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“Seattle is Dying” KOMO Doc.

1ThoughtKnown1ThoughtKnown Posts: 6,155
in A Moving Train
I went to Seattle for one of the home shows last summer.  I have been to Seattle four times in the past 15 years but the first time since 2013.
I noticed the homeless problem was (much) worse and applaud the boys in PJ for what they did.

I stumbled across a recent documentary on KOMO.  This is a real eye-opener. I suggest watching the doc all the way through.  A possible solution is discussed which is occurring in Rhode Island:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bpAi70WWBlw
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  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,012
    Well, wow, where to begin...

    I watched the whole program.  It's well done and worth watching (especially for anyone wanting to discuss this here- I hope those who post here will actually take the time to watch it before posting). 

    The situation talked about here in Seattle is the same in many cities.  As was pointed out, San Francisco is very much having the same issues- and it has one of the highest cost of living for any city in the US or Canada.  Sacramento, Oakland, L.A. - same thing.   And these are just the places I know fairly well. 

    Hard drugs are an obvious major part of the problem.  I'm totally in agreement that hard drug dealers need to be dealt with much more severely.  Like John Kay (Steppenwolf) said,  "Goddamn the pusher man".  And better, more accessible recovery programs are definitely a must.

    But simply more incarceration?  I'm not convinced that is a major answer.  First off,  the United States already has the highest rate of incarceration (percentage, not numbers) in the world.  ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate )  And yet, out of 203 countries, we have the 14th highest rate of crime  ( https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Violent-crime/Murder-rate )  So obviously simply incarcerating people is not resolving the issues.  We have as much a prison industry problem as a criminal problem.

    I also think these problems are indicative of some bigger issues like over-population, a ever increasingly decaying educational system, dysfunctional governmental agencies, poor leadership, an ever widening disparity of economic wealth, racism and racial profiling, and environmental and nutritional issues causing an increase in the frequency and type physical and mental health issues. 



    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • 1ThoughtKnown1ThoughtKnown Posts: 6,155
    edited March 2019
    The example they showed in Rhode Island was not “simply more incarceration”.
    I see your point, we must get to the root cause of the issues, but if people feel they can break laws and not be punished, you have to be able to see how this would make it difficult for any policeman/woman to maintain a high morale level.

    These issues are everywhere (here in Calgary but on a much smaller scale)  but the fact is that some people need help, and that help can come through the justice system.  But if you are arrested 34 times in 5 years and are simply thrown back on the street, that isn’t working. 

    Agree with you that it was well done.   It’s a Seattle story but one that is in every large city in the free world. 

  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,012
    1ThoughtKnown said:
    The example they showed in Rhode Island was not “simply more incarceration”.
    I see your point, we must get to the root cause of the issues, but if people feel they can break laws and not be punished, you have to be able to see how this would make it difficult for any policeman/woman to maintain a high morale level.

    These issues are everywhere (here in Calgary but on a much smaller scale)  but the fact is that some people need help, and that help can come through the justice system.  But if you are arrested 34 times in 5 years and are simply thrown back on the street, that isn’t working. 

    Agree with you that it was well done.   It’s a Seattle story but one that is in every large city in the free world. 

    What I mean is, we are already leading the world in incarcerating people and yet we still have these great issues with hard drugs, homelessness and crime.  If what the story shows is true (you have to know I'm skeptical about just about every news report I read and watch these days, but I'll give this one the benefit of the doubt and assume it is at least close to true), the Seattle is indeed doing a poor job of enforcing laws. 

    Now I won't swear to this because a) I don't want to offend my fellow left leaning/ liberal friends here and b) I don't know Seattle politics well enough to be certain about this, but I wonder if part of the problem there is that people tend to just assume giving the street people tents, food, leniency, etc. (in the film they talk about how  Seattle is sometimes referred to as "Freeattle) because it's easier to do that than it is to do the harder work of solving the problems?  There are times where tough love is more effective than giving handouts as a way of assuaging guilt or dodging an issue. 

    And don't get me wrong- a good liberal knows the value of tough love.  Some just don't want to deal with it.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    Seattle is fucked. We've been discussing this in the Seattle Homeless thread. 
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • camsjamcamsjam Posts: 375
    brianlux said:
    1ThoughtKnown said:
    The example they showed in Rhode Island was not “simply more incarceration”.
    I see your point, we must get to the root cause of the issues, but if people feel they can break laws and not be punished, you have to be able to see how this would make it difficult for any policeman/woman to maintain a high morale level.

