The coronavirus
Comments
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Yeah just got that email. And you have a few weeks to decide if you can attend a concert 16 months from nowGern Blansten said:Rage Against the Machine just postponed their tour to 2022.....0 -
I agree. And frankly, so does the person that didn't get the vaccine.mrussel1 said:
In my opinion, once the vaccine is generally available, you are not responsible for that person's decision.Ledbetterman10 said:I wonder what some of you think of this scenario. The CDC says if you're fully-vaccinated, you can gather with others that are fully vaccinated without a mask. At my place of work, there's eight of us. We've all been offered the vaccine, and seven of us got it and are fully vaccinated. The one who didn't, just simply doesn't want it. Am I under some sort of moral obligation to keep wearing my mask to keep her safe?
For now, we're still all under orders for higher-ups to wear our masks in hallways and common places. I don't have to wear it in my own office, but have to put it on to go the bathroom. But if that order gets lifted, in your guys' opinions, should the seven of us still wear our masks for the sake of the one person that refused the vaccine?
That said, we know who has and hasn't gotten it in our office, but outside the office, who knows? At this point, I wear the mask in stores because it's mandated, but I don't wear it anywhere else. If I'm walking down the sidewalk, I'm not wearing it. And if someone who isn't vaccinated is walking on the same sidewalk, I feel it's their responsibility to wear the mask for their own protection.
2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024: Philly 2, 2025: Pittsburgh 1
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com0 -
I've had one shot, next one in a few days. But even after that, I will wear a mask to be a good citizen and set a good example, until such time that vaccines are wide and far. It's probably technically not necessary, but as I said earlier, social health policy and science are not 100% overlapped. They are connected.Ledbetterman10 said:
I agree. And frankly, so does the person that didn't get the vaccine.mrussel1 said:
In my opinion, once the vaccine is generally available, you are not responsible for that person's decision.Ledbetterman10 said:I wonder what some of you think of this scenario. The CDC says if you're fully-vaccinated, you can gather with others that are fully vaccinated without a mask. At my place of work, there's eight of us. We've all been offered the vaccine, and seven of us got it and are fully vaccinated. The one who didn't, just simply doesn't want it. Am I under some sort of moral obligation to keep wearing my mask to keep her safe?
For now, we're still all under orders for higher-ups to wear our masks in hallways and common places. I don't have to wear it in my own office, but have to put it on to go the bathroom. But if that order gets lifted, in your guys' opinions, should the seven of us still wear our masks for the sake of the one person that refused the vaccine?
That said, we know who has and hasn't gotten it in our office, but outside the office, who knows? At this point, I wear the mask in stores because it's mandated, but I don't wear it anywhere else. If I'm walking down the sidewalk, I'm not wearing it. And if someone who isn't vaccinated is walking on the same sidewalk, I feel it's their responsibility to wear the mask for their own protection.0 -
As vaccines become more widely available, this will be how I move forward as well.Ledbetterman10 said:
I agree. And frankly, so does the person that didn't get the vaccine.mrussel1 said:
In my opinion, once the vaccine is generally available, you are not responsible for that person's decision.Ledbetterman10 said:I wonder what some of you think of this scenario. The CDC says if you're fully-vaccinated, you can gather with others that are fully vaccinated without a mask. At my place of work, there's eight of us. We've all been offered the vaccine, and seven of us got it and are fully vaccinated. The one who didn't, just simply doesn't want it. Am I under some sort of moral obligation to keep wearing my mask to keep her safe?
For now, we're still all under orders for higher-ups to wear our masks in hallways and common places. I don't have to wear it in my own office, but have to put it on to go the bathroom. But if that order gets lifted, in your guys' opinions, should the seven of us still wear our masks for the sake of the one person that refused the vaccine?
That said, we know who has and hasn't gotten it in our office, but outside the office, who knows? At this point, I wear the mask in stores because it's mandated, but I don't wear it anywhere else. If I'm walking down the sidewalk, I'm not wearing it. And if someone who isn't vaccinated is walking on the same sidewalk, I feel it's their responsibility to wear the mask for their own protection.
Once the mask mandate is lifted, it's lifted. People like your co-worker who refused the vaccine are on their own.
I have no problem putting a mask on in stores, or in crowds, they genuinely don't bother me, but I look forward to a day where they aren't needed.
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Ugh...this suggests that this will be another summer without concert tours.Gern Blansten said:Rage Against the Machine just postponed their tour to 2022.....
2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024: Philly 2, 2025: Pittsburgh 1
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com0 -
And that he didn’t vote for the Covidiot in 16 but did so in 2020 lol that’s after 400 thousand Americans were already dead he voted for him 😂😂😂Merkin Baller said:
For me you lost credibility when you wanted to talk about Hunter Biden in April of 2021.gvn2fly1421 said:
See my post below where I address your vary concern. Can you give a broader scope of what New Zealand has done and how that would be effective in the US and Canada?oftenreading said:
It’s not possible that someone interested enough to engage in endless discussions about covid lockdowns has not heard about how New Zealand has dealt with the issue. That’s proof right there that this is all an attempt to wind people up and get them to waste their time.HughFreakingDillon said:
you can't be serious you haven't heard of how New Zealand handled it. if you are, lockdowns + good leadership (which has a big effect on public buy-in) = success. simple as that.gvn2fly1421 said:
Hugh, you mentioned New Zealand earlier. Like New Brunswick, I know nothing about it. Can you explain how they have handled covid so well?HughFreakingDillon said:some people don't like evidence or science. and when you point them to it, they switch gears to conspiracy theories. it's not worth anyone's time to debate such nonsense.
Also, care to give your opinion on how you would have handled it?
I would have handled it similarly to how my province has, and we have a conservative PM, but he also listens to the science. they have made policy mistakes, but they have tried to correct them, (except helping the homeless, but that's another story). it's all about protecting the health care system, while also protecting our most vulnerable. that includes lockdowns when necessary, and when cases subside, open as much as you can to keep the economy going and people sane. it's a balancing act on the head of a pin. it ain't easy.
but doing nothing is absurd.
I am not trying to "wind people up". I know I came in like a wrecking ball and that was on me. I guess I lose credibility from the get go. But honest discussion like the last couple of pages only moves us all forward and hopefully helps us look at things differently. Whats the old saying, "Believe half of what you see and less of what you hear".
And to bring up people "wasting their time", seriously? You have 11,000 posts on a message board, looks like you have plenty of time.
That was when I knew everything I needed to know.jesus greets me looks just like me ....0 -
interesting. last I read it didn't prevent acquisition of the virus, just symptoms and morbidity.oftenreading said:
The vaccine definitely prevents people fromHughFreakingDillon said:
I wish people would stop wishing for the quick fix. This isn't a one-pronged solution.gvn2fly1421 said:
And that's where this whole thing gets really, really difficult to deal with.mrussel1 said:
You're focused on the throw away line. The point still stands which you didn't address. It's true that mortality rate is very low for people that are young and without co-morbidities. But that's not the whole country as evidenced by the half million dead. The 95% vaccine effectiveness is a number that plays out across the health spectrum, whereas your 99% number is only for the very healthy. So focusing on the healthy shows a blatant disregard for a good chunk of our citizens and neighbors.gvn2fly1421 said:
I hesitate to even respond because I do not want to derail what I feel like has been good discussion, but do not lump me in with other Republicans that you see on tv or other stuff. The All Live Matter jab at the end was unnecessary. When did I ever say that?mrussel1 said:
For most healthy people... we have an aging population and co morbidity. That's why there are a half million dead. Stop minimizing that very important fact. All lives matter... remember?gvn2fly1421 said:
You may not have heard, there is a 99%* survivable virus out there.mrussel1 said:
You may not have heard, but there's a 94% effective vaccine out there.gvn2fly1421 said:
Lockdowns are effective to reduce cases. Lockdowns are also effective at delaying the inevitable. The virus is gonna virus.oftenreading said:
Looking at cases at any single point in time to argue against lockdowns is pointless, given the time lag between when lockdowns and reopenings start and when we see cases go down or up. What matters is the trends over time related to these activities, and we have good evidence that lockdowns are effective to reduce cases where they are properly implemented and where people obey them.gvn2fly1421 said:
At one point do you end the lockdown? If you told every person in America that if you locked down for a month the virus would be gone and life would be back to normal, every single person would jump at that. I know I would. The problem is, viruses are not on that same schedule. So at what point does the costs of lockdowns outweight the costs of reaching herd immunity?
