The Democratic Candidates

Lerxst1992

I agree Beto was out of his mind for saying that, but remember he has been spending alot of time in his hometown under a river of blood.

Back to "the govt at the time" I think if we closely examine the stats I posted earlier about the war of 1812, its extremely easy to figure out what the framers were thinking regarding available numbers of military, militia and threats to national security.

If the purpose of 2a was to expand individual rights why was the purpose explicitly stated to "being necessary to the security of a free State."

When I read that it screams to me Mother England.



Its alot more plausible than Scalias comma theory. The framers could have left all the commas and qualifying words out and simply state all people have an inherent right to bear arms. But they did not do that.


Further, legend has it Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson noticed a misprint with the commas at the 11th hour, too late to do anything as incorrect versions had already been advanced to the states.

PJPOWER

Lerxst1992 said:

I agree Beto was out of his mind for saying that, but remember he has been spending alot of time in his hometown under a river of blood.

Back to "the govt at the time" I think if we closely examine the stats I posted earlier about the war of 1812, its extremely easy to figure out what the framers were thinking regarding available numbers of military, militia and threats to national security.

If the purpose of 2a was to expand individual rights why was the purpose explicitly stated to "being necessary to the security of a free State."

When I read that it screams to me Mother England.



Its alot more plausible than Scalias comma theory. The framers could have left all the commas and qualifying words out and simply state all people have an inherent right to bear arms. But they did not do that.


Further, legend has it Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson noticed a misprint with the commas at the 11th hour, too late to do anything as incorrect versions had already been advanced to the states.

The thing is, even if the intent was for only militia men to be armed, the individual states decided who was and was not considered “militia”.  I mentioned that some states have recently declared or threatened to declare every citizen within that state as being members of the “militia”.  Even if the Supreme Court decides that the 2nd Amendment only applies to “militia”, what are states that support armed citizen going to do...?  They are going to declare that all citizens are members of their state militia.  
The definition of “militia” has changed numerous times throughout history.  No wonder it cannot be agreed upon today.   
I’ve never heard of that Thomas Jefferson legend.
Truthfully, in 1812, the government was probably more concerned about having enough people armed than worrying that too many were.  They wanted to be able to call on as many armed people as possible to provide defense at a moments notice.
Anyways, for what it’s worth, this has been an enjoyable debate.  It’s nice to not get interrupted constantly by the usual one liner catch phrase dumbasses (you know who you are).  I better go get some actual work done now, though

Lerxst1992

ROFL. I miss that certain someone wanting Euro style govt in the US.

I very much agree with "They wanted to be able to call on as many armed people as possible to provide defense at a moments notice" regarding the War of 1812. 

Our founders were understandably worried about Europe. Our country was not the military force it is in modern times. It relied on the militia for security.  That's the way it was for the US 1790 to 1812.

For Scalia to completely nullify all those words because of commas and ignore the big influences at the time the amendment was written is a significant miscarriage of Justice.


.

Lerxst1992

Figured I'd post the Jefferson story over in the gun topic.

dignin

Warren Closes In on Biden in New Democratic Poll

While Biden collected 31% of Democratic primary voters in the poll released Tuesday, Warren was closing in on the top spot with 25%. Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, the only other candidate in double digits, came in third with 14% in the poll that was conducted shortly after the Dems' third debate in Houston last week.

Rounding out the top five was South Bend, Ind., Mayor Pete Buttigieg with 7% and California Senator Kamala Harris with 5%. And although Buttigieg didn't lose ground, Harris fell back 8 points since a similar NBC/WSJ poll conducted after the first Democratic debate in late June.

Among those polled, about 70% of Democratic primary voters said they are enthusiastic about or comfortable with Warren, compared to about 64% who had similar thoughts about Biden. That's a significant decrease for Biden, however, as he had 73% of likely voters who said they were enthusiastic or comfortable with him in March, according to the poll.

Also, about 62% polled said they were enthusiastic about or comfortable with Sanders, as some 37% said they had some reservations about him or were uncomfortable with him. That uneasiness with Sanders is higher compared to 35% for Biden and 21% for Warren.