    These issues are everywhere (here in Calgary but on a much smaller scale)  but the fact is that some people need help, and that help can come through the justice system.  But if you are arrested 34 times in 5 years and are simply thrown back on the street, that isn’t working. 

    Agree with you that it was well done.   It’s a Seattle story but one that is in every large city in the free world. 

    What I mean is, we are already leading the world in incarcerating people and yet we still have these great issues with hard drugs, homelessness and crime.  If what the story shows is true (you have to know I'm skeptical about just about every news report I read and watch these days, but I'll give this one the benefit of the doubt and assume it is at least close to true), the Seattle is indeed doing a poor job of enforcing laws. 

    Now I won't swear to this because a) I don't want to offend my fellow left leaning/ liberal friends here and b) I don't know Seattle politics well enough to be certain about this, but I wonder if part of the problem there is that people tend to just assume giving the street people tents, food, leniency, etc. (in the film they talk about how  Seattle is sometimes referred to as "Freeattle) because it's easier to do that than it is to do the harder work of solving the problems?  There are times where tough love is more effective than giving handouts as a way of assuaging guilt or dodging an issue. 

    And don't get me wrong- a good liberal knows the value of tough love.  Some just don't want to deal with it.
    A well done piece that makes some great points. I've also considered myself a left leaning liberal but is it really more compassionate to let them live the way they are -cold outside dirty and hungry doing drugs till they die? Two criminals were shown.  A meth head who said he was "having a blast' stealing and shown spitting and trying to bite police officers trying to stop him. He was from Nevada. The POS who beat, robbed and raped a 71 year old woman and sells meth in front of the court house came from California. I wonder what percentage of the homeless there now came from other states when they heard they could use drugs in public, camp almost anywhere and steal and commit other acts without being arrested. They aren't interested in making Seattle their home but taking advantage of the situation. The city government needs to relook at the get out of jail free card. It isn't working.
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Posts: 10,758
    edited March 2019
    camsjam said:
    brianlux said:
    1ThoughtKnown said:
    The example they showed in Rhode Island was not “simply more incarceration”.
    I see your point, we must get to the root cause of the issues, but if people feel they can break laws and not be punished, you have to be able to see how this would make it difficult for any policeman/woman to maintain a high morale level.

    These issues are everywhere (here in Calgary but on a much smaller scale)  but the fact is that some people need help, and that help can come through the justice system.  But if you are arrested 34 times in 5 years and are simply thrown back on the street, that isn’t working. 

    Agree with you that it was well done.   It’s a Seattle story but one that is in every large city in the free world. 

    What I mean is, we are already leading the world in incarcerating people and yet we still have these great issues with hard drugs, homelessness and crime.  If what the story shows is true (you have to know I'm skeptical about just about every news report I read and watch these days, but I'll give this one the benefit of the doubt and assume it is at least close to true), the Seattle is indeed doing a poor job of enforcing laws. 

    Now I won't swear to this because a) I don't want to offend my fellow left leaning/ liberal friends here and b) I don't know Seattle politics well enough to be certain about this, but I wonder if part of the problem there is that people tend to just assume giving the street people tents, food, leniency, etc. (in the film they talk about how  Seattle is sometimes referred to as "Freeattle) because it's easier to do that than it is to do the harder work of solving the problems?  There are times where tough love is more effective than giving handouts as a way of assuaging guilt or dodging an issue. 

    And don't get me wrong- a good liberal knows the value of tough love.  Some just don't want to deal with it.
    A well done piece that makes some great points. I've also considered myself a left leaning liberal but is it really more compassionate to let them live the way they are -cold outside dirty and hungry doing drugs till they die? Two criminals were shown.  A meth head who said he was "having a blast' stealing and shown spitting and trying to bite police officers trying to stop him. He was from Nevada. The POS who beat, robbed and raped a 71 year old woman and sells meth in front of the court house came from California. I wonder what percentage of the homeless there now came from other states when they heard they could use drugs in public, camp almost anywhere and steal and commit other acts without being arrested. They aren't interested in making Seattle their home but taking advantage of the situation. The city government needs to relook at the get out of jail free card. It isn't working.
    It clearly is not working
    I saw the same problems in Denver/Boulder when I lived there.
    A friend of many years who has lived in Seattle for 20+ years is considering moving because of the various problems.

