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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,510
    dankind said:
    brianlux said:
    I have still not found my close-to-perfect turntable.  My parameters are thus:

    Total absolute maximum cost including tax and shipping, $1500 US.
    -Very minimal to no motor noise.
    -Ability to switch between 45 RPM and 33 1/3 without lifting the platter.
    -Quality queuing lever.
    -Relatively easy to use tone arm finger grip.
    -No built in pre-amp. (Prefer to plug direct into my Marantz PM5005 phono port).
    -Removable/ lift-able dust cover.
    -Ortophon red cartridge.
    -Piano black plinth.

    However...   in the meantime, I have been able to improve the sound/ play-ability of my Project Carbon Debut hugely by removing the motor hold down screws and washers such that the motor is suspended by the rectangular o-ring. The thumping noise the motor was making is all but gone. After all this time- what a difference!  This relatively easy modification will allow me plenty of time to keep my eyes open for something more to my liking.  For now, I'm enjoying my records just fine!


    I’d love to check out one of these. 


    I haven't looked very closely at Thorens.  Looks like I need to check them out more thoroughly.  My only surprise here though is that the TD-240 come with an Ortofon 2M Red.  For a TT that lists at $1299, that seems like an inferior cartridge.

    And herein begins a very tricky rabbit hole in which I have found myself falling into:  The big WHAT CARTRIDGE? dilemma.  I have an Ortofon 2M on my Pro-ject Carbon Debut and the more research I've done, the more I'm thinking that beside a TT upgrade, I would do well to look into a better cart.  (And yes, I am back to looking for a new turntable.  After removing the shipping screws, the motor noise on the Carbon Debut did indeed cease, but now I have a very feelable vibration in the tone arm.  This damn Pro-ject has to go!)

    My first consideration has been to go with a Technics SL1500C (comes stock with the 2M red) and upgrade to an Ortofon 2M Blue but I'm not sure that's a good choice.  I have read that the 2M blue rather bright and I am high pitch sensitive such that I'd like something more warm or "lush" sounding.  I've read about the Denon DL-103R being an excellent, warm sounding cart but then you get into all kinds of snags like "if the stylus it worn, you can't just replace it like you can with an Ortofon"?  I read that it has to be "retipped", whatever that means.  And "is it compatible with my Marantz tuner?".  And "and I looking at something too high end to match with the Marantz int he first place?"

    It all soooooo confusing!!!
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • dankinddankind I am not your foot. Posts: 18,150
    brianlux said:
    dankind said:
    brianlux said:
    I have still not found my close-to-perfect turntable.  My parameters are thus:

    Total absolute maximum cost including tax and shipping, $1500 US.
    -Very minimal to no motor noise.
    -Ability to switch between 45 RPM and 33 1/3 without lifting the platter.
    -Quality queuing lever.
    -Relatively easy to use tone arm finger grip.
    -No built in pre-amp. (Prefer to plug direct into my Marantz PM5005 phono port).
    -Removable/ lift-able dust cover.
    -Ortophon red cartridge.
    -Piano black plinth.

    However...   in the meantime, I have been able to improve the sound/ play-ability of my Project Carbon Debut hugely by removing the motor hold down screws and washers such that the motor is suspended by the rectangular o-ring. The thumping noise the motor was making is all but gone. After all this time- what a difference!  This relatively easy modification will allow me plenty of time to keep my eyes open for something more to my liking.  For now, I'm enjoying my records just fine!


    I’d love to check out one of these. 


    I haven't looked very closely at Thorens.  Looks like I need to check them out more thoroughly.  My only surprise here though is that the TD-240 come with an Ortofon 2M Red.  For a TT that lists at $1299, that seems like an inferior cartridge.

    And herein begins a very tricky rabbit hole in which I have found myself falling into:  The big WHAT CARTRIDGE? dilemma.  I have an Ortofon 2M on my Pro-ject Carbon Debut and the more research I've done, the more I'm thinking that beside a TT upgrade, I would do well to look into a better cart.  (And yes, I am back to looking for a new turntable.  After removing the shipping screws, the motor noise on the Carbon Debut did indeed cease, but now I have a very feelable vibration in the tone arm.  This damn Pro-ject has to go!)

    My first consideration has been to go with a Technics SL1500C (comes stock with the 2M red) and upgrade to an Ortofon 2M Blue but I'm not sure that's a good choice.  I have read that the 2M blue rather bright and I am high pitch sensitive such that I'd like something more warm or "lush" sounding.  I've read about the Denon DL-103R being an excellent, warm sounding cart but then you get into all kinds of snags like "if the stylus it worn, you can't just replace it like you can with an Ortofon"?  I read that it has to be "retipped", whatever that means.  And "is it compatible with my Marantz tuner?".  And "and I looking at something too high end to match with the Marantz int he first place?"

