New SAT tests have "Adversity Scoring". Is this doing kids a disservice?

2

Comments

  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 18,575
    rgambs said:
    This aligns the test more closely to an IQ-style, and that's why I don't think it's nearly as bad an idea as you old curmudgeons do lol

    The SAT has never been a true aptitude test, it's always been more of a knowledge test, which is not a good measure of whether a student has the skills for higher education.  Adjusting scores to reflect the disadvantages some students face doesn't dumb everything down, and it doesn't do any of the reactionary and over-the-top things that people claim.  It gives another point of data in assessing the readiness of a student.  I think an IQ test in conjunction with knowledge tests like SAT and ACT would provide better data, but the real test of readiness for college isn't covered by either.  Note-taking, organization, and dedication are too hard to measure though so we are stuck with bad data.  Might as well try to make the little/bad it reflect as much as possible.
    If the curriculum for the SAT's/final exams is all the same then the teachers should be teaching the kids to prepare for those tests, no?

    I don't understand how or why the teacher, no matter where they are located, can't teach the kids and have them ready for the tests.

    The story of the teacher Jaime Escalante and the kids in East LA comes to mind that this is possible.

    I did ask for teachers to weigh in, I believe a few did and none of them agreed that this would be productive.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 18,575
    bbiggs said:
    ^ Yep.  Budget cuts and under-funded school districts are a huge problem in IL. The state owes several districts millions of dollars. 
    I believe the state of Washington was sued also for their lack of spending on schooling.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 27,265
    rgambs said:
    This aligns the test more closely to an IQ-style, and that's why I don't think it's nearly as bad an idea as you old curmudgeons do lol

    The SAT has never been a true aptitude test, it's always been more of a knowledge test, which is not a good measure of whether a student has the skills for higher education.  Adjusting scores to reflect the disadvantages some students face doesn't dumb everything down, and it doesn't do any of the reactionary and over-the-top things that people claim.  It gives another point of data in assessing the readiness of a student.  I think an IQ test in conjunction with knowledge tests like SAT and ACT would provide better data, but the real test of readiness for college isn't covered by either.  Note-taking, organization, and dedication are too hard to measure though so we are stuck with bad data.  Might as well try to make the little/bad it reflect as much as possible.
    If the curriculum for the SAT's/final exams is all the same then the teachers should be teaching the kids to prepare for those tests, no?

    I don't understand how or why the teacher, no matter where they are located, can't teach the kids and have them ready for the tests.

    The story of the teacher Jaime Escalante and the kids in East LA comes to mind that this is possible.

    I did ask for teachers to weigh in, I believe a few did and none of them agreed that this would be productive.
    Teachers teaching to prepare kids for the test as it stands now make sense.  That's probably the best strategy for now. 

    Making those test better/ more fair/ more truly reflective of a student's intelligence AND acknowledging any creative talent they may have may take some time.  The first words I heard, the first thing I learned on the first day of the first college education course I ever took was this:

    "You probably all came into the education program here with a lot of high hopes and aspirations to make changes for the better to  the educational system in America.  That's very admirable, but the first thing you need to know is this:  the educational system in America is a static institution and static institutions are
    very
    slow
    to change."
    "The answer is never the answer.  What's really interesting is the mystery.  If you seek the mystery instead of the answer, you'll always be seeking."
    -Ken Kesey
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 3,502
    edited May 21
    brianlux said:
    I'm no longer teaching but in the past have put in a total of about 9 years teaching in various capacities including grade schools and community college. 

    My thinking is that "adversity scoring" is an OK idea in terms of intentions, but not in terms of finding a good, viable, long-term solution.  I think in a way it's putting the cart before the horse.  I would propose this problem be tackled in two stages:

    1.  Make SAT test fair for all cultural groups and socio-economic levels through careful wording of test questions.  A misunderstood question due to wording does not necessarily reflect intelligence or lack thereof.  So in other words, reduce the question biases as much as possible.

    2.  Secondly, I think we would do well to work toward eliminating as much as possible conditions that create adversity in the first place.  Many will argue that this is unrealistic.  "There always have been and always will be the poor", they will say.  Yes, true, but what are we doing to reduce the discrepancies in socio-economic levels?  Doing what we can to reduce discrimination, prejudice and bigotry is the most important first step.  Recognizing and facing our own biases is the first part of that process.  What I'm proposing is a long, uphill task, but I think it's one worth striving for.

    And I would add two other things:

    1.  Demand that teaching be treated as, and carried out as a profession, not a baby sitting job.  Teachers need to be trained at a higher level in America than they are and then compensated at an appropriate professional level.  Believe me, I've seen some very incompetent people working in this field. 

    2.  Likewise, if not demand then at least strongly encourage students to excel both in scholastic learning as well as in social skills and creativity.  Eliminate the bullshit "everyone is a winner" nonsense (we've discussed this in HFD's excellent thread on "inclusion").  Get real.  In the larger sense, we in America have failed at our job of educating our youth and, as a result, our youth are failing as well.  The "dumbing down" of America is a real and tragic condition.
    In response to your second #1.
    its the culture and parents that treat teaching as a babysitting job. An example would be this time last year we had teacher walkouts in a state that’s ranked among the worst in teacher pay. The letters to the editor in the local paper were laughable. Parents complained mostly about having to find childcare and couldn’t care less about the outdated buildings and teacher pay they were fighting for. Parents expect teachers to parent their kids more than teach.
    in terms of training, there’s a ton of training. Every few years the state requires more professional development, more certificates, more everything (that it almost always paid for out of pocket by the teacher). For example Colorado just passed a law (I don’t know if it’s law, a bill, or whatever) that teachers must obtain 3 college credits or 45 hours training in teaching language learners when they renew. I’m going to wind up paying about $500 just to meet that one requirement with training I have to pay for on my own time and dime. Most new teachers come into the profession with a MA in education, but yet get average pay below what most college grads get. A teacher with a master’s and 10 years of experience will make about 50k in my city. Less education or less experience will be less. It’s nearly impossible to support a family on 50k here. 
    Teachers get treated less and less like a profession and more like baby sitters or community service. But that’s on recent culture, not the teachers. 
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 17,783
    schools for fools
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 27,265
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    I'm no longer teaching but in the past have put in a total of about 9 years teaching in various capacities including grade schools and community college. 