    Here is what he has told me over the years... 
    A lot of the people on the street in Seattle are not truly homeless. They are transient.
    They choose to be on the street and as long as the city and its residents continue to coddle them nothing will change.

    He believes that the city of Seattle and others like it needs....
    Rehab rather than imprisonment
    More affordable, not free, housing
    Proper healthcare
    Job Training 
    Law changes in regards to public camping, public drug use, etc
    Etc
  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    We frequent Seattle a lot. 

    I have a heart, but I find the homeless situation there very disconcerting. The homeless people we come across are very aggressive and have me manage our itinerary (where we park, walk, eat, leave, etc.).

    There was one occasion when, going to a Seahawks game, we hadn’t even gotten out of the vehicle and a woman in a rough way was at the window of the truck with her hand out). We have her $5 and proceeded to make our way towards the stadium district.

    After the game, we came back to the truck and she was still there- obviously her ‘area’. She approached us and wanted more money. I explained to her that we already helped her out earlier and that we weren’t helping her out anymore. She persisted and got relentlessly hostile- not to mention absolutely pathetic. I gave her nothing more.

    I was with my daughter waiting for my friends. I eventually got pissed off- unsure how I should have felt? I was hating this woman and Seattle in that moment.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,012
    camsjam said:
    brianlux said:
    1ThoughtKnown said:
    The example they showed in Rhode Island was not “simply more incarceration”.
    I see your point, we must get to the root cause of the issues, but if people feel they can break laws and not be punished, you have to be able to see how this would make it difficult for any policeman/woman to maintain a high morale level.

    These issues are everywhere (here in Calgary but on a much smaller scale)  but the fact is that some people need help, and that help can come through the justice system.  But if you are arrested 34 times in 5 years and are simply thrown back on the street, that isn’t working. 

    Agree with you that it was well done.   It’s a Seattle story but one that is in every large city in the free world. 

    What I mean is, we are already leading the world in incarcerating people and yet we still have these great issues with hard drugs, homelessness and crime.  If what the story shows is true (you have to know I'm skeptical about just about every news report I read and watch these days, but I'll give this one the benefit of the doubt and assume it is at least close to true), the Seattle is indeed doing a poor job of enforcing laws. 

    Now I won't swear to this because a) I don't want to offend my fellow left leaning/ liberal friends here and b) I don't know Seattle politics well enough to be certain about this, but I wonder if part of the problem there is that people tend to just assume giving the street people tents, food, leniency, etc. (in the film they talk about how  Seattle is sometimes referred to as "Freeattle) because it's easier to do that than it is to do the harder work of solving the problems?  There are times where tough love is more effective than giving handouts as a way of assuaging guilt or dodging an issue. 

    And don't get me wrong- a good liberal knows the value of tough love.  Some just don't want to deal with it.
    A well done piece that makes some great points. I've also considered myself a left leaning liberal but is it really more compassionate to let them live the way they are -cold outside dirty and hungry doing drugs till they die? Two criminals were shown.  A meth head who said he was "having a blast' stealing and shown spitting and trying to bite police officers trying to stop him. He was from Nevada. The POS who beat, robbed and raped a 71 year old woman and sells meth in front of the court house came from California. I wonder what percentage of the homeless there now came from other states when they heard they could use drugs in public, camp almost anywhere and steal and commit other acts without being arrested. They aren't interested in making Seattle their home but taking advantage of the situation. The city government needs to relook at the get out of jail free card. It isn't working.
    Quiet a few from the sound of it.  They were saying in the video that Seattle's lax stance on criminal homeless is what is attracting more and more of them.

    My small city of Placerville (oddly enough because this is a very conservative town) had an area that was set up by the city as basically a homeless camp.  Homeless people were allowed to set up camp there and food and clothing was generously provided for them.  But of course, as one would expect, the situation was taken advantage of and got out of hand and the camp had to be removed. 

    Handouts alone are just not the answer.  I agree that no one in America should starve, but it's going to take a lot more than just handing out money, food and clothing to improve the situation. 