The poll also shows that among likely voters' combined first and second choice for president, Warren was at 45% (a 13-point increase since the NBC/WSJ July poll), compared to Biden at 41% and Sanders with 29%. Buttigieg came in fourth with 19%. Meanwhile, Harris came in fifth with 14%, a 14-point decrease since the July poll.

https://fortune.com/2019/09/18/elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-polls/

mrussel1

dignin said:

Warren Closes In on Biden in New Democratic Poll

While Biden collected 31% of Democratic primary voters in the poll released Tuesday, Warren was closing in on the top spot with 25%. Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, the only other candidate in double digits, came in third with 14% in the poll that was conducted shortly after the Dems' third debate in Houston last week.

Rounding out the top five was South Bend, Ind., Mayor Pete Buttigieg with 7% and California Senator Kamala Harris with 5%. And although Buttigieg didn't lose ground, Harris fell back 8 points since a similar NBC/WSJ poll conducted after the first Democratic debate in late June.

Among those polled, about 70% of Democratic primary voters said they are enthusiastic about or comfortable with Warren, compared to about 64% who had similar thoughts about Biden. That's a significant decrease for Biden, however, as he had 73% of likely voters who said they were enthusiastic or comfortable with him in March, according to the poll.

Also, about 62% polled said they were enthusiastic about or comfortable with Sanders, as some 37% said they had some reservations about him or were uncomfortable with him. That uneasiness with Sanders is higher compared to 35% for Biden and 21% for Warren.

The poll also shows that among likely voters' combined first and second choice for president, Warren was at 45% (a 13-point increase since the NBC/WSJ July poll), compared to Biden at 41% and Sanders with 29%. Buttigieg came in fourth with 19%. Meanwhile, Harris came in fifth with 14%, a 14-point decrease since the July poll.

https://fortune.com/2019/09/18/elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-polls/

No real surprises.  I think Biden is pretty much where he was with the last Consult poll, if not a few points higher.  What is becoming increasingly clear is that Sanders is bleeding progressive support to Warren.  I'm sure Sanders has a floor somewhere, which may create a ceiling for Warren.  It will be interesting where the Pete, Harris, Klobuchar voters go after they start to drop out.  Do they go center or left?  I feel like that's where it will be decided.  

josevolution

This country just has to come to grips that it’s not ready to vote a woman in as president ! Warren’s problem is electability...

Halifax2TheMax

josevolution said:

This country just has to come to grips that it’s not ready to vote a woman in as president ! Warren’s problem is electability...

You know who Warren is going to appeal to? Striking GM workers. GM earned $35BB worldwide and $10BB in the US last year, in addition to spending $25BB in stock buy backs. Their CEO earned $20MM last year. And they want their employees to pay more for health care and not allow “temp” workers, who get 3 paid days off a year, to not have a path to full time work. You think “Pocohantas” is going to hurt her in Wisconsin? Somebody claimed she was cooked months ago. She’s surging and running a hell of a campaign.

dignin

mrussel1 said:

dignin said:

Warren Closes In on Biden in New Democratic Poll

While Biden collected 31% of Democratic primary voters in the poll released Tuesday, Warren was closing in on the top spot with 25%. Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, the only other candidate in double digits, came in third with 14% in the poll that was conducted shortly after the Dems' third debate in Houston last week.

Rounding out the top five was South Bend, Ind., Mayor Pete Buttigieg with 7% and California Senator Kamala Harris with 5%. And although Buttigieg didn't lose ground, Harris fell back 8 points since a similar NBC/WSJ poll conducted after the first Democratic debate in late June.

Among those polled, about 70% of Democratic primary voters said they are enthusiastic about or comfortable with Warren, compared to about 64% who had similar thoughts about Biden. That's a significant decrease for Biden, however, as he had 73% of likely voters who said they were enthusiastic or comfortable with him in March, according to the poll.

Also, about 62% polled said they were enthusiastic about or comfortable with Sanders, as some 37% said they had some reservations about him or were uncomfortable with him. That uneasiness with Sanders is higher compared to 35% for Biden and 21% for Warren.

The poll also shows that among likely voters' combined first and second choice for president, Warren was at 45% (a 13-point increase since the NBC/WSJ July poll), compared to Biden at 41% and Sanders with 29%. Buttigieg came in fourth with 19%. Meanwhile, Harris came in fifth with 14%, a 14-point decrease since the July poll.

https://fortune.com/2019/09/18/elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-polls/

No real surprises.  I think Biden is pretty much where he was with the last Consult poll, if not a few points higher.  What is becoming increasingly clear is that Sanders is bleeding progressive support to Warren.  I'm sure Sanders has a floor somewhere, which may create a ceiling for Warren.  It will be interesting where the Pete, Harris, Klobuchar voters go after they start to drop out.  Do they go center or left?  I feel like that's where it will be decided.  

