17 year old dutch rape victim denied euthania starves self to death.

catefrancescatefrances Posts: 28,991
edited June 6 in A Moving Train
ok so turns out noa wasnt euthanised, but died from starvation because she was denied euthanasia. either way its still a very sad story. 

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/17-year-old-dutch-girl-who-was-raped-as-a-child-is-legally-euthanized/ar-AACouuW?ocid=spartanntp  

A 17-year-old Dutch girl chose to be euthanized at her home last week after she said the pain of being raped and molested as a child had become “unbearable.”

Noa Pothoven, from Arnhem, Netherlands, wrote in an Instagram post a day before her death that she breathes “but no longer lives.” Her sister confirmed her death on Sunday. The Dutch first legalized euthanasia in 2001, the same year that Pothoven was born.

“It’s finished. I have not really been alive for so long, I survive, and not even that... I will get straight to the point: within a maximum of 10 days I will die,” Pothoven wrote in her native Dutch on Saturday. “After years of battling and fighting, I am drained. I have quit eating and drinking for a while now, and after many discussions and evaluations, it was decided to let me go because my suffering is unbearable.”

“I deliberated for quite a while whether or not I should share this, but decided to do it anyway,” Pothoven wrote to her over 9,000 followers on Instagram. “Maybe this comes as a surprise to some, given my posts about hospitalization, but my plan has been there for a long time and is not impulsive.”

Pothoven openly shared her long struggle dealing with post-traumatic stress disorder, depression, and anorexia on social media. The teenager also penned an award-winning autobiography titled Winning or Learning, which detailed her assault and rape at a young age and her work to try and overcome the psychological ramifications. She concealed the sexual abuse for many years out of a sense of shame and fear, according to reports.

In her book, she wrote that she was sexually assaulted at a school party when she was 11-years-old, and was raped by two men just three years later when she was 14 years old.

Her mother, Lisette, said at the time that her daughter’s book should be mandatory reading for social workers and those responsible for adolescent psychological care. She also publicly criticized the fragmented mental-health system in the Netherlands, calling the bureaucracy “maddening.”

Pothoven had previously sought services at the End of Life Clinic in The Hague, but was reportedly turned away due to her age. Children as young as 12 can legally seek to be euthanized in the Netherlands, but a doctor must first determine that the patient’s pain is unbearable before they can be accepted. Seven such cases were accepted between 2002 and 2015, according to Alliance Vita, an international association that aids individuals and policymakers dealing with bioethical issues.

The practice was intended for those suffering from terminal cancer and similar excruciating physical conditions, but the law also allows people suffering from severe psychological pain to seek euthanasia. It is limited to those with intact mental faculties and “unbearable and hopeless suffering.”

Under Dutch law, the patient must repeatedly ask to die, a second doctor must agree in writing that the death is justified, and a post-mortem panel, made up of a doctor, a jurist, and an ethics expert, have to confirm that those requirements have been met.

Many in the country still feel uncomfortable with legal euthanasia, particularly for minors and those suffering from psychiatric illnesses.

Lisa Westerveld, a member of the House of Representatives of the Netherlands, reportedly visited Pothoven at her home in the days leading up to her death. “It was nice to see her again. It is also very unreal,” Westerveld told Dutch newspaper de Gelderlander. “Noa was incredibly strong and very open. I will never forget her. We will continue her struggle.”

Pothoven told her followers not to try and talk her out of the drastic decision. “This is my decision and it is final,” she wrote. “Love is letting go, in this case.”



hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Post edited by catefrances on
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Comments

  • RenfieldRenfield NYC NYPosts: 140
    There are no words....I’m at a complete loss for words. I hope Noa has found peace.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 27,250
    Devastating.  :frowning:
    "The answer is never the answer.  What's really interesting is the mystery.  If you seek the mystery instead of the answer, you'll always be seeking."
    -Ken Kesey
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 1,723
    That is one of the saddest things I have ever seen.
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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,859
    My sister, 31 yrs gone now. OD......
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 27,250
    mickeyrat said:
    My sister, 31 yrs gone now. OD......
    Oh man, I'm sorry.

    My friend M.  She drank herself literally to death in her 30's for the same reason.
    "The answer is never the answer.  What's really interesting is the mystery.  If you seek the mystery instead of the answer, you'll always be seeking."
    -Ken Kesey
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 11,543
    edited June 5

    Find the rapists and charge them with murder. 

    What a terrible thing for someone to feel so hopeless that they end their life after only 17 years.