    There were a lot of people homeless during the depression.  I wonder what the percentage of homeless then was compared to today?  I wonder if there is something we can learn from this give us better ideas as to how to deal with today's homeless situation.  I think the big difference today is the prevalence of hard drugs, especially meth amphetamines.

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 Posts: 10,739
    I had the pleasure of meeting a nurse a few years back that used to work with the homeless and drug-addicted homeless.  She also referred to the homeless problem in my area as more of a drug problem that fuels homelessness.  2 things she told me that stood out, 1 80% of the drug addicted homeless are never going to function properly and adapt like most of us...as sad as it was for her to say, many are damaged beyond repair, and number 2, needles...very few people who are shooting drugs into their veins recover from that...of course some do, but the overall percentage is low.  The only solution in her mind is to find a way to get them off the streets into some type of facility that can better manage these people...while allowing as many freedoms as possible.
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 15,937
    Meltdown99 said:
    I had the pleasure of meeting a nurse a few years back that used to work with the homeless and drug-addicted homeless.  She also referred to the homeless problem in my area as more of a drug problem that fuels homelessness.  2 things she told me that stood out, 1 80% of the drug addicted homeless are never going to function properly and adapt like most of us...as sad as it was for her to say, many are damaged beyond repair, and number 2, needles...very few people who are shooting drugs into their veins recover from that...of course some do, but the overall percentage is low.  The only solution in her mind is to find a way to get them off the streets into some type of facility that can better manage these people...while allowing as many freedoms as possible.
    Makes sense to me.  Let’s spend the billions actually taking care of these people instead of allowing them to live on the street.  Life is about choices.  Taking drugs is a bad choice and the consequence is uncontrollable addiction.  They surrendered their freedom and control the moment they stuck the needle in their arm.  The drug is their oppressor at that point and not government.  

    Just typing this scares me about ever getting to a place where I would stick a needle in my arm.


  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    bootlegger10 said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    I had the pleasure of meeting a nurse a few years back that used to work with the homeless and drug-addicted homeless.  She also referred to the homeless problem in my area as more of a drug problem that fuels homelessness.  2 things she told me that stood out, 1 80% of the drug addicted homeless are never going to function properly and adapt like most of us...as sad as it was for her to say, many are damaged beyond repair, and number 2, needles...very few people who are shooting drugs into their veins recover from that...of course some do, but the overall percentage is low.  The only solution in her mind is to find a way to get them off the streets into some type of facility that can better manage these people...while allowing as many freedoms as possible.
    Makes sense to me.  Let’s spend the billions actually taking care of these people instead of allowing them to live on the street.  Life is about choices.  Taking drugs is a bad choice and the consequence is uncontrollable addiction.  They surrendered their freedom and control the moment they stuck the needle in their arm.  The drug is their oppressor at that point and not government.  

    Just typing this scares me about ever getting to a place where I would stick a needle in my arm.


    Couldn’t imagine.

    On The Farm- a great book detailing the Robert Picton case- spoke at length about the backgrounds of the prostitutes he preyed on.

    In the majority of cases, the young woman fell for a guy who introduced them to hard drugs. Eventually, without any money, the boyfriend would convince the girlfriend to go with a stranger and ‘earn’ money for their next fix.

    The guy would inevitably leave the girl. And... the girl was now burdened with drug addiction and a lifestyle to support her drug addiction.

    Just horrendous to think about. Even the ‘johns’ preying on these women’s vulnerability made me think aspects of society were cold, heartless and horrific.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    Visit Detroit.   

    Fucking Seattle... boo hoo
  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 15,937
    Yeah, I fully agree nobody wants to be a junky when they grow up., and am not blaming anyone for getting addicted  But once they are it doesn’t seem like there are a lot of options and living in a tent shouldn’t be one of them.  A few thousand are jacking up a city of over a million and that is unacceptable.
  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Jason P said:
    Visit Detroit.   

