New SAT tests have "Adversity Scoring". Is this doing kids a disservice?

This should be a huge topic of debate.

The SAT's will now have something called an "adversity score" for kids with less than ideal ways of life.

So basically it's an Affirmative Action score for under privileged children?

Thoughts?

Teachers please way in.
http://time.com/5590396/sat-adversity-score/
«13

Comments

  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 18,575
    I'll weigh in later.  Curious to hear from some teachers.
  • bbiggsbbiggs Posts: 3,310
    Part of the intent is to “level the playing field for low income students,” the article states.  Doesn’t financial aid take care of that?  
  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 6,485
    It's stupid. It is called the Scholastic Aptitude Test, later Scholastic Assessment Test. It should be just that. An assessment of what you know and have learned. While other factors, such as environmental, economic, etc... clearly have a role in education quality, they shouldn't play a part in scoring that the student actually knows. In fact, some universities today have chimed in and said they already take all of this into consideration and have all of that data via other means such as financial aid applications, the admission application, etc..., so this is an unnecessary distraction for the SAT. It doesn't belong as part of the test.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 3,502
    I used to think there wasn't really such a thing as a biased question or that income couldn't really impact your education. Then I became a teacher in South-Central LA. That definitely does exist, and probably a much larger issue than most think, especially in neighborhoods like South-Central. 
    But to your question, does an adversity score help anyone? I don't think so. These tests are intended to be used as a basis for college readiness. If you put the SAT on a "curve" based on your background, you are just setting that person up for failure in college. Ask any college professor and they'll tell you every year their incoming freshmen get worse and worse. Unfortunately it doesn't matter what your background is, if you aren't prepared for college you can be setting yourself up for failure. Some of these standardized tests can actually be used to as placement, you will take remedial classes before taking a real college course.
    If not in college, then when do we expect someone to hold their own? If we do it for college, then their first job in the real world is going to be that much tougher when they are suddenly forced to realize they have the same expectations as everyone else. I see it now, we have IEPs for far too many kids to help them through high school and it doesn't help prepare many them, its a crutch they learn to rely on. This may have the same effect. 
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 6,384
    Why is America still doing aptitude testing?
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 18,575
    Why is America still doing aptitude testing?
    Read the article and comment.

    I'm not interested in why because that isn't going away in my lifetime.
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 18,958
    Complete bs
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 18,575
    mcgruff10 said:
    Complete bs
    Elaborate please, my teaching friend!
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 6,384
    mcgruff10 said:
    Complete bs
    Agreed...
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 6,384
    Why is America still doing aptitude testing?
    Read the article and comment.

    I'm not interested in why because that isn't going away in my lifetime.
    Not with a defeatist attitude like that... ;)
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 18,575
    Why is America still doing aptitude testing?
    Read the article and comment.

    I'm not interested in why because that isn't going away in my lifetime.
    Not with a defeatist attitude like that... ;)
    First sentence please.
    Read the article and comment.
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 3,502
    The article mentioned I think 15 different factors, but only listed about 5 of them. Anyone know if race or ethnicity will be one of them?
  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 6,485
    edited May 17
    mace1229 said:
    The article mentioned I think 15 different factors, but only listed about 5 of them. Anyone know if race or ethnicity will be one of them?
    It took me a bit, but I tracked down the detailed data description of the Environmental Context Dashboard. It is on the College Board's site. Race is not a factor.
    https://professionals.collegeboard.org/environmental-context-dashboard/detailed-data-description