    Post edited by bootlegger10 on
  • RunIntoTheRainRunIntoTheRain TexasPosts: 613
    This is heartbreaking.
  • mfc2006mfc2006 PDX--->KCPosts: 31,760
    Wow...no words at all.
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  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 21,179
    Man that’s crushing I feel such sadness over this and I look at my daughter and know I’m beyond blessed...
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • RenfieldRenfield NYC NYPosts: 140
    mickeyrat said:
    My sister, 31 yrs gone now. OD......
    I’m so sorry about your sister. 
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,859
    Renfield said:
    mickeyrat said:
    My sister, 31 yrs gone now. OD......
    I’m so sorry about your sister. 
    thank you. Amanda was about 6 to 7 weeks shy of turning 16.  wow shes been gone about twice as long as she was here.

    having read some comments on adbook under this article I wanted to illustrate it happens anyway without direct medical assistance.

    I would assume or hope that young lady had loved ones with her as she went.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Thoughts_ArriveThoughts_Arrive Melbourne, AustraliaPosts: 13,310
    At least it wasn't painful. I'd rather go out that way than by a violent and painful method like hanging or shooting.
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 3,165
    mickeyrat said:
    My sister, 31 yrs gone now. OD......

    I'm sorry, Mickey.

  • stuckinlinestuckinline Posts: 2,502
    Wow, no words...
  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 6,485
    What a tragic, heartbreaking story. And Mickey, my condolences. 
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,215
    edited June 5
    At least it wasn't painful. I'd rather go out that way than by a violent and painful method like hanging or shooting.
    Of course. Obviously this is a terrible story and just completely tragic, and there are all kinds of things I could say about what this poor girl went through and about the issue of the threats girls and women have to deal with, and the lack of support available to them. But instead I will look at the issue of euthanasia and how it was used in this case. I think this is a groundbreaking case that is actually positive solely in terms of the precedent it sets for euthanasia and how it's applied. I am a huge advocate for doctor assisted suicide, and think that the laws surrounding it are too strict when it comes to the reasons used to justify doing it. I think everyone over the age of 16 should be able to end their life if they want to, assuming they meet the mental health standards (i.e. are of sound mind at the time of the decision, or expressed their desires in a legal document when they were of sound mind). That this was done for someone with crippling depression and simply no desire to live anymore out of sheer misery (which is so so sad) is a true milestone for people who want complete autonomy over their own selves. I think that forcing people who want to die to resort to hanging and ODing and shooting themselves in the face and jumping off buildings is completely inhumane, to both the person who wants to end their life, and to their loved ones.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 6,485
    PJ_Soul said:
    At least it wasn't painful. I'd rather go out that way than by a violent and painful method like hanging or shooting.
    Of course. Obviously this is a terrible story and just completely tragic, and there are all kinds of things I could say about what this poor girl went through and about the issue of the threats girls and women have to deal with, and the lack of support available to them. But instead I will look at the issue of euthanasia and how it was used in this case. I think this is a groundbreaking case that is actually positive solely in terms of the precedent it sets for euthanasia and how it's applied. I am a huge advocate for doctor assisted suicide, and think that the laws surrounding it are too strict when it comes to the reasons used to justify doing it. I think everyone over the age of 16 should be able to end their life if they want to, assuming they meet the mental health standards (i.e. are of sound mind at the time of the decision, or expressed their desires in a legal document when they were of sound mind). That this was done for someone with crippling depression and simply no desire to live anymore out of sheer misery (which is so so sad) is a true milestone for people who want complete autonomy over their own selves. I think that forcing people who want to die to resort to hanging and ODing and shooting themselves in the face and jumping off buildings is complete in humane, to both the person who wants to end their life, and to their loved ones.
