17 year old dutch rape victim denied euthania starves self to death.

Renfield

PJ_Soul said:

Mental pain and physical pain are really not that different at all. This must be what you are not not realizing. In fact, mental pain is often far worse.

Btw, I rather misunderstood the story. I actually thought she won her right to die peacefully (and chose to do so at home). But no, seems like the courts thought the same way as you, and the result of that is that she died horribly, by starving herself to death. How awful for her and her family. If only the court had recognized that they were actually causing her further suffering by not respecting her right to her own self. So sad, and it makes me angry.

I posted an article from The Washington Post just a bit ago in this thread.... Noa was denied legal euthanasia by the clinic.  She was provided palliative care at home, where she died.
This article covers it as well how everyone but The Netherlands reported it inaccurately.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/noa-pothoven-euthanasia-that-wasnt-suicide-mental-illness-anorexia/amp/

Jammalambo

PJ_Soul said:

Mental pain and physical pain are really not that different at all. This must be what you are not not realizing. In fact, mental pain is often far worse.

There are debilitating physical illness that cannot be cured, and can only degrade with time. Mental pain, on the other hand, can be debilitating as well, but there's at least ALWAYS a possibility to recover from it. That's the difference you appear to not be realizing. 

mickeyrat

Jammalambo said:

PJ_Soul said:

Mental pain and physical pain are really not that different at all. This must be what you are not not realizing. In fact, mental pain is often far worse.

There are debilitating physical illness that cannot be cured, and can only degrade with time. Mental pain, on the other hand, can be debilitating as well, but there's at least ALWAYS a possibility to recover from it. That's the difference you appear to not be realizing. 

with an equal possiblity of not recovering

Thoughts_Arrive

PJ_Soul said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

At least it wasn't painful. I'd rather go out that way than by a violent and painful method like hanging or shooting.

Of course. Obviously this is a terrible story and just completely tragic, and there are all kinds of things I could say about what this poor girl went through and about the issue of the threats girls and women have to deal with, and the lack of support available to them. But instead I will look at the issue of euthanasia and how it was used in this case. I think this is a groundbreaking case that is actually positive solely in terms of the precedent it sets for euthanasia and how it's applied. I am a huge advocate for doctor assisted suicide, and think that the laws surrounding it are too strict when it comes to the reasons used to justify doing it. I think everyone over the age of 16 should be able to end their life if they want to, assuming they meet the mental health standards (i.e. are of sound mind at the time of the decision, or expressed their desires in a legal document when they were of sound mind). That this was done for someone with crippling depression and simply no desire to live anymore out of sheer misery (which is so so sad) is a true milestone for people who want complete autonomy over their own selves. I think that forcing people who want to die to resort to hanging and ODing and shooting themselves in the face and jumping off buildings is completely inhumane, to both the person who wants to end their life, and to their loved ones.

Yes well said. 
Better that way then traumatising a train driver by jumping in front of a train. Or traumatising family when they find your hanging body.
If we treat and see mental illness the same as we see physical illnesses like terminal cancer then this should not be a problem.

Thoughts_Arrive

I am against the death penalty too btw, I don't feel comfortable with it given that many people get wrongly convicted, especially African American men.

cincybearcat

jeffbr said:

Jammalambo said:

PJ_Soul said:

Jammalambo said:

PJ_Soul said:

Jammalambo said:

What a shitty world this is.. if there was a bit of justice, her rapists should have been offered to her as an attempt trying to heal her soul, if possible at all.. like, they should have given her the opportunity to kill those pieces of shit, and see if that was of any help. Why she had to go, and those useless fuckers are still here?

I don't think most people feel better when they kill other human beings.

I know. I was trying to make a point, I'll try to be more clear: better have the rapists dead, than the victim of the rape. Did they even ask her about it? What if maybe killing them would have had her feeling even just a little better? Try all solutions in extreme cases like this. If you think about it, accepting that a person can freely decide to take their own life and help them with the process (expecially if so young and not because of debilitating physical issues) is just a death sentence, plain and simple. So why don't give the same death sentence to the monsters that are the cause of it all in the first place? I'm absolutely not trying to find a simple and magical solution (there's never one) but think about it. I'm not saying that she would have felt better, or even accepted to do it. Just that she should have had the choice to do it.

Obviously that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness). Why would they have asked her about the impossible?

"if there was a bit of justice.." I started with this, not implying that's how things actually work, just that it's my concept of justice.