*For most healthy people.
As I have stated in the past, I did not vote for that glorious orange bastard in 2016, but I did in 2020. I try to get information from all sides and form an opinion off of that. I believe women should be allowed to have an abortion. I believe in stricter gun laws. ABSO-FUCKIN-LUTELY!
One of my broader points throughout coming here is that if you cannot look at BOTH sides of the political landscape in America and laugh at the absurdity, you are too far gone.
OK, please do not derail off of that post... Back to covid...
Several have mentioned the vaccine as the "getting back to normal" point, my only concern with that is the language that the health community and the MSM is using around the vaccine (may not protect against variants, still have to mask, still have to distance, cannot travel, etc.) is a terrible message to send to get people back to normal and want to take the vaccine. What incentive does a healthy adult have to take the vaccine?
the scientific/medical community is being honest that protection against variants, current and future, is completely unpredictable. That's why we need to continue to be vigilant even after vaccination. otherwise vaccination on its own could end up being a complete fucking waste and we're in wave 6 with 18 new variants that are vaccine resistant.
healthy adults should get it to get as close to herd immunity as possible. the vaccine doesn't prevent one getting the virus; it may prevent symptoms, hence preventing further spread to someone who may not be as protected as they are.
there is also a lot of data that shows that "healthy adults" can die from this, and if not, have long term negative affects from it.
it would nice if we had people who saw "keeping the vulnerable safe" as an incentive, not just their own selfish convenience.
getting the virus - asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic cases are significantly reduced in those vaccinated compared to those who are not. Newer population based studies are showing that.
science gonna science.By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.0 -
Evolving data. It’s exciting, though the variants not so much.HughFreakingDillon said:
interesting. last I read it didn't prevent acquisition of the virus, just symptoms and morbidity.oftenreading said:
The vaccine definitely prevents people fromHughFreakingDillon said:
I wish people would stop wishing for the quick fix. This isn't a one-pronged solution.gvn2fly1421 said:
And that's where this whole thing gets really, really difficult to deal with.mrussel1 said:
You're focused on the throw away line. The point still stands which you didn't address. It's true that mortality rate is very low for people that are young and without co-morbidities. But that's not the whole country as evidenced by the half million dead. The 95% vaccine effectiveness is a number that plays out across the health spectrum, whereas your 99% number is only for the very healthy. So focusing on the healthy shows a blatant disregard for a good chunk of our citizens and neighbors.gvn2fly1421 said:
I hesitate to even respond because I do not want to derail what I feel like has been good discussion, but do not lump me in with other Republicans that you see on tv or other stuff. The All Live Matter jab at the end was unnecessary. When did I ever say that?mrussel1 said:
For most healthy people... we have an aging population and co morbidity. That's why there are a half million dead. Stop minimizing that very important fact. All lives matter... remember?gvn2fly1421 said:
You may not have heard, there is a 99%* survivable virus out there.mrussel1 said:
You may not have heard, but there's a 94% effective vaccine out there.gvn2fly1421 said:
Lockdowns are effective to reduce cases. Lockdowns are also effective at delaying the inevitable. The virus is gonna virus.oftenreading said:
Looking at cases at any single point in time to argue against lockdowns is pointless, given the time lag between when lockdowns and reopenings start and when we see cases go down or up. What matters is the trends over time related to these activities, and we have good evidence that lockdowns are effective to reduce cases where they are properly implemented and where people obey them.gvn2fly1421 said:
At one point do you end the lockdown? If you told every person in America that if you locked down for a month the virus would be gone and life would be back to normal, every single person would jump at that. I know I would. The problem is, viruses are not on that same schedule. So at what point does the costs of lockdowns outweight the costs of reaching herd immunity?
*For most healthy people.
As I have stated in the past, I did not vote for that glorious orange bastard in 2016, but I did in 2020. I try to get information from all sides and form an opinion off of that. I believe women should be allowed to have an abortion. I believe in stricter gun laws. ABSO-FUCKIN-LUTELY!
One of my broader points throughout coming here is that if you cannot look at BOTH sides of the political landscape in America and laugh at the absurdity, you are too far gone.
OK, please do not derail off of that post... Back to covid...
Several have mentioned the vaccine as the "getting back to normal" point, my only concern with that is the language that the health community and the MSM is using around the vaccine (may not protect against variants, still have to mask, still have to distance, cannot travel, etc.) is a terrible message to send to get people back to normal and want to take the vaccine. What incentive does a healthy adult have to take the vaccine?
the scientific/medical community is being honest that protection against variants, current and future, is completely unpredictable. That's why we need to continue to be vigilant even after vaccination. otherwise vaccination on its own could end up being a complete fucking waste and we're in wave 6 with 18 new variants that are vaccine resistant.
healthy adults should get it to get as close to herd immunity as possible. the vaccine doesn't prevent one getting the virus; it may prevent symptoms, hence preventing further spread to someone who may not be as protected as they are.
there is also a lot of data that shows that "healthy adults" can die from this, and if not, have long term negative affects from it.
it would nice if we had people who saw "keeping the vulnerable safe" as an incentive, not just their own selfish convenience.
getting the virus - asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic cases are significantly reduced in those vaccinated compared to those who are not. Newer population based studies are showing that.
science gonna science.my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf0 -
haha agreed.oftenreading said:
Evolving data. It’s exciting, though the variants not so much.HughFreakingDillon said:
interesting. last I read it didn't prevent acquisition of the virus, just symptoms and morbidity.oftenreading said:
The vaccine definitely prevents people fromHughFreakingDillon said:
I wish people would stop wishing for the quick fix. This isn't a one-pronged solution.gvn2fly1421 said:
And that's where this whole thing gets really, really difficult to deal with.mrussel1 said:
You're focused on the throw away line. The point still stands which you didn't address. It's true that mortality rate is very low for people that are young and without co-morbidities. But that's not the whole country as evidenced by the half million dead. The 95% vaccine effectiveness is a number that plays out across the health spectrum, whereas your 99% number is only for the very healthy. So focusing on the healthy shows a blatant disregard for a good chunk of our citizens and neighbors.gvn2fly1421 said:
I hesitate to even respond because I do not want to derail what I feel like has been good discussion, but do not lump me in with other Republicans that you see on tv or other stuff. The All Live Matter jab at the end was unnecessary. When did I ever say that?mrussel1 said:
For most healthy people... we have an aging population and co morbidity. That's why there are a half million dead. Stop minimizing that very important fact. All lives matter... remember?gvn2fly1421 said:
You may not have heard, there is a 99%* survivable virus out there.mrussel1 said:
You may not have heard, but there's a 94% effective vaccine out there.gvn2fly1421 said:
Lockdowns are effective to reduce cases. Lockdowns are also effective at delaying the inevitable. The virus is gonna virus.oftenreading said:
Looking at cases at any single point in time to argue against lockdowns is pointless, given the time lag between when lockdowns and reopenings start and when we see cases go down or up. What matters is the trends over time related to these activities, and we have good evidence that lockdowns are effective to reduce cases where they are properly implemented and where people obey them.gvn2fly1421 said:
At one point do you end the lockdown? If you told every person in America that if you locked down for a month the virus would be gone and life would be back to normal, every single person would jump at that. I know I would. The problem is, viruses are not on that same schedule. So at what point does the costs of lockdowns outweight the costs of reaching herd immunity?
