been suspended.

Looting, robbery, destroying small businesses is harming the protest, most of which are peaceful.  Sacramento's J Street was hit hard yesterday.  That's where The Beat, a record store  where I used to shop for used LPs used to be, so I know the area pretty well.  There are several great little independent shops in the area.  Seeing so many of them being ransacked is more than sad.  It's infuriating.  The protests are great- very important at this time, very needed and most are legit and peaceful.  But the cretins doing the damage are screwing things up big time.  Some of these people are common thieves and some are white supremacists sabotaging the protests and stirring shit.

I have absolutely no problem with these protests, which are mostly peaceful. The problem is the looting that comes with it and throwing things like Molotov cocktails into vehicles like one girl from upstate is alleged to have done in Brooklyn over the weekend. The protests are definitely needed to bring home the point of change being needed to happen and followed up on but looting anyone's business whether it is a small shop or a branch of a chain store is not acceptable, which is what anyone who posts they are going to "fuck up the city" intends to do. I'm not in law enforcement so I don't know how you stop anyone whose plans are to loot and not protest, but looting should not be a solution.

bbiggs

tempo_n_groove said:

So Antifa posted that they are going to "fuck up the city" tonight and then march into the Privileged areas.  Their twitter account has now been suspended.

Here it is...

bbiggs

A lot of these businesses being destroyed are already on life support from Covid lockdowns. It’s just awful. 

gimmesometruth27

bbiggs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

So Antifa posted that they are going to "fuck up the city" tonight and then march into the Privileged areas.  Their twitter account has now been suspended.

Here it is...

i don't buy this tweet for one second. i live 5 miles from ferguson. black lives matter is way smarter than this. this is some dumb boogaloo moron trying to instigate.

F Me In The Brain

Is that a joke?
Maters?
As in the tow truck from the kids movie, Cars?

mace1229

bbiggs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

So Antifa posted that they are going to "fuck up the city" tonight and then march into the Privileged areas.  Their twitter account has now been suspended.

Here it is...

I don’t care if it’s officially BLM, antifa or not. Any protestors with this mentality are no better than what they are pretending to protest. Targeting groups based on color....isn’t there a word for that?

gimmesometruth27

mace1229 said:

bbiggs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

So Antifa posted that they are going to "fuck up the city" tonight and then march into the Privileged areas.  Their twitter account has now been suspended.

Here it is...

I don’t care if it’s officially BLM, antifa or not. Any protestors with this mentality are no better than what they are pretending to protest. Targeting groups based on color....isn’t there a word for that?

i guarantee you this is some oathkeeper dickhead trying to smear the blm and antifa movement.

gimmesometruth27

mace1229 said:

bbiggs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

So Antifa posted that they are going to "fuck up the city" tonight and then march into the Privileged areas.  Their twitter account has now been suspended.

Here it is...

I don’t care if it’s officially BLM, antifa or not. Any protestors with this mentality are no better than what they are pretending to protest. Targeting groups based on color....isn’t there a word for that?

have you ever protested anything before? ever organized anything?

you do not spell it out in stupid explicit detail on the internet or post threats to scare white people. that invites guns and police and angry white people.

brianlux

gimmesometruth27 said:

mace1229 said:

bbiggs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

So Antifa posted that they are going to "fuck up the city" tonight and then march into the Privileged areas.  Their twitter account has now been suspended.

Here it is...

I don’t care if it’s officially BLM, antifa or not. Any protestors with this mentality are no better than what they are pretending to protest. Targeting groups based on color....isn’t there a word for that?

have you ever protested anything before? ever organized anything?

you do not spell it out in stupid explicit detail on the internet or post threats to scare white people. that invites guns and police and angry white people.

For sure.  It's hard as hell to keep protests on track and peaceful because there are almost all saboteurs who want to make it look bad and opportunists looking for an excuse to loot or steal.   And of course, the vast majority of protester are good people trying to make the world a better place.  Like these good ladies putting themselves between police and black protesters:

dignin

gimmesometruth27 said:

mace1229 said:

bbiggs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

So Antifa posted that they are going to "fuck up the city" tonight and then march into the Privileged areas.  Their twitter account has now been suspended.

Here it is...

I don’t care if it’s officially BLM, antifa or not. Any protestors with this mentality are no better than what they are pretending to protest. Targeting groups based on color....isn’t there a word for that?

i guarantee you this is some oathkeeper dickhead trying to smear the blm and antifa movement.