Let me ask you one question: are you against death sentence in general? (your "that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness)" sentence makes me guess you are)

So, helping a depressed rape victim to die (death sentence) is ok, but killing a rapist (another death sentence) is not ok? I know that's not how things work. Just trying not to be a hypocrite (talking about myself, not about you or anyone else of course)

Well, one is a consensual death, the other isn't so I don't see her position as hypocritical. But I also sympathize with your hypothetical. I know if I was the father of the poor girl, I would relish the opportunity to put that shitstain out of my daughter's misery. But I'm vengeful like that whe it comes to family.

Consensual death huh.....bullshit. Driven to death. Like that girl with Ted Kennedy. 

cincybearcat

mickeyrat said:

Jammalambo said:

PJ_Soul said:

Jammalambo said:

PJ_Soul said:

Jammalambo said:

PJ_Soul said:

Jammalambo said:

What a shitty world this is.. if there was a bit of justice, her rapists should have been offered to her as an attempt trying to heal her soul, if possible at all.. like, they should have given her the opportunity to kill those pieces of shit, and see if that was of any help. Why she had to go, and those useless fuckers are still here?

I don't think most people feel better when they kill other human beings.

I know. I was trying to make a point, I'll try to be more clear: better have the rapists dead, than the victim of the rape. Did they even ask her about it? What if maybe killing them would have had her feeling even just a little better? Try all solutions in extreme cases like this. If you think about it, accepting that a person can freely decide to take their own life and help them with the process (expecially if so young and not because of debilitating physical issues) is just a death sentence, plain and simple. So why don't give the same death sentence to the monsters that are the cause of it all in the first place? I'm absolutely not trying to find a simple and magical solution (there's never one) but think about it. I'm not saying that she would have felt better, or even accepted to do it. Just that she should have had the choice to do it.

Obviously that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness). Why would they have asked her about the impossible?

"if there was a bit of justice.." I started with this, not implying that's how things actually work, just that it's my concept of justice.

Let me ask you one question: are you against death sentence in general? (your "that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness)" sentence makes me guess you are)

So, helping a depressed rape victim to die (death sentence) is ok, but killing a rapist (another death sentence) is not ok? I know that's not how things work. Just trying not to be a hypocrite (talking about myself, not about you or anyone else of course)

I am vehemently against the death penalty, yes. And I am vehemently for euthanasia rights. Euthanasia is NOTHING like the death penalty, except in one way: the state not having the right to dictate life and death to its citizens, ever. NO state should ever be able to have that kind of power over anyone else. So it shouldn't be able to tell someone they can't die when they want to, any more than it should be able to take someone's life. This also works towards the pro-choice stance, which I'm obviously also vehemently for. The state should NEVER EVER be able to tell anyone what to do with their own body.

I am for euthanasia rights, too. But this is an extreme case, and to me, there's a huge difference between a case like this and somebody with a painful illness that makes life unbearable (an illness not criminally caused by anyone).

I'm from Italy, there's not death sentences here, and even euthanasia is forbidden. In some states of the US there's death sentences, right? Who's given death sentences? People who murders other people. Well, in this case, we have rapists that have caused the death of a poor young girl (she was raped at 11 years old at a home party, and at 14 by two neighbors). They deserve to die, and If that happened in the US, maybe there could have been the possibility to charge them with death sentence.

unless it was particularly egregious, rape in and of itself isnt a capital offense.

What if rape leads to someone killing themselves? 

Jammalambo

I totally didn't want to turn this thread into a death penalty debate, sorry. My fault.

Anyway... You don't see the contradiction in it, don't you? You're against death penalty because someone may turn out to be innocent (or not) in the future, BUT at the same time you're ok about letting die a young person that could recover from mental pain (or not) in the future. That tells me you care more about a criminal than you do about an innocent person. Death penalty should be given only if there's 100% evidence of the crime - legal euthanasia should be allowed to a person suffering from mental pain only if it's 100% established that said mental pain is totally incurable (is such thing even possible? I don't think so), or at the very least, after a "reasonable" amount of time has passed since the start of the mental illness/pain, and nothing's changed. In this case, in my opinion, not enough time has passed (six years from the first episode and just three years from the second), not to mention 17 is way, way, way too young.

That's just what I think, free of any politics or religion thoughts (I'm atheist). That's what my mind suggests me. Some of you seem to be very sure that what happened was the best solution for her. I have my doubts.

mickeyrat

cincybearcat said:

mickeyrat said:

Jammalambo said:

PJ_Soul said:

Jammalambo said:

PJ_Soul said:

Jammalambo said:

PJ_Soul said:

Jammalambo said:

What a shitty world this is.. if there was a bit of justice, her rapists should have been offered to her as an attempt trying to heal her soul, if possible at all.. like, they should have given her the opportunity to kill those pieces of shit, and see if that was of any help. Why she had to go, and those useless fuckers are still here?