    My thinking is that "adversity scoring" is an OK idea in terms of intentions, but not in terms of finding a good, viable, long-term solution.  I think in a way it's putting the cart before the horse.  I would propose this problem be tackled in two stages:

    1.  Make SAT test fair for all cultural groups and socio-economic levels through careful wording of test questions.  A misunderstood question due to wording does not necessarily reflect intelligence or lack thereof.  So in other words, reduce the question biases as much as possible.

    2.  Secondly, I think we would do well to work toward eliminating as much as possible conditions that create adversity in the first place.  Many will argue that this is unrealistic.  "There always have been and always will be the poor", they will say.  Yes, true, but what are we doing to reduce the discrepancies in socio-economic levels?  Doing what we can to reduce discrimination, prejudice and bigotry is the most important first step.  Recognizing and facing our own biases is the first part of that process.  What I'm proposing is a long, uphill task, but I think it's one worth striving for.

    And I would add two other things:

    1.  Demand that teaching be treated as, and carried out as a profession, not a baby sitting job.  Teachers need to be trained at a higher level in America than they are and then compensated at an appropriate professional level.  Believe me, I've seen some very incompetent people working in this field. 

    2.  Likewise, if not demand then at least strongly encourage students to excel both in scholastic learning as well as in social skills and creativity.  Eliminate the bullshit "everyone is a winner" nonsense (we've discussed this in HFD's excellent thread on "inclusion").  Get real.  In the larger sense, we in America have failed at our job of educating our youth and, as a result, our youth are failing as well.  The "dumbing down" of America is a real and tragic condition.
    In response to your second #1.
    its the culture and parents that treat teaching as a babysitting job. An example would be this time last year we had teacher walkouts in a state that’s ranked among the worst in teacher pay. The letters to the editor in the local paper were laughable. Parents complained mostly about having to find childcare and couldn’t care less about the outdated buildings and teacher pay they were fighting for. Parents expect teachers to parent their kids more than teach.
    in terms of training, there’s a ton of training. Every few years the state requires more professional development, more certificates, more everything (that it almost always paid for out of pocket by the teacher). For example Colorado just passed a law (I don’t know if it’s law, a bill, or whatever) that teachers must obtain 3 college credits or 45 hours training in teaching language learners when they renew. I’m going to wind up paying about $500 just to meet that one requirement with training I have to pay for on my own time and dime. Most new teachers come into the profession with a MA in education, but yet get average pay below what most college grads get. A teacher with a master’s and 10 years of experience will make about 50k in my city. Less education or less experience will be less. It’s nearly impossible to support a family on 50k here. 
    Teachers get treated less and less like a profession and more like baby sitters or community service. But that’s on recent culture, not the teachers. 
    Wow- looks like continuing education requirements for teachers has gone up since I was teaching.  I have no doubt that extra financial burden is a drag for you folks.   That should come as part of you contract, not out of your pocket.

    Yeah, I'm really bummed to hear how poorly teachers are paid and viewed today.  That's a shameful aspect of our culture. 
    "The answer is never the answer.  What's really interesting is the mystery.  If you seek the mystery instead of the answer, you'll always be seeking."
    -Ken Kesey
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 18,575
    brianlux said:
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    I'm no longer teaching but in the past have put in a total of about 9 years teaching in various capacities including grade schools and community college. 

    My thinking is that "adversity scoring" is an OK idea in terms of intentions, but not in terms of finding a good, viable, long-term solution.  I think in a way it's putting the cart before the horse.  I would propose this problem be tackled in two stages:

    1.  Make SAT test fair for all cultural groups and socio-economic levels through careful wording of test questions.  A misunderstood question due to wording does not necessarily reflect intelligence or lack thereof.  So in other words, reduce the question biases as much as possible.

    2.  Secondly, I think we would do well to work toward eliminating as much as possible conditions that create adversity in the first place.  Many will argue that this is unrealistic.  "There always have been and always will be the poor", they will say.  Yes, true, but what are we doing to reduce the discrepancies in socio-economic levels?  Doing what we can to reduce discrimination, prejudice and bigotry is the most important first step.  Recognizing and facing our own biases is the first part of that process.  What I'm proposing is a long, uphill task, but I think it's one worth striving for.

    And I would add two other things:

    1.  Demand that teaching be treated as, and carried out as a profession, not a baby sitting job.  Teachers need to be trained at a higher level in America than they are and then compensated at an appropriate professional level.  Believe me, I've seen some very incompetent people working in this field. 