    Neighborhood measure comprised of income, family structure, housing, educational attainment, and likelihood of being a victim of a crimeHigh school measure comprised of income, family structure, housing, and educational attainment
    • Median family income
    • Percentage of all households in poverty (poverty rate)
    • Percentage of families with children in poverty
    • Percentage of households with food stamps
    • Percentage of families that are single-parent families with children and in poverty
    • Percentage of families that are single-parent families with children
    • Percentage of housing units that are rental
    • Percentage of housing units that are vacant
    • Rent as a percentage of income
    • Percentage of adults with less than a 4-year college degree
    • Percentage of adults with less than a high school diploma
    • Percentage of adults with agriculture jobs
    • Percentage of adults with nonprofessional jobs
    • Percentage unemployed
    • College-going behavior
    • Probability of being a victim of a crime
    • Median family income
    • Percentage of all households in poverty (poverty rate)
    • Percentage of families with children in poverty
    • Percentage of households with food stamps
    • Percentage of families that are single-parent families with children and in poverty
    • Percentage of families that are single-parent families with children
    • Percentage of housing units that are rental
    • Percentage of housing units that are vacant
    • Rent as a percentage of income
    • Percentage of adults with less than a 4-year college degree
    • Percentage of adults with less than a high school diploma
    • Percentage of adults with agriculture jobs
    • Percentage of adults with nonprofessional jobs
    • Percentage unemployed
    • College-going behavior
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 18,575
    jeffbr said:
    mace1229 said:
    The article mentioned I think 15 different factors, but only listed about 5 of them. Anyone know if race or ethnicity will be one of them?
    It took me a bit, but I tracked down the detailed data description of the Environmental Context Dashboard. It is on the College Board's site. Race is not a factor.
    https://professionals.collegeboard.org/environmental-context-dashboard/detailed-data-description

    Neighborhood measure comprised of income, family structure, housing, educational attainment, and likelihood of being a victim of a crimeHigh school measure comprised of income, family structure, housing, and educational attainment
    • Median family income
    • Percentage of all households in poverty (poverty rate)
    • Percentage of families with children in poverty
    • Percentage of households with food stamps
    • Percentage of families that are single-parent families with children and in poverty
    • Percentage of families that are single-parent families with children
    • Percentage of housing units that are rental
    • Percentage of housing units that are vacant
    • Rent as a percentage of income
    • Percentage of adults with less than a 4-year college degree
    • Percentage of adults with less than a high school diploma
    • Percentage of adults with agriculture jobs
    • Percentage of adults with nonprofessional jobs
    • Percentage unemployed
    • College-going behavior
    • Probability of being a victim of a crime
    • Median family income
    • Percentage of all households in poverty (poverty rate)
    • Percentage of families with children in poverty
    • Percentage of households with food stamps
    • Percentage of families that are single-parent families with children and in poverty
    • Percentage of families that are single-parent families with children
    • Percentage of housing units that are rental
    • Percentage of housing units that are vacant
    • Rent as a percentage of income
    • Percentage of adults with less than a 4-year college degree
    • Percentage of adults with less than a high school diploma
    • Percentage of adults with agriculture jobs
    • Percentage of adults with nonprofessional jobs
    • Percentage unemployed
    • College-going behavior
    Does it mention anywhere what boxes get ticked at what percentage?

    Meaning do "college going behavior" get more points than "median family income" and so on?
  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 2,422
    Score everything the same for everyone. This is absurd. 
    Pittsburgh 2013
    Cincinnati 2014
    Greenville 2016
    (Raleigh 2016)
    Columbia 2016
  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 6,485
    jeffbr said:
    mace1229 said:
    The article mentioned I think 15 different factors, but only listed about 5 of them. Anyone know if race or ethnicity will be one of them?
    It took me a bit, but I tracked down the detailed data description of the Environmental Context Dashboard. It is on the College Board's site. Race is not a factor.
    https://professionals.collegeboard.org/environmental-context-dashboard/detailed-data-description

    Neighborhood measure comprised of income, family structure, housing, educational attainment, and likelihood of being a victim of a crimeHigh school measure comprised of income, family structure, housing, and educational attainment
    • Median family income
    • Percentage of all households in poverty (poverty rate)
    • Percentage of families with children in poverty
    • Percentage of households with food stamps
    • Percentage of families that are single-parent families with children and in poverty
    • Percentage of families that are single-parent families with children
    • Percentage of housing units that are rental
    • Percentage of housing units that are vacant
    • Rent as a percentage of income
    • Percentage of adults with less than a 4-year college degree
    • Percentage of adults with less than a high school diploma
    • Percentage of adults with agriculture jobs
    • Percentage of adults with nonprofessional jobs
    • Percentage unemployed
    • College-going behavior
    • Probability of being a victim of a crime
    • Median family income
    • Percentage of all households in poverty (poverty rate)
    • Percentage of families with children in poverty
    • Percentage of households with food stamps
    • Percentage of families that are single-parent families with children and in poverty
    • Percentage of families that are single-parent families with children
    • Percentage of housing units that are rental
    • Percentage of housing units that are vacant
    • Rent as a percentage of income
    • Percentage of adults with less than a 4-year college degree
    • Percentage of adults with less than a high school diploma
    • Percentage of adults with agriculture jobs
    • Percentage of adults with nonprofessional jobs
    • Percentage unemployed
    • College-going behavior
    Does it mention anywhere what boxes get ticked at what percentage?