    I was thinking the same thing about this story. While I'm pleased that my state passed a euthanasia or "death with dignity" law, it really is quite strict and limited to terminal illness with a bunch of stipulations and rules. It certainly wouldn't cover a case like this. I, like you, believe that we each should have the ultimate control over our lives and our bodies, and what this young woman did, while tragic, was her choice as it should be. What she did was the ultimate expression of liberty and freedom. I'm sorry she felt that this was the choice she had to take, but glad this option was available as opposed to something less fool proof, more painful, or more damaging to those she left behind.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,079
    PJ_Soul said:
    At least it wasn't painful. I'd rather go out that way than by a violent and painful method like hanging or shooting.
    Of course. Obviously this is a terrible story and just completely tragic, and there are all kinds of things I could say about what this poor girl went through and about the issue of the threats girls and women have to deal with, and the lack of support available to them. But instead I will look at the issue of euthanasia and how it was used in this case. I think this is a groundbreaking case that is actually positive solely in terms of the precedent it sets for euthanasia and how it's applied. I am a huge advocate for doctor assisted suicide, and think that the laws surrounding it are too strict when it comes to the reasons used to justify doing it. I think everyone over the age of 16 should be able to end their life if they want to, assuming they meet the mental health standards (i.e. are of sound mind at the time of the decision, or expressed their desires in a legal document when they were of sound mind). That this was done for someone with crippling depression and simply no desire to live anymore out of sheer misery (which is so so sad) is a true milestone for people who want complete autonomy over their own selves. I think that forcing people who want to die to resort to hanging and ODing and shooting themselves in the face and jumping off buildings is completely inhumane, to both the person who wants to end their life, and to their loved ones.
    This is very sad. I honestly do not know what to think about this. My first inclination was to think that this shouldn’t be implemented for cases of depression, etc. But I really don’t know. If it was my daughter I’d be heartbroken at what happened to her and then heartbroken at her decision. There are no winners in a situation like this. 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • JammalamboJammalambo Posts: 1,179
    What a shitty world this is.. if there was a bit of justice, her rapists should have been offered to her as an attempt trying to heal her soul, if possible at all.. like, they should have given her the opportunity to kill those pieces of shit, and see if that was of any help. Why she had to go, and those useless fuckers are still here?
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,215
    What a shitty world this is.. if there was a bit of justice, her rapists should have been offered to her as an attempt trying to heal her soul, if possible at all.. like, they should have given her the opportunity to kill those pieces of shit, and see if that was of any help. Why she had to go, and those useless fuckers are still here?
    I don't think most people feel better when they kill other human beings.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • JammalamboJammalambo Posts: 1,179
    edited June 5
    PJ_Soul said:
    What a shitty world this is.. if there was a bit of justice, her rapists should have been offered to her as an attempt trying to heal her soul, if possible at all.. like, they should have given her the opportunity to kill those pieces of shit, and see if that was of any help. Why she had to go, and those useless fuckers are still here?
    I don't think most people feel better when they kill other human beings.
    I know. I was trying to make a point, I'll try to be more clear: better have the rapists dead, than the victim of the rape. Did they even ask her about it? What if maybe killing them would have had her feeling even just a little better? Try all solutions in extreme cases like this. If you think about it, accepting that a person can freely decide to take their own life and help them with the process (expecially if so young and not because of debilitating physical issues) is just a death sentence, plain and simple. So why don't give the same death sentence to the monsters that are the cause of it all in the first place? I'm absolutely not trying to find a simple and magical solution (there's never one) but think about it. I'm not saying that she would have felt better, or even accepted to do it. Just that she should have had the choice to do it.
    Post edited by Jammalambo on
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 21,179
    mickeyrat said:
    Renfield said:
    mickeyrat said:
    My sister, 31 yrs gone now. OD......
    I’m so sorry about your sister. 
    thank you. Amanda was about 6 to 7 weeks shy of turning 16.  wow shes been gone about twice as long as she was here.