*For most healthy people.
As I have stated in the past, I did not vote for that glorious orange bastard in 2016, but I did in 2020. I try to get information from all sides and form an opinion off of that. I believe women should be allowed to have an abortion. I believe in stricter gun laws. ABSO-FUCKIN-LUTELY!
One of my broader points throughout coming here is that if you cannot look at BOTH sides of the political landscape in America and laugh at the absurdity, you are too far gone.
OK, please do not derail off of that post... Back to covid...
Several have mentioned the vaccine as the "getting back to normal" point, my only concern with that is the language that the health community and the MSM is using around the vaccine (may not protect against variants, still have to mask, still have to distance, cannot travel, etc.) is a terrible message to send to get people back to normal and want to take the vaccine. What incentive does a healthy adult have to take the vaccine?
the scientific/medical community is being honest that protection against variants, current and future, is completely unpredictable. That's why we need to continue to be vigilant even after vaccination. otherwise vaccination on its own could end up being a complete fucking waste and we're in wave 6 with 18 new variants that are vaccine resistant.
healthy adults should get it to get as close to herd immunity as possible. the vaccine doesn't prevent one getting the virus; it may prevent symptoms, hence preventing further spread to someone who may not be as protected as they are.
there is also a lot of data that shows that "healthy adults" can die from this, and if not, have long term negative affects from it.
it would nice if we had people who saw "keeping the vulnerable safe" as an incentive, not just their own selfish convenience.
getting the virus - asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic cases are significantly reduced in those vaccinated compared to those who are not. Newer population based studies are showing that.
science gonna science.By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.0 -
however, often, how does a vaccine prevent a virus from entering your system?By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.0
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Probably.mrussel1 said:
Are you trying to be intentionally obtuse? I would be surprised/shocked that once the country reaches a heavy vax level (upwards of 70%) and low active infections, that we will still have mask mandates. We aren't there today. So the goal of social health policy is to keep up the vigilance while the vax is rolled out. Science and health policy are connected, but not the same.gvn2fly1421 said:
I thought that was science?mrussel1 said:
There's a difference between the science of virology and social health policy. Social health policy dictates to continue to distance and mask because a minority of Americans (or maybe just 50%) have been immunized.gvn2fly1421 said:
And that's where this whole thing gets really, really difficult to deal with.mrussel1 said:
You're focused on the throw away line. The point still stands which you didn't address. It's true that mortality rate is very low for people that are young and without co-morbidities. But that's not the whole country as evidenced by the half million dead. The 95% vaccine effectiveness is a number that plays out across the health spectrum, whereas your 99% number is only for the very healthy. So focusing on the healthy shows a blatant disregard for a good chunk of our citizens and neighbors.gvn2fly1421 said:
I hesitate to even respond because I do not want to derail what I feel like has been good discussion, but do not lump me in with other Republicans that you see on tv or other stuff. The All Live Matter jab at the end was unnecessary. When did I ever say that?mrussel1 said:
For most healthy people... we have an aging population and co morbidity. That's why there are a half million dead. Stop minimizing that very important fact. All lives matter... remember?gvn2fly1421 said:
You may not have heard, there is a 99%* survivable virus out there.mrussel1 said:
You may not have heard, but there's a 94% effective vaccine out there.gvn2fly1421 said:
Lockdowns are effective to reduce cases. Lockdowns are also effective at delaying the inevitable. The virus is gonna virus.oftenreading said:
Looking at cases at any single point in time to argue against lockdowns is pointless, given the time lag between when lockdowns and reopenings start and when we see cases go down or up. What matters is the trends over time related to these activities, and we have good evidence that lockdowns are effective to reduce cases where they are properly implemented and where people obey them.gvn2fly1421 said:
At one point do you end the lockdown? If you told every person in America that if you locked down for a month the virus would be gone and life would be back to normal, every single person would jump at that. I know I would. The problem is, viruses are not on that same schedule. So at what point does the costs of lockdowns outweight the costs of reaching herd immunity?
*For most healthy people.
As I have stated in the past, I did not vote for that glorious orange bastard in 2016, but I did in 2020. I try to get information from all sides and form an opinion off of that. I believe women should be allowed to have an abortion. I believe in stricter gun laws. ABSO-FUCKIN-LUTELY!
One of my broader points throughout coming here is that if you cannot look at BOTH sides of the political landscape in America and laugh at the absurdity, you are too far gone.
OK, please do not derail off of that post... Back to covid...
Several have mentioned the vaccine as the "getting back to normal" point, my only concern with that is the language that the health community and the MSM is using around the vaccine (may not protect against variants, still have to mask, still have to distance, cannot travel, etc.) is a terrible message to send to get people back to normal and want to take the vaccine. What incentive does a healthy adult have to take the vaccine?0 -
The go to number that everyone seems to go to is deaths. That is why I use death rates. All of them are around 1%. So if we have learned anything from looking at New Zealand, Sweden, New Brunswick, the US, etc., we have learned that cases are going to happen, virus gonna virus, no matter what is done. It seems the path we are on now is a path to having this linger for years.mrussel1 said:
Sweden's infection rates are far worse than their Scandinavian counterparts. Death rates, as I said earlier, are not about masks or social distancing. Why do you think those things are connected? Death is an outcome based on co-morbidities, availability of healthcare, and age of the infected. Why would you expect a dramatically different death rate amongst three Scando countries that have similar demographics and healthcare systems?gvn2fly1421 said:
The point you raised in the post I replied to mentioned vaccine effectiveness. I drew the conclusion that you think the vaccine is the way out. I replied to that.mrussel1 said:
There's a difference between the science of virology and social health policy. Social health policy dictates to continue to distance and mask because a minority of Americans (or maybe just 50%) have been immunized. If you tell people, once you are vaccinated, no need to do anything different, you'll have people who are NOT vaccinated start doing the same. So it's a safety first approach.gvn2fly1421 said:
And that's where this whole thing gets really, really difficult to deal with.mrussel1 said:
You're focused on the throw away line. The point still stands which you didn't address. It's true that mortality rate is very low for people that are young and without co-morbidities. But that's not the whole country as evidenced by the half million dead. The 95% vaccine effectiveness is a number that plays out across the health spectrum, whereas your 99% number is only for the very healthy. So focusing on the healthy shows a blatant disregard for a good chunk of our citizens and neighbors.gvn2fly1421 said:
I hesitate to even respond because I do not want to derail what I feel like has been good discussion, but do not lump me in with other Republicans that you see on tv or other stuff. The All Live Matter jab at the end was unnecessary. When did I ever say that?mrussel1 said:
For most healthy people... we have an aging population and co morbidity. That's why there are a half million dead. Stop minimizing that very important fact. All lives matter... remember?gvn2fly1421 said:
You may not have heard, there is a 99%* survivable virus out there.mrussel1 said:
You may not have heard, but there's a 94% effective vaccine out there.gvn2fly1421 said:
Lockdowns are effective to reduce cases. Lockdowns are also effective at delaying the inevitable. The virus is gonna virus.oftenreading said:
Looking at cases at any single point in time to argue against lockdowns is pointless, given the time lag between when lockdowns and reopenings start and when we see cases go down or up. What matters is the trends over time related to these activities, and we have good evidence that lockdowns are effective to reduce cases where they are properly implemented and where people obey them.gvn2fly1421 said:
At one point do you end the lockdown? If you told every person in America that if you locked down for a month the virus would be gone and life would be back to normal, every single person would jump at that. I know I would. The problem is, viruses are not on that same schedule. So at what point does the costs of lockdowns outweight the costs of reaching herd immunity?
*For most healthy people.
As I have stated in the past, I did not vote for that glorious orange bastard in 2016, but I did in 2020. I try to get information from all sides and form an opinion off of that. I believe women should be allowed to have an abortion. I believe in stricter gun laws. ABSO-FUCKIN-LUTELY!