I don't think most people feel better when they kill other human beings.

I know. I was trying to make a point, I'll try to be more clear: better have the rapists dead, than the victim of the rape. Did they even ask her about it? What if maybe killing them would have had her feeling even just a little better? Try all solutions in extreme cases like this. If you think about it, accepting that a person can freely decide to take their own life and help them with the process (expecially if so young and not because of debilitating physical issues) is just a death sentence, plain and simple. So why don't give the same death sentence to the monsters that are the cause of it all in the first place? I'm absolutely not trying to find a simple and magical solution (there's never one) but think about it. I'm not saying that she would have felt better, or even accepted to do it. Just that she should have had the choice to do it.

Obviously that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness). Why would they have asked her about the impossible?

"if there was a bit of justice.." I started with this, not implying that's how things actually work, just that it's my concept of justice.

Let me ask you one question: are you against death sentence in general? (your "that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness)" sentence makes me guess you are)

So, helping a depressed rape victim to die (death sentence) is ok, but killing a rapist (another death sentence) is not ok? I know that's not how things work. Just trying not to be a hypocrite (talking about myself, not about you or anyone else of course)

I am vehemently against the death penalty, yes. And I am vehemently for euthanasia rights. Euthanasia is NOTHING like the death penalty, except in one way: the state not having the right to dictate life and death to its citizens, ever. NO state should ever be able to have that kind of power over anyone else. So it shouldn't be able to tell someone they can't die when they want to, any more than it should be able to take someone's life. This also works towards the pro-choice stance, which I'm obviously also vehemently for. The state should NEVER EVER be able to tell anyone what to do with their own body.

I am for euthanasia rights, too. But this is an extreme case, and to me, there's a huge difference between a case like this and somebody with a painful illness that makes life unbearable (an illness not criminally caused by anyone).

I'm from Italy, there's not death sentences here, and even euthanasia is forbidden. In some states of the US there's death sentences, right? Who's given death sentences? People who murders other people. Well, in this case, we have rapists that have caused the death of a poor young girl (she was raped at 11 years old at a home party, and at 14 by two neighbors). They deserve to die, and If that happened in the US, maybe there could have been the possibility to charge them with death sentence.

unless it was particularly egregious, rape in and of itself isnt a capital offense.

What if rape leads to someone killing themselves? 

difficult to prove, I would guess , under our system.  this would also assume the rapist was identified, tried and convicted which outside of slam dunk casrs doesnt happen as often as it should.

cincybearcat

mickeyrat said:

cincybearcat said:

mickeyrat said:

Jammalambo said:

PJ_Soul said:

Jammalambo said:

PJ_Soul said:

Jammalambo said:

PJ_Soul said:

Jammalambo said:

What a shitty world this is.. if there was a bit of justice, her rapists should have been offered to her as an attempt trying to heal her soul, if possible at all.. like, they should have given her the opportunity to kill those pieces of shit, and see if that was of any help. Why she had to go, and those useless fuckers are still here?

I don't think most people feel better when they kill other human beings.

I know. I was trying to make a point, I'll try to be more clear: better have the rapists dead, than the victim of the rape. Did they even ask her about it? What if maybe killing them would have had her feeling even just a little better? Try all solutions in extreme cases like this. If you think about it, accepting that a person can freely decide to take their own life and help them with the process (expecially if so young and not because of debilitating physical issues) is just a death sentence, plain and simple. So why don't give the same death sentence to the monsters that are the cause of it all in the first place? I'm absolutely not trying to find a simple and magical solution (there's never one) but think about it. I'm not saying that she would have felt better, or even accepted to do it. Just that she should have had the choice to do it.

Obviously that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness). Why would they have asked her about the impossible?

"if there was a bit of justice.." I started with this, not implying that's how things actually work, just that it's my concept of justice.

Let me ask you one question: are you against death sentence in general? (your "that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness)" sentence makes me guess you are)

So, helping a depressed rape victim to die (death sentence) is ok, but killing a rapist (another death sentence) is not ok? I know that's not how things work. Just trying not to be a hypocrite (talking about myself, not about you or anyone else of course)

I am vehemently against the death penalty, yes. And I am vehemently for euthanasia rights. Euthanasia is NOTHING like the death penalty, except in one way: the state not having the right to dictate life and death to its citizens, ever. NO state should ever be able to have that kind of power over anyone else. So it shouldn't be able to tell someone they can't die when they want to, any more than it should be able to take someone's life. This also works towards the pro-choice stance, which I'm obviously also vehemently for. The state should NEVER EVER be able to tell anyone what to do with their own body.