Or Russia. Could be anyone.

And people devoid of critical thought lap it up.

bbiggs

gimmesometruth27 said:

bbiggs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

So Antifa posted that they are going to "fuck up the city" tonight and then march into the Privileged areas.  Their twitter account has now been suspended.

Here it is...

i don't buy this tweet for one second. i live 5 miles from ferguson. black lives matter is way smarter than this. this is some dumb boogaloo moron trying to instigate.

No doubt that is a BS tweet. But that’s the stuff going on right now. For every one of us that sees through this, there’s someone who buys it and it riles things up even further. Fuel is getting dumped on the fire in many ways (literally and figuratively). 

mace1229

gimmesometruth27 said:

mace1229 said:

bbiggs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

So Antifa posted that they are going to "fuck up the city" tonight and then march into the Privileged areas.  Their twitter account has now been suspended.

Here it is...

I don’t care if it’s officially BLM, antifa or not. Any protestors with this mentality are no better than what they are pretending to protest. Targeting groups based on color....isn’t there a word for that?

have you ever protested anything before? ever organized anything?

you do not spell it out in stupid explicit detail on the internet or post threats to scare white people. that invites guns and police and angry white people.

I don’t get what this has to do with my comment. Anyone with that mentality is just as bad as what they are protesting about. Doesn’t matter if they are part of a group or not. And while I agree most don’t appear to be rioting, but I still see a lot promoting violence against whites and cops, and the destruction of private property. That tweet may not have been from an official organization, but I don’t doubt whoever sent it meant it.

bbiggs

The destruction of property is inexcusable.  It’s happening everywhere. The damn suburbs 30-40 miles outside the city are getting looted in my area. Small businesses are boarding up windows.  It’s despicable. 

brianlux

mace1229 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

mace1229 said:

bbiggs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

So Antifa posted that they are going to "fuck up the city" tonight and then march into the Privileged areas.  Their twitter account has now been suspended.

Here it is...

I don’t care if it’s officially BLM, antifa or not. Any protestors with this mentality are no better than what they are pretending to protest. Targeting groups based on color....isn’t there a word for that?

have you ever protested anything before? ever organized anything?

you do not spell it out in stupid explicit detail on the internet or post threats to scare white people. that invites guns and police and angry white people.

I don’t get what this has to do with my comment. Anyone with that mentality is just as bad as what they are protesting about. Doesn’t matter if they are part of a group or not. And while I agree most don’t appear to be rioting, but I still see a lot promoting violence against whites and cops, and the destruction of private property. That tweet may not have been from an official organization, but I don’t doubt whoever sent it meant it.

I agree that the destruction is harmful to the cause and promoting violence against cops- black or white- is wrong but remember, most protesters are not about that.  Most of them are outraged by the racism and discrimination that exists in some sectors of persons within law enforcement and are out there trying to get the message across.  White supremacists want you to think there are massive numbers of these haters out there.  Much of the media wants to show you the violent sideshow of the protests because sensationalism sells.  The true protests are essential and right on.  Don't get sucked in by those who sabotage the message. 

Halifax2TheMax

Russian troll farms, white nationalists/supremacists, Proud Boys, BLM, ANTIFA, radical leftists, etc., meh, they’re all the same. FFS.

mcgruff10

@tbergs what you said makes a lot of sense and I definitely learned much.  Thank you for your insightful response, I really do appreciate it. 

hedonist

I saw many races setting fires and stealing shit here the last couple days and nights. This isn’t necessarily a white supremacist thing, to me it’s mostly about opportunism and a complete lack of conscience. 

mace1229

brianlux said:

mace1229 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

mace1229 said:

bbiggs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

So Antifa posted that they are going to "fuck up the city" tonight and then march into the Privileged areas.  Their twitter account has now been suspended.

Here it is...

I don’t care if it’s officially BLM, antifa or not. Any protestors with this mentality are no better than what they are pretending to protest. Targeting groups based on color....isn’t there a word for that?

have you ever protested anything before? ever organized anything?

you do not spell it out in stupid explicit detail on the internet or post threats to scare white people. that invites guns and police and angry white people.

I don’t get what this has to do with my comment. Anyone with that mentality is just as bad as what they are protesting about. Doesn’t matter if they are part of a group or not. And while I agree most don’t appear to be rioting, but I still see a lot promoting violence against whites and cops, and the destruction of private property. That tweet may not have been from an official organization, but I don’t doubt whoever sent it meant it.