One of my broader points throughout coming here is that if you cannot look at BOTH sides of the political landscape in America and laugh at the absurdity, you are too far gone.
OK, please do not derail off of that post... Back to covid...
Several have mentioned the vaccine as the "getting back to normal" point, my only concern with that is the language that the health community and the MSM is using around the vaccine (may not protect against variants, still have to mask, still have to distance, cannot travel, etc.) is a terrible message to send to get people back to normal and want to take the vaccine. What incentive does a healthy adult have to take the vaccine?
But you continue to avoid other points that I have raised and go onto something else. Everyone see the goal posts moving consistently here. Going back to what I believe your core point was, that we should have gone to herd immunity as a strategy. The one country that had that as a strategy was Sweden, and they had higher infection and mortality rates than neighboring Scandinavian countries. It has been a failure. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-prageru-sweden-herd-immunit/fact-check-sweden-has-not-achieved-herd-immunity-is-not-proof-that-lockdowns-are-useless-idUSKBN28C2R7
I went and looked at Sweden's numbers on google and they don't look awful. More people have gotten the virus and more people have died, but the percentage of people who get the virus and survive are close when compared to Norway and Finland. I have no idea how each country handled the virus, let me just get that out there before I am asked. Would anyone care to enlighten me?
What other points can I offer an opinion to that I have missed? I try to respond to any posts directed me as honest as I can.0 -
Yeah my coworker was HughFreakingDillon said:
fully vaccinated and still got infected by her moron husband who was not vaccinated she lost her sense of taste & smell just no fever or tiredness!
interesting. last I read it didn't prevent acquisition of the virus, just symptoms and morbidity.oftenreading said:
The vaccine definitely prevents people fromHughFreakingDillon said:
I wish people would stop wishing for the quick fix. This isn't a one-pronged solution.gvn2fly1421 said:
And that's where this whole thing gets really, really difficult to deal with.mrussel1 said:
You're focused on the throw away line. The point still stands which you didn't address. It's true that mortality rate is very low for people that are young and without co-morbidities. But that's not the whole country as evidenced by the half million dead. The 95% vaccine effectiveness is a number that plays out across the health spectrum, whereas your 99% number is only for the very healthy. So focusing on the healthy shows a blatant disregard for a good chunk of our citizens and neighbors.gvn2fly1421 said:
I hesitate to even respond because I do not want to derail what I feel like has been good discussion, but do not lump me in with other Republicans that you see on tv or other stuff. The All Live Matter jab at the end was unnecessary. When did I ever say that?mrussel1 said:
For most healthy people... we have an aging population and co morbidity. That's why there are a half million dead. Stop minimizing that very important fact. All lives matter... remember?gvn2fly1421 said:
You may not have heard, there is a 99%* survivable virus out there.mrussel1 said:
You may not have heard, but there's a 94% effective vaccine out there.gvn2fly1421 said:
Lockdowns are effective to reduce cases. Lockdowns are also effective at delaying the inevitable. The virus is gonna virus.oftenreading said:
Looking at cases at any single point in time to argue against lockdowns is pointless, given the time lag between when lockdowns and reopenings start and when we see cases go down or up. What matters is the trends over time related to these activities, and we have good evidence that lockdowns are effective to reduce cases where they are properly implemented and where people obey them.gvn2fly1421 said:
At one point do you end the lockdown? If you told every person in America that if you locked down for a month the virus would be gone and life would be back to normal, every single person would jump at that. I know I would. The problem is, viruses are not on that same schedule. So at what point does the costs of lockdowns outweight the costs of reaching herd immunity?
*For most healthy people.
As I have stated in the past, I did not vote for that glorious orange bastard in 2016, but I did in 2020. I try to get information from all sides and form an opinion off of that. I believe women should be allowed to have an abortion. I believe in stricter gun laws. ABSO-FUCKIN-LUTELY!
One of my broader points throughout coming here is that if you cannot look at BOTH sides of the political landscape in America and laugh at the absurdity, you are too far gone.
OK, please do not derail off of that post... Back to covid...
Several have mentioned the vaccine as the "getting back to normal" point, my only concern with that is the language that the health community and the MSM is using around the vaccine (may not protect against variants, still have to mask, still have to distance, cannot travel, etc.) is a terrible message to send to get people back to normal and want to take the vaccine. What incentive does a healthy adult have to take the vaccine?
the scientific/medical community is being honest that protection against variants, current and future, is completely unpredictable. That's why we need to continue to be vigilant even after vaccination. otherwise vaccination on its own could end up being a complete fucking waste and we're in wave 6 with 18 new variants that are vaccine resistant.
healthy adults should get it to get as close to herd immunity as possible. the vaccine doesn't prevent one getting the virus; it may prevent symptoms, hence preventing further spread to someone who may not be as protected as they are.
there is also a lot of data that shows that "healthy adults" can die from this, and if not, have long term negative affects from it.
it would nice if we had people who saw "keeping the vulnerable safe" as an incentive, not just their own selfish convenience.
getting the virus - asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic cases are significantly reduced in those vaccinated compared to those who are not. Newer population based studies are showing that.
science gonna science.jesus greets me looks just like me ....0 -
My coworkerjosevolution said:Yeah my coworker was HughFreakingDillon said:
fully vaccinated and still got infected by her moron husband who was not vaccinated she lost her sense of taste & smell just no fever or tiredness!
interesting. last I read it didn't prevent acquisition of the virus, just symptoms and morbidity.oftenreading said:
The vaccine definitely prevents people fromHughFreakingDillon said:
I wish people would stop wishing for the quick fix. This isn't a one-pronged solution.gvn2fly1421 said:
And that's where this whole thing gets really, really difficult to deal with.mrussel1 said:
You're focused on the throw away line. The point still stands which you didn't address. It's true that mortality rate is very low for people that are young and without co-morbidities. But that's not the whole country as evidenced by the half million dead. The 95% vaccine effectiveness is a number that plays out across the health spectrum, whereas your 99% number is only for the very healthy. So focusing on the healthy shows a blatant disregard for a good chunk of our citizens and neighbors.gvn2fly1421 said:
I hesitate to even respond because I do not want to derail what I feel like has been good discussion, but do not lump me in with other Republicans that you see on tv or other stuff. The All Live Matter jab at the end was unnecessary. When did I ever say that?mrussel1 said:
For most healthy people... we have an aging population and co morbidity. That's why there are a half million dead. Stop minimizing that very important fact. All lives matter... remember?gvn2fly1421 said:
You may not have heard, there is a 99%* survivable virus out there.mrussel1 said:
You may not have heard, but there's a 94% effective vaccine out there.gvn2fly1421 said:
Lockdowns are effective to reduce cases. Lockdowns are also effective at delaying the inevitable. The virus is gonna virus.oftenreading said:
Looking at cases at any single point in time to argue against lockdowns is pointless, given the time lag between when lockdowns and reopenings start and when we see cases go down or up. What matters is the trends over time related to these activities, and we have good evidence that lockdowns are effective to reduce cases where they are properly implemented and where people obey them.gvn2fly1421 said:
At one point do you end the lockdown? If you told every person in America that if you locked down for a month the virus would be gone and life would be back to normal, every single person would jump at that. I know I would. The problem is, viruses are not on that same schedule. So at what point does the costs of lockdowns outweight the costs of reaching herd immunity?
*For most healthy people.
As I have stated in the past, I did not vote for that glorious orange bastard in 2016, but I did in 2020. I try to get information from all sides and form an opinion off of that. I believe women should be allowed to have an abortion. I believe in stricter gun laws. ABSO-FUCKIN-LUTELY!
One of my broader points throughout coming here is that if you cannot look at BOTH sides of the political landscape in America and laugh at the absurdity, you are too far gone.
OK, please do not derail off of that post... Back to covid...