    Fucking Seattle... boo hoo
    Lol

    Good point.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 Posts: 10,739
    bootlegger10 said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    I had the pleasure of meeting a nurse a few years back that used to work with the homeless and drug-addicted homeless.  She also referred to the homeless problem in my area as more of a drug problem that fuels homelessness.  2 things she told me that stood out, 1 80% of the drug addicted homeless are never going to function properly and adapt like most of us...as sad as it was for her to say, many are damaged beyond repair, and number 2, needles...very few people who are shooting drugs into their veins recover from that...of course some do, but the overall percentage is low.  The only solution in her mind is to find a way to get them off the streets into some type of facility that can better manage these people...while allowing as many freedoms as possible.
    Makes sense to me.  Let’s spend the billions actually taking care of these people instead of allowing them to live on the street.  Life is about choices.  Taking drugs is a bad choice and the consequence is uncontrollable addiction.  They surrendered their freedom and control the moment they stuck the needle in their arm.  The drug is their oppressor at that point and not government.  

    Just typing this scares me about ever getting to a place where I would stick a needle in my arm.


    Maybe we have to start looking at this way, we provide safe nursing homes for the elderly when they cannot take care of themselves.  We may need to look at similar to facilities for the drug addicted homeless, with medical support and addiction support...and hope we can reach a certain % who can get off the drugs...and get cleaned up.

    Another thing she pointed out, even the ones you get off drugs still are hard to employ...for obvious reasons.

    And I have no problem spending money on our vulnerable in our society.  

    I would say be kind, we do not know what many of these folks have been through and are going through...
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • chadwickchadwick Posts: 21,157
    i dislike cities, large towns, mass structures of steel & concrete, piles & piles of noise & people. frigg that bullshit. however, i always thought if there were a city i'd live it'd be seattle. seems fun & stuff. 
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,012
    chadwick said:
    i dislike cities, large towns, mass structures of steel & concrete, piles & piles of noise & people. frigg that bullshit. however, i always thought if there were a city i'd live it'd be seattle. seems fun & stuff. 
    Hey there, Sir Chadwick!

    I used to love going to big cities and very much enjoyed much of my time living in San Francisco (but it was a different place 40 years ago). Now days, I generally don't care at all for big cities any more.     Some of that may be due to my age- I feel more vulnerable- but a lot of it is due to the changing vibe in most big cities.  I might go to Seattle one more time to visit family there and see the new Jimi Hendrix Park, but otherwise, I have no interest.  My wife asked me if I would go to Antarctica with her someday.  That would be more likely than going to some big city.


    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    chadwick said:
    i dislike cities, large towns, mass structures of steel & concrete, piles & piles of noise & people. frigg that bullshit. however, i always thought if there were a city i'd live it'd be seattle. seems fun & stuff. 
    It’s better than we’re giving it credit for at this moment. It’s great.

    Nice to hear from you, C!
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • 1ThoughtKnown1ThoughtKnown Posts: 6,155
    edited March 2019
    brianlux said:
    1ThoughtKnown said:
    The example they showed in Rhode Island was not “simply more incarceration”.
    I see your point, we must get to the root cause of the issues, but if people feel they can break laws and not be punished, you have to be able to see how this would make it difficult for any policeman/woman to maintain a high morale level.

    These issues are everywhere (here in Calgary but on a much smaller scale)  but the fact is that some people need help, and that help can come through the justice system.  But if you are arrested 34 times in 5 years and are simply thrown back on the street, that isn’t working. 

    Agree with you that it was well done.   It’s a Seattle story but one that is in every large city in the free world. 

    What I mean is, we are already leading the world in incarcerating people and yet we still have these great issues with hard drugs, homelessness and crime.  If what the story shows is true (you have to know I'm skeptical about just about every news report I read and watch these days, but I'll give this one the benefit of the doubt and assume it is at least close to true), the Seattle is indeed doing a poor job of enforcing laws. 

    Now I won't swear to this because a) I don't want to offend my fellow left leaning/ liberal friends here and b) I don't know Seattle politics well enough to be certain about this, but I wonder if part of the problem there is that people tend to just assume giving the street people tents, food, leniency, etc. (in the film they talk about how  Seattle is sometimes referred to as "Freeattle) because it's easier to do that than it is to do the harder work of solving the problems?  There are times where tough love is more effective than giving handouts as a way of assuaging guilt or dodging an issue. 

    And don't get me wrong- a good liberal knows the value of tough love.  Some just don't want to deal with it.
    You should never worry about offending left-leaning liberal folks because you are entitled to your opinions. In Canada politically the left is divided into the "center-lefts" (Liberals) and the "further-left" (New Democratic Party).  They disagree on many things.