    2.  Likewise, if not demand then at least strongly encourage students to excel both in scholastic learning as well as in social skills and creativity.  Eliminate the bullshit "everyone is a winner" nonsense (we've discussed this in HFD's excellent thread on "inclusion").  Get real.  In the larger sense, we in America have failed at our job of educating our youth and, as a result, our youth are failing as well.  The "dumbing down" of America is a real and tragic condition.
    In response to your second #1.
    its the culture and parents that treat teaching as a babysitting job. An example would be this time last year we had teacher walkouts in a state that’s ranked among the worst in teacher pay. The letters to the editor in the local paper were laughable. Parents complained mostly about having to find childcare and couldn’t care less about the outdated buildings and teacher pay they were fighting for. Parents expect teachers to parent their kids more than teach.
    in terms of training, there’s a ton of training. Every few years the state requires more professional development, more certificates, more everything (that it almost always paid for out of pocket by the teacher). For example Colorado just passed a law (I don’t know if it’s law, a bill, or whatever) that teachers must obtain 3 college credits or 45 hours training in teaching language learners when they renew. I’m going to wind up paying about $500 just to meet that one requirement with training I have to pay for on my own time and dime. Most new teachers come into the profession with a MA in education, but yet get average pay below what most college grads get. A teacher with a master’s and 10 years of experience will make about 50k in my city. Less education or less experience will be less. It’s nearly impossible to support a family on 50k here. 
    Teachers get treated less and less like a profession and more like baby sitters or community service. But that’s on recent culture, not the teachers. 
    Wow- looks like continuing education requirements for teachers has gone up since I was teaching.  I have no doubt that extra financial burden is a drag for you folks.   That should come as part of you contract, not out of your pocket.

    Yeah, I'm really bummed to hear how poorly teachers are paid and viewed today.  That's a shameful aspect of our culture. 
    Here in NY the teachers won't get hired if they don't have ESL and or Special Education training.  

    When we were in school certain kids would be brought out of class for 1 on 1 training for things, for the most part that doesn't happen anymore.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 27,265
    brianlux said:
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    I'm no longer teaching but in the past have put in a total of about 9 years teaching in various capacities including grade schools and community college. 

    My thinking is that "adversity scoring" is an OK idea in terms of intentions, but not in terms of finding a good, viable, long-term solution.  I think in a way it's putting the cart before the horse.  I would propose this problem be tackled in two stages:

    1.  Make SAT test fair for all cultural groups and socio-economic levels through careful wording of test questions.  A misunderstood question due to wording does not necessarily reflect intelligence or lack thereof.  So in other words, reduce the question biases as much as possible.

    2.  Secondly, I think we would do well to work toward eliminating as much as possible conditions that create adversity in the first place.  Many will argue that this is unrealistic.  "There always have been and always will be the poor", they will say.  Yes, true, but what are we doing to reduce the discrepancies in socio-economic levels?  Doing what we can to reduce discrimination, prejudice and bigotry is the most important first step.  Recognizing and facing our own biases is the first part of that process.  What I'm proposing is a long, uphill task, but I think it's one worth striving for.

    And I would add two other things:

    1.  Demand that teaching be treated as, and carried out as a profession, not a baby sitting job.  Teachers need to be trained at a higher level in America than they are and then compensated at an appropriate professional level.  Believe me, I've seen some very incompetent people working in this field. 

    2.  Likewise, if not demand then at least strongly encourage students to excel both in scholastic learning as well as in social skills and creativity.  Eliminate the bullshit "everyone is a winner" nonsense (we've discussed this in HFD's excellent thread on "inclusion").  Get real.  In the larger sense, we in America have failed at our job of educating our youth and, as a result, our youth are failing as well.  The "dumbing down" of America is a real and tragic condition.
    In response to your second #1.
    its the culture and parents that treat teaching as a babysitting job. An example would be this time last year we had teacher walkouts in a state that’s ranked among the worst in teacher pay. The letters to the editor in the local paper were laughable. Parents complained mostly about having to find childcare and couldn’t care less about the outdated buildings and teacher pay they were fighting for. Parents expect teachers to parent their kids more than teach.
    in terms of training, there’s a ton of training. Every few years the state requires more professional development, more certificates, more everything (that it almost always paid for out of pocket by the teacher). For example Colorado just passed a law (I don’t know if it’s law, a bill, or whatever) that teachers must obtain 3 college credits or 45 hours training in teaching language learners when they renew. I’m going to wind up paying about $500 just to meet that one requirement with training I have to pay for on my own time and dime. Most new teachers come into the profession with a MA in education, but yet get average pay below what most college grads get. A teacher with a master’s and 10 years of experience will make about 50k in my city. Less education or less experience will be less. It’s nearly impossible to support a family on 50k here. 
    Teachers get treated less and less like a profession and more like baby sitters or community service. But that’s on recent culture, not the teachers. 
    Wow- looks like continuing education requirements for teachers has gone up since I was teaching.  I have no doubt that extra financial burden is a drag for you folks.   That should come as part of you contract, not out of your pocket.

    Yeah, I'm really bummed to hear how poorly teachers are paid and viewed today.  That's a shameful aspect of our culture. 
    Here in NY the teachers won't get hired if they don't have ESL and or Special Education training.  