I agree that the destruction is harmful to the cause and promoting violence against cops- black or white- is wrong but remember, most protesters are not about that.  Most of them are outraged by the racism and discrimination that exists in some sectors of persons within law enforcement and are out there trying to get the message across.  White supremacists want you to think there are massive numbers of these haters out there.  Much of the media wants to show you the violent sideshow of the protests because sensationalism sells.  The true protests are essential and right on.  Don't get sucked in by those who sabotage the message. 

Ahh, so the thinking is that tweet and message was put out by white people wanting you to think the riots and protestors are worse than they are?
That could be the case, but I still have no doubt that some percentage of protestors feel the way that tweet was written.

brianlux

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

mace1229 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

mace1229 said:

bbiggs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

So Antifa posted that they are going to "fuck up the city" tonight and then march into the Privileged areas.  Their twitter account has now been suspended.

Here it is...

I don’t care if it’s officially BLM, antifa or not. Any protestors with this mentality are no better than what they are pretending to protest. Targeting groups based on color....isn’t there a word for that?

have you ever protested anything before? ever organized anything?

you do not spell it out in stupid explicit detail on the internet or post threats to scare white people. that invites guns and police and angry white people.

I don’t get what this has to do with my comment. Anyone with that mentality is just as bad as what they are protesting about. Doesn’t matter if they are part of a group or not. And while I agree most don’t appear to be rioting, but I still see a lot promoting violence against whites and cops, and the destruction of private property. That tweet may not have been from an official organization, but I don’t doubt whoever sent it meant it.

I agree that the destruction is harmful to the cause and promoting violence against cops- black or white- is wrong but remember, most protesters are not about that.  Most of them are outraged by the racism and discrimination that exists in some sectors of persons within law enforcement and are out there trying to get the message across.  White supremacists want you to think there are massive numbers of these haters out there.  Much of the media wants to show you the violent sideshow of the protests because sensationalism sells.  The true protests are essential and right on.  Don't get sucked in by those who sabotage the message. 

Ahh, so the thinking is that tweet and message was put out by white people wanting you to think the riots and protestors are worse than they are?
That could be the case, but I still have no doubt that some percentage of protestors feel the way that tweet was written.

Well yeah, some percentage of the people mingling with the peaceful protesters are destructive haters.   A small percentage are radical haters, yeah.  But surely that is not the majority.  I'm not focused on the small percentage of people causing damage and doing harm.  I'm focused on the large majority who are speaking out against racism and injustice.  They are the ones I stand with.

g under p

hedonist said:

I saw many races setting fires and stealing shit here the last couple days and nights. This isn’t necessarily a white supremacist thing, to me it’s mostly about opportunism and a complete lack of conscience. 

Also a perfect storm of the COVID19 virus, economy shutdown then millions suddenly unemployed and guess one could add being cooped up for weeks. America is NOT looking great right now.

Peace

hedonist

g under p said:

hedonist said:

I saw many races setting fires and stealing shit here the last couple days and nights. This isn’t necessarily a white supremacist thing, to me it’s mostly about opportunism and a complete lack of conscience. 

Also a perfect storm of the COVID19 virus, economy shutdown then millions suddenly unemployed and guess one could add being cooped up for weeks. America is NOT looking great right now.

Peace

No, it’s not. Setting fires to random businesses is the way to go!

Obviously I support the protests themselves (does it even need to be said at this point?) but the damage caused (and people injured) in the process is over the top and fucked up. 

dankind

hedonist said:

g under p said:

hedonist said:

I saw many races setting fires and stealing shit here the last couple days and nights. This isn’t necessarily a white supremacist thing, to me it’s mostly about opportunism and a complete lack of conscience. 

Also a perfect storm of the COVID19 virus, economy shutdown then millions suddenly unemployed and guess one could add being cooped up for weeks. America is NOT looking great right now.

Peace

No, it’s not. Setting fires to random businesses is the way to go!

Obviously I support the protests themselves (does it even need to be said at this point?) but the damage caused (and people injured) in the process is over the top and fucked up. 

America has never looked great in my lifetime. Can’t wait to leave it. I’ll sure as hell never love it. 

hedonist

dankind said:

hedonist said:

g under p said:

hedonist said:

I saw many races setting fires and stealing shit here the last couple days and nights. This isn’t necessarily a white supremacist thing, to me it’s mostly about opportunism and a complete lack of conscience. 

