I appreciate the anecdotal evidence offered here, but anecdotes can only go so far.
They basically had a trial period involving thousands of students and they had positive results so now they are going to expand on that.
I think that's perfectly reasonable and can't see the outrage.
Well, I agree for the most part. I think it’s stupid to remove some options from the school though. You don’t really need that. But less out of school suspensions makes sense. It does put more pressure on the schools so resources should be apart of that.
I appreciate the anecdotal evidence offered here, but anecdotes can only go so far.
They basically had a trial period involving thousands of students and they had positive results so now they are going to expand on that.
I think that's perfectly reasonable and can't see the outrage.
Again, in the Bee article, this is only according to the bill’s sponsors, which is just about as thin (if not thinner) than anecdotal evidence.
Where are the actual receipts (overall GPA improvements, overall behavioral/social improvements, overall acceptance to postsecondary and work-study programs, etc.)?
I appreciate the anecdotal evidence offered here, but anecdotes can only go so far.
They basically had a trial period involving thousands of students and they had positive results so now they are going to expand on that.
I think that's perfectly reasonable and can't see the outrage.
But the data is fake. They boast about suspensions being down after they ban suspensions. Well of course it’s down. Schools do shady things to bring up test scores and graduation rates. They lower the standards for individual students to get them to graduate. I was at a school in LA that had to raise math scores. They realized the lowest tested math subject was geometry. So how did they solve the problem to raise math scores? We stopped offering geometry. And guess what, math scores on average went up. in an inner city school where behavior is a chronic problem, some kids just need to be removed from the classroom. I don’t think anyone is saying that should be the best or only option, but it definitely should be an option.
Wonder if many of the people posting here are not parents?
I wanted to comment on this.
When I was in school no one or anything was going to make me behave. I was a dick in school because I enjoyed being one. I was frequently punished so I had to be good for a bit then it was back at raising hell again.
Had 2 parents that were engaged and believed the teachers first over me, that was for sure because I had some teachers lie and I called them out on it.
My family took the teachers side every time, I don't think it's like that anymore?
Not having any kids I would hope that I would be a good parent and not have my kids act like I did in school, lol.
Wonder if many of the people posting here are not parents?
I wanted to comment on this.
When I was in school no one or anything was going to make me behave. I was a dick in school because I enjoyed being one. I was frequently punished so I had to be good for a bit then it was back at raising hell again.
Had 2 parents that were engaged and believed the teachers first over me, that was for sure because I had some teachers lie and I called them out on it.
My family took the teachers side every time, I don't think it's like that anymore?
Not having any kids I would hope that I would be a good parent and not have my kids act like I did in school, lol.
THIS is the problem. or part of it do a degree. the culture has moved from believing the adult to believing the kid. I can't tell you the amount of times I talk to my teacher friends about how parents come to parent teacher and accuse the teacher of bullying their kid, having some type of agenda, "not my Billy!", etc. it's fucking mind blowing.
parents are becoming friends/enablers. sometimes I have to reign in my wife from going down that path. it's an easy slope to slip on.
Wonder if many of the people posting here are not parents?
I wanted to comment on this.
When I was in school no one or anything was going to make me behave. I was a dick in school because I enjoyed being one. I was frequently punished so I had to be good for a bit then it was back at raising hell again.
Had 2 parents that were engaged and believed the teachers first over me, that was for sure because I had some teachers lie and I called them out on it.
My family took the teachers side every time, I don't think it's like that anymore?
Not having any kids I would hope that I would be a good parent and not have my kids act like I did in school, lol.
I think the reason for my assumption was due to so many condemning poor behavior by children at school as having poor/disengaged parents at home.
(Clearly you are not one with your statement above)
Most anyone who raised/tried to raise kids should be able to recognize that some kids are going to be difficult. If your kids were great, great. I am sure you know someone whose kid(s) acted like little bastards in spite of solid parents/upbringing.
Attempting to raise someone else's fucked up kid showed me just how much this could be the case.