I agree. But I think there is also momentum building for Warren among almost all democrats, even Biden supporters. There is a wildcard factor there I think.

dignin

Halifax2TheMax said:

josevolution said:

This country just has to come to grips that it’s not ready to vote a woman in as president ! Warren’s problem is electability...

You know who Warren is going to appeal to? Striking GM workers. GM earned $35BB worldwide and $10BB in the US last year, in addition to spending $25BB in stock buy backs. Their CEO earned $20MM last year. And they want their employees to pay more for health care and not allow “temp” workers, who get 3 paid days off a year, to not have a path to full time work. You think “Pocohantas” is going to hurt her in Wisconsin? Somebody claimed she was cooked months ago. She’s surging and running a hell of a campaign.

This.

mrussel1

dignin said:

mrussel1 said:

dignin said:

Warren Closes In on Biden in New Democratic Poll

While Biden collected 31% of Democratic primary voters in the poll released Tuesday, Warren was closing in on the top spot with 25%. Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, the only other candidate in double digits, came in third with 14% in the poll that was conducted shortly after the Dems' third debate in Houston last week.

Rounding out the top five was South Bend, Ind., Mayor Pete Buttigieg with 7% and California Senator Kamala Harris with 5%. And although Buttigieg didn't lose ground, Harris fell back 8 points since a similar NBC/WSJ poll conducted after the first Democratic debate in late June.

Among those polled, about 70% of Democratic primary voters said they are enthusiastic about or comfortable with Warren, compared to about 64% who had similar thoughts about Biden. That's a significant decrease for Biden, however, as he had 73% of likely voters who said they were enthusiastic or comfortable with him in March, according to the poll.

Also, about 62% polled said they were enthusiastic about or comfortable with Sanders, as some 37% said they had some reservations about him or were uncomfortable with him. That uneasiness with Sanders is higher compared to 35% for Biden and 21% for Warren.

The poll also shows that among likely voters' combined first and second choice for president, Warren was at 45% (a 13-point increase since the NBC/WSJ July poll), compared to Biden at 41% and Sanders with 29%. Buttigieg came in fourth with 19%. Meanwhile, Harris came in fifth with 14%, a 14-point decrease since the July poll.

https://fortune.com/2019/09/18/elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-polls/

No real surprises.  I think Biden is pretty much where he was with the last Consult poll, if not a few points higher.  What is becoming increasingly clear is that Sanders is bleeding progressive support to Warren.  I'm sure Sanders has a floor somewhere, which may create a ceiling for Warren.  It will be interesting where the Pete, Harris, Klobuchar voters go after they start to drop out.  Do they go center or left?  I feel like that's where it will be decided.  

I agree. But I think there is also momentum building for Warren among almost all democrats, even Biden supporters. There is a wildcard factor there I think.

Yes she seems to be building momentum. Although the Fox poll from yesterday was surprising where she was down 4 points and behind Bernie.  I think that might be an outlier poll again though.  It's time to friggin' vote already.

ikiT

They need someone under 60 on the ticket.  

mcgruff10

What happened to Kamala Harris? https://apple.news/A6bIwEuQ6RwO35vQVcq8a_Q

mrussel1

mcgruff10 said:

What happened to Kamala Harris? https://apple.news/A6bIwEuQ6RwO35vQVcq8a_Q

The media gets it wrong.  This quote is what happened.  

...telling her personal story powerfully even while effectively exposing Joe Biden's weakness over his record on busing. She was in command, comfortable on the stage, presidential....

She followed up her attack by basically mimicking Bidens position and Democrats realized that busing was not a winning issue.  Cillizza, in this article,  claims it was weak 2nd and 3rd debate.  But her free fall started a week after the first debate when voters realized it eased disingenuous.  

My opinion. 

mcgruff10

Former Rep. Beto O’Rourke’s support for confiscating Americans’ firearms doesn’t appear to have helped buoy the Texas Democrat’s presidential campaign, according to a poll published Tuesday.