I am for euthanasia rights, too. But this is an extreme case, and to me, there's a huge difference between a case like this and somebody with a painful illness that makes life unbearable (an illness not criminally caused by anyone).

I'm from Italy, there's not death sentences here, and even euthanasia is forbidden. In some states of the US there's death sentences, right? Who's given death sentences? People who murders other people. Well, in this case, we have rapists that have caused the death of a poor young girl (she was raped at 11 years old at a home party, and at 14 by two neighbors). They deserve to die, and If that happened in the US, maybe there could have been the possibility to charge them with death sentence.

unless it was particularly egregious, rape in and of itself isnt a capital offense.

What if rape leads to someone killing themselves? 

difficult to prove, I would guess , under our system.  this would also assume the rapist was identified, tried and convicted which outside of slam dunk casrs doesnt happen as often as it should.

Certainly. This just sickens me 

mickeyrat

cincybearcat said:

mickeyrat said:

cincybearcat said:

mickeyrat said:

Jammalambo said:

PJ_Soul said:

Jammalambo said:

PJ_Soul said:

Jammalambo said:

PJ_Soul said:

Jammalambo said:

What a shitty world this is.. if there was a bit of justice, her rapists should have been offered to her as an attempt trying to heal her soul, if possible at all.. like, they should have given her the opportunity to kill those pieces of shit, and see if that was of any help. Why she had to go, and those useless fuckers are still here?

I don't think most people feel better when they kill other human beings.

I know. I was trying to make a point, I'll try to be more clear: better have the rapists dead, than the victim of the rape. Did they even ask her about it? What if maybe killing them would have had her feeling even just a little better? Try all solutions in extreme cases like this. If you think about it, accepting that a person can freely decide to take their own life and help them with the process (expecially if so young and not because of debilitating physical issues) is just a death sentence, plain and simple. So why don't give the same death sentence to the monsters that are the cause of it all in the first place? I'm absolutely not trying to find a simple and magical solution (there's never one) but think about it. I'm not saying that she would have felt better, or even accepted to do it. Just that she should have had the choice to do it.

Obviously that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness). Why would they have asked her about the impossible?

"if there was a bit of justice.." I started with this, not implying that's how things actually work, just that it's my concept of justice.

Let me ask you one question: are you against death sentence in general? (your "that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness)" sentence makes me guess you are)

So, helping a depressed rape victim to die (death sentence) is ok, but killing a rapist (another death sentence) is not ok? I know that's not how things work. Just trying not to be a hypocrite (talking about myself, not about you or anyone else of course)

I am vehemently against the death penalty, yes. And I am vehemently for euthanasia rights. Euthanasia is NOTHING like the death penalty, except in one way: the state not having the right to dictate life and death to its citizens, ever. NO state should ever be able to have that kind of power over anyone else. So it shouldn't be able to tell someone they can't die when they want to, any more than it should be able to take someone's life. This also works towards the pro-choice stance, which I'm obviously also vehemently for. The state should NEVER EVER be able to tell anyone what to do with their own body.

I am for euthanasia rights, too. But this is an extreme case, and to me, there's a huge difference between a case like this and somebody with a painful illness that makes life unbearable (an illness not criminally caused by anyone).

I'm from Italy, there's not death sentences here, and even euthanasia is forbidden. In some states of the US there's death sentences, right? Who's given death sentences? People who murders other people. Well, in this case, we have rapists that have caused the death of a poor young girl (she was raped at 11 years old at a home party, and at 14 by two neighbors). They deserve to die, and If that happened in the US, maybe there could have been the possibility to charge them with death sentence.

unless it was particularly egregious, rape in and of itself isnt a capital offense.

What if rape leads to someone killing themselves? 

difficult to prove, I would guess , under our system.  this would also assume the rapist was identified, tried and convicted which outside of slam dunk casrs doesnt happen as often as it should.

Certainly. This just sickens me 

we had to wait for karma.

my dad agreed to a plea deal that saw a 6 month sentence the year she died after a mistrial before she died in 1988.