    It all soooooo confusing!!!
    I got a free Thorens off of CL a few years back, and I love it enough to buy a higher-end model when the time comes. It took a while to get accustomed to a few interesting features (floating/suspended chassis; it's kind of like putting your record on a surfboard) and something that looks like it came out of a fishing tackle box for the anti-skate, but it is just so quiet (that weird floating/suspended chassis thing) and worry free. Give 'em a listen. 

    Also, Turntable Lab will pretty much supply/upgrade a turntable with any type of cartridge, etc., they carry in stock; perhaps a West Coast hi-fi outfit does the same. Blue gets all the love from the Ortofon folks.
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,510
    edited March 9
    dankind said:
    brianlux said:
    dankind said:
    brianlux said:
    I have still not found my close-to-perfect turntable.  My parameters are thus:

    Total absolute maximum cost including tax and shipping, $1500 US.
    -Very minimal to no motor noise.
    -Ability to switch between 45 RPM and 33 1/3 without lifting the platter.
    -Quality queuing lever.
    -Relatively easy to use tone arm finger grip.
    -No built in pre-amp. (Prefer to plug direct into my Marantz PM5005 phono port).
    -Removable/ lift-able dust cover.
    -Ortophon red cartridge.
    -Piano black plinth.

    However...   in the meantime, I have been able to improve the sound/ play-ability of my Project Carbon Debut hugely by removing the motor hold down screws and washers such that the motor is suspended by the rectangular o-ring. The thumping noise the motor was making is all but gone. After all this time- what a difference!  This relatively easy modification will allow me plenty of time to keep my eyes open for something more to my liking.  For now, I'm enjoying my records just fine!


    I’d love to check out one of these. 


    I haven't looked very closely at Thorens.  Looks like I need to check them out more thoroughly.  My only surprise here though is that the TD-240 come with an Ortofon 2M Red.  For a TT that lists at $1299, that seems like an inferior cartridge.

    And herein begins a very tricky rabbit hole in which I have found myself falling into:  The big WHAT CARTRIDGE? dilemma.  I have an Ortofon 2M on my Pro-ject Carbon Debut and the more research I've done, the more I'm thinking that beside a TT upgrade, I would do well to look into a better cart.  (And yes, I am back to looking for a new turntable.  After removing the shipping screws, the motor noise on the Carbon Debut did indeed cease, but now I have a very feelable vibration in the tone arm.  This damn Pro-ject has to go!)

    My first consideration has been to go with a Technics SL1500C (comes stock with the 2M red) and upgrade to an Ortofon 2M Blue but I'm not sure that's a good choice.  I have read that the 2M blue rather bright and I am high pitch sensitive such that I'd like something more warm or "lush" sounding.  I've read about the Denon DL-103R being an excellent, warm sounding cart but then you get into all kinds of snags like "if the stylus it worn, you can't just replace it like you can with an Ortofon"?  I read that it has to be "retipped", whatever that means.  And "is it compatible with my Marantz tuner?".  And "and I looking at something too high end to match with the Marantz int he first place?"

    It all soooooo confusing!!!
    I got a free Thorens off of CL a few years back, and I love it enough to buy a higher-end model when the time comes. It took a while to get accustomed to a few interesting features (floating/suspended chassis; it's kind of like putting your record on a surfboard) and something that looks like it came out of a fishing tackle box for the anti-skate, but it is just so quiet (that weird floating/suspended chassis thing) and worry free. Give 'em a listen. 

    Also, Turntable Lab will pretty much supply/upgrade a turntable with any type of cartridge, etc., they carry in stock; perhaps a West Coast hi-fi outfit does the same. Blue gets all the love from the Ortofon folks.

    Thanks, I'll check further into Thorens.  May not work for me as it appears Thorens requires a pre-amp which means more money and more stuff.  I want to be able to plug right into my Marantz PM5005 tuner.  Drat!

    This search just keeping getting more frustrating.  Earlier today I was looking into Rega models again and read a bunch of stuff that had me convinced that a Rega Planar 1 or 2 or 3 were only going to lead me down a path of varying upgrades and that the best thing to do was break my budget a lot further open, suck it up, and go with the Planar 6.  And then I saw this:


    See the two photos on the first page (post #14 and #18).  This is what $2000 bucks get you?

    Hit it, Neil!

    Saw it on the tube, bought in on the phone, then I got it home, it's a....

    Post edited by brianlux on
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • GlowGirlGlowGirl New York, NYPosts: 3,267
    brianlux said:
    dankind said:
    brianlux said:
    dankind said:
    brianlux said:
    I have still not found my close-to-perfect turntable.  My parameters are thus:

    Total absolute maximum cost including tax and shipping, $1500 US.
    -Very minimal to no motor noise.
    -Ability to switch between 45 RPM and 33 1/3 without lifting the platter.
    -Quality queuing lever.
    -Relatively easy to use tone arm finger grip.
    -No built in pre-amp. (Prefer to plug direct into my Marantz PM5005 phono port).
    -Removable/ lift-able dust cover.
    -Ortophon red cartridge.
    -Piano black plinth.