Several have mentioned the vaccine as the "getting back to normal" point, my only concern with that is the language that the health community and the MSM is using around the vaccine (may not protect against variants, still have to mask, still have to distance, cannot travel, etc.) is a terrible message to send to get people back to normal and want to take the vaccine. What incentive does a healthy adult have to take the vaccine?
the scientific/medical community is being honest that protection against variants, current and future, is completely unpredictable. That's why we need to continue to be vigilant even after vaccination. otherwise vaccination on its own could end up being a complete fucking waste and we're in wave 6 with 18 new variants that are vaccine resistant.
healthy adults should get it to get as close to herd immunity as possible. the vaccine doesn't prevent one getting the virus; it may prevent symptoms, hence preventing further spread to someone who may not be as protected as they are.
there is also a lot of data that shows that "healthy adults" can die from this, and if not, have long term negative affects from it.
it would nice if we had people who saw "keeping the vulnerable safe" as an incentive, not just their own selfish convenience.
getting the virus - asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic cases are significantly reduced in those vaccinated compared to those who are not. Newer population based studies are showing that.
science gonna science.jesus greets me looks just like me ....0 -
Honestly, how can you not have a little hesitation about taking the vaccine? A vaccine that was rushed and one that health officials honestly have no clue what it can or can't do? One minute it is one thing, the next minute it is another. See my Fauci post a few pages back. Last week he said Astra Zeneca was fine, nothing to see here. This week the EU halts it because of blood clots in young adults. I know what the response will be, the science is changing. What will be said when it comes out the vaccine causes cancer in several years? Obviously a hypothetical, but who truly knows what this thing will do?mrussel1 said:
I don't have an issue with you personally not taking it. I have a problem with people spreading lies or sewing distrust in vaccines.gvn2fly1421 said:
So I am selfish because I do not take the vaccine? What if parents are not taking the vaccine either, are they selfish? They are the only ones I am around that would be endangered by the virus.benjs said:
You just rotate through shitty excuses for your side's pathetic failures.gvn2fly1421 said:
And that's where this whole thing gets really, really difficult to deal with.mrussel1 said:
You're focused on the throw away line. The point still stands which you didn't address. It's true that mortality rate is very low for people that are young and without co-morbidities. But that's not the whole country as evidenced by the half million dead. The 95% vaccine effectiveness is a number that plays out across the health spectrum, whereas your 99% number is only for the very healthy. So focusing on the healthy shows a blatant disregard for a good chunk of our citizens and neighbors.gvn2fly1421 said:
I hesitate to even respond because I do not want to derail what I feel like has been good discussion, but do not lump me in with other Republicans that you see on tv or other stuff. The All Live Matter jab at the end was unnecessary. When did I ever say that?mrussel1 said:
For most healthy people... we have an aging population and co morbidity. That's why there are a half million dead. Stop minimizing that very important fact. All lives matter... remember?gvn2fly1421 said:
You may not have heard, there is a 99%* survivable virus out there.mrussel1 said:
You may not have heard, but there's a 94% effective vaccine out there.gvn2fly1421 said:
Lockdowns are effective to reduce cases. Lockdowns are also effective at delaying the inevitable. The virus is gonna virus.oftenreading said:
Looking at cases at any single point in time to argue against lockdowns is pointless, given the time lag between when lockdowns and reopenings start and when we see cases go down or up. What matters is the trends over time related to these activities, and we have good evidence that lockdowns are effective to reduce cases where they are properly implemented and where people obey them.gvn2fly1421 said:
At one point do you end the lockdown? If you told every person in America that if you locked down for a month the virus would be gone and life would be back to normal, every single person would jump at that. I know I would. The problem is, viruses are not on that same schedule. So at what point does the costs of lockdowns outweight the costs of reaching herd immunity?
*For most healthy people.
As I have stated in the past, I did not vote for that glorious orange bastard in 2016, but I did in 2020. I try to get information from all sides and form an opinion off of that. I believe women should be allowed to have an abortion. I believe in stricter gun laws. ABSO-FUCKIN-LUTELY!
One of my broader points throughout coming here is that if you cannot look at BOTH sides of the political landscape in America and laugh at the absurdity, you are too far gone.
OK, please do not derail off of that post... Back to covid...
Several have mentioned the vaccine as the "getting back to normal" point, my only concern with that is the language that the health community and the MSM is using around the vaccine (may not protect against variants, still have to mask, still have to distance, cannot travel, etc.) is a terrible message to send to get people back to normal and want to take the vaccine. What incentive does a healthy adult have to take the vaccine?
Argument 1: "If they had just done nothing, things would've been better!" - aka "virus gonna virus"
Scientific debunk of moronic statement: high transmissibility + high fatality rate + basic common sense that concentration helps viruses spread = SERIOUS FUCKING PROBLEM WITH DOING NOTHING
Argument 2: "These politicians just want to divide us, there's no problem here" - aka "politicians gonna politic"
Scientific debunk of moronic statement: high transmissibility + high fatality rate + basic common sense that concentration helps viruses spread + evidence of death with strong mitigations in place = SERIOUS FUCKING PROBLEM WITH DOING NOTHING
Argument 3: "These vaccines are stupid because I still can't live my life completely the way I used to yet" - aka "my happiness is more important than your life"
No scientific debunk needed - this is just selfish.
If you take the vaccine, you are safe, why are you worried about me?
And truly, I am all for people getting their vaccine if it makes them feel safe. You should be all for me not getting the vaccine if it makes me feel safe.0 -
Responding to the bold in order:gvn2fly1421 said:
I will be skipping the vaccine. See my post above, what incentive do I have to get the vaccine. I am a healthy, 38 year old man, who by government standards is "overweight" but reality is I am 6' and weigh 195. Visit the gym frequently. I feel like looking at the data from around the globe, I will take my chances with the virus. Hell, I may have already had the virus and might never know. I have never been tested. And to be totally honest, the vaccine scares me more than the virus. What are the long term effects of the vaccine? No one knows. Even the short term effects scare me a bit. I have posted several things in here of people getting the vaccine and passing away a couple of weeks later. Is the vaccine truly effective for getting back to normal? Again, see my post above. What's my incentive?Halifax2TheMax said:
Yay you, you go on with your life. You get vaccinated yet? Or you skipping it?gvn2fly1421 said:
I am sure the first line is a typo with the 5 million dead Americans so I will leave that alone.Halifax2TheMax said:That someone is okay with approximately 5,700,000 dead +/- 'Muricans so they can live normally? WTF? Nobody is stopping you from going about your life. Go to a ball game, refuse to wear a mask, don't wash your hands or socially distance, find a job and go to work, the economy is booming, find an underground rave or restaurant scene, hell go to Flo Rida. What are you scared? Staying in your basement? Stop being controlled. Fuck man, live.
There is no hope for someone who can't discern the differences and the reasons for them. Only Q knows.
Are you ok with the lives that are destroyed that are still on this Earth?
Nobody has really stopped me from going about my life. Since last May my daughter has been playing softball. She had one "outbreak" at school around Thanksgiving that kept her out for two weeks but other than that, my life hasn't been interrupted. Is it not ok to look around me and the state of the country and not question what is going on?
I extrapolated the percentage of the WaPo dead to confirmed cases and came up with a percentage death rate and applied it to the US population of 320M. Not an exact methodology but it seems to hold and helps an idiot in math like me understand shit. If all 558,000 dead 'Muricans have at least 10 friends, family or acquaintances, would that be 5 million lives thus "destroyed?" Have we not taken care of the living via the PPP, stimulus, rent freeze, etc.? Or are those inconvenient truths? And how about all of those covid survivors? You know the ones, one third who will have, perhaps, a lifetime of adverse effects? Or do they not count in your calculus of harm/benefit analysis? How many deaths are you comfortable with? Seems your "do nothing herd mentality" approach would have clearly resulted in more deaths than we have now, inclusive of cascading impacts on our healthcare delivery systems. Give me a number, how many is enough, or worth it, or indicates a failure, or a success?