Are there people who might yield different results? Oh, certainly.
Did we do a crap job and were we disengaged? Oh, hell no.
I do, very much, agree with your point/question about the way that parents support the teachers and school. In my experience, the general belief from the parent is that everything should be about their child(ren) and not that the child(ren) should be a part of the best experience for the class/school. Where we live the parents run roughshod over the administration --- little Joshua could not possibly do anything wrong.
Wonder if many of the people posting here are not parents?
Have not personally reproduced but have been a parent and teacher, both. Parents can't totally control how a kid will turn out but the more engaged they are in parenting, the more they take on the responsibility of learning how to be a good parent, the more likely the kid is to grow up happy, loving, successful, and less of a pain in the ass.
Post edited by brianlux on
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Wonder if many of the people posting here are not parents?
Have not personally reproduced but have been a parent and teacher, both. Parents can't totally control how a kid will turn out but the more engaged they are in parenting, the more they take on the responsibility of learning how to be a good parent, the more likely the kid is to grow up happy, loving, successful, and less of a pain in the ass.
% wise, I am sure you are correct. I would never argue against that sort of thought.
I do not think there is a sliding scale on an individual kid, however.
Those individual cases add up...meaning there is a percentage of kids who just fight the powers that be, in my opinion...and the schools need to have the power to suspend in school, out of school, expel, disregard what the parents' opinion may be, etc...and up to 2 days may not cut it...and if the kid is too much of a problem I don't really care that it is called 'lost time.' Don't legislate based on cooked stats, allow the schools the ability to police it how they can.
Wonder if many of the people posting here are not parents?
Have not personally reproduced but have been a parent and teacher, both. Parents can't totally control how a kid will turn out but the more engaged they are in parenting, the more they take on the responsibility of learning how to be a good parent, the more likely the kid is to grow up happy, loving, successful, and less of a pain in the ass.
% wise, I am sure you are correct. I would never argue against that sort of thought.
I do not think there is a sliding scale on an individual kid, however.
Those individual cases add up...meaning there is a percentage of kids who just fight the powers that be, in my opinion...and the schools need to have the power to suspend in school, out of school, expel, disregard what the parents' opinion may be, etc...and up to 2 days may not cut it...and if the kid is too much of a problem I don't really care that it is called 'lost time.' Don't legislate based on cooked stats, allow the schools the ability to police it how they can.
I think basically what you're saying is to look at things case-by-case. If so, I totally agree. The kid who constantly beats on other kids, sets fire to the trash can, breaks windows, etc., that's the kind of kid that likely should be suspended, maybe given counseling or something. But some kids who are rebellious can turn out great. Tom Petty was a classic example- a total fuck up in school, an absolutely terrific success in life.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I just had a great idea. Let's tell the parents this:
"OK, here's the deal- you don't want us to suspend your kids when they disrupt the class and make the teacher's job miserable. So here's what we'll do- instead of suspending the kids for x number of days, we'll keep them and send you a prisoner for x number of days. That way, you get to see what might become of your kids if you keep fucking up your parenting. Deal? Deal."
What do think? Too much?
To be fair I don’t hear parents complain about it hardly at all. It’s the politicians, school board and civil rights organizations that cause all the fuss. i have a handful of really challenging kids right now, the parents are either uninvolved or don’t care, or totally support consequences. But the school is afraid to enforce anything because of big organizations.
"Parents uninvolved or don't care", as you say, is a big part of it. But how the hell do we get parents to care? It's a vicious cycle.
I agree it’s a big part of the problem. Was just pointing out it doesn’t seem to be that parents are behind banning suspensions though. I’ve heard parents say “my daughter doesn’t need to graduate, her only job is to give me grand babies” or “when he’s at school he’s your problem, stop calling me about his behavior.” It’s really sad. I don’t know how to get parents like that to care.
That is sad, for sure.