    However...   in the meantime, I have been able to improve the sound/ play-ability of my Project Carbon Debut hugely by removing the motor hold down screws and washers such that the motor is suspended by the rectangular o-ring. The thumping noise the motor was making is all but gone. After all this time- what a difference!  This relatively easy modification will allow me plenty of time to keep my eyes open for something more to my liking.  For now, I'm enjoying my records just fine!


    I’d love to check out one of these. 


    I haven't looked very closely at Thorens.  Looks like I need to check them out more thoroughly.  My only surprise here though is that the TD-240 come with an Ortofon 2M Red.  For a TT that lists at $1299, that seems like an inferior cartridge.

    And herein begins a very tricky rabbit hole in which I have found myself falling into:  The big WHAT CARTRIDGE? dilemma.  I have an Ortofon 2M on my Pro-ject Carbon Debut and the more research I've done, the more I'm thinking that beside a TT upgrade, I would do well to look into a better cart.  (And yes, I am back to looking for a new turntable.  After removing the shipping screws, the motor noise on the Carbon Debut did indeed cease, but now I have a very feelable vibration in the tone arm.  This damn Pro-ject has to go!)

    My first consideration has been to go with a Technics SL1500C (comes stock with the 2M red) and upgrade to an Ortofon 2M Blue but I'm not sure that's a good choice.  I have read that the 2M blue rather bright and I am high pitch sensitive such that I'd like something more warm or "lush" sounding.  I've read about the Denon DL-103R being an excellent, warm sounding cart but then you get into all kinds of snags like "if the stylus it worn, you can't just replace it like you can with an Ortofon"?  I read that it has to be "retipped", whatever that means.  And "is it compatible with my Marantz tuner?".  And "and I looking at something too high end to match with the Marantz int he first place?"

    It all soooooo confusing!!!
    I got a free Thorens off of CL a few years back, and I love it enough to buy a higher-end model when the time comes. It took a while to get accustomed to a few interesting features (floating/suspended chassis; it's kind of like putting your record on a surfboard) and something that looks like it came out of a fishing tackle box for the anti-skate, but it is just so quiet (that weird floating/suspended chassis thing) and worry free. Give 'em a listen. 

    Also, Turntable Lab will pretty much supply/upgrade a turntable with any type of cartridge, etc., they carry in stock; perhaps a West Coast hi-fi outfit does the same. Blue gets all the love from the Ortofon folks.

    Thanks, I'll check further into Thorens.  May not work for me as it appears Thorens requires a pre-amp which means more money and more stuff.  I want to be able to plug right into my Marantz PM5005 tuner.  Drat!

    This search just keeping getting more frustrating.  Earlier today I was looking into Rega models again and read a bunch of stuff that had me convinced that a Rega Planar 1 or 2 or 3 were only going to lead me down a path of varying upgrades and that the best thing to do was break my budget a lot further open, suck it up, and go with the Planar 6.  And then I saw this:


    See the two photos on the first page (post #14 and #18).  This is what $2000 bucks get you?

    Hit it, Neil!

    Saw it on the tube, bought in on the phone, then I got it home, it's a....

    The Thorens TD 102-A appears to have a built in preamp. Have you checked that one out?
  • dankinddankind I am not your foot. Posts: 18,150
    Brian, your Marantz doesn't have a phono stage? If it has a phono stage, you don't need a preamp. If you're using the aux, then, yes, you'll need a preamp.
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,510
    edited March 9
    dankind said:
    Brian, your Marantz doesn't have a phono stage? If it has a phono stage, you don't need a preamp. If you're using the aux, then, yes, you'll need a preamp.

    It does indeed!  Late last night, after I saw your other post here, I found an article about phono stages and realized I have that on the Marantz and don't need a pre-amp.  I'm leaning toward the Technics SL-1500C but still considering Thorens.  Thanks for your input, Dankind!  :smile:
    GlowGirl said:
    brianlux said:
    dankind said:
    brianlux said:
    dankind said:
    brianlux said:
    I have still not found my close-to-perfect turntable.  My parameters are thus:

    Total absolute maximum cost including tax and shipping, $1500 US.
    -Very minimal to no motor noise.
    -Ability to switch between 45 RPM and 33 1/3 without lifting the platter.
    -Quality queuing lever.
    -Relatively easy to use tone arm finger grip.
    -No built in pre-amp. (Prefer to plug direct into my Marantz PM5005 phono port).
    -Removable/ lift-able dust cover.
    -Ortophon red cartridge.
    -Piano black plinth.