Perhaps you might explain why NYC, MA, RI and NJ, all blue states with dem governors, except MA, with a dem legislature lead the pack? What commonality do they share? What were the approaches? How did they differ? And maybe most importantly, what level of compliance did they have? Did they storm the capitol to oppose mask mandates? Have you seen Michigan's numbers lately? Thoughts?
That you voted for POOTWH after 4 years of his incompetence and still don't see the light? More than I need to know. Sure, question what's going on but don't pretend you know the answers. Or provide them with links to bullshit artists out to make a buck. I'll continue to listen to the science, review history and live my life in such a way so as to keep me as safe as possible, during a global pandemic, no less. Do you look both ways before you cross the street? Why do you do that? Are you controlled?
I still do not understand the math analogy you are trying to make. Not saying you are dumb, moreso the opposite.
Do you want me to explain why the blue states lead in deaths per or what? I am not pointing at them saying Dems are dumb, my point looking at blue and red states is that they handled covid differently and ultimately ended in the same spot. Blue states seem to be harsher with lockdowns and masks, whereas red states seemed to care more about freedumb (did I do it right?!)! But again, we all ended in the same place.
I am assuming POOTWH means Trump? Imagine being so bothered by someone that you go out of your way to type that as much as you do. Trump is much easier and much shorter thus saving more time. Tell me, how did his 4 years in office directly affect you? What soured you on him? Maybe send a personal message or put it in the Trump thread, as I truly do not want to derail some good discussions in here.
Yea you, see? You're not controlled and you're living your life. Why do you assume the rest of us are not?
Try again. I thought I explained it: # of dead 'Muricans/# of known cases = % death rate. Assume all 320M 'Muricans get covid, apply death % rate. That's if "do nothing herd mentality" were applied and that rate applied. Like I said, maybe its simple, maybe its stupid. But do it for TN and you get a rate of .014 versus nationally .018.
But that's to assume that they're all the same to begin with, no? They are not. They're vastly different to begin with. Populations, regions, average ages, relative health metrics, etc. And, who's the control group? Right, nobody. Yea, it certainly is freedumb, on so many levels.
Imagine respecting POOTWH enough to type his name? After four years and then voting for that POS. He's set this country back several generations on so many levels. What soured him on me? Maybe it was the Central Park 5? Maybe it was his scam of a university? Maybe it was his multiple bankruptcies? Maybe it it was his grab 'em by the pussy? Do you hope your daughter grows up to work with man like that? How do you explain POOTWH to your daughter? Shut up and take it? Maybe it was, "good people on both sides?" Maybe it was the 25K+ documented lies and mistruths spewed by a clueless man who got elected with putin on the ritz's interference? Need I go on? I'm embarrassed to be a 'Murican and have to explain that POS to foreigners. Good to know that you're not. Read the POOTWH thread if you really want to know how I feel about that POS. I've got 27K+ posts, I've got plenty of time for typing P-O-O-T-W-H, but thanks for your concern regarding my time management skills.
Are you still with the repub party? If so, can you tell me what they stand for and what their policies are regarding the major issues of the day? Thank you.
I don't expect answers from you, just another shift of the goal posts.09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©0 -
gvn2fly1421 said:
Honestly, how can you not have a little hesitation about taking the vaccine? A vaccine that was rushed and one that health officials honestly have no clue what it can or can't do? One minute it is one thing, the next minute it is another. See my Fauci post a few pages back. Last week he said Astra Zeneca was fine, nothing to see here. This week the EU halts it because of blood clots in young adults. I know what the response will be, the science is changing. What will be said when it comes out the vaccine causes cancer in several years? Obviously a hypothetical, but who truly knows what this thing will do?mrussel1 said:
I don't have an issue with you personally not taking it. I have a problem with people spreading lies or sewing distrust in vaccines.gvn2fly1421 said:
So I am selfish because I do not take the vaccine? What if parents are not taking the vaccine either, are they selfish? They are the only ones I am around that would be endangered by the virus.benjs said:
You just rotate through shitty excuses for your side's pathetic failures.gvn2fly1421 said:
And that's where this whole thing gets really, really difficult to deal with.mrussel1 said:
You're focused on the throw away line. The point still stands which you didn't address. It's true that mortality rate is very low for people that are young and without co-morbidities. But that's not the whole country as evidenced by the half million dead. The 95% vaccine effectiveness is a number that plays out across the health spectrum, whereas your 99% number is only for the very healthy. So focusing on the healthy shows a blatant disregard for a good chunk of our citizens and neighbors.gvn2fly1421 said:
I hesitate to even respond because I do not want to derail what I feel like has been good discussion, but do not lump me in with other Republicans that you see on tv or other stuff. The All Live Matter jab at the end was unnecessary. When did I ever say that?mrussel1 said:
For most healthy people... we have an aging population and co morbidity. That's why there are a half million dead. Stop minimizing that very important fact. All lives matter... remember?gvn2fly1421 said:
You may not have heard, there is a 99%* survivable virus out there.mrussel1 said:
You may not have heard, but there's a 94% effective vaccine out there.gvn2fly1421 said:
Lockdowns are effective to reduce cases. Lockdowns are also effective at delaying the inevitable. The virus is gonna virus.oftenreading said:
Looking at cases at any single point in time to argue against lockdowns is pointless, given the time lag between when lockdowns and reopenings start and when we see cases go down or up. What matters is the trends over time related to these activities, and we have good evidence that lockdowns are effective to reduce cases where they are properly implemented and where people obey them.gvn2fly1421 said:
At one point do you end the lockdown? If you told every person in America that if you locked down for a month the virus would be gone and life would be back to normal, every single person would jump at that. I know I would. The problem is, viruses are not on that same schedule. So at what point does the costs of lockdowns outweight the costs of reaching herd immunity?
*For most healthy people.
As I have stated in the past, I did not vote for that glorious orange bastard in 2016, but I did in 2020. I try to get information from all sides and form an opinion off of that. I believe women should be allowed to have an abortion. I believe in stricter gun laws. ABSO-FUCKIN-LUTELY!
One of my broader points throughout coming here is that if you cannot look at BOTH sides of the political landscape in America and laugh at the absurdity, you are too far gone.
OK, please do not derail off of that post... Back to covid...
Several have mentioned the vaccine as the "getting back to normal" point, my only concern with that is the language that the health community and the MSM is using around the vaccine (may not protect against variants, still have to mask, still have to distance, cannot travel, etc.) is a terrible message to send to get people back to normal and want to take the vaccine. What incentive does a healthy adult have to take the vaccine?
Argument 1: "If they had just done nothing, things would've been better!" - aka "virus gonna virus"
Scientific debunk of moronic statement: high transmissibility + high fatality rate + basic common sense that concentration helps viruses spread = SERIOUS FUCKING PROBLEM WITH DOING NOTHING
Argument 2: "These politicians just want to divide us, there's no problem here" - aka "politicians gonna politic"
Scientific debunk of moronic statement: high transmissibility + high fatality rate + basic common sense that concentration helps viruses spread + evidence of death with strong mitigations in place = SERIOUS FUCKING PROBLEM WITH DOING NOTHING
Argument 3: "These vaccines are stupid because I still can't live my life completely the way I used to yet" - aka "my happiness is more important than your life"
No scientific debunk needed - this is just selfish.
If you take the vaccine, you are safe, why are you worried about me?