Lack of parenting (amongst other social ills) is definitely a huge part of the problem. Kids and families like these have generations of trauma which results in poor parenting skills and poor coping skills. They don't know what to do half the time because these kids have some intense challenges. The changes have to be at the societal level and we have to be all in for it to take hold. Until that happens people will continue to screw up their kids and, schools then the rest of society will have to try to "deal with them" which means primarily punishment not rehabilitation nor any true long term fix. Suspensions are immediate ways to deal, which are needed, but until we try to tackle the underlying issues you won't see change.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
Parents are definitely part of the problem a lot of the time. But some of the harshest parents I’ve come across have some of the worst kids in class too, so it’s not always the case. There’s lots of reasons why, schools often make excuse and excuse for the kid that will enable this behavior. I have several kids diagnosed with ODD (opposition defiance disorder) and they have a 504 or IEP which is a legal document that literally says they can’t be punished for behavior (unless it’s violent or threatening) and are allowed to leave class and cool down whenever they want and so on. Studies show ODD is a real thing, but a man-made problem rooted in lack of structure and discipline to begin with, and so we solve it by continuing to do exactly that?
My parents were very strict, but my brother was a major problem is school. Getting in lots of fights and constant disruption, kicked out of school, would vandalize things and so on. He was always grounded at home, had professional counseling, my dad took him to work and locked him in a cell for an evening (he’s a cop), doctors filled him with drugs and nothing ever helped or improved. We found out about 20 years later that he was sexually abused by our next door neighbor, and this lasted for 2-3 years. He never told a single person for 20 years, but the timeline was exactly when all this started. My parents felt terribly guilty for not knowing. My dad arrested dozens of guys like this but didn’t know the guy next door. I felt horrible thinking back, I regularly made fun of his dirty underwear. Turns out he refused to wipe himself for years because of the physical harm this guy did. Ive only shared this story with a couple of the closest people in my life. I share it here because no one really knows me so I feel comfortable, but it is also a good reminder that no matter how big of a pain a kid is, we may not know what is really going on. My brother deserved to be suspended and in trouble at school. But he didn’t deserve to be called a loser at many parents conferences and told he wouldn’t amount to anything. That happened a lot unfortunately. We need to discipline kids, but we also need compassion for them. We probably don’t know the reason for their behavior.
Parents are definitely part of the problem a lot of the time. But some of the harshest parents I’ve come across have some of the worst kids in class too, so it’s not always the case. There’s lots of reasons why, schools often make excuse and excuse for the kid that will enable this behavior. I have several kids diagnosed with ODD (opposition defiance disorder) and they have a 504 or IEP which is a legal document that literally says they can’t be punished for behavior (unless it’s violent or threatening) and are allowed to leave class and cool down whenever they want and so on. Studies show ODD is a real thing, but a man-made problem rooted in lack of structure and discipline to begin with, and so we solve it by continuing to do exactly that?
My parents were very strict, but my brother was a major problem is school. Getting in lots of fights and constant disruption, kicked out of school, would vandalize things and so on. He was always grounded at home, had professional counseling, my dad took him to work and locked him in a cell for an evening (he’s a cop), doctors filled him with drugs and nothing ever helped or improved. We found out about 20 years later that he was sexually abused by our next door neighbor, and this lasted for 2-3 years. He never told a single person for 20 years, but the timeline was exactly when all this started. My parents felt terribly guilty for not knowing. My dad arrested dozens of guys like this but didn’t know the guy next door. I felt horrible thinking back, I regularly made fun of his dirty underwear. Turns out he refused to wipe himself for years because of the physical harm this guy did. Ive only shared this story with a couple of the closest people in my life. I share it here because no one really knows me so I feel comfortable, but it is also a good reminder that no matter how big of a pain a kid is, we may not know what is really going on. My brother deserved to be suspended and in trouble at school. But he didn’t deserve to be called a loser at many parents conferences and told he wouldn’t amount to anything. That happened a lot unfortunately. We need to discipline kids, but we also need compassion for them. We probably don’t know the reason for their behavior.