    When we were in school certain kids would be brought out of class for 1 on 1 training for things, for the most part that doesn't happen anymore.
    A few of my years in teaching were spent subbing and occasionally I subbed for special needs teachers.  That meant just having a few or at the most a handful of kids each hour.  That was cool!  (I also subbed one 5th grade class fairly regularly and a couple of times we got on the school bus and went to the ice-skating rink for half the day.  That was REALLY cool!)
    "The answer is never the answer.  What's really interesting is the mystery.  If you seek the mystery instead of the answer, you'll always be seeking."
    -Ken Kesey
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • mattsl1983mattsl1983 Posts: 619
    Why be surprised by this?  I bet you’ll be shocked in 10 years when you are paying an extra 10 percent in taxes for the reparation fund.  This is what happens when institutions are caught between extreme left and extreme ideologies.  I miss the days of moderate and common sense. 
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 18,575
    Why be surprised by this?  I bet you’ll be shocked in 10 years when you are paying an extra 10 percent in taxes for the reparation fund.  This is what happens when institutions are caught between extreme left and extreme ideologies.  I miss the days of moderate and common sense. 
    I just heard Dr Oz say that our school system is still based off of 1800's style of life.

    Pretty interesting if that's true.

    So maybe Devos is on to something?
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,993
    Why be surprised by this?  I bet you’ll be shocked in 10 years when you are paying an extra 10 percent in taxes for the reparation fund.  This is what happens when institutions are caught between extreme left and extreme ideologies.  I miss the days of moderate and common sense. 
    I just heard Dr Oz say that our school system is still based off of 1800's style of life.

    Pretty interesting if that's true.

    So maybe Devos is on to something?
    Referring to what aspects of life, though? That’s a pretty unspecific comment. There were actually many important educational reforms in the 19th century in the US, including the formation of public schools funded by a tax base rather than private schools, and public education of girls and young women.  
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 18,575
    Why be surprised by this?  I bet you’ll be shocked in 10 years when you are paying an extra 10 percent in taxes for the reparation fund.  This is what happens when institutions are caught between extreme left and extreme ideologies.  I miss the days of moderate and common sense. 
    I just heard Dr Oz say that our school system is still based off of 1800's style of life.

    Pretty interesting if that's true.

    So maybe Devos is on to something?
    Referring to what aspects of life, though? That’s a pretty unspecific comment. There were actually many important educational reforms in the 19th century in the US, including the formation of public schools funded by a tax base rather than private schools, and public education of girls and young women.  
    He was referring to how archaic our system of learning still is and how it was formed around farming, hence the summer break for one .

    He also focused on how kids don't have any "mental" training.  I feel that is true too.
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,993
    Why be surprised by this?  I bet you’ll be shocked in 10 years when you are paying an extra 10 percent in taxes for the reparation fund.  This is what happens when institutions are caught between extreme left and extreme ideologies.  I miss the days of moderate and common sense. 
    I just heard Dr Oz say that our school system is still based off of 1800's style of life.

    Pretty interesting if that's true.

    So maybe Devos is on to something?
    Referring to what aspects of life, though? That’s a pretty unspecific comment. There were actually many important educational reforms in the 19th century in the US, including the formation of public schools funded by a tax base rather than private schools, and public education of girls and young women.  
    He was referring to how archaic our system of learning still is and how it was formed around farming, hence the summer break for one .

    He also focused on how kids don't have any "mental" training.  I feel that is true too.
    Formed around the farming calendar, maybe, but it’s changed since then, and when school districts have tried to reform the school year to remove the summer break it hasn’t been popular with parents. 

    Who knows what “mental training” even is? 

    Oz is mostly a quack. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 18,575
    Why be surprised by this?  I bet you’ll be shocked in 10 years when you are paying an extra 10 percent in taxes for the reparation fund.  This is what happens when institutions are caught between extreme left and extreme ideologies.  I miss the days of moderate and common sense. 
    I just heard Dr Oz say that our school system is still based off of 1800's style of life.

    Pretty interesting if that's true.

    So maybe Devos is on to something?
    Referring to what aspects of life, though? That’s a pretty unspecific comment. There were actually many important educational reforms in the 19th century in the US, including the formation of public schools funded by a tax base rather than private schools, and public education of girls and young women.  
    He was referring to how archaic our system of learning still is and how it was formed around farming, hence the summer break for one .

    He also focused on how kids don't have any "mental" training.  I feel that is true too.
    Formed around the farming calendar, maybe, but it’s changed since then, and when school districts have tried to reform the school year to remove the summer break it hasn’t been popular with parents. 

    Who knows what “mental training” even is? 

    Oz is mostly a quack. 
    I liked the summer breaks too.  The other countries that excel in school past us?  They don't.

    Well being that mental health is a forefront for issues on everything to gun control, Michael Phelps and a myriad of others speaking about it and getting help I'm sure there is "mental training", or maybe I'm not saying it right or you just want to argue, I'm not sure?

  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,993
    edited May 22
    Why be surprised by this?  I bet you’ll be shocked in 10 years when you are paying an extra 10 percent in taxes for the reparation fund.  This is what happens when institutions are caught between extreme left and extreme ideologies.  I miss the days of moderate and common sense. 
    I just heard Dr Oz say that our school system is still based off of 1800's style of life.

    Pretty interesting if that's true.

    So maybe Devos is on to something?
    Referring to what aspects of life, though? That’s a pretty unspecific comment. There were actually many important educational reforms in the 19th century in the US, including the formation of public schools funded by a tax base rather than private schools, and public education of girls and young women.  
    He was referring to how archaic our system of learning still is and how it was formed around farming, hence the summer break for one .

    He also focused on how kids don't have any "mental" training.  I feel that is true too.
    Formed around the farming calendar, maybe, but it’s changed since then, and when school districts have tried to reform the school year to remove the summer break it hasn’t been popular with parents. 

    Who knows what “mental training” even is? 

    Oz is mostly a quack. 
    I liked the summer breaks too.  The other countries that excel in school past us?  They don't.