In Aug of 2006 afterl eaving an illegal card or dice game , Chester A Harris was shot, in the gut , and died alone in an alley under a broken streetlight on 2 Aug 2006sometime after 9pm.

mickeyrat

@catefrances seems we need to change the title.  turns out to have been misreported  by english language media.

it should read "17 ye old rape victim denied euthanasia, starves herself instead"

was posted earlier here...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/05/an-anguished-dutch-teenager-who-was-raped-child-is-euthanized-her-request/?utm_term=.4fc9208cc48e

Meltdown99

If it's been corrected what really happens, I apologize.  The headlines are inaccurate.  She ended up starving herself, end of life clinics have refused her case.  

josevolution

josevolution said:

mickeyrat said:

Renfield said:

mickeyrat said:

My sister, 31 yrs gone now. OD......

I’m so sorry about your sister. 

thank you. Amanda was about 6 to 7 weeks shy of turning 16.  wow shes been gone about twice as long as she was here.

having read some comments on adbook under this article I wanted to illustrate it happens anyway without direct medical assistance.

I would assume or hope that young lady had loved ones with her as she went.

So sorry to read about your sister, my daughter has battled Depression, and anxiety along with eating disorder , so I’ve been worried about her for the last 12 years she’s 22 and doing much better...

Damn I just noticed your sisters name Amanda , that’s my daughters name is Amanda ..

mickeyrat

Meltdown99 said:

If it's been corrected what really happens, I apologize.  The headlines are inaccurate.  She ended up starving herself, end of life clinics have refused her case.  

the courts did as well.....

brianlux

mickeyrat said:

@catefrances seems we need to change the title.  turns out to have been misreported  by english language media.

it should read "17 ye old rape victim denied euthanasia, starves herself instead"

was posted earlier here...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/05/an-anguished-dutch-teenager-who-was-raped-child-is-euthanized-her-request/?utm_term=.4fc9208cc48e

This makes a lot more sense.  I don't see we're at a point where any country would legalize euthanizing on a minor.  Hell, I attended Calif. legislative meeting and spoke up in favor of assisted suicide for patients with extreme illnesses.  Those illness have to be very, very likely to lead to the patients death and would involve extreme pain.  It barely passed and even then with really major restrictions.  No way is any country (yet anyway) going to allow people with mental health problems- especially minors- to be euthanized.  And I agree with PJ_Soul that mental pain can be as bad or worse (has been for me), but that kind of euthanization  still isn't going to fly with the populous as a whole.  Any measure of that type is a long way off from passing, if ever, especially when it's a minor.  

One thing worth thinking about- and I'm not 100% sure how I feel about this myself- but the question comes to my mind- is it really OK for a person in mental anguish but who is otherwise free of major disease, to ask another person to kill them?  It doesn't seem right to me.  I didn't (and very lucky me to still be here).  My friend who intentionally drank herself to death because of childhood abuse never asked anyone to kill her.  We who were her friends wanted desperately for her to live and might have speculated the concept of a merciful killing, but no one- not one single person who knew her- would have approved of that.  Hard as it is the think this or admit it, but my own feeling is that since she couldn't (or wouldn't) get the right kind of help and couldn't pull out of it, she is probably better off dead.  I hate it that she died, but I get it and I have to respect that she did it her way. 

It pisses me off that mental health is stigmatized such that people often don't get the right kind of help.  It also pisses me off that my friend didn't try harder but I guess she couldn't.  How can we know others pain?  We're not in their heads.  So suicide is an unfortunate option.  But in cases like this, I'm not so sure about euthanizing.

josevolution

Ugh so starved herself to death that’s fucking brutal no matter which way she ended her life is a tragedy ...

Thoughts_Arrive

Speaking of suicide, a young man threw himself in front of a speeding train last night at the train station near my house.
His body went into the air and knocked over two women standing on the platform. Both had to be treated at hospital for their injuries.
I feel for those traumatised women and other passengers and the train driver.
One of the women who got knocked over as his body landed on her saw him take a step back and yelled no twice trying to stop him.
This is why I support euthanasia. 

catefrances

mickeyrat said:

@catefrances seems we need to change the title.  turns out to have been misreported  by english language media.

it should read "17 ye old rape victim denied euthanasia, starves herself instead"

was posted earlier here...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/05/an-anguished-dutch-teenager-who-was-raped-child-is-euthanized-her-request/?utm_term=.4fc9208cc48e

thanks mickey.  fuckin' media.  guess i should cross fact check in future.  

mickeyrat

catefrances said:

mickeyrat said:

@catefrances seems we need to change the title.  turns out to have been misreported  by english language media.

it should read "17 ye old rape victim denied euthanasia, starves herself instead"

was posted earlier here...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/05/an-anguished-dutch-teenager-who-was-raped-child-is-euthanized-her-request/?utm_term=.4fc9208cc48e

thanks mickey.  fuckin' media.  guess i should cross fact check in future.  

credit @renfield , they found and posted first.