Also a perfect storm of the COVID19 virus, economy shutdown then millions suddenly unemployed and guess one could add being cooped up for weeks. America is NOT looking great right now.

Peace

No, it’s not. Setting fires to random businesses is the way to go!

Obviously I support the protests themselves (does it even need to be said at this point?) but the damage caused (and people injured) in the process is over the top and fucked up. 

America has never looked great in my lifetime. Can’t wait to leave it. I’ll sure as hell never love it. 

I love it for what my immigrant parents were afforded, and passed on to me (not materially). I hear you though, DK. 

cincybearcat

dankind said:

hedonist said:

g under p said:

hedonist said:

I saw many races setting fires and stealing shit here the last couple days and nights. This isn’t necessarily a white supremacist thing, to me it’s mostly about opportunism and a complete lack of conscience. 

Also a perfect storm of the COVID19 virus, economy shutdown then millions suddenly unemployed and guess one could add being cooped up for weeks. America is NOT looking great right now.

Peace

No, it’s not. Setting fires to random businesses is the way to go!

Obviously I support the protests themselves (does it even need to be said at this point?) but the damage caused (and people injured) in the process is over the top and fucked up. 

America has never looked great in my lifetime. Can’t wait to leave it. I’ll sure as hell never love it. 

Why haven’t you left? Saving up?

Mike D88

bbiggs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

So Antifa posted that they are going to "fuck up the city" tonight and then march into the Privileged areas.  Their twitter account has now been suspended.

Here it is...

mace1229 said:

I don’t care if it’s officially BLM, antifa or not. Any protestors with this mentality are no better than what they are pretending to protest. Targeting groups based on color....isn’t there a word for that?

False flag from a white nationalist group. Thanks for the hot take though.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/twitter-takes-down-washington-protest-disinformation-bot-behavior-n1221456

A Twitter account claiming to belong to a national “antifa” organization and pushing violent rhetoric related to ongoing protests has been linked to the white nationalist group Identity Evropa, according to a Twitter spokesperson.

mace1229

Mike D88 said:

bbiggs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

So Antifa posted that they are going to "fuck up the city" tonight and then march into the Privileged areas.  Their twitter account has now been suspended.

Here it is...

mace1229 said:

I don’t care if it’s officially BLM, antifa or not. Any protestors with this mentality are no better than what they are pretending to protest. Targeting groups based on color....isn’t there a word for that?

False flag from a white nationalist group. Thanks for the hot take though.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/twitter-takes-down-washington-protest-disinformation-bot-behavior-n1221456

A Twitter account claiming to belong to a national “antifa” organization and pushing violent rhetoric related to ongoing protests has been linked to the white nationalist group Identity Evropa, according to a Twitter spokesperson.

How does that change what I said? I said I don’t care if it’s them or not. Some, not all or even most, but some protestors are openly saying the same thing while marching. You haven’t heard chants of “kill white people” or “kill cops”?  Even some on this forum were openly promoting to physically beat random cops.

Again, not most, but it’s out there. And those people are just as bad as what they are protesting.

tbergs

mace1229 said:

Mike D88 said:

bbiggs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

So Antifa posted that they are going to "fuck up the city" tonight and then march into the Privileged areas.  Their twitter account has now been suspended.

Here it is...

mace1229 said:

I don’t care if it’s officially BLM, antifa or not. Any protestors with this mentality are no better than what they are pretending to protest. Targeting groups based on color....isn’t there a word for that?

False flag from a white nationalist group. Thanks for the hot take though.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/twitter-takes-down-washington-protest-disinformation-bot-behavior-n1221456

A Twitter account claiming to belong to a national “antifa” organization and pushing violent rhetoric related to ongoing protests has been linked to the white nationalist group Identity Evropa, according to a Twitter spokesperson.

How does that change what I said? I said I don’t care if it’s them or not. Some, not all or even most, but some protestors are openly saying the same thing while marching. You haven’t heard chants of “kill white people” or “kill cops”?  Even some on this forum were openly promoting to physically beat random cops.

Again, not most, but it’s out there. And those people are just as bad as what they are protesting.

Have there been any actual confirmed reports of chants during any of these protests/riots to "kill white people" or "kill cops"? I haven't seen or heard that.

Mike D88

"Violence is bad, do you agree?"