    Well being that mental health is a forefront for issues on everything to gun control, Michael Phelps and a myriad of others speaking about it and getting help I'm sure there is "mental training", or maybe I'm not saying it right or you just want to argue, I'm not sure?

    I’m trying to understand what you’re saying. The phrase “mental training” is far too vague. Does it have something to do with mental health, as you suggest? Does it have something to do with more advanced cognitive techniques? I have no idea, so it’s not possible to really discuss it. 

    Dividing up the instructional hours more evenly over the school
    year would likely help students to not forget as much over the long break, but it’s a myth that the higher performing counties have more instructional hours overall in school. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 18,575
    Why be surprised by this?  I bet you’ll be shocked in 10 years when you are paying an extra 10 percent in taxes for the reparation fund.  This is what happens when institutions are caught between extreme left and extreme ideologies.  I miss the days of moderate and common sense. 
    I just heard Dr Oz say that our school system is still based off of 1800's style of life.

    Pretty interesting if that's true.

    So maybe Devos is on to something?
    Referring to what aspects of life, though? That’s a pretty unspecific comment. There were actually many important educational reforms in the 19th century in the US, including the formation of public schools funded by a tax base rather than private schools, and public education of girls and young women.  
    He was referring to how archaic our system of learning still is and how it was formed around farming, hence the summer break for one .

    He also focused on how kids don't have any "mental" training.  I feel that is true too.
    Formed around the farming calendar, maybe, but it’s changed since then, and when school districts have tried to reform the school year to remove the summer break it hasn’t been popular with parents. 

    Who knows what “mental training” even is? 

    Oz is mostly a quack. 
    I liked the summer breaks too.  The other countries that excel in school past us?  They don't.

    Well being that mental health is a forefront for issues on everything to gun control, Michael Phelps and a myriad of others speaking about it and getting help I'm sure there is "mental training", or maybe I'm not saying it right or you just want to argue, I'm not sure?

    I’m trying to understand what you’re saying. The phrase “mental training” is far too vague. Does it have something to do with mental health, as you suggest? Does it have something to do with more advanced cognitive techniques? I have no idea, so it’s not possible to really discuss it. 

    Dividing up the instructional hours more evenly over the school
    year would likely help students to not forget as much over the long break, but it’s a myth that the higher performing counties have more instructional hours overall in school. 
    Ahhh yes, first one is about "mental health".

    2nd, not talking about how many hours they do but in that they don't have a summer break and perform better.

    I just tried looking up country rankings for schools and a few listed USA as the best  schooling in the world.  How is that possible?

    Also never saw Barbados listed on any of the lists.  When I was living there it boasted a 98% literacy rate.  That was very impressive.
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,993
    Why be surprised by this?  I bet you’ll be shocked in 10 years when you are paying an extra 10 percent in taxes for the reparation fund.  This is what happens when institutions are caught between extreme left and extreme ideologies.  I miss the days of moderate and common sense. 
    I just heard Dr Oz say that our school system is still based off of 1800's style of life.

    Pretty interesting if that's true.

    So maybe Devos is on to something?
    Referring to what aspects of life, though? That’s a pretty unspecific comment. There were actually many important educational reforms in the 19th century in the US, including the formation of public schools funded by a tax base rather than private schools, and public education of girls and young women.  
    He was referring to how archaic our system of learning still is and how it was formed around farming, hence the summer break for one .

    He also focused on how kids don't have any "mental" training.  I feel that is true too.
    Formed around the farming calendar, maybe, but it’s changed since then, and when school districts have tried to reform the school year to remove the summer break it hasn’t been popular with parents. 

    Who knows what “mental training” even is? 

    Oz is mostly a quack. 
    I liked the summer breaks too.  The other countries that excel in school past us?  They don't.

    Well being that mental health is a forefront for issues on everything to gun control, Michael Phelps and a myriad of others speaking about it and getting help I'm sure there is "mental training", or maybe I'm not saying it right or you just want to argue, I'm not sure?

    I’m trying to understand what you’re saying. The phrase “mental training” is far too vague. Does it have something to do with mental health, as you suggest? Does it have something to do with more advanced cognitive techniques? I have no idea, so it’s not possible to really discuss it. 

    Dividing up the instructional hours more evenly over the school
    year would likely help students to not forget as much over the long break, but it’s a myth that the higher performing counties have more instructional hours overall in school. 
    Ahhh yes, first one is about "mental health".

    2nd, not talking about how many hours they do but in that they don't have a summer break and perform better.

    I just tried looking up country rankings for schools and a few listed USA as the best  schooling in the world.  How is that possible?

    Also never saw Barbados listed on any of the lists.  When I was living there it boasted a 98% literacy rate.  That was very impressive.

    Which sites listed the US as the best schooling in the world, which parameters were they using, and which educational level were they looking at? The US has some good universities, certainly, but I never see it scoring highly in measurements of literacy, math or science competency. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,993
    Finnish summer vacation lasts 2.5-3 months, and they beat almost everyone in reading, math and science. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 18,966
    edited May 22
    Finnish summer vacation lasts 2.5-3 months, and they beat almost everyone in reading, math and science. 
    Their curriculum is way different than ours. I would say theirs is a lot more shallow in terms of less things to teach so they can go deeper into each concept and spend more time on each one while we have to go over a heck of a lot more.  (At least that is what we have learned in workshops.)
     summer vacation is essential, kids need that break as well as teachers. However I would be willing to try an alternate schedule like teach two months then two weeks off (or whatever it may be).  I know a big hang up is cost since every school doesn’t have air conditioning. 
    Post edited by mcgruff10 on
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,993
    mcgruff10 said:
    Finnish summer vacation lasts 2.5-3 months, and they beat almost everyone in reading, math and science. 
    Their curriculum is way different than ours. I would say theirs is a lot more shallow in terms of less things to teach so they can go deeper into each concept and spend more time on each one while we have to go over a heck of a lot more.  (At least that is what we have learned in workshops.)
     summer vacation is essential, kids need that break as well as teachers. However I would be willing to try an alternate schedule like teach two months then two weeks off (or whatever it may be).  I know a big hang up is cost since every school doesn’t have air conditioning. 