    having read some comments on adbook under this article I wanted to illustrate it happens anyway without direct medical assistance.

    I would assume or hope that young lady had loved ones with her as she went.
    So sorry to read about your sister, my daughter has battled Depression, and anxiety along with eating disorder , so I’ve been worried about her for the last 12 years she’s 22 and doing much better...
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,215
    PJ_Soul said:
    What a shitty world this is.. if there was a bit of justice, her rapists should have been offered to her as an attempt trying to heal her soul, if possible at all.. like, they should have given her the opportunity to kill those pieces of shit, and see if that was of any help. Why she had to go, and those useless fuckers are still here?
    I don't think most people feel better when they kill other human beings.
    I know. I was trying to make a point, I'll try to be more clear: better have the rapists dead, than the victim of the rape. Did they even ask her about it? What if maybe killing them would have had her feeling even just a little better? Try all solutions in extreme cases like this. If you think about it, accepting that a person can freely decide to take their own life and help them with the process (expecially if so young and not because of debilitating physical issues) is just a death sentence, plain and simple. So why don't give the same death sentence to the monsters that are the cause of it all in the first place? I'm absolutely not trying to find a simple and magical solution (there's never one) but think about it. I'm not saying that she would have felt better, or even accepted to do it. Just that she should have had the choice to do it.
    Obviously that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness). Why would they have asked her about the impossible?
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • JammalamboJammalambo Posts: 1,179
    edited June 5
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    What a shitty world this is.. if there was a bit of justice, her rapists should have been offered to her as an attempt trying to heal her soul, if possible at all.. like, they should have given her the opportunity to kill those pieces of shit, and see if that was of any help. Why she had to go, and those useless fuckers are still here?
    I don't think most people feel better when they kill other human beings.
    I know. I was trying to make a point, I'll try to be more clear: better have the rapists dead, than the victim of the rape. Did they even ask her about it? What if maybe killing them would have had her feeling even just a little better? Try all solutions in extreme cases like this. If you think about it, accepting that a person can freely decide to take their own life and help them with the process (expecially if so young and not because of debilitating physical issues) is just a death sentence, plain and simple. So why don't give the same death sentence to the monsters that are the cause of it all in the first place? I'm absolutely not trying to find a simple and magical solution (there's never one) but think about it. I'm not saying that she would have felt better, or even accepted to do it. Just that she should have had the choice to do it.
    Obviously that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness). Why would they have asked her about the impossible?
    "if there was a bit of justice.." I started with this, not implying that's how things actually work, just that it's my concept of justice.
    Let me ask you one question: are you against death sentence in general? (your "that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness)" sentence makes me guess you are)
    So, helping a depressed rape victim to die (death sentence) is ok, but killing a rapist (another death sentence) is not ok? I know that's not how things work. Just trying not to be a hypocrite (talking about myself, not about you or anyone else of course)

  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 6,485
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    What a shitty world this is.. if there was a bit of justice, her rapists should have been offered to her as an attempt trying to heal her soul, if possible at all.. like, they should have given her the opportunity to kill those pieces of shit, and see if that was of any help. Why she had to go, and those useless fuckers are still here?
    I don't think most people feel better when they kill other human beings.
    I know. I was trying to make a point, I'll try to be more clear: better have the rapists dead, than the victim of the rape. Did they even ask her about it? What if maybe killing them would have had her feeling even just a little better? Try all solutions in extreme cases like this. If you think about it, accepting that a person can freely decide to take their own life and help them with the process (expecially if so young and not because of debilitating physical issues) is just a death sentence, plain and simple. So why don't give the same death sentence to the monsters that are the cause of it all in the first place? I'm absolutely not trying to find a simple and magical solution (there's never one) but think about it. I'm not saying that she would have felt better, or even accepted to do it. Just that she should have had the choice to do it.
    Obviously that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness). Why would they have asked her about the impossible?
    "if there was a bit of justice.." I started with this, not implying that's how things actually work, just that it's my concept of justice.
    Let me ask you one question: are you against death sentence in general? (your "that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness)" sentence makes me guess you are)
    So, helping a depressed rape victim to die (death sentence) is ok, but killing a rapist (another death sentence) is not ok? I know that's not how things work. Just trying not to be a hypocrite (talking about myself, not about you or anyone else of course)

    Well, one is a consensual death, the other isn't so I don't see her position as hypocritical. But I also sympathize with your hypothetical. I know if I was the father of the poor girl, I would relish the opportunity to put that shitstain out of my daughter's misery. But I'm vengeful like that whe it comes to family.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • JammalamboJammalambo Posts: 1,179
    jeffbr said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    What a shitty world this is.. if there was a bit of justice, her rapists should have been offered to her as an attempt trying to heal her soul, if possible at all.. like, they should have given her the opportunity to kill those pieces of shit, and see if that was of any help. Why she had to go, and those useless fuckers are still here?
    I don't think most people feel better when they kill other human beings.
    I know. I was trying to make a point, I'll try to be more clear: better have the rapists dead, than the victim of the rape. Did they even ask her about it? What if maybe killing them would have had her feeling even just a little better? Try all solutions in extreme cases like this. If you think about it, accepting that a person can freely decide to take their own life and help them with the process (expecially if so young and not because of debilitating physical issues) is just a death sentence, plain and simple. So why don't give the same death sentence to the monsters that are the cause of it all in the first place? I'm absolutely not trying to find a simple and magical solution (there's never one) but think about it. I'm not saying that she would have felt better, or even accepted to do it. Just that she should have had the choice to do it.
    Obviously that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness). Why would they have asked her about the impossible?
    "if there was a bit of justice.." I started with this, not implying that's how things actually work, just that it's my concept of justice.
    Let me ask you one question: are you against death sentence in general? (your "that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness)" sentence makes me guess you are)
    So, helping a depressed rape victim to die (death sentence) is ok, but killing a rapist (another death sentence) is not ok? I know that's not how things work. Just trying not to be a hypocrite (talking about myself, not about you or anyone else of course)