    When I was thinking of this issue I was not trying to politicize it.  Your comment on "tough love" hits the nail on the head.  We have some problems in Canada but we do not have a problem with police officers arresting people 34 times just for them to be thrown back on the street.  The shocking thing was the number of these folks who think they have found "anarchist heaven". They can do what they want and there are no repercussions.

    Last summer there are two instances which stuck out in my mind. I was walking back from Pioneer Square to the Market area and this young woman was screaming incessantly.  I felt immediately uncomfortable as she walked diagonal across the street onto the sidewalk in front of me and into an enclave of an empty store front and continued screaming.  I wanted to stop and ask her what was wrong, I really did.  But it was unsettling.  I carried on... not feeling great about it.

    I then walked through the Market area but it was so crowded I just wanted out.  Once back outside on there was Rastafarian looking fellow who was screaming "I'm gonna blow your fuckin head off!" among many other rants to anyone who would listen. I decided to head in another direction.

    The thing that sticks out at me was no one batted an eye in either situation.  No one seemed uncomfortable, that this is normal.  These two events occurred within 5-10 minutes of each other.  From those experiences I kind of understood the reaction of the family from Tennessee in the documentary.  It is surprising and unnerving for tourists, yet the locals seemed to have gotten used to this.

    The police officers must feel helpless.  To arrest the same people again and again and them to not get incarcerated or (better)the help they need must be heartbreaking. They put their lives on the line for what?  It must feel like being a mall cop or something....

    Post edited by 1ThoughtKnown on
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,012
    1ThoughtKnown said:
    brianlux said:
    1ThoughtKnown said:
    The example they showed in Rhode Island was not “simply more incarceration”.
    I see your point, we must get to the root cause of the issues, but if people feel they can break laws and not be punished, you have to be able to see how this would make it difficult for any policeman/woman to maintain a high morale level.

    These issues are everywhere (here in Calgary but on a much smaller scale)  but the fact is that some people need help, and that help can come through the justice system.  But if you are arrested 34 times in 5 years and are simply thrown back on the street, that isn’t working. 

    Agree with you that it was well done.   It’s a Seattle story but one that is in every large city in the free world. 

    What I mean is, we are already leading the world in incarcerating people and yet we still have these great issues with hard drugs, homelessness and crime.  If what the story shows is true (you have to know I'm skeptical about just about every news report I read and watch these days, but I'll give this one the benefit of the doubt and assume it is at least close to true), the Seattle is indeed doing a poor job of enforcing laws. 

    Now I won't swear to this because a) I don't want to offend my fellow left leaning/ liberal friends here and b) I don't know Seattle politics well enough to be certain about this, but I wonder if part of the problem there is that people tend to just assume giving the street people tents, food, leniency, etc. (in the film they talk about how  Seattle is sometimes referred to as "Freeattle) because it's easier to do that than it is to do the harder work of solving the problems?  There are times where tough love is more effective than giving handouts as a way of assuaging guilt or dodging an issue. 

    And don't get me wrong- a good liberal knows the value of tough love.  Some just don't want to deal with it.
    You should never worry about offending left-leaning liberal folks because you are entitled to your opinions. In Canada politically the left is divided into the "center-lefts" (Liberals) and the "further-left" (New Democratic Party).  They disagree on many things.

    When I was thinking of this issue I was not trying to politicize it.  Your comment on "tough love" hits the nail on the head.  We have some problems in Canada but we do not have a problem with police officers arresting people 34 times just for them to be thrown back on the street.  The shocking thing was the number of these folks who think they have found "anarchist heaven". They can do what they want and there are no repercussions.

    Last summer there are two instances which stuck out in my mind. I was walking back from Pioneer Square to the Market area and this young woman was screaming incessantly.  I felt immediately uncomfortable as she walked diagonal across the street onto the sidewalk in front of me and into an enclave of an empty store front and continued screaming.  I wanted to stop and ask her what was wrong, I really did.  But it was unsettling.  I carried on... not feeling great about it.

    I then walked through the Market area but it was so crowded I just wanted out.  Once back outside on there was Rastafarian looking fellow who was screaming "I'm gonna blow your fuckin head off!" among many other rants to anyone who would listen. I decided to head in another direction.