    However...   in the meantime, I have been able to improve the sound/ play-ability of my Project Carbon Debut hugely by removing the motor hold down screws and washers such that the motor is suspended by the rectangular o-ring. The thumping noise the motor was making is all but gone. After all this time- what a difference!  This relatively easy modification will allow me plenty of time to keep my eyes open for something more to my liking.  For now, I'm enjoying my records just fine!


    I’d love to check out one of these. 


    I haven't looked very closely at Thorens.  Looks like I need to check them out more thoroughly.  My only surprise here though is that the TD-240 come with an Ortofon 2M Red.  For a TT that lists at $1299, that seems like an inferior cartridge.

    And herein begins a very tricky rabbit hole in which I have found myself falling into:  The big WHAT CARTRIDGE? dilemma.  I have an Ortofon 2M on my Pro-ject Carbon Debut and the more research I've done, the more I'm thinking that beside a TT upgrade, I would do well to look into a better cart.  (And yes, I am back to looking for a new turntable.  After removing the shipping screws, the motor noise on the Carbon Debut did indeed cease, but now I have a very feelable vibration in the tone arm.  This damn Pro-ject has to go!)

    My first consideration has been to go with a Technics SL1500C (comes stock with the 2M red) and upgrade to an Ortofon 2M Blue but I'm not sure that's a good choice.  I have read that the 2M blue rather bright and I am high pitch sensitive such that I'd like something more warm or "lush" sounding.  I've read about the Denon DL-103R being an excellent, warm sounding cart but then you get into all kinds of snags like "if the stylus it worn, you can't just replace it like you can with an Ortofon"?  I read that it has to be "retipped", whatever that means.  And "is it compatible with my Marantz tuner?".  And "and I looking at something too high end to match with the Marantz int he first place?"

    It all soooooo confusing!!!
    I got a free Thorens off of CL a few years back, and I love it enough to buy a higher-end model when the time comes. It took a while to get accustomed to a few interesting features (floating/suspended chassis; it's kind of like putting your record on a surfboard) and something that looks like it came out of a fishing tackle box for the anti-skate, but it is just so quiet (that weird floating/suspended chassis thing) and worry free. Give 'em a listen. 

    Also, Turntable Lab will pretty much supply/upgrade a turntable with any type of cartridge, etc., they carry in stock; perhaps a West Coast hi-fi outfit does the same. Blue gets all the love from the Ortofon folks.

    Thanks, I'll check further into Thorens.  May not work for me as it appears Thorens requires a pre-amp which means more money and more stuff.  I want to be able to plug right into my Marantz PM5005 tuner.  Drat!

    This search just keeping getting more frustrating.  Earlier today I was looking into Rega models again and read a bunch of stuff that had me convinced that a Rega Planar 1 or 2 or 3 were only going to lead me down a path of varying upgrades and that the best thing to do was break my budget a lot further open, suck it up, and go with the Planar 6.  And then I saw this:


    See the two photos on the first page (post #14 and #18).  This is what $2000 bucks get you?

    Hit it, Neil!

    Saw it on the tube, bought in on the phone, then I got it home, it's a....

    The Thorens TD 102-A appears to have a built in preamp. Have you checked that one out?

    I did, thank!  It looks like a new model and I couldn't find much in the way of reviews but will consider it.  :smile: 
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,510
    After a TON of research, I finally decided to go with the Technics SL-1500C and made the call. 
    "Sorry, out of stock."
    And another call.
    "Sorry, back-ordered."
    And another call.
    "Sorry, no gots."

    Sheesh! :grimacing:
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • BB162610BB162610 Upstate NYPosts: 442
    brianlux said:
    After a TON of research, I finally decided to go with the Technics SL-1500C and made the call. 
    "Sorry, out of stock."
    And another call.
    "Sorry, back-ordered."
    And another call.
    "Sorry, no gots."

    Sheesh! :grimacing:
    When I was ordering gear from my dealer recently, they mentioned how hard Technics has been hit due to the pandemic and it’s very difficult to get their products right now. 
  • dankinddankind I am not your foot. Posts: 18,150
    Hey, @brianlux , it's me, your Thorens pusher again.

    How you doing, buddy? Jonesin' for a noiseless motor and an incredible soundstage? 

    I know how it is, pal. I've been there. But not anymore. Because I found Thorens. :lol:

    You want user friendly. As long as you use, Thorens will be friendly. :wink:
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,510
    BB162610 said:
    brianlux said:
    After a TON of research, I finally decided to go with the Technics SL-1500C and made the call. 
    "Sorry, out of stock."
    And another call.
    "Sorry, back-ordered."
    And another call.
    "Sorry, no gots."

    Sheesh! :grimacing:
    When I was ordering gear from my dealer recently, they mentioned how hard Technics has been hit due to the pandemic and it’s very difficult to get their products right now. 
    Yeah, I talk to a couple of reps from three different companies and they're all saying Technics probably won't be shipping until summer or maybe even early fall.  One guy said that electronics in general have been hard hot due to pandemic factors.

    dankind said:
    Hey, @brianlux , it's me, your Thorens pusher again.