And truly, I am all for people getting their vaccine if it makes them feel safe. You should be all for me not getting the vaccine if it makes me feelor don’t but I do have a pr. Oh boy this quote function sucksjesus greets me looks just like me ....0 -
It's 2%.. but let's extrapolate your theory. Most virologists say you need 70-85% infection rate to achieve herd immunity. So taking the middle, let's take 77.5% of the world had to be infected, and 2% of the cases ended in fatalities. That means for the 7.9 billion humans, we would have 6.1 billion cases. And that would lead to 122 million deaths. That would be compared to the current death count of 2.9 million.gvn2fly1421 said:
The go to number that everyone seems to go to is deaths. That is why I use death rates. All of them are around 1%. So if we have learned anything from looking at New Zealand, Sweden, New Brunswick, the US, etc., we have learned that cases are going to happen, virus gonna virus, no matter what is done. It seems the path we are on now is a path to having this linger for years.mrussel1 said:
Sweden's infection rates are far worse than their Scandinavian counterparts. Death rates, as I said earlier, are not about masks or social distancing. Why do you think those things are connected? Death is an outcome based on co-morbidities, availability of healthcare, and age of the infected. Why would you expect a dramatically different death rate amongst three Scando countries that have similar demographics and healthcare systems?gvn2fly1421 said:
The point you raised in the post I replied to mentioned vaccine effectiveness. I drew the conclusion that you think the vaccine is the way out. I replied to that.mrussel1 said:
There's a difference between the science of virology and social health policy. Social health policy dictates to continue to distance and mask because a minority of Americans (or maybe just 50%) have been immunized. If you tell people, once you are vaccinated, no need to do anything different, you'll have people who are NOT vaccinated start doing the same. So it's a safety first approach.gvn2fly1421 said:
And that's where this whole thing gets really, really difficult to deal with.mrussel1 said:
You're focused on the throw away line. The point still stands which you didn't address. It's true that mortality rate is very low for people that are young and without co-morbidities. But that's not the whole country as evidenced by the half million dead. The 95% vaccine effectiveness is a number that plays out across the health spectrum, whereas your 99% number is only for the very healthy. So focusing on the healthy shows a blatant disregard for a good chunk of our citizens and neighbors.gvn2fly1421 said:
I hesitate to even respond because I do not want to derail what I feel like has been good discussion, but do not lump me in with other Republicans that you see on tv or other stuff. The All Live Matter jab at the end was unnecessary. When did I ever say that?mrussel1 said:
For most healthy people... we have an aging population and co morbidity. That's why there are a half million dead. Stop minimizing that very important fact. All lives matter... remember?gvn2fly1421 said:
You may not have heard, there is a 99%* survivable virus out there.mrussel1 said:
You may not have heard, but there's a 94% effective vaccine out there.gvn2fly1421 said:
Lockdowns are effective to reduce cases. Lockdowns are also effective at delaying the inevitable. The virus is gonna virus.oftenreading said:
Looking at cases at any single point in time to argue against lockdowns is pointless, given the time lag between when lockdowns and reopenings start and when we see cases go down or up. What matters is the trends over time related to these activities, and we have good evidence that lockdowns are effective to reduce cases where they are properly implemented and where people obey them.gvn2fly1421 said:
At one point do you end the lockdown? If you told every person in America that if you locked down for a month the virus would be gone and life would be back to normal, every single person would jump at that. I know I would. The problem is, viruses are not on that same schedule. So at what point does the costs of lockdowns outweight the costs of reaching herd immunity?
*For most healthy people.
As I have stated in the past, I did not vote for that glorious orange bastard in 2016, but I did in 2020. I try to get information from all sides and form an opinion off of that. I believe women should be allowed to have an abortion. I believe in stricter gun laws. ABSO-FUCKIN-LUTELY!
One of my broader points throughout coming here is that if you cannot look at BOTH sides of the political landscape in America and laugh at the absurdity, you are too far gone.
OK, please do not derail off of that post... Back to covid...
Several have mentioned the vaccine as the "getting back to normal" point, my only concern with that is the language that the health community and the MSM is using around the vaccine (may not protect against variants, still have to mask, still have to distance, cannot travel, etc.) is a terrible message to send to get people back to normal and want to take the vaccine. What incentive does a healthy adult have to take the vaccine?
But you continue to avoid other points that I have raised and go onto something else. Everyone see the goal posts moving consistently here. Going back to what I believe your core point was, that we should have gone to herd immunity as a strategy. The one country that had that as a strategy was Sweden, and they had higher infection and mortality rates than neighboring Scandinavian countries. It has been a failure. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-prageru-sweden-herd-immunit/fact-check-sweden-has-not-achieved-herd-immunity-is-not-proof-that-lockdowns-are-useless-idUSKBN28C2R7
I went and looked at Sweden's numbers on google and they don't look awful. More people have gotten the virus and more people have died, but the percentage of people who get the virus and survive are close when compared to Norway and Finland. I have no idea how each country handled the virus, let me just get that out there before I am asked. Would anyone care to enlighten me?
What other points can I offer an opinion to that I have missed? I try to respond to any posts directed me as honest as I can.
Let that sink in. 122 million deaths under your strategy. As another comparative, a measly 75 million people died in WW2. The Influenza outbreak of 1919/20 was 50 million.
So bottom line, it's hard to agree with your theory or your statement that "virus gonna virus, no matter what".0 -
Vaccines do not provide 100% protection. The primary goal is prevention of serious and fatal disease; prevention of mild or asymptomatic disease is a bonus.josevolution said:Yeah my coworker was HughFreakingDillon said:
fully vaccinated and still got infected by her moron husband who was not vaccinated she lost her sense of taste & smell just no fever or tiredness!
interesting. last I read it didn't prevent acquisition of the virus, just symptoms and morbidity.oftenreading said:
The vaccine definitely prevents people fromHughFreakingDillon said:
I wish people would stop wishing for the quick fix. This isn't a one-pronged solution.gvn2fly1421 said:
And that's where this whole thing gets really, really difficult to deal with.mrussel1 said:
You're focused on the throw away line. The point still stands which you didn't address. It's true that mortality rate is very low for people that are young and without co-morbidities. But that's not the whole country as evidenced by the half million dead. The 95% vaccine effectiveness is a number that plays out across the health spectrum, whereas your 99% number is only for the very healthy. So focusing on the healthy shows a blatant disregard for a good chunk of our citizens and neighbors.gvn2fly1421 said:
I hesitate to even respond because I do not want to derail what I feel like has been good discussion, but do not lump me in with other Republicans that you see on tv or other stuff. The All Live Matter jab at the end was unnecessary. When did I ever say that?mrussel1 said:
For most healthy people... we have an aging population and co morbidity. That's why there are a half million dead. Stop minimizing that very important fact. All lives matter... remember?gvn2fly1421 said:
You may not have heard, there is a 99%* survivable virus out there.mrussel1 said:
You may not have heard, but there's a 94% effective vaccine out there.gvn2fly1421 said:
Lockdowns are effective to reduce cases. Lockdowns are also effective at delaying the inevitable. The virus is gonna virus.oftenreading said:
Looking at cases at any single point in time to argue against lockdowns is pointless, given the time lag between when lockdowns and reopenings start and when we see cases go down or up. What matters is the trends over time related to these activities, and we have good evidence that lockdowns are effective to reduce cases where they are properly implemented and where people obey them.gvn2fly1421 said:
At one point do you end the lockdown? If you told every person in America that if you locked down for a month the virus would be gone and life would be back to normal, every single person would jump at that. I know I would. The problem is, viruses are not on that same schedule. So at what point does the costs of lockdowns outweight the costs of reaching herd immunity?
*For most healthy people.
As I have stated in the past, I did not vote for that glorious orange bastard in 2016, but I did in 2020. I try to get information from all sides and form an opinion off of that. I believe women should be allowed to have an abortion. I believe in stricter gun laws. ABSO-FUCKIN-LUTELY!
One of my broader points throughout coming here is that if you cannot look at BOTH sides of the political landscape in America and laugh at the absurdity, you are too far gone.
OK, please do not derail off of that post... Back to covid...