    The thing that sticks out at me was no one batted an eye in either situation.  No one seemed uncomfortable, that this is normal.  These two events occurred within 5-10 minutes of each other.  From those experiences I kind of understood the reaction of the family from Tennessee in the documentary.  It is surprising and unnerving for tourists, yet the locals seemed to have gotten used to this.

    The police officers must feel helpless.  To arrest the same people again and again and them to not get incarcerated or (better)the help they need must be heartbreaking. They put their lives on the line for what?  It must feel like being a mall cop or something....

    Wow- very unsettling when that kind of behavior is normalized to the point where most people ignore it.  I think you did the right thing by not sticking around. 

    And good point that avoiding politicizing the issue.  It really needs to be dealt with on a bi-partisan level.  
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    I watched the doc... 

    The west coast has always had issyes with homeless due to the mild weather... but Seattle has definitely changed since i went in 2005,  and now i'm not so sure i would have any interest in going back any time soon
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Meanwhile.......... Jeff Bezos is worth $130 billion and Bill Gates is worth $95 billion....

  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,012
    my2hands said:
    Meanwhile.......... Jeff Bezos is worth $130 billion and Bill Gates is worth $95 billion....

    Bezos... oh man... don't get me started.  :lol:
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,078
    Jason P said:
    Visit Detroit.   

    Fucking Seattle... boo hoo
    I think the west coast gets a bad rap because it’s more visible here. NYC has the highest rate of homelessness. 
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,948
    edited April 2019
    Go Beavers said:
    Jason P said:
    Visit Detroit.   

    Fucking Seattle... boo hoo
    I think the west coast gets a bad rap because it’s more visible here. NYC has the highest rate of homelessness. 
    Over 63,000 homeless people in NYC, including those living in homeless shelters. 12,500 in Seattle. That is quite a difference. However, 8.4 million people live in New York city, and only 725,000 people live in Seattle. That means that 1.724% of the Seattle population is homeless, and only 0.75% of the NYC population is homeless. And Seattle is only a quarter of the size in terms of actual land mass, and the area where the homeless tend to actually live in is a minuscule fraction of the area they do in NYC. So yeah, that explains why it seems like and is a worse problem in Seattle.

    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,078
    PJ_Soul said:
    Go Beavers said:
    Jason P said:
    Visit Detroit.   

    Fucking Seattle... boo hoo
    I think the west coast gets a bad rap because it’s more visible here. NYC has the highest rate of homelessness. 
    Over 63,000 homeless people in NYC, including those living in homeless shelters. 12,500 in Seattle. That is quite a difference. However, 8.4 million people live in New York city, and only 725,000 people live in Seattle. That means that 1.724% of the Seattle population is homeless, and only 0.75% of the NYC population is homeless. And Seattle is only a quarter of the size in terms of actual land mass, and the area where the homeless tend to actually live in is a minuscule fraction of the area they do in NYC. So yeah, that explains why it seems like and is a worse problem in Seattle.
    Interesting map here, having DC, Boston and NYC as highest in rate per 10,000 residents. It can depend on how you look at the numbers. 

  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,948
    But damn, in both cases, that is a HIGH percentage of the population being homeless. People here in Vancouver are completely freaked out about the number of homeless people there are - everyone considers it to be at crisis levels and it's a major topic for our politicians - and the percentage of the population that is homeless in Vancouver proper is only 0.345%, which is still way too high obviously, because it should basically be 0% in countries with as much wealth as ours have.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 40,350
    I have no idea where NYC is hiding all these homeless...
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,948
    edited April 2019
    tempo_n_groove said:
    I have no idea where NYC is hiding all these homeless...
    I haven't been there for a pretty long while, but yeah, same here. I spent days there, walking all over the city day and night, and I only saw maybe 3 homeless people the entire time. I couldn't believe it, because it seems to much worse in Vancouver and feels ever-present wherever you go in the city, and our rate is apparently low?? Wtf. I practically had the impression that NYC had just about eradicated homelessness altogether just based on my experience! I mean, I knew that wasn't the case, but that's how it felt.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 Posts: 28,491
    tempo_n_groove said:
    I have no idea where NYC is hiding all these homeless...
    Staten Island?
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
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