    How you doing, buddy? Jonesin' for a noiseless motor and an incredible soundstage? 

    I know how it is, pal. I've been there. But not anymore. Because I found Thorens. :lol:

    You want user friendly. As long as you use, Thorens will be friendly. :wink:

    Good to know.  I talked to a tech from Music Direct yesterday and explained what was going on with my Pro-ject Carbon Debut.  Once I removed the shipping screws, the thumping motor noise stopped.  I sometimes can feel a fine vibration in the tone arm but the tech told me that was not going to hurt anything.  He said the carbon fiber arm is light and thus transmits some of the energy and that I should just use the cuing lever and not worry about it.

    With that in mind, I figure it buys me time to look at both the Thorens and the Technics.  Both of them will have a big advantage over the Carbon Debut:  No more lifting the platter to change speeds.  What I don't know is weather I would like the Thorens' Audio Technica AT VM95E cartidge (which I haven't heard) over the Ortofon 2M Red (which is what I have on the Carbon Debut) or the Red upgrade, Ortofon 2M Blue (which I also have not heard).

    So many choices to make!  But now,at least, I feel like I have time to do more research. 

    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • dankinddankind I am not your foot. Posts: 18,150
    brianlux said:
    BB162610 said:
    brianlux said:
    After a TON of research, I finally decided to go with the Technics SL-1500C and made the call. 
    "Sorry, out of stock."
    And another call.
    "Sorry, back-ordered."
    And another call.
    "Sorry, no gots."

    Sheesh! :grimacing:
    When I was ordering gear from my dealer recently, they mentioned how hard Technics has been hit due to the pandemic and it’s very difficult to get their products right now. 
    Yeah, I talk to a couple of reps from three different companies and they're all saying Technics probably won't be shipping until summer or maybe even early fall.  One guy said that electronics in general have been hard hot due to pandemic factors.

    dankind said:
    Hey, @brianlux , it's me, your Thorens pusher again.

    How you doing, buddy? Jonesin' for a noiseless motor and an incredible soundstage? 

    I know how it is, pal. I've been there. But not anymore. Because I found Thorens. :lol:

    You want user friendly. As long as you use, Thorens will be friendly. :wink:

    Good to know.  I talked to a tech from Music Direct yesterday and explained what was going on with my Pro-ject Carbon Debut.  Once I removed the shipping screws, the thumping motor noise stopped.  I sometimes can feel a fine vibration in the tone arm but the tech told me that was not going to hurt anything.  He said the carbon fiber arm is light and thus transmits some of the energy and that I should just use the cuing lever and not worry about it.

    With that in mind, I figure it buys me time to look at both the Thorens and the Technics.  Both of them will have a big advantage over the Carbon Debut:  No more lifting the platter to change speeds.  What I don't know is weather I would like the Thorens' Audio Technica AT VM95E cartidge (which I haven't heard) over the Ortofon 2M Red (which is what I have on the Carbon Debut) or the Red upgrade, Ortofon 2M Blue (which I also have not heard).

    So many choices to make!  But now,at least, I feel like I have time to do more research. 

    I have read that the Ortofon Blue (so an upgrade, greedy bastiges!) pairs well with the the two Thorens models listed above. I have no experience with Ortofon cartridges myself (my Thorens came with a Grado on it, which I enjoy). I do have experience with that AT cartridge, though, since that was stocked with my AT table when I bought it new. That cartridge is a great listening cartridge that sounds nice almost right out of the box, but I will say that I have two other tables in the rotation that handle hot spots and the occasional warp a lot better than the AT. I don't know whether to blame that on the cartridge or the featherlight tonearm, though. Might even be the doofus who set it up. :lol:
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,510
    dankind said:
    brianlux said:
    BB162610 said:
    brianlux said:
    After a TON of research, I finally decided to go with the Technics SL-1500C and made the call. 
    "Sorry, out of stock."
    And another call.
    "Sorry, back-ordered."
    And another call.
    "Sorry, no gots."

    Sheesh! :grimacing:
    When I was ordering gear from my dealer recently, they mentioned how hard Technics has been hit due to the pandemic and it’s very difficult to get their products right now. 
    Yeah, I talk to a couple of reps from three different companies and they're all saying Technics probably won't be shipping until summer or maybe even early fall.  One guy said that electronics in general have been hard hot due to pandemic factors.

    dankind said:
    Hey, @brianlux , it's me, your Thorens pusher again.

    How you doing, buddy? Jonesin' for a noiseless motor and an incredible soundstage? 