    Here's Finland ranking second in the world in math and reading, and first in the world in sciences, so I wonder if your description of their curriculum is accurate. Or maybe the US is spending a lot of time on unnecessary minutia. Whatever the difference is, it seems to be working. 

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 18,966
    mcgruff10 said:
    Finnish summer vacation lasts 2.5-3 months, and they beat almost everyone in reading, math and science. 
    Their curriculum is way different than ours. I would say theirs is a lot more shallow in terms of less things to teach so they can go deeper into each concept and spend more time on each one while we have to go over a heck of a lot more.  (At least that is what we have learned in workshops.)
     summer vacation is essential, kids need that break as well as teachers. However I would be willing to try an alternate schedule like teach two months then two weeks off (or whatever it may be).  I know a big hang up is cost since every school doesn’t have air conditioning. 

    Here's Finland ranking second in the world in math and reading, and first in the world in sciences, so I wonder if your description of their curriculum is accurate. Or maybe the US is spending a lot of time on unnecessary minutia. Whatever the difference is, it seems to be working. 

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading
    I'm thinking a lot has changed since 2010.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,993
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Finnish summer vacation lasts 2.5-3 months, and they beat almost everyone in reading, math and science. 
    Their curriculum is way different than ours. I would say theirs is a lot more shallow in terms of less things to teach so they can go deeper into each concept and spend more time on each one while we have to go over a heck of a lot more.  (At least that is what we have learned in workshops.)
     summer vacation is essential, kids need that break as well as teachers. However I would be willing to try an alternate schedule like teach two months then two weeks off (or whatever it may be).  I know a big hang up is cost since every school doesn’t have air conditioning. 

    Here's Finland ranking second in the world in math and reading, and first in the world in sciences, so I wonder if your description of their curriculum is accurate. Or maybe the US is spending a lot of time on unnecessary minutia. Whatever the difference is, it seems to be working. 

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading
    I'm thinking a lot has changed since 2010.  

    Here's the 2015/2016 data, which appears to be the most recent. Finland still ranks right up there at 8, though Canada beats them now at 6 (woo hoo). USA at 31. 

    http://factsmaps.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-average-score-of-math-science-reading/
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 18,966
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Finnish summer vacation lasts 2.5-3 months, and they beat almost everyone in reading, math and science. 
    Their curriculum is way different than ours. I would say theirs is a lot more shallow in terms of less things to teach so they can go deeper into each concept and spend more time on each one while we have to go over a heck of a lot more.  (At least that is what we have learned in workshops.)
     summer vacation is essential, kids need that break as well as teachers. However I would be willing to try an alternate schedule like teach two months then two weeks off (or whatever it may be).  I know a big hang up is cost since every school doesn’t have air conditioning. 

    Here's Finland ranking second in the world in math and reading, and first in the world in sciences, so I wonder if your description of their curriculum is accurate. Or maybe the US is spending a lot of time on unnecessary minutia. Whatever the difference is, it seems to be working. 

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading
    I'm thinking a lot has changed since 2010.  

    Here's the 2015/2016 data, which appears to be the most recent. Finland still ranks right up there at 8, though Canada beats them now at 6 (woo hoo). USA at 31. 

    http://factsmaps.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-average-score-of-math-science-reading/
    Interesting how much the us has fallen, I wonder why. 

    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 18,575
    Why be surprised by this?  I bet you’ll be shocked in 10 years when you are paying an extra 10 percent in taxes for the reparation fund.  This is what happens when institutions are caught between extreme left and extreme ideologies.  I miss the days of moderate and common sense. 
    I just heard Dr Oz say that our school system is still based off of 1800's style of life.

    Pretty interesting if that's true.

    So maybe Devos is on to something?
    Referring to what aspects of life, though? That’s a pretty unspecific comment. There were actually many important educational reforms in the 19th century in the US, including the formation of public schools funded by a tax base rather than private schools, and public education of girls and young women.  
    He was referring to how archaic our system of learning still is and how it was formed around farming, hence the summer break for one .

    He also focused on how kids don't have any "mental" training.  I feel that is true too.
    Formed around the farming calendar, maybe, but it’s changed since then, and when school districts have tried to reform the school year to remove the summer break it hasn’t been popular with parents. 

    Who knows what “mental training” even is? 

    Oz is mostly a quack. 
    I liked the summer breaks too.  The other countries that excel in school past us?  They don't.

    Well being that mental health is a forefront for issues on everything to gun control, Michael Phelps and a myriad of others speaking about it and getting help I'm sure there is "mental training", or maybe I'm not saying it right or you just want to argue, I'm not sure?

    I’m trying to understand what you’re saying. The phrase “mental training” is far too vague. Does it have something to do with mental health, as you suggest? Does it have something to do with more advanced cognitive techniques? I have no idea, so it’s not possible to really discuss it. 