Several have mentioned the vaccine as the "getting back to normal" point, my only concern with that is the language that the health community and the MSM is using around the vaccine (may not protect against variants, still have to mask, still have to distance, cannot travel, etc.) is a terrible message to send to get people back to normal and want to take the vaccine. What incentive does a healthy adult have to take the vaccine?
the scientific/medical community is being honest that protection against variants, current and future, is completely unpredictable. That's why we need to continue to be vigilant even after vaccination. otherwise vaccination on its own could end up being a complete fucking waste and we're in wave 6 with 18 new variants that are vaccine resistant.
healthy adults should get it to get as close to herd immunity as possible. the vaccine doesn't prevent one getting the virus; it may prevent symptoms, hence preventing further spread to someone who may not be as protected as they are.
there is also a lot of data that shows that "healthy adults" can die from this, and if not, have long term negative affects from it.
it would nice if we had people who saw "keeping the vulnerable safe" as an incentive, not just their own selfish convenience.
getting the virus - asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic cases are significantly reduced in those vaccinated compared to those who are not. Newer population based studies are showing that.
science gonna science.my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf0 -
Maxi, buddy, that shit you just posted is borderline deranged. Seriously, seek help man.Halifax2TheMax said:
Responding to the bold in order:gvn2fly1421 said:
I will be skipping the vaccine. See my post above, what incentive do I have to get the vaccine. I am a healthy, 38 year old man, who by government standards is "overweight" but reality is I am 6' and weigh 195. Visit the gym frequently. I feel like looking at the data from around the globe, I will take my chances with the virus. Hell, I may have already had the virus and might never know. I have never been tested. And to be totally honest, the vaccine scares me more than the virus. What are the long term effects of the vaccine? No one knows. Even the short term effects scare me a bit. I have posted several things in here of people getting the vaccine and passing away a couple of weeks later. Is the vaccine truly effective for getting back to normal? Again, see my post above. What's my incentive?Halifax2TheMax said:
Yay you, you go on with your life. You get vaccinated yet? Or you skipping it?gvn2fly1421 said:
I am sure the first line is a typo with the 5 million dead Americans so I will leave that alone.Halifax2TheMax said:That someone is okay with approximately 5,700,000 dead +/- 'Muricans so they can live normally? WTF? Nobody is stopping you from going about your life. Go to a ball game, refuse to wear a mask, don't wash your hands or socially distance, find a job and go to work, the economy is booming, find an underground rave or restaurant scene, hell go to Flo Rida. What are you scared? Staying in your basement? Stop being controlled. Fuck man, live.
There is no hope for someone who can't discern the differences and the reasons for them. Only Q knows.
Are you ok with the lives that are destroyed that are still on this Earth?
Nobody has really stopped me from going about my life. Since last May my daughter has been playing softball. She had one "outbreak" at school around Thanksgiving that kept her out for two weeks but other than that, my life hasn't been interrupted. Is it not ok to look around me and the state of the country and not question what is going on?
I extrapolated the percentage of the WaPo dead to confirmed cases and came up with a percentage death rate and applied it to the US population of 320M. Not an exact methodology but it seems to hold and helps an idiot in math like me understand shit. If all 558,000 dead 'Muricans have at least 10 friends, family or acquaintances, would that be 5 million lives thus "destroyed?" Have we not taken care of the living via the PPP, stimulus, rent freeze, etc.? Or are those inconvenient truths? And how about all of those covid survivors? You know the ones, one third who will have, perhaps, a lifetime of adverse effects? Or do they not count in your calculus of harm/benefit analysis? How many deaths are you comfortable with? Seems your "do nothing herd mentality" approach would have clearly resulted in more deaths than we have now, inclusive of cascading impacts on our healthcare delivery systems. Give me a number, how many is enough, or worth it, or indicates a failure, or a success?
Perhaps you might explain why NYC, MA, RI and NJ, all blue states with dem governors, except MA, with a dem legislature lead the pack? What commonality do they share? What were the approaches? How did they differ? And maybe most importantly, what level of compliance did they have? Did they storm the capitol to oppose mask mandates? Have you seen Michigan's numbers lately? Thoughts?
That you voted for POOTWH after 4 years of his incompetence and still don't see the light? More than I need to know. Sure, question what's going on but don't pretend you know the answers. Or provide them with links to bullshit artists out to make a buck. I'll continue to listen to the science, review history and live my life in such a way so as to keep me as safe as possible, during a global pandemic, no less. Do you look both ways before you cross the street? Why do you do that? Are you controlled?
I still do not understand the math analogy you are trying to make. Not saying you are dumb, moreso the opposite.
Do you want me to explain why the blue states lead in deaths per or what? I am not pointing at them saying Dems are dumb, my point looking at blue and red states is that they handled covid differently and ultimately ended in the same spot. Blue states seem to be harsher with lockdowns and masks, whereas red states seemed to care more about freedumb (did I do it right?!)! But again, we all ended in the same place.
I am assuming POOTWH means Trump? Imagine being so bothered by someone that you go out of your way to type that as much as you do. Trump is much easier and much shorter thus saving more time. Tell me, how did his 4 years in office directly affect you? What soured you on him? Maybe send a personal message or put it in the Trump thread, as I truly do not want to derail some good discussions in here.
Yea you, see? You're not controlled and you're living your life. Why do you assume the rest of us are not?
Try again. I thought I explained it: # of dead 'Muricans/# of known cases = % death rate. Assume all 320M 'Muricans get covid, apply death % rate. That's if "do nothing herd mentality" were applied and that rate applied. Like I said, maybe its simple, maybe its stupid. But do it for TN and you get a rate of .014 versus nationally .018.
But that's to assume that they're all the same to begin with, no? They are not. They're vastly different to begin with. Populations, regions, average ages, relative health metrics, etc. And, who's the control group? Right, nobody. Yea, it certainly is freedumb, on so many levels.
Imagine respecting POOTWH enough to type his name? After four years and then voting for that POS. He's set this country back several generations on so many levels. What soured him on me? Maybe it was the Central Park 5? Maybe it was his scam of a university? Maybe it was his multiple bankruptcies? Maybe it it was his grab 'em by the pussy? Do you hope your daughter grows up to work with man like that? How do you explain POOTWH to your daughter? Shut up and take it? Maybe it was, "good people on both sides?" Maybe it was the 25K+ documented lies and mistruths spewed by a clueless man who got elected with putin on the ritz's interference? Need I go on? I'm embarrassed to be a 'Murican and have to explain that POS to foreigners. Good to know that you're not. Read the POOTWH thread if you really want to know how I feel about that POS. I've got 27K+ posts, I've got plenty of time for typing P-O-O-T-W-H, but thanks for your concern regarding my time management skills.
Are you still with the repub party? If so, can you tell me what they stand for and what their policies are regarding the major issues of the day? Thank you.
I don't expect answers from you, just another shift of the goal posts.
As I mentioned, all that math is over my head. I look at number with Covid vs the number who died from/with covid to get my death rate. Truth is it is probably much lower due to people who never knew they had the virus.
If I didn't know any better, I would think you have been reading the BlueAnon message boards.
That Russian thing, show me again where that was proven? Turns out that was just a BlueAnon conspiracy after all.
"Good people on both sides" - Did you see the 60 minutes piece on Desantis? The media would never edit something for their own narrative would they? Nah, never. Seek the full quote from DJT.
His bankruptcies hurt you? Geez man, seriously, seek help.
Grab em by the pussy - A decades old quote. Thank God they were not in the locker room when I was a kid. Could never defend this to my daughter and never would, but my daughter would also be ashamed of some of the stuff I have done.
The 25K+ documented lies and mistruths - Do you find it funny that the media has gone silent on fact checking Biden? Biased maybe? I believe so.
I have no clue what the Central Park 5 and his scam of a university even are, but I go back to my original question, how has any of the things you listed personally affected you? Because you get embarrassed sitting around explaining Trump to foreigners?
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