Damn, Mace, that is a heartbreaking story. I'm sorry to hear that. I can't imagine.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Parents are definitely part of the problem a lot of the time. But some of the harshest parents I’ve come across have some of the worst kids in class too, so it’s not always the case. There’s lots of reasons why, schools often make excuse and excuse for the kid that will enable this behavior. I have several kids diagnosed with ODD (opposition defiance disorder) and they have a 504 or IEP which is a legal document that literally says they can’t be punished for behavior (unless it’s violent or threatening) and are allowed to leave class and cool down whenever they want and so on. Studies show ODD is a real thing, but a man-made problem rooted in lack of structure and discipline to begin with, and so we solve it by continuing to do exactly that?
My parents were very strict, but my brother was a major problem is school. Getting in lots of fights and constant disruption, kicked out of school, would vandalize things and so on. He was always grounded at home, had professional counseling, my dad took him to work and locked him in a cell for an evening (he’s a cop), doctors filled him with drugs and nothing ever helped or improved. We found out about 20 years later that he was sexually abused by our next door neighbor, and this lasted for 2-3 years. He never told a single person for 20 years, but the timeline was exactly when all this started. My parents felt terribly guilty for not knowing. My dad arrested dozens of guys like this but didn’t know the guy next door. I felt horrible thinking back, I regularly made fun of his dirty underwear. Turns out he refused to wipe himself for years because of the physical harm this guy did. Ive only shared this story with a couple of the closest people in my life. I share it here because no one really knows me so I feel comfortable, but it is also a good reminder that no matter how big of a pain a kid is, we may not know what is really going on. My brother deserved to be suspended and in trouble at school. But he didn’t deserve to be called a loser at many parents conferences and told he wouldn’t amount to anything. That happened a lot unfortunately. We need to discipline kids, but we also need compassion for them. We probably don’t know the reason for their behavior.
WOW.
How is your brother doing now? Is he leading as much as he could, a normal life?
Parents are definitely part of the problem a lot of the time. But some of the harshest parents I’ve come across have some of the worst kids in class too, so it’s not always the case. There’s lots of reasons why, schools often make excuse and excuse for the kid that will enable this behavior. I have several kids diagnosed with ODD (opposition defiance disorder) and they have a 504 or IEP which is a legal document that literally says they can’t be punished for behavior (unless it’s violent or threatening) and are allowed to leave class and cool down whenever they want and so on. Studies show ODD is a real thing, but a man-made problem rooted in lack of structure and discipline to begin with, and so we solve it by continuing to do exactly that?
My parents were very strict, but my brother was a major problem is school. Getting in lots of fights and constant disruption, kicked out of school, would vandalize things and so on. He was always grounded at home, had professional counseling, my dad took him to work and locked him in a cell for an evening (he’s a cop), doctors filled him with drugs and nothing ever helped or improved. We found out about 20 years later that he was sexually abused by our next door neighbor, and this lasted for 2-3 years. He never told a single person for 20 years, but the timeline was exactly when all this started. My parents felt terribly guilty for not knowing. My dad arrested dozens of guys like this but didn’t know the guy next door. I felt horrible thinking back, I regularly made fun of his dirty underwear. Turns out he refused to wipe himself for years because of the physical harm this guy did. Ive only shared this story with a couple of the closest people in my life. I share it here because no one really knows me so I feel comfortable, but it is also a good reminder that no matter how big of a pain a kid is, we may not know what is really going on. My brother deserved to be suspended and in trouble at school. But he didn’t deserve to be called a loser at many parents conferences and told he wouldn’t amount to anything. That happened a lot unfortunately. We need to discipline kids, but we also need compassion for them. We probably don’t know the reason for their behavior.
... it is also a good reminder that no matter how big of a pain a kid is, we may not know what is really going on.