    Well, one is a consensual death, the other isn't so I don't see her position as hypocritical. But I also sympathize with your hypothetical. I know if I was the father of the poor girl, I would relish the opportunity to put that shitstain out of my daughter's misery. But I'm vengeful like that whe it comes to family.
    Like I said, I was the one trying not to be a hypocrite, not saying anyone here is one.
    When I was younger, I was against death sentence. Now, I just think some people really deserve to die. Rapists and pedophiles are amongst those people. I don't give two flying fucks if they don't think they should die. It's just that I've been thinking about this story all day, and I find it so depressing that a victim has been helped to die, and the ones who should be dead are still alive.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,215
    edited June 5
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    What a shitty world this is.. if there was a bit of justice, her rapists should have been offered to her as an attempt trying to heal her soul, if possible at all.. like, they should have given her the opportunity to kill those pieces of shit, and see if that was of any help. Why she had to go, and those useless fuckers are still here?
    I don't think most people feel better when they kill other human beings.
    I know. I was trying to make a point, I'll try to be more clear: better have the rapists dead, than the victim of the rape. Did they even ask her about it? What if maybe killing them would have had her feeling even just a little better? Try all solutions in extreme cases like this. If you think about it, accepting that a person can freely decide to take their own life and help them with the process (expecially if so young and not because of debilitating physical issues) is just a death sentence, plain and simple. So why don't give the same death sentence to the monsters that are the cause of it all in the first place? I'm absolutely not trying to find a simple and magical solution (there's never one) but think about it. I'm not saying that she would have felt better, or even accepted to do it. Just that she should have had the choice to do it.
    Obviously that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness). Why would they have asked her about the impossible?
    "if there was a bit of justice.." I started with this, not implying that's how things actually work, just that it's my concept of justice.
    Let me ask you one question: are you against death sentence in general? (your "that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness)" sentence makes me guess you are)
    So, helping a depressed rape victim to die (death sentence) is ok, but killing a rapist (another death sentence) is not ok? I know that's not how things work. Just trying not to be a hypocrite (talking about myself, not about you or anyone else of course)

    I am vehemently against the death penalty, yes. And I am vehemently for euthanasia rights. Euthanasia is NOTHING like the death penalty, except in one way: the state not having the right to dictate life and death to its citizens, ever, and especially not within a very fallible justice system. NO state should ever be able to have that kind of power over anyone else. So it shouldn't be able to tell someone they can't die when they want to, any more than it should be able to take someone's life. This also works towards the pro-choice stance, which I'm obviously also vehemently for. The state should NEVER EVER be able to tell anyone what to do with their own body. These kinds of things are simply not what I consider to be the state's purview, because it is damned dangerous to allow the government to have such power over individuals.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • JammalamboJammalambo Posts: 1,179
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    What a shitty world this is.. if there was a bit of justice, her rapists should have been offered to her as an attempt trying to heal her soul, if possible at all.. like, they should have given her the opportunity to kill those pieces of shit, and see if that was of any help. Why she had to go, and those useless fuckers are still here?
    I don't think most people feel better when they kill other human beings.
    I know. I was trying to make a point, I'll try to be more clear: better have the rapists dead, than the victim of the rape. Did they even ask her about it? What if maybe killing them would have had her feeling even just a little better? Try all solutions in extreme cases like this. If you think about it, accepting that a person can freely decide to take their own life and help them with the process (expecially if so young and not because of debilitating physical issues) is just a death sentence, plain and simple. So why don't give the same death sentence to the monsters that are the cause of it all in the first place? I'm absolutely not trying to find a simple and magical solution (there's never one) but think about it. I'm not saying that she would have felt better, or even accepted to do it. Just that she should have had the choice to do it.
    Obviously that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness). Why would they have asked her about the impossible?
    "if there was a bit of justice.." I started with this, not implying that's how things actually work, just that it's my concept of justice.
    Let me ask you one question: are you against death sentence in general? (your "that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness)" sentence makes me guess you are)
    So, helping a depressed rape victim to die (death sentence) is ok, but killing a rapist (another death sentence) is not ok? I know that's not how things work. Just trying not to be a hypocrite (talking about myself, not about you or anyone else of course)