    Meaning do "college going behavior" get more points than "median family income" and so on?
    I couldn't find anything about how these are weighted. It said that the dashboard will provide a score of 1 to 100 with 1 being the least disadvantaged, and 100 being the most disadvantaged, and that the data was normalized state-wide and nationally, but didn't talk at all about whether any of these factors carried more significance or weight than others in coming up with the dashboard score. Without knowing the formula, it is hard to know if this is good social science, or voodoo.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • bbiggsbbiggs Posts: 3,310
    I don’t understand how this is beneficial.  All students should have an opportunity at higher education if they have the grades.  That’s where financial aid comes in.  Those who could not otherwise afford it are given the same opportunity to go to school.  This “adversity scoring” makes zero sense to me.  
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 18,575
    bbiggs said:
    I don’t understand how this is beneficial.  All students should have an opportunity at higher education if they have the grades.  That’s where financial aid comes in.  Those who could not otherwise afford it are given the same opportunity to go to school.  This “adversity scoring” makes zero sense to me.  
    I understand it’s meant to help people that normally wouldn’t have a chance but if you’re applying for college, to me, you’ve got a great opportunity. 


  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 3,502
    And does no one (no one who comes up with these ideas) realize that for ever person accepted into a college because of a curved SAT score, some middle class get is getting rejected?
  • bbiggsbbiggs Posts: 3,310
    mace1229 said:
    And does no one (no one who comes up with these ideas) realize that for ever person accepted into a college because of a curved SAT score, some middle class get is getting rejected?
    Or someone who may have had better grades and/or test scores is getting rejected.  Not good. 
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,083
    Ok, I don’t know about the specifics. But on the surface this seems like a terrible fucking idea. Some idiot that didn’t get good grades in the past and isn’t smart enough had to think this shit up. 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 7,651
    mace1229 said:
    I used to think there wasn't really such a thing as a biased question or that income couldn't really impact your education. Then I became a teacher in South-Central LA. That definitely does exist, and probably a much larger issue than most think, especially in neighborhoods like South-Central. 
    But to your question, does an adversity score help anyone? I don't think so. These tests are intended to be used as a basis for college readiness. If you put the SAT on a "curve" based on your background, you are just setting that person up for failure in college. Ask any college professor and they'll tell you every year their incoming freshmen get worse and worse. Unfortunately it doesn't matter what your background is, if you aren't prepared for college you can be setting yourself up for failure. Some of these standardized tests can actually be used to as placement, you will take remedial classes before taking a real college course.
    If not in college, then when do we expect someone to hold their own? If we do it for college, then their first job in the real world is going to be that much tougher when they are suddenly forced to realize they have the same expectations as everyone else. I see it now, we have IEPs for far too many kids to help them through high school and it doesn't help prepare many them, its a crutch they learn to rely on. This may have the same effect. 
    It's logical to me that there would be a strong causal relationship between many of the listed factors and an individual's education - however if the corrective action of putting the struggling individual into a new stream turns out to be ineffective (or worse, destructive, like you're suggesting here), then this is just wasteful.

    Working more and more in the business analytics space these days, I cringe at the amount of times when people look for data to surface good or bad news, and then neglect to do anything meaningful with those findings. We are such curious people but also so unfocused and rarely goal-driven to the extent that we should be, and we spend stupid amounts of energy to assuage that curiosity. This test seems like an example of that.
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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 27,252
    I'm no longer teaching but in the past have put in a total of about 9 years teaching in various capacities including grade schools and community college. 

    My thinking is that "adversity scoring" is an OK idea in terms of intentions, but not in terms of finding a good, viable, long-term solution.  I think in a way it's putting the cart before the horse.  I would propose this problem be tackled in two stages:

    1.  Make SAT test fair for all cultural groups and socio-economic levels through careful wording of test questions.  A misunderstood question due to wording does not necessarily reflect intelligence or lack thereof.  So in other words, reduce the question biases as much as possible.