    Dividing up the instructional hours more evenly over the school
    year would likely help students to not forget as much over the long break, but it’s a myth that the higher performing counties have more instructional hours overall in school. 
    Ahhh yes, first one is about "mental health".

    2nd, not talking about how many hours they do but in that they don't have a summer break and perform better.

    I just tried looking up country rankings for schools and a few listed USA as the best  schooling in the world.  How is that possible?

    Also never saw Barbados listed on any of the lists.  When I was living there it boasted a 98% literacy rate.  That was very impressive.

    Which sites listed the US as the best schooling in the world, which parameters were they using, and which educational level were they looking at? The US has some good universities, certainly, but I never see it scoring highly in measurements of literacy, math or science competency. 
    I seriously don't know what to believe anymore...
    Here is 1 https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/best-education ranks it 2nd in a chart below the article.

    This one ranks the US pretty poorly http://factsmaps.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-average-score-of-math-science-reading/

    This one ranks us higher at 6th https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/07/the-10-most-educated-countries-in-the-world.html

    I guess it all depends on what criteria you base the scoring on which is funny considering my whole purpose of this thread was to discuss the introduction of different scoring criteria...


  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 18,575
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Finnish summer vacation lasts 2.5-3 months, and they beat almost everyone in reading, math and science. 
    Their curriculum is way different than ours. I would say theirs is a lot more shallow in terms of less things to teach so they can go deeper into each concept and spend more time on each one while we have to go over a heck of a lot more.  (At least that is what we have learned in workshops.)
     summer vacation is essential, kids need that break as well as teachers. However I would be willing to try an alternate schedule like teach two months then two weeks off (or whatever it may be).  I know a big hang up is cost since every school doesn’t have air conditioning. 

    Here's Finland ranking second in the world in math and reading, and first in the world in sciences, so I wonder if your description of their curriculum is accurate. Or maybe the US is spending a lot of time on unnecessary minutia. Whatever the difference is, it seems to be working. 

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading
    I'm thinking a lot has changed since 2010.  

    Here's the 2015/2016 data, which appears to be the most recent. Finland still ranks right up there at 8, though Canada beats them now at 6 (woo hoo). USA at 31. 

    http://factsmaps.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-average-score-of-math-science-reading/
    Interesting how much the us has fallen, I wonder why. 

    Did it start w the "No child left behind" era?
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,993
    Why be surprised by this?  I bet you’ll be shocked in 10 years when you are paying an extra 10 percent in taxes for the reparation fund.  This is what happens when institutions are caught between extreme left and extreme ideologies.  I miss the days of moderate and common sense. 
    I just heard Dr Oz say that our school system is still based off of 1800's style of life.

    Pretty interesting if that's true.

    So maybe Devos is on to something?
    Referring to what aspects of life, though? That’s a pretty unspecific comment. There were actually many important educational reforms in the 19th century in the US, including the formation of public schools funded by a tax base rather than private schools, and public education of girls and young women.  
    He was referring to how archaic our system of learning still is and how it was formed around farming, hence the summer break for one .

    He also focused on how kids don't have any "mental" training.  I feel that is true too.
    Formed around the farming calendar, maybe, but it’s changed since then, and when school districts have tried to reform the school year to remove the summer break it hasn’t been popular with parents. 

    Who knows what “mental training” even is? 

    Oz is mostly a quack. 
    I liked the summer breaks too.  The other countries that excel in school past us?  They don't.

    Well being that mental health is a forefront for issues on everything to gun control, Michael Phelps and a myriad of others speaking about it and getting help I'm sure there is "mental training", or maybe I'm not saying it right or you just want to argue, I'm not sure?

    I’m trying to understand what you’re saying. The phrase “mental training” is far too vague. Does it have something to do with mental health, as you suggest? Does it have something to do with more advanced cognitive techniques? I have no idea, so it’s not possible to really discuss it. 

    Dividing up the instructional hours more evenly over the school
    year would likely help students to not forget as much over the long break, but it’s a myth that the higher performing counties have more instructional hours overall in school. 
    Ahhh yes, first one is about "mental health".

    2nd, not talking about how many hours they do but in that they don't have a summer break and perform better.

    I just tried looking up country rankings for schools and a few listed USA as the best  schooling in the world.  How is that possible?

    Also never saw Barbados listed on any of the lists.  When I was living there it boasted a 98% literacy rate.  That was very impressive.

    Which sites listed the US as the best schooling in the world, which parameters were they using, and which educational level were they looking at? The US has some good universities, certainly, but I never see it scoring highly in measurements of literacy, math or science competency. 
    I seriously don't know what to believe anymore...
    Here is 1 https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/best-education ranks it 2nd in a chart below the article.

    This one ranks the US pretty poorly http://factsmaps.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-average-score-of-math-science-reading/

    This one ranks us higher at 6th https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/07/the-10-most-educated-countries-in-the-world.html

    I guess it all depends on what criteria you base the scoring on which is funny considering my whole purpose of this thread was to discuss the introduction of different scoring criteria...


    One of the answers is in the description of that first article, the one that ranks the US as second - it’s a “perception based study” - ie it’s based on opinion, not fact, and one is the opinion factors is whether someone would want to go to school in the US. So basically the “data” is irrelevant. You could ask a ton of people where they would like to go to school, but that has nothing to do with the quality of that education.  
     