I think that's the crux of the matter. While all kids act out in some way, very few act out in serious ways unless there is something important going on. Sometimes we know what that pain is, and sometimes we have no idea. Your brother's story is terribly sad, and all too common.
He did the best he could at the time, unwilling to admit to what was happening and not knowing any other way to cope. Your parents did the best they could, and so did you. I hope he's been able to find some measure of peace.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Parents are definitely part of the problem a lot of the time. But some of the harshest parents I’ve come across have some of the worst kids in class too, so it’s not always the case. There’s lots of reasons why, schools often make excuse and excuse for the kid that will enable this behavior. I have several kids diagnosed with ODD (opposition defiance disorder) and they have a 504 or IEP which is a legal document that literally says they can’t be punished for behavior (unless it’s violent or threatening) and are allowed to leave class and cool down whenever they want and so on. Studies show ODD is a real thing, but a man-made problem rooted in lack of structure and discipline to begin with, and so we solve it by continuing to do exactly that?
My parents were very strict, but my brother was a major problem is school. Getting in lots of fights and constant disruption, kicked out of school, would vandalize things and so on. He was always grounded at home, had professional counseling, my dad took him to work and locked him in a cell for an evening (he’s a cop), doctors filled him with drugs and nothing ever helped or improved. We found out about 20 years later that he was sexually abused by our next door neighbor, and this lasted for 2-3 years. He never told a single person for 20 years, but the timeline was exactly when all this started. My parents felt terribly guilty for not knowing. My dad arrested dozens of guys like this but didn’t know the guy next door. I felt horrible thinking back, I regularly made fun of his dirty underwear. Turns out he refused to wipe himself for years because of the physical harm this guy did. Ive only shared this story with a couple of the closest people in my life. I share it here because no one really knows me so I feel comfortable, but it is also a good reminder that no matter how big of a pain a kid is, we may not know what is really going on. My brother deserved to be suspended and in trouble at school. But he didn’t deserve to be called a loser at many parents conferences and told he wouldn’t amount to anything. That happened a lot unfortunately. We need to discipline kids, but we also need compassion for them. We probably don’t know the reason for their behavior.
jesus, how awful. that puts things in a bit better perspective. thank you.
It took a long time but he is good now. He told my parents and his wife about it the same day when his oldest son was the same age he was (about 9) and it was bringing back a lot of memories. My parents only told me, with my brother’s permission, because when they asked if I was there too he didn’t know. He remembers almost nothing for a period of 4 or 5 years. He doesn’t remember family vacations we took or Christmas mornings, so he honestly didn’t know if I was a victim too or not. I know he struggled for a long time, and labeled as a lost cause to many. But he’s good now, and spoils his kids a lot which I think is part of his recovering process. I struggled with guilt for a little bit too when I learned. My parents asked me what I remembered about the couple next door. After saying several times that I didn’t really remember them and being asked again I finally said the only thing I remember was they had cats. One day a cat was dead in the front yard and he accused my brother and I of killing it. Then he suddenly changed his attitude and said it must have been hit by a car. That was all I remembered. My parents looked like they saw a ghost. That was the same story my brother told, only he lured my brother inside and told me to go home. He doesn’t remember me being told to go home and I don’t remember him being told to go inside. He was about 9 and I was about 6. He was a senior in high school before he stopped having problems in school and under constant threat of expulsion.
I appreciate the kind responses. But I shared as a reminder kids deal with so much. We may not know what’s going on, and it’s easy to get angry.
Comments
They basically had a trial period involving thousands of students and they had positive results so now they are going to expand on that.
I think that's perfectly reasonable and can't see the outrage.
Where are the actual receipts (overall GPA improvements, overall behavioral/social improvements, overall acceptance to postsecondary and work-study programs, etc.)?
Schools do shady things to bring up test scores and graduation rates. They lower the standards for individual students to get them to graduate. I was at a school in LA that had to raise math scores. They realized the lowest tested math subject was geometry. So how did they solve the problem to raise math scores? We stopped offering geometry. And guess what, math scores on average went up.
in an inner city school where behavior is a chronic problem, some kids just need to be removed from the classroom. I don’t think anyone is saying that should be the best or only option, but it definitely should be an option.