    2.  Secondly, I think we would do well to work toward eliminating as much as possible conditions that create adversity in the first place.  Many will argue that this is unrealistic.  "There always have been and always will be the poor", they will say.  Yes, true, but what are we doing to reduce the discrepancies in socio-economic levels?  Doing what we can to reduce discrimination, prejudice and bigotry is the most important first step.  Recognizing and facing our own biases is the first part of that process.  What I'm proposing is a long, uphill task, but I think it's one worth striving for.

    And I would add two other things:

    1.  Demand that teaching be treated as, and carried out as a profession, not a baby sitting job.  Teachers need to be trained at a higher level in America than they are and then compensated at an appropriate professional level.  Believe me, I've seen some very incompetent people working in this field. 

    2.  Likewise, if not demand then at least strongly encourage students to excel both in scholastic learning as well as in social skills and creativity.  Eliminate the bullshit "everyone is a winner" nonsense (we've discussed this in HFD's excellent thread on "inclusion").  Get real.  In the larger sense, we in America have failed at our job of educating our youth and, as a result, our youth are failing as well.  The "dumbing down" of America is a real and tragic condition.
    "The answer is never the answer.  What's really interesting is the mystery.  If you seek the mystery instead of the answer, you'll always be seeking."
    -Ken Kesey
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • bbiggsbbiggs Posts: 3,310
    ^ “2.  Likewise, if not demand then at least strongly encourage students to excel both in scholastic learning as well as in social skills and creativity.  Eliminate the bullshit "everyone is a winner" nonsense (we've discussed this in HFD's excellent thread on "inclusion").  Get real.  In the larger sense, we in America have failed at our job of educating our youth and, as a result, our youth are failing as well.  The "dumbing down" of America is a real and tragic condition.”

    This is spot on. America is becoming the land of mediocrity. Enough of the “everyone gets a trophy” bullshit. 
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 20,177
    It’s not as much “everyone gets a trophy bullshit” as it is the massive cuts to federal and state education funding, demonizing of teacher’s unions and the privatization of public education through the charter school movement. Read up on Betsy DeVos and her assault on education. Add the diverting of funds for religious schooling, teaching creationism and bible instruction in public schools and you’ve got, “I love the uneducated.”

    I’m a product of public education. Does it show?
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    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 20,177
    Interesting SAT stats here:

    https://blog.prepscholar.com/average-sat-scores-over-time

    And I forgot the damning and ridiculing of being educated and having skills by prominent public figures.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 27,252
    It’s not as much “everyone gets a trophy bullshit” as it is the massive cuts to federal and state education funding, demonizing of teacher’s unions and the privatization of public education through the charter school movement. Read up on Betsy DeVos and her assault on education. Add the diverting of funds for religious schooling, teaching creationism and bible instruction in public schools and you’ve got, “I love the uneducated.”

    I’m a product of public education. Does it show?
    That's definitely part of the Breakdown of Education in America formula. 

    Public funds get diverted for religious teaching?  Man.  As a kid and through high school, I was put through the whole Sunday school/ Teen Time thing-  I spaced out on most of that teaching although I did think the idea that "Jesus loves all the little children of the world" was very cool-  but at least back then it was paid for by the church members and taught by volunteers-  as it should be and not by the gov. 

    "The answer is never the answer.  What's really interesting is the mystery.  If you seek the mystery instead of the answer, you'll always be seeking."
    -Ken Kesey
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • bbiggsbbiggs Posts: 3,310
    ^ Yep.  Budget cuts and under-funded school districts are a huge problem in IL. The state owes several districts millions of dollars. 
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 20,177
    Team Trump Treason judicial nominees regularly avoid answering questions about whether they’ll uphold Brown vs board of education. Don’t want the colored folk disrupting the revolution. “I love the uneducated.”
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

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  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 11,880
    This aligns the test more closely to an IQ-style, and that's why I don't think it's nearly as bad an idea as you old curmudgeons do lol

    The SAT has never been a true aptitude test, it's always been more of a knowledge test, which is not a good measure of whether a student has the skills for higher education.  Adjusting scores to reflect the disadvantages some students face doesn't dumb everything down, and it doesn't do any of the reactionary and over-the-top things that people claim.  It gives another point of data in assessing the readiness of a student.  I think an IQ test in conjunction with knowledge tests like SAT and ACT would provide better data, but the real test of readiness for college isn't covered by either.  Note-taking, organization, and dedication are too hard to measure though so we are stuck with bad data.  Might as well try to make the little/bad it reflect as much as possible.
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