    I know how it is, pal. I've been there. But not anymore. Because I found Thorens. :lol:

    You want user friendly. As long as you use, Thorens will be friendly. :wink:

    Good to know.  I talked to a tech from Music Direct yesterday and explained what was going on with my Pro-ject Carbon Debut.  Once I removed the shipping screws, the thumping motor noise stopped.  I sometimes can feel a fine vibration in the tone arm but the tech told me that was not going to hurt anything.  He said the carbon fiber arm is light and thus transmits some of the energy and that I should just use the cuing lever and not worry about it.

    With that in mind, I figure it buys me time to look at both the Thorens and the Technics.  Both of them will have a big advantage over the Carbon Debut:  No more lifting the platter to change speeds.  What I don't know is weather I would like the Thorens' Audio Technica AT VM95E cartidge (which I haven't heard) over the Ortofon 2M Red (which is what I have on the Carbon Debut) or the Red upgrade, Ortofon 2M Blue (which I also have not heard).

    So many choices to make!  But now,at least, I feel like I have time to do more research. 

    I have read that the Ortofon Blue (so an upgrade, greedy bastiges!) pairs well with the the two Thorens models listed above. I have no experience with Ortofon cartridges myself (my Thorens came with a Grado on it, which I enjoy). I do have experience with that AT cartridge, though, since that was stocked with my AT table when I bought it new. That cartridge is a great listening cartridge that sounds nice almost right out of the box, but I will say that I have two other tables in the rotation that handle hot spots and the occasional warp a lot better than the AT. I don't know whether to blame that on the cartridge or the featherlight tonearm, though. Might even be the doofus who set it up. :lol:

    Oh, great, now you give me more options to have to juggle and consider.  :lol:

    No, seriously, I do appreciate the info!  I will keep reading! :smiley:
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 21,888
    edited March 14
    its not an irreversable decision Brian....

    either table or cartridge
    Post edited by mickeyrat on
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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,510
    mickeyrat said:
    its not an irreversable decision Brian....

    either table or cartridge

    True, the decision is not totally reversible, for sure.  I'm not poor and, at least according to my wife,  I don't have worry about going belly up, but with my decreasing ability to sustain a level income in a world of escalating cost and expenses (my internet fees, for example, which, with no alternative available, have currently tripled), I find it wise to choose on what and for what and how much I spend on something like a turntable.  But, like food, clothing, and shelter, to me music is an essential, so the decision still looms while I weigh my options. 
    Meanwhile, the Pro-ject Carbon Debut appears to still be usable.  Thank the musical heavens!
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,510
    edited May 9
    After literally years of researching and stewing over what to upgrade my Project Carbon debut with red Ortofon cartridge, I got this email from Crutchfield saying that they had a small, limited number of Technics SL-1500C turntables with Red Ortofon cart come in, was I interested?  So I jumped on it.  Got it set up today and was kind of bummed to find that the only auditory difference to me was that the Technics seems just a tiny fraction less forward sounding and on some of the highs seem more bright (not a welcome feature for my trashed ears).  Otherwise, they seem fairly similar to me.
    Sheesh, $1200 bucks for that? 
    I had my wife sit down and do a listening test and she kindly obliged. I am more pitch sensitive from having hyperacusis, so it seemed like a good idea to try a side-by-side test on someone with good hearing.  I asked her to not change position while listening. I asked her to listen for things like dynamics, loudness, pitch, clarity, and presence.
    First,  I played a more punchy rock tune on the Technics, The Dream Syndicate's "See That My Grave is Kept Clean", then switched the jacks and played the same tune on the Project.  Next, I played Neil Young's folkier "Tell Me Why" on the Technics, switched out again, and played the same tune on the Project.    At the end, I asked her to compare the two turntables.  She looked at me and said, "Honestly, I can't tell the difference."

    Life is funny, haha!

    So now I have to decide whether to keep the Techincs as a second TT/ back up to the aging Project or return it before the 60 days are up.  One consideration is break-in time.  I'm told red Ortofon's mellow after some break-in time.  I had the thing for 26 days before setting up due to being laid low by Moderna.  So I don't really have much break-in time and I don't really know if it will mellow.  I never really noticed the brightness on the Project's red Ortofon.

    Damn first-world problems!  :lol:   (But in fairness to myself, $1200 is a fairly big pile of money in my world.  It was about three years of saving up much of my own spending money.)



    Post edited by brianlux on
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • HobbesHobbes Pacific NorthwestPosts: 4,999
    For $1200 I'd want my balls blown off. Return it, I say. Perhaps a less expensive TT with an upgraded cartridge.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,510
    Hobbes said:
    For $1200 I'd want my balls blown off. Return it, I say. Perhaps a less expensive TT with an upgraded cartridge.
    Haha, I hear ya!  I'm thinking similarly.  I wanted the Technics mainly because even though I finally solved the Project's motor noise issues, I'm concerned that sometimes I can feel a slight vibration in the arm when I'm holding it to lower by hand, and also because I liked the idea of being able to switch between 33 RPM and 45 RPM without having to lift the platter and change the band.  But I don't play 45's that often, so that's not a huge deal, and if I were confident that the occasional arm vibration was not going to harm the records, I'd probably just stick with the Project and be happy to have my $1200 minus return shipping back in my pocket.