    I am vehemently against the death penalty, yes. And I am vehemently for euthanasia rights. Euthanasia is NOTHING like the death penalty, except in one way: the state not having the right to dictate life and death to its citizens, ever. NO state should ever be able to have that kind of power over anyone else. So it shouldn't be able to tell someone they can't die when they want to, any more than it should be able to take someone's life. This also works towards the pro-choice stance, which I'm obviously also vehemently for. The state should NEVER EVER be able to tell anyone what to do with their own body.
    I am for euthanasia rights, too. But this is an extreme case, and to me, there's a huge difference between a case like this and somebody with a painful illness that makes life unbearable (an illness not criminally caused by anyone).
    I'm from Italy, there's not death sentences here, and even euthanasia is forbidden. In some states of the US there's death sentences, right? Who's given death sentences? People who murders other people. Well, in this case, we have rapists that have caused the death of a poor young girl (she was raped at 11 years old at a home party, and at 14 by two neighbors). They deserve to die, and If that happened in the US, maybe there could have been the possibility to charge them with death sentence.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,215
    edited June 5
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    What a shitty world this is.. if there was a bit of justice, her rapists should have been offered to her as an attempt trying to heal her soul, if possible at all.. like, they should have given her the opportunity to kill those pieces of shit, and see if that was of any help. Why she had to go, and those useless fuckers are still here?
    I don't think most people feel better when they kill other human beings.
    I know. I was trying to make a point, I'll try to be more clear: better have the rapists dead, than the victim of the rape. Did they even ask her about it? What if maybe killing them would have had her feeling even just a little better? Try all solutions in extreme cases like this. If you think about it, accepting that a person can freely decide to take their own life and help them with the process (expecially if so young and not because of debilitating physical issues) is just a death sentence, plain and simple. So why don't give the same death sentence to the monsters that are the cause of it all in the first place? I'm absolutely not trying to find a simple and magical solution (there's never one) but think about it. I'm not saying that she would have felt better, or even accepted to do it. Just that she should have had the choice to do it.
    Obviously that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness). Why would they have asked her about the impossible?
    "if there was a bit of justice.." I started with this, not implying that's how things actually work, just that it's my concept of justice.
    Let me ask you one question: are you against death sentence in general? (your "that is not how any developed nation's justice system works (thank goodness)" sentence makes me guess you are)
    So, helping a depressed rape victim to die (death sentence) is ok, but killing a rapist (another death sentence) is not ok? I know that's not how things work. Just trying not to be a hypocrite (talking about myself, not about you or anyone else of course)

    I am vehemently against the death penalty, yes. And I am vehemently for euthanasia rights. Euthanasia is NOTHING like the death penalty, except in one way: the state not having the right to dictate life and death to its citizens, ever. NO state should ever be able to have that kind of power over anyone else. So it shouldn't be able to tell someone they can't die when they want to, any more than it should be able to take someone's life. This also works towards the pro-choice stance, which I'm obviously also vehemently for. The state should NEVER EVER be able to tell anyone what to do with their own body.
    I am for euthanasia rights, too. But this is an extreme case, and to me, there's a huge difference between a case like this and somebody with a painful illness that makes life unbearable (an illness not criminally caused by anyone).
    I'm from Italy, there's not death sentences here, and even euthanasia is forbidden. In some states of the US there's death sentences, right? Who's given death sentences? People who murders other people. Well, in this case, we have rapists that have caused the death of a poor young girl (she was raped at 11 years old at a home party, and at 14 by two neighbors). They deserve to die, and If that happened in the US, maybe there could have been the possibility to charge them with death sentence.
    People who are right-minded have the right to choose to die. Period. It is not for you or anyone else, including the government, to decide when it is warranted and when it is not IMO.
    I am 100% against the DP in all cases for the reason I already stated. Whether or not someone deserves to die is, again, irrelevant IMO. It's about the power of the state, not the quality of the criminal and their crime. Saying someone deserves to die is literally pure vengeance. Hey, if you want to go out and be a vigilante and murder some rapist, go nuts and suffer the consequences. But the government should never be in the business of vengeance. Also, fwiw, many victims of terrible crimes do not feel any better at all when the criminals who caused their suffering are murdered by the state. In some cases it actually makes them feel worse, not better. So don't assume that a victim will always be better off by having their attacker killed.
    Finally, you're just talking about a completely unrealistic hypothetical here, when there is a real girl involved. I don't really see the point in suggesting it.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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