O’Rourke struggled to maintain 2% of the vote in a Wall Street Journal poll conducted Sept. 13-16 of 506 Democratic primary voters. His numbers didn’t change much since July, when the former lawmakers pulled in only 1% support.

The numbers come after the Sept. 12 Democratic debate in which O’Rourke assured viewers that he would indeed make a play for semi-automatic rifles. “Hell yes we are going to take your AR-15, your AK-47,” he said to applause from those who attended the debate in Houston.

O’Rourke began promoting the position in early September after another mass shooting in Texas left several dead in El Paso. 

“I see us working with gun owners, non-gun owners, local, county, state, federal law enforcement to come up with the best possible solution. I have yet to meet an owner of an AR-15 who thinks it’s OK that we have these kind of mass killings in this country,” the 46-year-old told reporters in a Sept. 9 interview.

Tuesday’s poll also showed a bump for former Vice President Joe Biden, who is running neck and neck with Sens. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts and Bernie Sanders of Vermont. Biden leads the horserace with backing from 31% of Democratic primary voters, while Warren gets 25 percent.

JimmyV

ikiT said:

They need someone under 60 on the ticket.  

Yes.

jeffbr

mrussel1 said:

mcgruff10 said:

What happened to Kamala Harris? https://apple.news/A6bIwEuQ6RwO35vQVcq8a_Q

The media gets it wrong.  This quote is what happened.  

...telling her personal story powerfully even while effectively exposing Joe Biden's weakness over his record on busing. She was in command, comfortable on the stage, presidential....

She followed up her attack by basically mimicking Bidens position and Democrats realized that busing was not a winning issue.  Cillizza, in this article,  claims it was weak 2nd and 3rd debate.  But her free fall started a week after the first debate when voters realized it eased disingenuous.  

My opinion. 

I think that's true. I also think Tulsi Gabbard nuked her on her criminal justice record. As a prosecutor nothing in Harris' record remotely resembled the progressive she's tried to paint herself as. Death penalty, wrongful convictions, a hard on for convicting marijuana offenses, apparently ignored cases of clergy abuse. It wasn't a good look for her.

mrussel1

jeffbr said:

mrussel1 said:

mcgruff10 said:

What happened to Kamala Harris? https://apple.news/A6bIwEuQ6RwO35vQVcq8a_Q

The media gets it wrong.  This quote is what happened.  

...telling her personal story powerfully even while effectively exposing Joe Biden's weakness over his record on busing. She was in command, comfortable on the stage, presidential....

She followed up her attack by basically mimicking Bidens position and Democrats realized that busing was not a winning issue.  Cillizza, in this article,  claims it was weak 2nd and 3rd debate.  But her free fall started a week after the first debate when voters realized it eased disingenuous.  

My opinion. 

I think that's true. I also think Tulsi Gabbard nuked her on her criminal justice record. As a prosecutor nothing in Harris' record remotely resembled the progressive she's tried to paint herself as. Death penalty, wrongful convictions, a hard on for convicting marijuana offenses, apparently ignored cases of clergy abuse. It wasn't a good look for her.

Agree on that too.  I think that was the second debate.  I remember thinking that was retribution for Biden.  

JimmyV

jeffbr said:

mrussel1 said:

mcgruff10 said:

What happened to Kamala Harris? https://apple.news/A6bIwEuQ6RwO35vQVcq8a_Q

The media gets it wrong.  This quote is what happened.  

...telling her personal story powerfully even while effectively exposing Joe Biden's weakness over his record on busing. She was in command, comfortable on the stage, presidential....

She followed up her attack by basically mimicking Bidens position and Democrats realized that busing was not a winning issue.  Cillizza, in this article,  claims it was weak 2nd and 3rd debate.  But her free fall started a week after the first debate when voters realized it eased disingenuous.  

My opinion. 

I think that's true. I also think Tulsi Gabbard nuked her on her criminal justice record. As a prosecutor nothing in Harris' record remotely resembled the progressive she's tried to paint herself as. Death penalty, wrongful convictions, a hard on for convicting marijuana offenses, apparently ignored cases of clergy abuse. It wasn't a good look for her.

The marijuana thing is wild to me. It just seems like an idea whose time came a while ago, particularly in California. 

Spiritual_Chaos

https://youtu.be/9Yiga2dDysQ