    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • dudemandudeman Posts: 2,542
    brianlux said:
    After literally years of researching and stewing over what to upgrade my Project Carbon debut with red Ortofon cartridge, I got this email from Crutchfield saying that they had a small, limited number of Technics SL-1500C turntables with Red Ortofon cart come in, was I interested?  So I jumped on it.  Got it set up today and was kind of bummed to find that the only auditory difference to me was that the Technics seems just a tiny fraction less forward sounding and on some of the highs seem more bright (not a welcome feature for my trashed ears).  Otherwise, they seem fairly similar to me.
    Sheesh, $1200 bucks for that? 
    I had my wife sit down and do a listening test and she kindly obliged. I am more pitch sensitive from having hyperacusis, so it seemed like a good idea to try a side-by-side test on someone with good hearing.  I asked her to not change position while listening. I asked her to listen for things like dynamics, loudness, pitch, clarity, and presence.
    First,  I played a more punchy rock tune on the Technics, The Dream Syndicate's "See That My Grave is Kept Clean", then switched the jacks and played the same tune on the Project.  Next, I played Neil Young's folkier "Tell Me Why" on the Technics, switched out again, and played the same tune on the Project.    At the end, I asked her to compare the two turntables.  She looked at me and said, "Honestly, I can't tell the difference."

    Life is funny, haha!

    So now I have to decide whether to keep the Techincs as a second TT/ back up to the aging Project or return it before the 60 days are up.  One consideration is break-in time.  I'm told red Ortofon's mellow after some break-in time.  I had the thing for 26 days before setting up due to being laid low by Moderna.  So I don't really have much break-in time and I don't really know if it will mellow.  I never really noticed the brightness on the Project's red Ortofon.

    Damn first-world problems!  :lol:   (But in fairness to myself, $1200 is a fairly big pile of money in my world.  It was about three years of saving up much of my own spending money.)



    Man, that's a drag! It echoes my own experience with turntables though. As long as a turntable keeps speed consistently, I have never noticed much difference between them regarding sound quality. You need very sensitive and revealing speakers to appreciate the difference between some components. 

    Cartridges are a different story. A good cartridge, even on a stable but moderately priced turntable can sound incredibly good. You would have to spend a lot of money to notice a considerable improvement.

    IME, if you're unhappy with your stereo, you would be better served by upgrading your speakers, as they contribute the most to the overall experience. Preamp electronics, power amp, source and cables come later and almost always yield more subtle improvements. 

    YMMV, of course. 
    If hope can grow from dirt like me, it can be done. - EV
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,510
    dudeman said:
    brianlux said:
    After literally years of researching and stewing over what to upgrade my Project Carbon debut with red Ortofon cartridge, I got this email from Crutchfield saying that they had a small, limited number of Technics SL-1500C turntables with Red Ortofon cart come in, was I interested?  So I jumped on it.  Got it set up today and was kind of bummed to find that the only auditory difference to me was that the Technics seems just a tiny fraction less forward sounding and on some of the highs seem more bright (not a welcome feature for my trashed ears).  Otherwise, they seem fairly similar to me.
    Sheesh, $1200 bucks for that? 
    I had my wife sit down and do a listening test and she kindly obliged. I am more pitch sensitive from having hyperacusis, so it seemed like a good idea to try a side-by-side test on someone with good hearing.  I asked her to not change position while listening. I asked her to listen for things like dynamics, loudness, pitch, clarity, and presence.
    First,  I played a more punchy rock tune on the Technics, The Dream Syndicate's "See That My Grave is Kept Clean", then switched the jacks and played the same tune on the Project.  Next, I played Neil Young's folkier "Tell Me Why" on the Technics, switched out again, and played the same tune on the Project.    At the end, I asked her to compare the two turntables.  She looked at me and said, "Honestly, I can't tell the difference."

    Life is funny, haha!

    So now I have to decide whether to keep the Techincs as a second TT/ back up to the aging Project or return it before the 60 days are up.  One consideration is break-in time.  I'm told red Ortofon's mellow after some break-in time.  I had the thing for 26 days before setting up due to being laid low by Moderna.  So I don't really have much break-in time and I don't really know if it will mellow.  I never really noticed the brightness on the Project's red Ortofon.

    Damn first-world problems!  :lol:   (But in fairness to myself, $1200 is a fairly big pile of money in my world.  It was about three years of saving up much of my own spending money.)