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 18,966
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Finnish summer vacation lasts 2.5-3 months, and they beat almost everyone in reading, math and science. 
    Their curriculum is way different than ours. I would say theirs is a lot more shallow in terms of less things to teach so they can go deeper into each concept and spend more time on each one while we have to go over a heck of a lot more.  (At least that is what we have learned in workshops.)
     summer vacation is essential, kids need that break as well as teachers. However I would be willing to try an alternate schedule like teach two months then two weeks off (or whatever it may be).  I know a big hang up is cost since every school doesn’t have air conditioning. 

    Here's Finland ranking second in the world in math and reading, and first in the world in sciences, so I wonder if your description of their curriculum is accurate. Or maybe the US is spending a lot of time on unnecessary minutia. Whatever the difference is, it seems to be working. 

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading
    I'm thinking a lot has changed since 2010.  

    Here's the 2015/2016 data, which appears to be the most recent. Finland still ranks right up there at 8, though Canada beats them now at 6 (woo hoo). USA at 31. 

    http://factsmaps.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-average-score-of-math-science-reading/
    Interesting how much the us has fallen, I wonder why. 

    Did it start w the "No child left behind" era?
    Correct. 
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,993
    Also, the last article looks at percentage of college/university educated adults, which is a whole different issue. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 18,575
    Why be surprised by this?  I bet you’ll be shocked in 10 years when you are paying an extra 10 percent in taxes for the reparation fund.  This is what happens when institutions are caught between extreme left and extreme ideologies.  I miss the days of moderate and common sense. 
    I just heard Dr Oz say that our school system is still based off of 1800's style of life.

    Pretty interesting if that's true.

    So maybe Devos is on to something?
    Referring to what aspects of life, though? That’s a pretty unspecific comment. There were actually many important educational reforms in the 19th century in the US, including the formation of public schools funded by a tax base rather than private schools, and public education of girls and young women.  
    He was referring to how archaic our system of learning still is and how it was formed around farming, hence the summer break for one .

    He also focused on how kids don't have any "mental" training.  I feel that is true too.
    Formed around the farming calendar, maybe, but it’s changed since then, and when school districts have tried to reform the school year to remove the summer break it hasn’t been popular with parents. 

    Who knows what “mental training” even is? 

    Oz is mostly a quack. 
    I liked the summer breaks too.  The other countries that excel in school past us?  They don't.

    Well being that mental health is a forefront for issues on everything to gun control, Michael Phelps and a myriad of others speaking about it and getting help I'm sure there is "mental training", or maybe I'm not saying it right or you just want to argue, I'm not sure?

    I’m trying to understand what you’re saying. The phrase “mental training” is far too vague. Does it have something to do with mental health, as you suggest? Does it have something to do with more advanced cognitive techniques? I have no idea, so it’s not possible to really discuss it. 

    Dividing up the instructional hours more evenly over the school
    year would likely help students to not forget as much over the long break, but it’s a myth that the higher performing counties have more instructional hours overall in school. 
    Ahhh yes, first one is about "mental health".

    2nd, not talking about how many hours they do but in that they don't have a summer break and perform better.

    I just tried looking up country rankings for schools and a few listed USA as the best  schooling in the world.  How is that possible?

    Also never saw Barbados listed on any of the lists.  When I was living there it boasted a 98% literacy rate.  That was very impressive.

    Which sites listed the US as the best schooling in the world, which parameters were they using, and which educational level were they looking at? The US has some good universities, certainly, but I never see it scoring highly in measurements of literacy, math or science competency. 
    I seriously don't know what to believe anymore...
    Here is 1 https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/best-education ranks it 2nd in a chart below the article.

    This one ranks the US pretty poorly http://factsmaps.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-average-score-of-math-science-reading/

    This one ranks us higher at 6th https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/07/the-10-most-educated-countries-in-the-world.html

    I guess it all depends on what criteria you base the scoring on which is funny considering my whole purpose of this thread was to discuss the introduction of different scoring criteria...


    One of the answers is in the description of that first article, the one that ranks the US as second - it’s a “perception based study” - ie it’s based on opinion, not fact, and one is the opinion factors is whether someone would want to go to school in the US. So basically the “data” is irrelevant. You could ask a ton of people where they would like to go to school, but that has nothing to do with the quality of that education.  
     
    Agreed.  I didn't skim through the whole article and was fascinated to find the US so highly ranked.

    There was another article I glanced at that was just opinion too but I didn't include that one.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 18,575
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Finnish summer vacation lasts 2.5-3 months, and they beat almost everyone in reading, math and science. 
    Their curriculum is way different than ours. I would say theirs is a lot more shallow in terms of less things to teach so they can go deeper into each concept and spend more time on each one while we have to go over a heck of a lot more.  (At least that is what we have learned in workshops.)
     summer vacation is essential, kids need that break as well as teachers. However I would be willing to try an alternate schedule like teach two months then two weeks off (or whatever it may be).  I know a big hang up is cost since every school doesn’t have air conditioning. 

    Here's Finland ranking second in the world in math and reading, and first in the world in sciences, so I wonder if your description of their curriculum is accurate. Or maybe the US is spending a lot of time on unnecessary minutia. Whatever the difference is, it seems to be working. 

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading
    I'm thinking a lot has changed since 2010.  

    Here's the 2015/2016 data, which appears to be the most recent. Finland still ranks right up there at 8, though Canada beats them now at 6 (woo hoo). USA at 31. 

    http://factsmaps.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-average-score-of-math-science-reading/
    Interesting how much the us has fallen, I wonder why. 

    Did it start w the "No child left behind" era?
    Correct. 
    I'm not in education but have enough friends that are and read enough to form the conclusion that I agree 100%.


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