When I was in school no one or anything was going to make me behave. I was a dick in school because I enjoyed being one. I was frequently punished so I had to be good for a bit then it was back at raising hell again.
Had 2 parents that were engaged and believed the teachers first over me, that was for sure because I had some teachers lie and I called them out on it.
My family took the teachers side every time, I don't think it's like that anymore?
Not having any kids I would hope that I would be a good parent and not have my kids act like I did in school, lol.
parents are becoming friends/enablers. sometimes I have to reign in my wife from going down that path. it's an easy slope to slip on.
www.headstonesband.com
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
I have several kids diagnosed with ODD (opposition defiance disorder) and they have a 504 or IEP which is a legal document that literally says they can’t be punished for behavior (unless it’s violent or threatening) and are allowed to leave class and cool down whenever they want and so on. Studies show ODD is a real thing, but a man-made problem rooted in lack of structure and discipline to begin with, and so we solve it by continuing to do exactly that?
My parents were very strict, but my brother was a major problem is school. Getting in lots of fights and constant disruption, kicked out of school, would vandalize things and so on. He was always grounded at home, had professional counseling, my dad took him to work and locked him in a cell for an evening (he’s a cop), doctors filled him with drugs and nothing ever helped or improved.
We found out about 20 years later that he was sexually abused by our next door neighbor, and this lasted for 2-3 years. He never told a single person for 20 years, but the timeline was exactly when all this started. My parents felt terribly guilty for not knowing. My dad arrested dozens of guys like this but didn’t know the guy next door. I felt horrible thinking back, I regularly made fun of his dirty underwear. Turns out he refused to wipe himself for years because of the physical harm this guy did.
Ive only shared this story with a couple of the closest people in my life. I share it here because no one really knows me so I feel comfortable, but it is also a good reminder that no matter how big of a pain a kid is, we may not know what is really going on.
My brother deserved to be suspended and in trouble at school. But he didn’t deserve to be called a loser at many parents conferences and told he wouldn’t amount to anything. That happened a lot unfortunately.
We need to discipline kids, but we also need compassion for them. We probably don’t know the reason for their behavior.
How is your brother doing now? Is he leading as much as he could, a normal life?
... it is also a good reminder that no matter how big of a pain a kid is, we may not know what is really going on.
I think that's the crux of the matter. While all kids act out in some way, very few act out in serious ways unless there is something important going on. Sometimes we know what that pain is, and sometimes we have no idea. Your brother's story is terribly sad, and all too common.
He did the best he could at the time, unwilling to admit to what was happening and not knowing any other way to cope. Your parents did the best they could, and so did you. I hope he's been able to find some measure of peace.
www.headstonesband.com
He remembers almost nothing for a period of 4 or 5 years. He doesn’t remember family vacations we took or Christmas mornings, so he honestly didn’t know if I was a victim too or not.
I know he struggled for a long time, and labeled as a lost cause to many. But he’s good now, and spoils his kids a lot which I think is part of his recovering process.
I struggled with guilt for a little bit too when I learned. My parents asked me what I remembered about the couple next door. After saying several times that I didn’t really remember them and being asked again I finally said the only thing I remember was they had cats. One day a cat was dead in the front yard and he accused my brother and I of killing it. Then he suddenly changed his attitude and said it must have been hit by a car. That was all I remembered. My parents looked like they saw a ghost. That was the same story my brother told, only he lured my brother inside and told me to go home. He doesn’t remember me being told to go home and I don’t remember him being told to go inside. He was about 9 and I was about 6. He was a senior in high school before he stopped having problems in school and under constant threat of expulsion.
I appreciate the kind responses. But I shared as a reminder kids deal with so much. We may not know what’s going on, and it’s easy to get angry.