    Man, that's a drag! It echoes my own experience with turntables though. As long as a turntable keeps speed consistently, I have never noticed much difference between them regarding sound quality. You need very sensitive and revealing speakers to appreciate the difference between some components. 

    Cartridges are a different story. A good cartridge, even on a stable but moderately priced turntable can sound incredibly good. You would have to spend a lot of money to notice a considerable improvement.

    IME, if you're unhappy with your stereo, you would be better served by upgrading your speakers, as they contribute the most to the overall experience. Preamp electronics, power amp, source and cables come later and almost always yield more subtle improvements. 

    YMMV, of course. 

    Good advice all around, Dudeman, thanks!
    I got return authorization today from Crutchfield and they made it very easy and pleasant.  They're a great company to work with and the return was way more affordable than I'd expected!
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 22,040
    brianlux said:
    dudeman said:
    brianlux said:
    After literally years of researching and stewing over what to upgrade my Project Carbon debut with red Ortofon cartridge, I got this email from Crutchfield saying that they had a small, limited number of Technics SL-1500C turntables with Red Ortofon cart come in, was I interested?  So I jumped on it.  Got it set up today and was kind of bummed to find that the only auditory difference to me was that the Technics seems just a tiny fraction less forward sounding and on some of the highs seem more bright (not a welcome feature for my trashed ears).  Otherwise, they seem fairly similar to me.
    Sheesh, $1200 bucks for that? 
    I had my wife sit down and do a listening test and she kindly obliged. I am more pitch sensitive from having hyperacusis, so it seemed like a good idea to try a side-by-side test on someone with good hearing.  I asked her to not change position while listening. I asked her to listen for things like dynamics, loudness, pitch, clarity, and presence.
    First,  I played a more punchy rock tune on the Technics, The Dream Syndicate's "See That My Grave is Kept Clean", then switched the jacks and played the same tune on the Project.  Next, I played Neil Young's folkier "Tell Me Why" on the Technics, switched out again, and played the same tune on the Project.    At the end, I asked her to compare the two turntables.  She looked at me and said, "Honestly, I can't tell the difference."

    Life is funny, haha!

    So now I have to decide whether to keep the Techincs as a second TT/ back up to the aging Project or return it before the 60 days are up.  One consideration is break-in time.  I'm told red Ortofon's mellow after some break-in time.  I had the thing for 26 days before setting up due to being laid low by Moderna.  So I don't really have much break-in time and I don't really know if it will mellow.  I never really noticed the brightness on the Project's red Ortofon.

    Damn first-world problems!  :lol:   (But in fairness to myself, $1200 is a fairly big pile of money in my world.  It was about three years of saving up much of my own spending money.)



    Man, that's a drag! It echoes my own experience with turntables though. As long as a turntable keeps speed consistently, I have never noticed much difference between them regarding sound quality. You need very sensitive and revealing speakers to appreciate the difference between some components. 

    Cartridges are a different story. A good cartridge, even on a stable but moderately priced turntable can sound incredibly good. You would have to spend a lot of money to notice a considerable improvement.

    IME, if you're unhappy with your stereo, you would be better served by upgrading your speakers, as they contribute the most to the overall experience. Preamp electronics, power amp, source and cables come later and almost always yield more subtle improvements. 

    YMMV, of course. 

    Good advice all around, Dudeman, thanks!
    I got return authorization today from Crutchfield and they made it very easy and pleasant.  They're a great company to work with and the return was way more affordable than I'd expected!
    I think you would have to spend a fair amount to best that Debut that you have.  It's a very good 'entry' TT and performs like one in the 1000-1500 range without question.  So returning it would be the way to go.  I didn't read all of this, but I think you might hear a difference by upgrading the cart to a blue.  But overall, I think Dudeman is right..  speakers are where it's at at the end of the day.  If you have low end speakers, upgrading those will be, by far, your best bang for the buck.  And buying used speakers is a great idea.  Unless they are 30 years old or abused, they don't wear down.  You can pay 30-50% of new retail and have amazing speakers. 
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 22,040
    Oh and Crutchfield is great.  I think returns are $10 across the board.  Their HQ are in C'ville so less than an hour away.  I've bought plenty from them, but I've demoed even more.  They are really good about that. 
  • hrd2imgnhrd2imgn Southwest Burbs of ChicagoPosts: 4,466
    Got a nice deal on a VPI Cliffwood, loads better than my Project Debut 2.

    Many turntables do not have covers these days and they charge a flippin arm and leg for them.  Had a custom one made for it.  Somethign to consider when buying. The project debut 2 had a cover
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 22,040
    hrd2imgn said:
    Got a nice deal on a VPI Cliffwood, loads better than my Project Debut 2.

    Many turntables do not have covers these days and they charge a flippin arm and leg for them.  Had a custom one made for it.  Somethign to consider when buying. The project debut 2 had a cover
    Yeah I'd say that's a step up
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